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View Full Version : On Axis vs Off Axis Response Curve



Rysandro
08-18-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm having a hard time deciding between going with a Coaxial Hertz HCX 690 or using a 6x9 to 6.5" adapter with Hertz HSK 165 XL Component (6.5" HSK 165XL Woofer + HT28 Tweeter) for my front doors (2012 4Runner)

The Component setup cost about twice that of the Coaxial 6x9, does the off axis response curve
Reflect the price increase IYO,

Coaxial 6x9
http://i.imgur.com/2JN2u.png

Tweeter only look from 2k-20k Hz
http://i.imgur.com/GD2bp.png

Woofer only look from 20 - 3k Hz
http://i.imgur.com/xXmH5.png

Rysandro
08-18-2012, 06:20 PM
BTW I'm assuming the gray lines are off axis? Any idea to what degree off axis?

keep_hope_alive
08-18-2012, 06:22 PM
usually 30 degrees off axis is used. but that graph if best case - no door panel. once you cover the speaker with the door panel it gets much, much worse.

you want components, and you want the tweeters up high. so the sound stage is high.

the components sound better in general.

Rysandro
08-18-2012, 06:48 PM
usually 30 degrees off axis is used. but that graph if best case - no door panel. once you cover the speaker with the door panel it gets much, much worse.

you want components, and you want the tweeters up high. so the sound stage is high.

the components sound better in general.

I bought a 3.5" Hertz For the dash, should I just return it for a Hertz ML 280 Tweeter? It would be in the dash pretty much pointing at the front window..But this tweeter sure looks nice off axis

http://i.imgur.com/1sHHz.png

keep_hope_alive
08-18-2012, 06:59 PM
i love the Hertz Mille line. awesome speakers.

Rysandro
08-18-2012, 08:21 PM
i love the Hertz Mille line. awesome speakers.

So u think it's a good idea even in the dash pointing up?

keep_hope_alive
08-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Yes, it will likely be better than 3.5 coax.

Rysandro
08-19-2012, 12:51 AM
Can the "Mille"Tweeter (ML280) and "High Energy" 6.5" Woofer (HV 165XL) be used together without the Crossover box thing that is sold when bought as component sets?

Are those things beneficial to sound quality? Or is it just a safety precaution? Sorry first time messing with car audio, only dealt with minor home audio in the past. And I just set crossovers on the receiver with home audio...

These are the things I'm talking about

http://images02.olx.com.sg/ui/11/36/37/1312636256_236762937_1-Pictures-of--Brand-New-Hertz-Hi-Energy-HSK-165-2-way-Component-Speaker.jpg

Rysandro
08-19-2012, 07:28 PM
Bueler?

Anyway think I'm leaning towards Mille ML 1600 and a Dynaudio MD102 or MD130.

Can't find many reviews comparing both those Dyna Tweeters

keep_hope_alive
08-20-2012, 01:08 AM
Sorry, didn't see the response.

Crossovers are required. They can be passive like in your pic, or they can be active/electronic when you have a separate amp channel on each speaker and

You must remove low frequencies from being supplied to the tweeter, or it will try to move to far, and it will fail. the manual on the tweeter will tell you what frequency to set the crossover.

Rysandro
08-20-2012, 01:34 PM
Sorry, didn't see the response.

Crossovers are required. They can be passive like in your pic, or they can be active/electronic when you have a separate amp channel on each speaker and

You must remove low frequencies from being supplied to the tweeter, or it will try to move to far, and it will fail. the manual on the tweeter will tell you what frequency to set the crossover.

I see, I just didn't know if the Passover could be set with the AMP or if that passive crossover box was required.

Anyway I just realized the Dynaudio MD102 and MD130 tweeters are 8 ohm and the rest of my planned setup is 4 ohm.

Here is my Plan.

Dynaudio MD102 or MD130 in Dash (rated at 8ohm not sure about watts)
Hertz Mille ML1600 (125w RMS each @ 4 ohm) in front Door
Hertz HCX 165 Coaxial (100w RMS each @ 4 ohm) in Tailgate

How would u power all this? How much power do the Dynaudios need? What does them being 8ohm mean that I need to do to power them?

