PDA

View Full Version : Going Active



West
09-04-2012, 04:02 PM
I had a few quick questions about going active. I have an MCC406M comming which is 6 channels (4x50w and 2x100w at 4ohm. Will this be enough power to drive a 3 way active setup for most components like the Legatia SE VI (Stage VI - Legatia SE - The Home of the World's Finest Loudspeakers, and World Championship Car Audio Speaker Systems. (http://hybrid-audio.com/legatiase/)) or Hertz hi energy?

Any other relevant info would be appreicated. And how I should set my gains?

Would the best configuration be:
Tweeter @50w
Mid @50w
Mid/sub @100w

Thanks guys.

Bettr n' Revrse
09-04-2012, 04:07 PM
No super tweet! Mid woofer, mid, tweet... That will probably be fine for power since they are rated at 12 volts as well...

West
09-04-2012, 04:09 PM
No super tweet! Mid woofer, mid, tweet... That will probably be fine for power since they are rated at 12 volts as well...

Shows how much I know about active >.<, Thanks!

Fixed my op...

av83
09-04-2012, 04:13 PM
3 way on your first active setup?


:cool: Respect.

West
09-04-2012, 04:17 PM
3 way on your first active setup?


:cool: Respect.

Appreicate that ^^.
This is gonna destroy my wallet lmao...
Gotta go big or go home at this point. Once this is done, its done, not gonna touch it for a few years...

av83
09-04-2012, 04:27 PM
Appreicate that ^^.
This is gonna destroy my wallet lmao...
Gotta go big or go home at this point. Once this is done, its done, not gonna touch it for a few years...


Lol, i almost put something in that post about not knowing whether to respect or feel sorry for your wallet, as well, lol...

I just went active yesterday, but I did it with some used cdt's i got off here a few months ago. Sounds way more expensive than it was. I have zero doubts now that proper installation>spending loads of cash. ...although spending loads of cash does help.

West
09-04-2012, 04:29 PM
Lol, i almost put something in that post about not knowing whether to respect or feel sorry for your wallet, as well, lol...

I just went active yesterday, but I did it with some used cdt's i got off here a few months ago. Sounds way more expensive than it was. I have zero doubts now that proper installation>spending loads of cash. ...although spending loads of cash does help.

Speakers are the only things I would prefer to buy new. BUT if a tasty set of 3 ways come up on the classifieds I'd snatch em up.

gunz4me2
09-04-2012, 04:57 PM
I'd suggest starting out with a matched set for your first adventure into 3-way active. Something like the Precision Power PC3.65C (http://www.precisionpower.com/html-version/speakers-pc.html) would be a good set to cut your teeth on. Only after you get a knack for messing around with crossover points and coming up with shortcomings you wish to improve upon would I suggest DIYing 3-way plus sub active. A properly set up 3-way active system will easily outperform many 2-way active setups. The only hard thing is setting up the proper 3-way from a DIY, raw driver choice perspective and finding suitable locations for the drivers.

Then again, I spent a lot of time, money, and effort the last time I did a DIY 2 way active set. I went through at least 3 component sets prior to looking at the specs of raw drivers and figuring out what would work in a sealed factory pod and a 6x8 infinite baffle location. Never did I think that a Mach5 Audio MLI-65 mated with a Tang Band W4-1757SB would outperform CDT, Alpine Type R, and Pioneer Premier Components. IMHO the CDT and Type R comps had terrible 6.5" drivers with a so so tweeter. The Pioneer premier components were midbass champions in the Shaker 500 8" pod, but came with a not so great tweeter.

Now, to change it up, going with HAT drivers from the get go is not a bad idea. I even considered running the L6v2 in my WRX, but figured I would try these Genesis components or Soundstream Reference 3-ways in 2 way mode since they are collecting dust anyway. I don't care for the HAT ring radiator tweeter and would much rather use one of these, aimed slightly off axis: Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/), Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/lpg-soft-dome-tweeters/lpg-25nfa-1-textile-dome-tweeter-neodymium-magnet/) or Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/lpg-26na-aluminum-dome-car-tweeter/)

Of course, that is just my personal preference because I am overly sensitive to frequencies in a particular range and they trigger a bad case of tinnitus. Once the ringing starts, I shut the music off all together.

