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View Full Version : Door and dash speakers- Coaxials? Components? What do I do?



Siguy
10-08-2012, 01:36 PM
I've got a '96 Saab 900SE for which I want to upgrade the audio. The stock head unit hooks up via a proprietary DIN connector to a crappy 17-watt amplifier, which powers low-range 6.5'' door speakers. The dashboard, meanwhile, has 3.5'' mid/high range speakers. There are also some 6x9s in the rear. The door speaker amplifier is dead, and the stock head unit ***** (tape player is even broken!) I'm planning on getting a Kenwood KDC-352U to replace it.

So, anyway, I thought perhaps I could install a component system, and put the midwoofers in the doors and the tweeters on the dashboard. Either power it directly from the head unit, or use a small 2-channel amplifier mounted where the old one was. I was considering a either a Polk DB6501 or Infinity 6030cs.

However, I also noticed that to buy two sets of Polk coaxial speakers, the DB651s and DB351, it would be about the same price as to buy a component system. This makes an amplifier necessary for the 6.5'' speakers, but isn't it better to have 3.5'' dash speakers instead of tweeters? Or does having full range coaxial speakers instead of midwoofers in the door compartment complicate things? I can't seem to find very many 6.5'' midwoofers, except for those included in component sets.

Why So Cereal?
10-08-2012, 04:23 PM
For simplicity, go with a normal 6.5 component set with the tweeters on the dash or pillars.

You could do a 3.5 in the dash but you need a dedicated midbass in the doors. Not another coaxial. You can get some from parts express or madisound. You'll need some sort of crossover though to set the points for the separate midbass.

Depending on how particular u are about your sound...do u just want it sound clean, or are u looking to have it image well and create a sound stage on your dash...you may or may not be up to the whole 3 way front stage and even a properly setup 2 way front can do VERY well.

Siguy
10-08-2012, 09:14 PM
Hmm... When hypothesizing, things starts to get extravagant.

What if I were to put 3.5''s in the dash, and components in the doors? That way I'd have dedicated midwoofers, and tweeters, which I could mount on the pillars or wherever they sounded best. How much better would this 2-way component system + 3.5'' dash speakers sound when compared to the 2-way component system alone?

mylows10
10-08-2012, 09:18 PM
a bit better ,you can also do a 3 way component system too.6.5 subs for the doors , 3.5 mids for the dash and tweets , need a budget tho

Siguy
10-08-2012, 11:17 PM
I don't think I have the budget for a dedicated 3-way component system. I'm thinking, instead, the following: Polk DB6501 components, DB351 dash speakers, and a Rockford Fosgate R125-2 amp. Anyone else have experience with a setup similar to this?

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 09:20 AM
I don't think I have the budget for a dedicated 3-way component system. I'm thinking, instead, the following: Polk DB6501 components, DB351 dash speakers, and a Rockford Fosgate R125-2 amp. Anyone else have experience with a setup similar to this?

You'll have two drivers per side playing the same frequencies which will result in cancellation.

Why not just do one 6.5 component set per side. Plenty of people do it and are just fine. If u wanna use those 3.5 spaces, you're gonna need either a dedicated 3 way set or the ability to run active crossovers and dedicated drivers for midbass,midrange and highs

Siguy
10-09-2012, 01:02 PM
Okay. What if instead, I had just the 3.5'' dash speakers, and 6.5'' midwoofers hooked up with a low-pass filter?

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 01:05 PM
Okay. What if instead, I had just the 3.5'' dash speakers, and 6.5'' midwoofers hooked up with a low-pass filter?

That could work. I ran quasi active for a little while.

Find a 3.5 coaxial u like and a 6.5 woofer. Make sure u have a way of low passing the 6.5 anywhere from about 300-500hz as well as a high pass for it so it doesn't bottom out. You'll also need a high pass for the 3.5s

Siguy
10-09-2012, 01:23 PM
Okay. What's a good 6.5'' 4-ohm woofer?

And would this setup I'm proposing actually offer superior audio to a 2-way component system? Keep in mind that the factory setup is 3.5'' coaxial (but tinny) speakers on the dash, and an amp powering 6.5'' woofers in the doors... The only reason I want to put coaxials rather than tweeters in the dash is because I'm concerned that the acoustics are optimized for it.

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 01:33 PM
Okay. What's a good 6.5'' 4-ohm woofer?

