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Siguy
11-25-2012, 10:25 AM
Would it be silly to buy a pair of, say, Dayton B652s, remove the drivers from the enclosure, and mount them in a set of those Metra 6x9 mounting brackets?

Of course, they wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do in their wooden cabinets, but would they sound comparable to, or better than, a $50 pair of 6x9s?

West
11-25-2012, 10:47 AM
You are thinking about switching speakers which are designed to operate in an encloser to an open air environment. $10.00 says that you will not be pleased and wished you kept the speakers in their original enclosures...

TaylorFade
11-25-2012, 10:49 AM
Good lord. Almosyt ANYthing will sound better than a pair of $50 6x9's. Ugh.

Look at some JBL coax if you mut have speakers back there.

West
11-25-2012, 10:50 AM
I have been curious to see how bookselfs would sound in the car if you just put the encloser up in the rear stage :) and velcroed it down.

TaylorFade
11-25-2012, 10:58 AM
I have been curious to see how bookselfs would sound in the car if you just put the encloser up in the rear stage :) and velcroed it down.

I like it. And have done it. Lol.

Actually... the drivers are fine. It's not the worst idea. I see DIY'ers repurposing them all the time. Especially the tweeters with waveguides.

West
11-25-2012, 11:01 AM
I like it. And have done it. Lol.

Actually... the drivers are fine. It's not the worst idea. I see DIY'ers repurposing them all the time. Especially the tweeters with waveguides.

The tweeter idea should be good. :) I may try this at some point lol.

Siguy
11-25-2012, 01:29 PM
Good lord. Almosyt ANYthing will sound better than a pair of $50 6x9's. Ugh.

Look at some JBL coax if you mut have speakers back there.

What's so terrible about 6x9's?

And how would the Dayton drivers outside their proper enclosure compare to a cheap set of 5.25 or 6.5'' components?

Siguy
11-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Agh, help, I'm so confused. I'm trying to compare $50 6.5'' components to $50 6x9'' coaxials, to parts-express woofers, to repurposed bookshelf speakers, to custom woofer/tweeter combinations, etc. etc. etc... and I just can't understand what gives me the best sound quality and value for the money. I could fit practically anything in the 6x9 spaces, which makes it all the more difficult. Is a $15 woofer on Parts-Express actually better quality than the woofers in a $30 pair of speakers? Or is it the same quality as a $10 replacement dual-cone speaker from an auto parts store? Do the cheapest DIY speakers actually sound better than equivalent-priced car speakers? Is there a completely different standard of "good quality" between car audio and home audio enthusiasts?

zako
11-26-2012, 11:26 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the rear speakers. If you need them, get a coaxial speaker (or comps) that fit in the factory location.

After having read the review and test of B652s on John Krutke's web site as well as on a few other forums, I think it's silly to buy them point. Much less for car application. If you take the speakers out of the box, then their low end extension will go out of window as the box is normally designed to extend a speaker's low end. With B652 you get a set of drivers, each of which should cost no more than $5 in retail, and a cheaply made box with high resonances and so so crossovers. Not every parts express Dayton product is high end. People mostly like the Reference series woofers, tweeters, and speakers, as they're very good for the money, although hardly the best overall.

-01limited-
11-26-2012, 11:47 PM
You get what you pay for. Go for the cheap speakers, you're gonna get cheap sound. No way around it, you gotta pay to play in this hobby.

Siguy
11-27-2012, 12:20 AM
You get what you pay for. Go for the cheap speakers, you're gonna get cheap sound. No way around it, you gotta pay to play in this hobby.
Well yes, but I guess I'm just wondering whether you get the most value out of speakers specifically designed for car audio, or if there are advantages to building your own from parts. Say I were to buy woofers and tweeters, and assemble my own passive crossovers. If I spent, say, $75 on all the parts I need, would I have something that sounded as good or better than a $75 car-audio component set?

Basically, are car audio speakers marked up because of packaging/marketing? Or do they have the advantage of mass production?

Another example is, I bought a pair of Dayton Reference full-range speakers for my Dashboard for about $60. Do they sound better than a $60 3.5'' coaxial pair because they're meant as audiophile-grade parts for hi-fi use? Or do the coaxials sound better because they're more "complete" by having tweeters?

VWBobby
11-27-2012, 12:55 AM
Go to a car stereo shop and try out many sets of speakers. Let your ears be the judge. Don't be afraid to crank it up and try a few types of music or different head units and amps to test for sound quality differences.

I see so much misinformation or downright WRONG information on this site, its pathetic. I have some $70 Alpine 6x9's in one vehicle that sound every bit as good as a $200 set of components. I have heard literally 100's of speakers to compare... Like I said, your ears should decide before price or spec sheets. I have heard $900 Focals that sound no better than sets running $250...

Siguy
11-27-2012, 10:57 AM
Go to a car stereo shop and try out many sets of speakers. Let your ears be the judge. Don't be afraid to crank it up and try a few types of music or different head units and amps to test for sound quality differences.