Is one Alpine PDXF-6 enough for all 6 speakers? The "Birth Certificate will at least show about 160 watts per channel @ 4 ohm (4 channels)

Or should I get two PDX-F6? Does having 8 channels on hand help to drive the 8 ohm Dynaudio tweeters? If two is overkill the extra power on the table could be nice incase I ever decide to add something to the rear doors.

keep_hope_alive
08-20-2012, 02:16 PM
if you don't use the passive crossovers, and you want to run active, you need to have one of three things:

1. a head unit that is capable of 3-way active.
2. an amplifier with electronic crossovers that provide a high pass filter at or above 3kHz. this is not a common feature.
3. an external processor or electronic crossover that goes between the head unit and amplifier.

in all three cases, the tweeters are on their own amplifier channel.

to run an active 2-way up front, plus full range in rear you need 6 amplifier channels.

it is fine to run an 8 ohm tweeter. the amp will like that load. tweeters are more efficient so they need much less power anyway.

The Alpine PDX-F6 is not capable of powering tweeters directly. You would need an electronic crossover in addition to that amplifier.

you don't need rear speakers. they won't benefit the passengers. they add complexity and cost (especially amplifier cost).

describe what else the system will comprise of, the vehicle (year/make/model/trim), and who will be performing the install.

shpatb
08-20-2012, 02:27 PM
If this is your first car audio install, I'm assuming, than you should run a passive system before you try going to active. It's a lot easier and less costly if you mess up and blow your tweeters.

Rysandro
08-20-2012, 03:12 PM
if you don't use the passive crossovers, and you want to run active, you need to have one of three things:

1. a head unit that is capable of 3-way active.
2. an amplifier with electronic crossovers that provide a high pass filter at or above 3kHz. this is not a common feature.
3. an external processor or electronic crossover that goes between the head unit and amplifier.

in all three cases, the tweeters are on their own amplifier channel.

to run an active 2-way up front, plus full range in rear you need 6 amplifier channels.

it is fine to run an 8 ohm tweeter. the amp will like that load. tweeters are more efficient so they need much less power anyway.

The Alpine PDX-F6 is not capable of powering tweeters directly. You would need an electronic crossover in addition to that amplifier.

you don't need rear speakers. they won't benefit the passengers. they add complexity and cost (especially amplifier cost).

describe what else the system will comprise of, the vehicle (year/make/model/trim), and who will be performing the install.

I want to keep the OEM HeadUnit, it's a touchscreen navigation and don't want to give up the OEM Look (and I don't want my wife noticing everything I did). I want everything to remain stock looking, I have space under each front seat of about 11x9x8 (and 5 inches high) so that probably limits me to D series amps.

It's a 2012 Toyota 4Runner Limited (Without "Premium"
JBL Audio).

I'm thinking of having it all done at All Star Sound in Long Beach. 5 star rating (64 reviews) on Yelp and right down the street from work. They're even an Authorized Dynaudio dealer.

Can u suggest what "electronic crossover" I should go with?

Also any 6 channel AMPS that u think can be hidden in my car and provide over 120 RMS per channel @ 4 ohms?

OmegaBunny
08-20-2012, 04:14 PM
I use a RF 3sixty.2 and love it so far. It is easy to hookup and tune since everything can be done through my laptop. I have it running active to a Sundown 100.4 and my subamp. The tweets some off the fronts to channels one and two on my amp, the mids to channels three and four, and the sub/center to my sub amp. Everything is set to full and turn to minimum on the amps with the exception of the gains and all the xover points are set via my laptop. It even has time alignment. If you look you can get one for $200-$250 used.

keep_hope_alive
08-20-2012, 06:36 PM
let the shop recommend what to do and buy everything from them. i never recommend buying yourself then asking a shop to install it. warranty work is out of your pocket and there is finger pointing when things don't work.

running passives with a 4 channel amp is a fine approach. Dynaudio mids/woofers are also beautiful. Just get either an all Dyn or all Hertz front and rear stage - mids only in the rear. Run the front comps with the passive crossovers. Power from Alpine amp is then an easy approach.

I can tell you from experience that a MLK set (with passives) is beautiful and doesn't need to be ran active. I'll also say that sealing and deadening the front doors is required to get the most out of them.