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View Full Version : Z v.4 10" Prototype : 2nd Woofer New Parts



sundownz
11-05-2012, 01:29 PM
The 10" is done and drying; should be able to play tomorrow. I'll be a tad more careful this time *laughs* Of course I should be safe with the 8 3/8" spider vs. the 9 1/4" on the 12" model as I shouldn't be able to reach quite the level of throw!

This is the first 10" woofer with 3" coil that I've built that I didn't hate every second of... gives me a good feeling and I cannot wait to test it !

http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/New_Frames_2012/Zv4_10_Built/CIMG6663.JPG

http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/New_Frames_2012/Zv4_10_Built/CIMG6664.JPG

http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/New_Frames_2012/Zv4_10_Built/CIMG6665.JPG
* Left to right : Z v.4 10 / Z v.4 12 / Z v.3 12

http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/New_Frames_2012/Zv4_10_Built/CIMG6666.JPG

http://www.sundownaudio.com/misc/protos/New_Frames_2012/Zv4_10_Built/CIMG6667.JPG

Dtrom
11-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Good lord.

The_Grimy_One
11-05-2012, 01:41 PM
Omg.

dbjunior
11-05-2012, 01:42 PM
That's what my tens should look like I need these new parts. I hate the 12 spoke 10 basket and my surrounds are ripping but the motor has so much more left.

sundownz
11-05-2012, 01:45 PM
That's what my tens should look like I need these new parts. I hate the 12 spoke 10 basket and my surrounds are ripping but the motor has so much more left.

Indeed... the 10" 12-spoke, 4-spoke, and even 10" Ti frames (15/18 rock and the 12 is quite good) are really not to my liking. I've always HATED making 10s with 3" coil until now :)

04murdalanche
11-05-2012, 01:53 PM
le beef

Slayerx
11-05-2012, 02:02 PM
:crazy:

Screnzo
11-05-2012, 02:10 PM
That surround is fatter than my momma. :fyi:

More beef than a cow. :fyi:

Will be interested to see how this turns out...may switch from a 12 ported to 3 10's seald....these would be pimp.

garretttt4
11-05-2012, 04:50 PM
Holy free holy.

gckless
11-05-2012, 04:57 PM
So purty.

timma100
11-05-2012, 07:58 PM
It didn't hit me on how big of a change this was until I saw the v.3.. I was considering picking up used v.3 12s for my car. These pictures just changed my mind :) Awesome work, I can't wait to see some on the meter vs the v.3. What is the motor force difference between v.3 and v.4?

jockhater2
11-05-2012, 08:02 PM
if this is the z series. what the fvck is the nightshade going to look like?

skylineTT
11-05-2012, 08:14 PM
Lol, I want to see that new 1kW series that I want to buy. ;)

myjaja
11-05-2012, 08:53 PM
last but not least, the new sundown nightshade!

http://i45.tinypic.com/25jaa90.jpg

timma100
11-05-2012, 11:47 PM
if this is the z series. what the fvck is the nightshade going to look like?

Dude I know, I just wonder what size spider the 18"s will have.. If a 12 has a 9 1/4.. I know it wont be massive. But still, imho its the first big change up in a long long time.. I cant wait to see what they can do.

Dtrom
11-05-2012, 11:54 PM
In for nightshade v3/Zv4 comparison pic.

Phoenix Risen
11-05-2012, 11:57 PM
^^^ me too. i want to know if there will be a nightshade 10 with the new parts...

sundownz
11-06-2012, 07:31 AM
^^^ me too. i want to know if there will be a nightshade 10 with the new parts...

Theoretically the motor will fit in the hole if it's cut perfect as our cut-out is just @ the motor size of the NS v.3 (250mm) -- but speaker wires won't fit unless you notch the hole. I may consider offering them.

I have an early NS v.3 motor but based on testing of the new frames I need to add more clearance to it -- and I will be offering a HUGE array of options for it that we've never done before (all functional to tailor it to various apps).

matt_bennett05
11-06-2012, 08:24 AM
I really would like to get my hands on that 10"... Really, really, really.... really.










REALLY.

Phoenix Risen
11-06-2012, 09:11 AM
Theoretically the motor will fit in the hole if it's cut perfect as our cut-out is just @ the motor size of the NS v.3 (250mm) -- but speaker wires won't fit unless you notch the hole. I may consider offering them.

I have an early NS v.3 motor but based on testing of the new frames I need to add more clearance to it -- and I will be offering a HUGE array of options for it that we've never done before (all functional to tailor it to various apps).

that would be pretty sick, and that says a lot about those baskets with what that v.3 motor was doing when you tested it before...

sundownz
11-06-2012, 12:59 PM
My camera was dead this morning -- charged it up and took this video over lunch today:

Z v.4 10" Model Prototype Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6Owlh2hF0)

skylineTT
11-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Can you do a giveaway and choose me?

dbjunior
11-06-2012, 05:41 PM
How large of a dustcap can you fit inside the surround.