I see so much misinformation or downright WRONG information on this site, its pathetic. I have some $70 Alpine 6x9's in one vehicle that sound every bit as good as a $200 set of components. I have heard literally 100's of speakers to compare... Like I said, your ears should decide before price or spec sheets. I have heard $900 Focals that sound no better than sets running $250...
I have trouble discerning sound quality from speaker displays... They're set up differently than how they'd be in my car, and just listening to radio doesn't offer much to compare. Not to mention background noise and other distractions... Also, the only car audio store nearby is rather pricey, and somewhat disappointingly staffed by people my own age, rather than middle-aged, snobby audiophiles. I asked the guy there to listen to my audio system and see if he thought anything needed improvement. His response was basically "Nope, sounds good to me."

I know my stereo sounds good. Great, even. I just know it could use some improvement. My ears are very sensitive, but they often identify things that are somewhat beyond my experience level... For example, seeing a graph of the Dayon RS100-4 frequency response, I didn't really pay attention to the little 13-15khz peak, because it didn't appear significant. Well, after listening to them I realized I could hear it clear as a bell.* Albeit SPL is a logarithmic scale, but I still didn't expect it to be too consequential for how narrow it seemed. Now I'm considering building a notch filter to tame it. But I'm going to need to teach myself how to do that.

And, in general, I've just not heard very many different setups to compare. Few people I know have good audio equipment. I've been using computer speakers for years. We didn't have a home-theater setup until I found some floorstanding speakers on Craigslist recently. (Which are by far the best speakers I've ever owned)

Back to the original subject. If I were to buy regular 6x9 car speakers, and on a budget, am I better off with dual cone, or cheap-o multiway coaxial? The pricing makes no sense. You'd think a dual cone would be cheapest, 2-way slightly more, 3-way more, 4-way, etc... But it seems to be completely random and I can't really fathom how a 5-way speaker costing $25 can sound like anything but a chorus of tinny cell phones going off. I guess my thinking is that there must be a dual-cone speaker that's as well made as more expensive speakers, but just not as fancy. Like maybe these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PowerStream-PS69DC-6-x9-Dual-Cone-275-Watt-4-Ohm-Extended-Range-Speakers-100dB-/261134506289?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item3cccd45931)are better than Boss or Dual, since they're not pretending to be something more than what they are?

Also, $900 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Pioneer-Dual-Cone-Speakers-6-x9-120W-Max-TS-693P-XL-UC-1-Pair-NIB-/221156371002?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item337df26a3a). What?

*or as a crisp spring morning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa19-c1R_Qg&feature=player_detailpage#t=328s)

keep_hope_alive
11-27-2012, 01:58 PM
you are fine running some Dayton Reference in the rears, 6.5" woofers would be fine. you won't hear much of a bass difference between rear speakers as long as their frequency response is similar. midbass response you hear is different than what the speaker is capable of. factory rear deck speakers seal against the cover panel, and that cover panel acts as the front baffle for the speaker system (since the metal has holes in it). seals are vital for midbass performance.

i don't run coax in the rear - you don't want/need high frequencies behind you.

i also have the RS100's but i run a separate tweeter (in spheres) so they don't have to play above 10k.

zako
11-27-2012, 03:37 PM
Well yes, but I guess I'm just wondering whether you get the most value out of speakers specifically designed for car audio, or if there are advantages to building your own from parts. Say I were to buy woofers and tweeters, and assemble my own passive crossovers. If I spent, say, $75 on all the parts I need, would I have something that sounded as good or better than a $75 car-audio component set?


I don't know if it's possible at $70. A couple of Dayton RSS woofers and tweeters already will cost twice that much, and this is the good Dayton line. Perhaps you would have to use Dayton Classic line of woofers to meet the budget. In the end, I think it's kind of a pointless exercise as a set of $70 can be vastly improved upon with a little higher budget.

Repurposing home audio speakers for car is not always easy. One issue with Dayton RSS woofers is that the 6 inch or bigger version will not play will above 2KHz without break-up, so you need a relatively high performance tweeter, but a high performace Dayton tweeter will be a "large format" tweeter, so it won't fit in factory locations and will need some custom work. In addition, some people take issue with taking a crossover between woofer and tweeter so low.



Basically, are car audio speakers marked up because of packaging/marketing? Or do they have the advantage of mass production?


No!

Car audio speakers give you the following things:

4ohm impedance (usually)
Small format tweeter
Woofer with resonable mounting depth (usually)
Woofer plays higher frequencies than a lot of home audio speakers
Woofer optimized for best performance IB installation (in door)

You can find very good home audio speakers, but you will have to do some work to make them work well in car. First thing, it make be a good idea to run them with an active crossover.



Another example is, I bought a pair of Dayton Reference full-range speakers for my Dashboard for about $60. Do they sound better than a $60 3.5'' coaxial pair because they're meant as audiophile-grade parts for hi-fi use? Or do the coaxials sound better because they're more "complete" by having tweeters?

Some people prefer using full range mid-ranges in a 2-way setup or small midranges combined with a tweeter in a 3-way setup. On important issue about using a full range speaker is that it should be on axis. This is because the bigger the speaker diameter the worse is the dispersion of higher frequencies. This is no problem with a lot of tweeters, since the diameter is usually just one inch, but a 2-4 inch speaker needs to be aimed more carefully and/or tuned with equalizer. So a coaxial speaker may or may not sound better, but it will have better dispersion off axis.