And would this setup I'm proposing actually offer superior audio to a 2-way component system? Keep in mind that the factory setup is 3.5'' coaxial (but tinny) speakers on the dash, and an amp powering 6.5'' woofers in the doors... The only reason I want to put coaxials rather than tweeters in the dash is because I'm concerned that the acoustics are optimized for it.

Budget?

And I would say it has the ability to rival a comp set when setup correctly.

Advantage of coaxs is a point source for midrange and highs which can help with a more natural sound.
Advantage of tweeters more aiming options for diff/better sound and imaging

Siguy
10-09-2012, 01:44 PM
Budget... As low as possible. Under $100 for a pair of midwoofers. Preferably under $50. And if you can recommend better 3.5''s than the Polks, that'd be neat, too, but I liked the look of the Polks.

Anyway, I guess my instinct with 2-way components is that, between a 6.5-inch cone in the midwoofer, and the ~1-inch cone in the tweeter, and with the two being placed several feet apart, there must be something lost in the mid-treble range. I feel like my brain would make the tweeters stand out. Then again, that's just instinct, and I don't have any actual experience in this.

I'm also wondering if I'm going to need to replace the 6x9s in the back somewhere down the line...

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Budget... As low as possible. Under $100 for a pair of midwoofers. Preferably under $50. And if you can recommend better 3.5''s than the Polks, that'd be neat, too, but I liked the look of the Polks.

For the midwoofers, look into Silver Flutes over on madisound.com
For the 3.5s, I've been pretty interested in these lately as budget small coaxials : WoofersEtc.com - KX 87 - Rainbow KX 87 Installer 3.5" Coaxial Speakers (http://www.woofersetc.com/p-7187-kx-87-rainbow-kx-87-installer-35-coaxial-speakers.aspx) or JL Audio C2s (but they tend to have a very smooth sound that some do not like)


Anyway, I guess my instinct with 2-way components is that, between a 6.5-inch cone in the midwoofer, and the ~1-inch cone in the tweeter, and with the two being placed several feet apart, there must be something lost in the mid-treble range. I feel like my brain would make the tweeters stand out. Then again, that's just instinct, and I don't have any actual experience in this.

you're somewhat right in your thinking. Generally having your drivers far apart like that does cause the drivers to be more easily localized. Thats where processing and active crossovers come into play since obviously a car is not an ideal listening environment. You could mount the tweeters close to the woofers but your stage height may suffer....but spreading them out can cause them not to blend as well as u may like.....
You can try different crossover points if you're running actively to see which helps raise the stage the best blend the drivers. There are also some EQ tricks you can try.

Using the mid in the door and the coax on the dash has possible flaws as well. Like windshield reflections. Sometimes these can mangle your imaging, sometimes its fine. If you're looking to get a perfect image and a perfect sound, the best thing u can do is to play around with many options and installs and see what suits you best. I could tell you whats worked for me but we have totally diff cars and ears and equipment.


I'm also wondering if I'm going to need to replace the 6x9s in the back somewhere down the line...

Lets get the fronts up and running first then go on to rears.

Siguy
10-09-2012, 02:16 PM
Are low-cost equalizers a good investment?

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 02:17 PM
Are low-cost equalizers a good investment?

Just wait and get a HU with all the features you need/like.

The Pioneer 80PRS is very nice.

Siguy
10-09-2012, 02:30 PM
Eh. A $350 head unit would be too over my budget... I would get a double-DIN one if I had that much to spend, in any case. Plus I like the Kenwood's vacuum-fluorescent display too much.

Those silver flutes... How would they sound compared to some of the other woofers on that site? I know they have wool cones, but I don't know how that affects the audio.

Smitty
10-09-2012, 02:34 PM
Kenwood X995 $150 shipped

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Those silver flutes... How would they sound compared to some of the other woofers on that site? I know they have wool cones, but I don't know how that affects the audio.

They've been compared to Hybrid Audio L6s which are some top notch woofers. But the Flutes are a lot cheaper. They're some of the best reviewed budget woofers out there. You could also look into Dayton Audio woofers which are aluminum cones IIRC.

The best thing to do is to find a woofer that u like and do a search for reviews on it, especially on diyma.com

Siguy
10-09-2012, 09:11 PM
They've been compared to Hybrid Audio L6s which are some top notch woofers. But the Flutes are a lot cheaper. They're some of the best reviewed budget woofers out there. You could also look into Dayton Audio woofers which are aluminum cones IIRC.