West
09-04-2012, 05:16 PM
I'd suggest starting out with a matched set for your first adventure into 3-way active. Something like the Precision Power PC3.65C (http://www.precisionpower.com/html-version/speakers-pc.html) would be a good set to cut your teeth on. Only after you get a knack for messing around with crossover points and coming up with shortcomings you wish to improve upon would I suggest DIYing 3-way plus sub active. A properly set up 3-way active system will easily outperform many 2-way active setups. The only hard thing is setting up the proper 3-way from a DIY, raw driver choice perspective and finding suitable locations for the drivers.

Then again, I spent a lot of time, money, and effort the last time I did a DIY 2 way active set. I went through at least 3 component sets prior to looking at the specs of raw drivers and figuring out what would work in a sealed factory pod and a 6x8 infinite baffle location. Never did I think that a Mach5 Audio MLI-65 mated with a Tang Band W4-1757SB would outperform CDT, Alpine Type R, and Pioneer Premier Components. IMHO the CDT and Type R comps had terrible 6.5" drivers with a so so tweeter. The Pioneer premier components were midbass champions in the Shaker 500 8" pod, but came with a not so great tweeter.

Now, to change it up, going with HAT drivers from the get go is not a bad idea. I even considered running the L6v2 in my WRX, but figured I would try these Genesis components or Soundstream Reference 3-ways in 2 way mode since they are collecting dust anyway. I don't care for the HAT ring radiator tweeter and would much rather use one of these, aimed slightly off axis: Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/), Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/lpg-soft-dome-tweeters/lpg-25nfa-1-textile-dome-tweeter-neodymium-magnet/) or Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/lpg-26na-aluminum-dome-car-tweeter/)

Of course, that is just my personal preference because I am overly sensitive to frequencies in a particular range and they trigger a bad case of tinnitus. Once the ringing starts, I shut the music off all together.

Really appreciate the advice. I am looking at 165KRX3 3 WAYS FOCAL NEW 6.5" KRX3 COMPONENT SPEAKERS K2 POWER on ebay... think I can get em for around 900... would that be a good set to start with?

Do you think I have a good possibility of damaging the speakers and thats why I should work my way up?

Those madison speakers are really affordable... think you could suggest a nice three way mix for me from there?

Sorry for all the questions.

Bettr n' Revrse
09-04-2012, 05:21 PM
You could make a really nice set from Madisound

West
09-04-2012, 05:30 PM
You could make a really nice set from Madisound

The prices are REALLY attractive, I'll give it a shot...

If you had my setup in a 99camry what would be your setup from Madisound? I'll try to put one together for you guys to critique.

West
09-04-2012, 05:42 PM
Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/)
Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/sb-acoustics-sb12mnrx25-04-4-midrange-4-ohms/)
Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-woofers-6-7/scanspeak-discovery-18w/4434g-00-7-midwoofer-4-ohm/)

That's my affordable selection. Not sure how they preform individually.

West
09-04-2012, 07:28 PM
You could make a really nice set from Madisound

I wrote them what I was looking for... lets see if they reply.

keep_hope_alive
09-05-2012, 01:57 AM
You can't go wrong with HAT.

You can certainly build a nice Scanspeak set from Madisound.

Dayton Reference series is a nice place to start.

Morel is another good choice.

Base your decision on the locations, aiming, and airspace.

For example; my kicks have a natural roll off at 3kHz when off-axis. On-axis response extends above 12khz with the same drivers (Dayton RS100 are 80Hz-20kHz). But off-axis they are not locatable, you'd never know they were there, everything is above the dash. On-axis they can be located at times. I will experiment with different angles and see if I can increase response to 5kHz while not being locatable.

Tympanny/Peerless is another decent option.

West
09-05-2012, 02:13 AM
You can't go wrong with HAT.

You can certainly build a nice Scanspeak set from Madisound.

Dayton Reference series is a nice place to start.

Morel is another good choice.

Base your decision on the locations, aiming, and airspace.

For example; my kicks have a natural roll off at 3kHz when off-axis. On-axis response extends above 12khz with the same drivers (Dayton RS100 are 80Hz-20kHz). But off-axis they are not locatable, you'd never know they were there, everything is above the dash. On-axis they can be located at times. I will experiment with different angles and see if I can increase response to 5kHz while not being locatable.

Tympanny/Peerless is another decent option.

I am going to have to do some more reading, I am rushing into this a bit. Is there any good literature you can suggest that would help guide me?