Popwarhomie
11-06-2012, 05:45 PM
Drool :yumyum:

gckless
11-06-2012, 05:49 PM
It's gonna be like a Black Friday in a Walmart when these are released....

timma100
11-06-2012, 08:33 PM
My camera was dead this morning -- charged it up and took this video over lunch today:

Z v.4 10" Model Prototype Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6Owlh2hF0)

O_O my bozak, it tingles with desire.. I had planned to run 2 12"s on a 3500, but with that new uhh "power handling" I just might need an old 4500.. or **** it.. I bet an NS1 wouldn't hurt 2 @1ohm

SPLaudio
11-09-2012, 12:37 PM
wow ya went blair witch on the first part of the vid, my eyes hurt,lol.

it looks good Jake. ur rite the ti is a nice basket the prob is where the holes are for terms or direct leads ****!

keep_hope_alive
11-09-2012, 10:33 PM
Amazing

myjaja
11-09-2012, 10:43 PM
reminds me of the earthquake holees

sundownz
11-20-2012, 12:10 PM
Got the 10" Z v.4 motor charged up to run specs on it -- so here we are (D2 coil) :

RE : 3.42 (series)
Fs : 29.4 Hz
Qes : 0.324
Qms : 4.61
Qts : 0.302
Le : 3.68 mH
Sd : 366 cm^2
BL : 24.85 NA
Mms : 316 g
Cms : 92.41 uM/N
Sens : 83.16 dB - 1w/1m
BL^2/RE : 180.56

For production the top plate ID is going to move OUT a bit (wider gap) to prevent damage in the case of excessive excursion (which is how I damaged the 12" prototype) -- this will reduce BL by a small margin but the Z v.4 motor force factor is still in excess of the v.3 version so it's a non-issue :)

All in all I think these specs are on target with what customers want -- compared to the v.3 we have :

1) Lower FS in stock format
2) Higher motor force
3) Higher thermal power handling (v.3 10/12 use a shorter coil than 15/18 -- v.4 use the same 15/18 coil in all sizes)
4) Higher mechanical power handling and thus more forgiveness of larger boxes (current 10s are very picky on small boxes)

So I think folks will be extremely pleased when these hit the market.

JoeK
11-20-2012, 12:15 PM
Got the 10" Z v.4 motor charged up to run specs on it -- so here we are (D2 coil) :

RE : 3.42 (series)
Fs : 29.4 Hz
Qes : 0.324
Qms : 4.61
Qts : 0.302
Le : 3.68 mH
Sd : 366 cm^2
BL : 24.85 NA
Mms : 316 g
Cms : 92.41 uM/N
Sens : 83.16 dB - 1w/1m
BL^2/RE : 180.56

For production the top plate ID is going to move OUT a bit (wider gap) to prevent damage in the case of excessive excursion (which is how I damaged the 12" prototype) -- this will reduce BL by a small margin but the Z v.4 motor force factor is still in excess of the v.3 version so it's a non-issue :)

All in all I think these specs are on target with what customers want -- compared to the v.3 we have :

1) Lower FS in stock format
2) Higher motor force
3) Higher thermal power handling (v.3 10/12 use a shorter coil than 15/18 -- v.4 use the same 15/18 coil in all sizes)
4) Higher mechanical power handling and thus more forgiveness of larger boxes (current 10s are very picky on small boxes)

So I think folks will be extremely pleased when these hit the market.

29hz Fs? What the hell lol

sundownz
11-20-2012, 12:19 PM
Yep; with the popular of "ultra low" frequency music should do nicely :)

We'll have numerous spider options on custom-built units as well to tailor to other needs.

bdawson72
11-20-2012, 12:22 PM
Nice!

dbjunior
11-20-2012, 12:22 PM
That's a heavy 10 mms. How stiff is the suspension and are they the same 8 3/8 spiders as before or higher roll for more excursion.

JoeK
11-20-2012, 12:41 PM
Yep; with the popular of "ultra low" frequency music should do nicely :)

We'll have numerous spider options on custom-built units as well to tailor to other needs.

What kind of fs are expecting on 12/15s?

mat3833
11-20-2012, 12:51 PM
im mailing my good kidney(the one that hasnt had kidney stones), my left arm, and my right testicle tomorrow. ill PM you my mailing address so you can hook me up with a pair of the 10's and an amp for each.

seriously tho, do you take organs as payment?

Matt

sundownz
11-20-2012, 12:51 PM
I may put a bit more stiffness into the surrounds as well -- and for the low FS junkies I'll still be able to put on a spider from the "X" line which is one layer fewer than a "Z" line spider. This way the FS won't change so drastically in "stock" format but we can still tailor it in either direction (it would still be lower than the v.3 models, of course, just not such a HUGE change).

sundownz
11-20-2012, 01:01 PM
What kind of fs are expecting on 12/15s?