The best thing to do is to find a woofer that u like and do a search for reviews on it, especially on diyma.com
Hmm. I've heard of the Dayton B652 bookshelf speakers described as "audiophile-grade", which is good. But I don't really have a frame of reference for the cones... Where do you find reviews for these sorts of things, anyway? I'm liking the idea of the Flutes, and if the consensus is that they're superior to the Daytons, they definitely seem like a good choice.

Edit: Which Daytons were you referring to, specifically?

Kenwood X995 $150 shipped
Well, since that has an LCD, not a VFD, it kind of defeats my point. I also set a budget cap of ~$95 for the head unit alone.

Why So Cereal?
10-09-2012, 11:27 PM
Hmm. I've heard of the Dayton B652 bookshelf speakers described as "audiophile-grade", which is good. But I don't really have a frame of reference for the cones... Where do you find reviews for these sorts of things, anyway? I'm liking the idea of the Flutes, and if the consensus is that they're superior to the Daytons, they definitely seem like a good choice.

Edit: Which Daytons were you referring to, specifically?



You can find reviews on parts express or on forums like DIYMA.com

I was referring to the Dayton reference line but the designer line is also nice.

Siguy
10-10-2012, 01:02 AM
The Dayton reference line has 6 and 7-inch woofers, but no 6.5-inch ones. I'm assuming the thing to do would be to get the 6-inch and rig some sort of mounting bracket for it?

Why So Cereal?
10-10-2012, 01:03 AM
Or get the 7

Siguy
10-10-2012, 02:46 AM
I'm mostly concerned that the 7'' would be too large for the door speaker compartments... Plus the 7s are $15 more, each. Although I'm still not sure about the Dayton reference vs Silver Flute. I want something that will compliment the 3.5'' dash speakers best.

Edit: It's occurred to me that perhaps neither of them are a good choice... The R.F. amp has a low-pass filter up to 250hz, and the Polk dash coaxials come with 200hz high pass filters... A ~200hz crossover seems more like subwoofer territory... Which means I don't get any strong mids from the door speakers. The Daytons and Flutes seem like they'd be optimized for something like a 2khz crossover... But how would I achieve that? By making my own high and low pass filters?

Edit 2: Wait, I just realized that since the woofers and dash speakers would be on different channels, (woofers powered by amp, dash speakers by head unit) I don't need to worry about that, do I? I could, say, give the woofers a 2khz low-pass filter and the dash speakers a 200hz high-pass filter, and they wouldn't interfere? Or am I failing to understand how multiple channels work...

Why So Cereal?
10-10-2012, 10:22 AM
I'm mostly concerned that the 7'' would be too large for the door speaker compartments... Plus the 7s are $15 more, each. Although I'm still not sure about the Dayton reference vs Silver Flute. I want something that will compliment the 3.5'' dash speakers best.

Edit: It's occurred to me that perhaps neither of them are a good choice... The R.F. amp has a low-pass filter up to 250hz, and the Polk dash coaxials come with 200hz high pass filters... A ~200hz crossover seems more like subwoofer territory... Which means I don't get any strong mids from the door speakers. The Daytons and Flutes seem like they'd be optimized for something like a 2khz crossover... But how would I achieve that? By making my own high and low pass filters?

Edit 2: Wait, I just realized that since the woofers and dash speakers would be on different channels, (woofers powered by amp, dash speakers by head unit) I don't need to worry about that, do I? I could, say, give the woofers a 2khz low-pass filter and the dash speakers a 200hz high-pass filter, and they wouldn't interfere? Or am I failing to understand how multiple channels work...

Ok first off 200hz is NOT subwoofer territory. 70hz and below is.

The purpose of running the separate mid up high is to get the phase/driver shift out of the middle of the vocal range. A crossover point of about 250-300hz would be great for that. If you're gonna run the 6.5s all the way up to 2khz, u may as well just do a regular 2 way component set.

Siguy
10-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Ah, yeah, I suppose I don't really have enough experience with this to realize what a 250hz low-pass filter actually sounds like... I also realize I've largely forgotten how logarithms work... I realize now that 250hz should work fine.