On-axis vs off-axis: At ear level vs. not at ear level?

My basic plan was to go with a three way system have the tweeter in the stock position in my car (99 camry) and have the mid in a custom built enclosure on the dash and have the woofer in the lower section of the door.

keep_hope_alive
09-05-2012, 09:23 PM
off-axis means you are closer to 90 degrees relative to the centerline of the woofer - i.e. it is aimed away from you.

on-axis means you are closer to centerline of the wooofer - i.e. it is aimed at you.

all speakers have substantial high frequency roll-off when off-axis.

you can put them in the dash (and lose visibility as well as cut the dash) or you can put them in the kicks. you have plenty of kick space once you relocate some of that crap down there (behind the kick panels). i vote kicks - plenty of room to make them work and give the woofers lots of airspace so the f3 point is lower. also, you improve ITD so you are less reliant on T/A

West
09-05-2012, 09:27 PM
off-axis means you are closer to 90 degrees relative to the centerline of the woofer - i.e. it is aimed away from you.

on-axis means you are closer to centerline of the wooofer - i.e. it is aimed at you.

all speakers have substantial high frequency roll-off when off-axis.

you can put them in the dash (and lose visibility as well as cut the dash) or you can put them in the kicks. you have plenty of kick space once you relocate some of that crap down there (behind the kick panels). i vote kicks - plenty of room to make them work and give the woofers lots of airspace so the f3 point is lower. also, you improve ITD so you are less reliant on T/A

How do I give the woofers more air space? I should leave the 6.5'' in the door correct?

keep_hope_alive
09-06-2012, 08:29 AM
there is no shortage of airspace in the door - there is actually too much since the volume greatly exceedes the air spring compliance air volume resulting in a "free air" configuration.

when you're in there, i recommend adding PVC encased fiberglass batt in the cavity (see build log), that really did wonders for me.

Alrojoca
09-12-2012, 02:56 PM
Just my 2 cents here, you probably need an extra 2 channel amp to drive the tweeters and mids separate for an better active set up or drive the 6 1/2 inch drivers with a separate 2 ch amp to take full advantage of the hat components and the PR99RS.

The tweeters and mids should be pointing towards the center between the 2 front seats for a better stage. Focals may sound better if highs are close to mids and even the 6 inch drivers.
The hat one not so much. In any situation your head unit has plenty Of bands, like 32 bands per ch for EQ, and a time delay, the time delay will help correct any on axis or off axiss or any issues related to the distance between the drivers with any set you pick.

Have fun! And good luck!

West
09-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Just my 2 cents here, you probably need an extra 2 channel amp to drive the tweeters and mids separate for an better active set up or drive the 6 1/2 inch drivers with a separate 2 ch amp to take full advantage of the hat components and the PR99RS.

The tweeters and mids should be pointing towards the center between the 2 front seats for a better stage. Focals may sound better if highs are close to mids and even the 6 inch drivers.
The hat one not so much. In any situation your head unit has plenty Of bands, like 32 bands per ch for EQ, and a time delay, the time delay will help correct any on axis or off axiss or any issues related to the distance between the drivers with any set you pick.

Have fun! And good luck!

Would a Mcc406m (mcintosh-6channel) not cut the cheese for an amp?

West
09-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Does anyone think ti would help if I used the McIntosh 4 channel (bridged for the 6.5'') and the Mc 6 channel (for the mids and tweeter, in bridged mode for 4 channel operation)? Would there be a big advantage there? I already have the amps, so whatever would work best is the way I'll go... I think that would be a TON of power lol

Even if it means upgrading the alternator.

West
09-18-2012, 04:07 PM
Any thoughts?

West
09-18-2012, 04:09 PM
quackhead ;

West
09-18-2012, 04:17 PM
av83 ; pro-rabbit ;

What do you think?

quackhead
09-18-2012, 04:29 PM
Does anyone think ti would help if I used the McIntosh 4 channel (bridged for the 6.5'') and the Mc 6 channel (for the mids and tweeter, in bridged mode for 4 channel operation)? Would there be a big advantage there? I already have the amps, so whatever would work best is the way I'll go... I think that would be a TON of power lol

Even if it means upgrading the alternator.

didn't read the thread, but you are wanting to bridge the 4ch on a pair of 6.5 mids and use a 6ch for another set of mids and a set of tweets?