As we scale up it will drop on each size.

I am still in the realm of tweaking the surround material to get it to land where I want it to.

Across the board we will see a drop from the current Z v.3 models, though.

Either way as I build the other sizes I'll put up the initial specs.

sundownz
11-20-2012, 01:07 PM
That's a heavy 10 mms. How stiff is the suspension and are they the same 8 3/8 spiders as before or higher roll for more excursion.

From Above -- Cms : 92.41 uM/N = suspension stiffness

It's significantly looser than any current Z v.3 model

These are the Z v.3 15" model spiders exactly -- it is already capable of doing what it needs to do without any modifications. The v.4 12" then uses the Z v.3 18" spider -- and the v.3 15 and 18 use a new, even larger, tooling.

jaeguerra909
11-25-2012, 04:59 PM
**** jacob finnaly a low fs woofer im loving it this makes me want to do a high powered dual 12" sub set up now

Fi-brations
11-25-2012, 05:19 PM
mother of god, when are these scheduled to come out?

VisceralSound
11-25-2012, 05:25 PM
mother of god, when are these scheduled to come out?
1st Quarter of 2013 iirc.

-BenBen-
11-25-2012, 05:58 PM
I def. want 2 of the 12s..ill dump these ab xfl 12s in a heart beat for those monsters..

Thumpersplbassx
11-27-2012, 11:34 PM
I'll need a few of the 10's or 12's for my secret project I'm planning.

chargdbassbuick
12-03-2012, 04:03 PM
My camera was dead this morning -- charged it up and took this video over lunch today:

Z v.4 10" Model Prototype Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6Owlh2hF0)

interested in selling any z v4 prototypes when done???

Thumpersplbassx
12-03-2012, 06:21 PM
I'll take 4 and see what they can do.

mat3833
12-09-2012, 09:56 PM
with a surround that big, how much effective cone area are you loosing out on? i kno the extra Xmax probobly makes up for it, but for some reason it looks like the surround is too big. lol

Matt

sundownz
12-09-2012, 10:07 PM
Got the 10" Z v.4 motor charged up to run specs on it -- so here we are (D2 coil) :
Sd : 366 cm^2



with a surround that big, how much effective cone area are you loosing out on? i kno the extra Xmax probobly makes up for it, but for some reason it looks like the surround is too big. lol

Matt

On the 10" model there is equal and/or slightly greater SD than most 10s depending on the calculation method as the 10" frame is slightly over-sized.

On the other sizes there is a ~10% difference.

mat3833
12-09-2012, 10:18 PM
gotcha. thats what i thought after looking at the Sd spec. too bad you cant do a surround like the W7. ive always loved that look, and you gain piston area with that method. doesnt JL have that patented tho?

Matt

edit: also whats the Xmax on these suckers?

blobb454
12-09-2012, 10:20 PM
Wholly ****!:awesome: When are these available?? I'd love to have a 10! Any info on availability? Release dates? Or if I could just buy the prototype? Lol

sundownz
12-10-2012, 08:05 AM
gotcha. thats what i thought after looking at the Sd spec. too bad you cant do a surround like the W7. ive always loved that look, and you gain piston area with that method. doesnt JL have that patented tho?

Matt

edit: also whats the Xmax on these suckers?

JL does have a patent on their surround method; it is cool but I've always thought it opens up too much possibility of end-user error. Knowledgeable folks would have no problem at all but I'd worry about beginners.

Linear x-max by 70% BL is in the high 20s (I will be getting Klippel done on a Z v.4 to verify FEA predictions) -- we can get the coil to 47.5mm in the physical gap -- and I've moved it up to ~60mm into the fringe field (not a good idea). We are using alot of the excess suspension capacity as a safety zone in the current driver / coil setups being displayed -- I will have a "super excursion" coil option available for the Z v.4 and NS v.3 that will get you into the mid to high 30s linear but does eat away at the safety net and, naturally, has a higher MMS and inductance. This coil would be capable of 55mm in the physical gap and would also bottom out at 55mm (longer coil leaves less room in the motor).




---------- Post added at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 AM ----------


Wholly ****!:awesome: When are these available?? I'd love to have a 10! Any info on availability? Release dates? Or if I could just buy the prototype? Lol

ETA and pricing are yet to be announced.

Phoenix Risen
12-20-2012, 03:12 AM
I'm deffently going to be getting a pair of the 10's with the super excursion coils for my mmats 4k to play with.

tdford5
12-20-2012, 03:36 AM
u take trade ins jacob id trade in my v3's for a set of them v4's lol

Durango03
12-20-2012, 04:48 AM
well, it looks like I now have 4 vvx-12's for sale! haha