I'm still not sure what woofers to get, though, keeping in mind that sub-250hz performance is most important. The Daytons, for example, seem like they have good performance across the low-to-mid section, but if there's others which are cheaper, and still perform just as well at the frequencies I need, then I'd rather go with them. Or if there are some which are even more focused on the bass-end for around the same price.

Also, can crossovers overlap at all? If the low pass filter is set to the aforementioned 250hz, can I use it in conjunction with the 200hz high pass filter?

Why So Cereal?
10-10-2012, 12:12 PM
Ah, yeah, I suppose I don't really have enough experience with this to realize what a 250hz low-pass filter actually sounds like... I also realize I've largely forgotten how logarithms work... I realize now that 250hz should work fine.

I'm still not sure what woofers to get, though, keeping in mind that sub-250hz performance is most important. The Daytons, for example, seem like they have good performance across the low-to-mid section, but if there's others which are cheaper, and still perform just as well at the frequencies I need, then I'd rather go with them. Or if there are some which are even more focused on the bass-end for around the same price.

Also, can crossovers overlap at all? If the low pass filter is set to the aforementioned 250hz, can I use it in conjunction with the 200hz high pass filter?

The absolute best for cheap in those frequencies is the Peerless SLS but its deep and may cost more but well worth it.

Yes they can overlap if they need to. Shouldn't hurt enough to be noticeable

Siguy
10-10-2012, 02:28 PM
Okay, well, I've decided that I really want to get the Dayton RS180-4 woofers. However, reality is kicking in, and I think those are a bit extravagant, at about twice as much as I'd like to spend. Plus, I'm pretty sure there's no way in hell they'd fit in my doors without significant modifications...

I could go with the RS150-4's, but I'm worried they wouldn't be able to output much with their smaller drivers and my low crossover frequency... But how would it compare to some of the other 6.5'' woofers around that price range, such as the Silver Flute, Goldwood, and Dayton "classic"?

And how unhappy would I be if I just bought a $18 pair of Pyramids?

Edit: How about these (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-566)?

Why So Cereal?
10-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Okay, well, I've decided that I really want to get the Dayton RS180-4 woofers. However, reality is kicking in, and I think those are a bit extravagant, at about twice as much as I'd like to spend. Plus, I'm pretty sure there's no way in hell they'd fit in my doors without significant modifications...

I could go with the RS150-4's, but I'm worried they wouldn't be able to output much with their smaller drivers and my low crossover frequency... But how would it compare to some of the other 6.5'' woofers around that price range, such as the Silver Flute, Goldwood, and Dayton "classic"?

And how unhappy would I be if I just bought a $18 pair of Pyramids?

Edit: How about these (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-566)?

Is go with the flutes just bc they review well, will allow u to run a regular 2 way later on if u wish and are right between the 6s and 7s Dayton offers.


I wouldn't spit on Pyramids

And never heard of those others.

Siguy
10-11-2012, 11:52 AM
Based on reviews, and lower cost, I think I'm gonna go with the Dayton DC160-4s. They seem like a good match for my intended crossover frequency, and they're the cheapest of the speakers I've considered. If I ever build a home speaker system, I'm definitely getting some reference-series drivers, or possibly Flutes, though.

One more thing, are the Polk 3.5's going to benefit at all from being amplified? Should I go with a 4-channel amp instead?

The DB352s are rated at 30W RMS, the head unit at 22W RMS.

Of course, the amp is rated at 40W RMS and the DC160's at 60W, so it's a similar difference in rated/supplied power. But I'm not sure how honest the 22W RMS figure for the head unit is.

>>SQL<<
10-11-2012, 08:29 PM
This reminds me of another thread

Full range door speakers? - SaabCentral Forums (http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240681)

Why So Cereal?
10-11-2012, 10:05 PM
Based on reviews, and lower cost, I think I'm gonna go with the Dayton DC160-4s. They seem like a good match for my intended crossover frequency, and they're the cheapest of the speakers I've considered. If I ever build a home speaker system, I'm definitely getting some reference-series drivers, or possibly Flutes, though.

One more thing, are the Polk 3.5's going to benefit at all from being amplified? Should I go with a 4-channel amp instead?

The DB352s are rated at 30W RMS, the head unit at 22W RMS.

Of course, the amp is rated at 40W RMS and the DC160's at 60W, so it's a similar difference in rated/supplied power. But I'm not sure how honest the 22W RMS figure for the head unit is.

Can't hurt to amp them