West
09-18-2012, 04:33 PM
didn't read the thread, but you are wanting to bridge the 4ch on a pair of 6.5 mids and use a 6ch for another set of mids and a set of tweets?

yup the 4 channel is (100x4 @ 4ohm - bridged would be 200x2 @ 4) - 6.5 mids
the 6 channel would be (50x4 @ 4 + 100x2 @ 4 so bridging the 50's would be 100x4) - 3.5'' mids and a pair of tweets

Would it be worth doing? Or should I just use the 6 channel as is w/o the 4 channel?

av83
09-18-2012, 04:33 PM
av83 ; pro-rabbit ;

What do you think?

I think that you are going to have a very, very loud 3way setup, is what i think, lol. ...I have 100-120 rms going to each tweeter, and each mid, and its stupid loud. I'm pretty darn happy with what I'm getting out of my simple 5 speaker system, so I'm very hesitant to give you advice. I have different expectations than you, too. I sought sql on a budget, and found it. Your goals are different than mine.

West
09-18-2012, 04:36 PM
I think that you are going to have a very, very loud 3way setup, is what i think, lol. ...I have 100-120 rms going to each tweeter, and each mid, and its stupid loud. I'm pretty darn happy with what I'm getting out of my simple 5 speaker system, so I'm very hesitant to give you advice. I have different expectations than you, too. I sought sql on a budget, and found it. Your goals are different than mine.

I like it loud, but not REALLY loud lol. Just was wondering if the sound quality would be better (maybe some more headroom?) dont know...

av83
09-18-2012, 04:37 PM
yup the 4 channel is (100x4 @ 4ohm - bridged would be 200x2 @ 4) - 6.5 mids
the 6 channel would be (50x4 @ 4 + 100x2 @ 4 so bridging the 50's would be 100x4) - 3.5'' mids and a pair of tweets

Would it be worth doing? Or should I just use the 6 channel as is w/o the 4 channel?

are you sure about those specs? bridged output is usually closer to double the 2 ohm specs per channel. bu teven if it is what you say it is, that a shitload of power... Better get some speakers that can handle it if you plan on using all that juice.

av83
09-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Would it be worth doing? Or should I just use the 6 channel as is w/o the 4 channel?

I'd do it :cool:

TheUnderFighter
09-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Would a Mcc406m (mcintosh-6channel) not cut the cheese for an amp?

I think that 6 channel is a pretty nice bet. It is plenty of power. Keep in mind it's not a lot of power, it's not going to scream at you. But I think 100w @ mid-bass, 50w @ mid-range, and 50w @ tweeter, (all underrated at 12v), will be plenty of power to sound very nice. And as I'm sure you know, that's not a ton of power if you want to get really loud, but I don't think that is your goal with that gear. If it IS your goal though, I'd look into a stronger 4 channel for the tweets and mid-range, and a bridged 4 channel or beast 2 channel for the mid-bass. You know as well as any of us, if you want louder, you need more power. So if you just want a good sounding, decent output SQ set-up, you're set with that 6 channel. If you want to get loud, double your power.

As for the 3-way thing.... I'm not speaking from experience, but just from a lot of consideration, and what I read here.... I'd start off by getting an already built 3-way set, on the cheaper side... maybe used. And just use it to get experience with gains and T/A, and settings your crossover points, and you can play around with speaker locations. Keep in mind if you buy the set used, it's already lost it's new value, so you can sell it off for the same price you bought it for. Then once you have experience under your belt with it, sell those off, and piece together your affordable set from Madisound, PE, or DIYcable. And for what it's worth.... this is my dream mid-bass selection: DIYCable.com : Intro Home Exodus Anarchy (http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=538)

av83
09-18-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm glad you never tried running those cdt's active TheUnderFighter ; ...you might have kept them, lol. those xovers held them back, badly.

West
09-18-2012, 04:49 PM
are you sure about those specs? bridged output is usually closer to double the 2 ohm specs per channel. bu teven if it is what you say it is, that a shitload of power... Better get some speakers that can handle it if you plan on using all that juice.

Yeah I was mistaken on the bridging... more power...
MCC404m - "In the Two Channel Mode channels 1 and 2, and channels 3 and 4 operate in bridged configuration as a pair of full frequency range 400w amps"
so 400wx2 @ 4ohmn

MCC406m - "In the 4 channel operating mode channel pairs of (1 and 2) and (3 and 4) are bridged to provide 200w each @ 4ohms. Channels 5 and 6 are driven independently for 100 watts output for each channel."

av83
09-18-2012, 04:56 PM
Yeah I was mistaken on the bridging... more power...
MCC404m - "In the Two Channel Mode channels 1 and 2, and channels 3 and 4 operate in bridged configuration as a pair of full frequency range 400w amps"
so 400wx2 @ 4ohmn

MCC406m - "In the 4 channel operating mode channel pairs of (1 and 2) and (3 and 4) are bridged to provide 200w each @ 4ohms. Channels 5 and 6 are driven independently for 100 watts output for each channel."

Shoot, If I could run a three way setup with 400 on the woofs, 200 on the mids, and 100 on the tweets, I'd be in heaven, lol. Also, you don't have to squeeze all of that out of them. set your gains for however much power you want.

TheUnderFighter
09-18-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm glad you never tried running those cdt's active TheUnderFighter ; ...you might have kept them, lol. those xovers held them back, badly.

Well everything sounded really good to me in the upper range, but they just didn't play low enough on the power I wanted to run. The crossovers were the only bad thing about them though haha, so it's good to see they are really shining now active.

West
09-18-2012, 05:04 PM
Shoot, If I could run a three way setup with 400 on the woofs, 200 on the mids, and 100 on the tweets, I'd be in heaven, lol. Also, you don't have to squeeze all of that out of them. set your gains for however much power you want.

That was kind of what I was thinking to.
Do you think I would need an alt upgrade + extra battery if I didn't push the system?
Do you think the sound would be brighter that way?

quackhead
09-18-2012, 05:05 PM
yup the 4 channel is (100x4 @ 4ohm - bridged would be 200x2 @ 4) - 6.5 mids
the 6 channel would be (50x4 @ 4 + 100x2 @ 4 so bridging the 50's would be 100x4) - 3.5'' mids and a pair of tweets

Would it be worth doing? Or should I just use the 6 channel as is w/o the 4 channel?

I would do the 6 channel 6.5's on the 100w channels and the 3.5's/tweets on the remaining 4 50w channels....And, then I would use the 4 ch on another set of 6.5's and a set of 8ohm silk tweets (if there was room to cut and mount another set of midbasses next to the ones already planned....or study a kha build and place them down in the kicks....just my .02

West
09-18-2012, 05:08 PM
I would do the 6 channel 6.5's on the 100w channels and the 3.5's/tweets on the remaining 4 50w channels....And, then I would use the 4 ch on another set of 6.5's and a set of 8ohm silk tweets (if there was room to cut and mount another set of midbasses next to the ones already planned....or study a kha build and place them down in the kicks....just my .02

Thanks quack! I don't think I have a ton of room unfortunately...

av83
09-18-2012, 05:13 PM
That was kind of what I was thinking to.
Do you think I would need an alt upgrade + extra battery if I didn't push the system?
Do you think the sound would be brighter that way?

Depends. what is your sub amp, and at what ohm load are you using it at?

West
09-18-2012, 05:16 PM
Depends. what is your sub amp, and at what ohm load are you using it at?

The sub amp is an MCC302 (bridged mono 600W @ 4ohms) I actually only use 300-400W of it though lol.

av83
09-18-2012, 05:24 PM
You don't need an alt, then. Not that I would discourage anyone that wanted one, from getting one. They can only help. But its not needed. A decent agm front and rear would help, though. That a decent amount of a/b power.

West
09-18-2012, 05:27 PM
You don't need an alt, then. Not that I would discourage anyone that wanted one, from getting one. They can only help. But its not needed. A decent agm front and rear would help, though. That a decent amount of a/b power.

Really appreciate it man, I think I will go the whole 9 yards and do both. I may try the 6 channel independently until I can get the monies for the alt and batteries.

av83
09-18-2012, 05:30 PM
I think I will go the whole 9 yards and do both.

absolutely nothing wrong with doing that.

TheUnderFighter
09-18-2012, 05:39 PM
Yea that is a gooood bit of A/B power.... you'll definitely need a stout battery under the hood and a Big 3, and likely a battery in the back.

West
09-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Yea that is a gooood bit of A/B power.... you'll definitely need a stout battery under the hood and a Big 3, and likely a battery in the back.

Better safe than sorry... lol