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View Full Version : Silver flute 6.5 + SEAS or Vifa tweets... can I go passive?



lingling1337
01-17-2012, 08:35 PM
My setup right now is head unit-->Aura 4200 50x4 amp--> 8" tang band sub. I don't want to add an active XO or any processing at the moment.

My question is, would using a passive crossover really hurt the sound or make it not worth it to with raw drivers (I see there's a nice MBQuart XO on ebay that I'll jump on if itll work)? And I seem to see the flutes mostly in 3 way applications. Are they any good in a 2 way? Thanks yall.

TaylorFade
01-17-2012, 08:45 PM
Passives will be fine if you don't want to go active. Most are crossed ~ 1.6khz and those Flutes will play that high. Go for it. That'll be a nice front.

zako
01-17-2012, 11:00 PM
The silver flutes should be able to play well into very high frequencies. Check the review and full test on zaphaudio.com: "Comments: well built cast frame with a wool fiber cone and a reasonably smooth response with a minor breakup at 5Khz. Average harmonic distortion performance, to be expected at this price point. Bass is relatively clean, though not as extended as others in this group. High sensitivity even for a 4 ohm driver. Overall a very usable and well built driver of good value. Tested June 2009."

I'd use at least 4KHz crossover frequency in a 2-way front with all drivers in stock locations. Most tweeters do not take kindly being crossed below that anyways. But besides those details, the only problem that I see with passive crossover is that in the final result the sensitivity of the tweeter and woofer should match each other. The passive crossover needs to be designed to take into account the relative sensitivities of the drivers. That's the only issue. If you can find/build a passive crossover such that neither the tweeter nor woofer overplays the other drivers, I don't see why should there be a problem. The difference between active and passive crossovers is that the active crossover allows more tuning options (time alignment, change the crossover frequency or slope, gains, etc)

Why So Cereal?
01-17-2012, 11:18 PM
When you go to look into using a passive xover with some raw drivers, you'll want to pay attention to the impedance plot of the drivers. Some drivers' impedance shoot up at certain frequencies and this will affect the xover. Also, like mentioned, passive sets usually have attenuation built into the xover, if you just get a random xover it may not match well with the drivers in that aspect. How big of an effect these will make in your sound are sort of dependent upon your ear but are things you'll want to take into account.

IIRC, that Silver Flute driver's impedance begins to shoot up around 2khz or 3khz. So I'd choose an xover point around there. Parts express has some that may work for you. If it'll be a 2 way front with stock locations a lower xover point is your friend.

VWBobby
01-17-2012, 11:49 PM
The only "Rocket science" behind designing and building a passive crossover is choosing your xover points and what grade/quality of components you want to use. The point where the impedance shoots up is usually near the point where the cone breaks up (in this case ~5Khz).

That being said, I'm running some very inexpensive AudioPoop crossovers that do the job nicely.
These have a 3.5khz crossover point and drive your tweeters at 4.5Khz on up at 4ohms.
CROSSOVER 1 PAIR 2 WAY PASSIVE | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CROSSOVER-1-PAIR-2-WAY-PASSIVE-/290572960873#vi-content)

Many DIY and pre-built type units on partsexpress, madisound, sonicelectronix, etc.

Bettr n' Revrse
01-17-2012, 11:52 PM
Sounds like the setup Im going with in the truck but active haha...

lingling1337
01-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Thanks for the information yall, good stuff. So how will I like the Flutes? In my experience in home theatre DIY usually is on par with mass market products around 3x the price. Will this setup compete with a pair of DLS UP6 that I can get for around the same price?

Ridinhi
01-18-2012, 03:46 PM
I myself have the Flutes in my ride. Previously had the Crescendo set and kept the tweets and xovers from the set. replaced the Crescendo mids with the Flutes. Midbass puts the Crescendos to shame with ease. I currently have them cross overed @ 80hz but on certain songs ,I drop it down to 50hz when volume isnt too high. guess im trying to make up for having no sub,lol. Loudness,I will give the edge to the Flutes but the flutes do play much cleaner.And like stated earlier, they play high and sound great doing it. I do feel like the xovers are holding the Flutes back. I did xchange the Crescendo xovers with 2 other sets and the Flutes seem to like the Crescendo xovers best. I can only imagine what they would sound like active! Whatever xovers you decide to go with,please,let me know because Im sure the flutes can excel even more with the right passives.

Ridinhi
01-18-2012, 03:48 PM
Also,just wanted to state that my doors are about 50% deadened. And I would compare the Flutes midbass to the cdt HD-62. Sure it would be better if my doors were deadened completely. But to sum it up, these mids are awesome for the price.

dragonrage
01-18-2012, 03:55 PM
You guys are giving the dumbest crossover frequencies I have ever heard. The correct answer is somewhere around 2.0kHz to 3.0kHz. No more, no less. Higher and you get some nasty breakup from most 6.5"s plus very crappy off-axis response plus you want your drivers to ideally be flat 2 octaves (four times the frequency) past your crossover, but at least one octave. Also keep sensitivities and locations of the drivers (speakers, not the driver of the car, haha) in mind.

1.6kHz? What dome tweeter is going to play that low? Not even Scan-speak Illuminators with a 4th-order crossover is good for 1.6kHz.

Joseph7195
01-18-2012, 04:02 PM
There is much more to crossover points than brand of speaker. All crossover points acquired should be done so with attention to detail. I would suggest having someone with experience in crossover design help you out with what you need. You don't have to pay for information, a lot of seasoned members on here should be willing to help you. Much more attention should be paid to your vehicle, considering it's going to be your enclosure.

dragonrage
01-18-2012, 04:03 PM
Absolutely. It should be fine tuned. But it won't be 1.6kHz or 4kHz for a 6.5" traditional woofer(midbass)/tweeter set. Ever.

If you wanted, you can hook the drivers up, get a measuring microphone set up, and use a program called LSPCAD to design a crossover for you based on the measurements. (Personally, I don't do that... but it's an option.)

lingling1337
01-18-2012, 06:07 PM
Well it looks like the best option might be to have Madisound design a crossover for me, or buy a premade one and tweak it a bit. I don't have the cash to really set up my car properly ATM so that means no deadening and no real tuning.

dragon... thanks for confirming my thoughts on the crossover point. Looking at the FR graph and reading the suggestions of others, the SEAS should probably be right inside 2.2-2.4.

Anyway I emailed Madisound and hopefully they'll quote me a decent price for the XO.

Why So Cereal?
01-18-2012, 06:34 PM
You guys are giving the dumbest crossover frequencies I have ever heard. The correct answer is somewhere around 2.0kHz to 3.0kHz. No more, no less. Higher and you get some nasty breakup from most 6.5"s plus very crappy off-axis response plus you want your drivers to ideally be flat 2 octaves (four times the frequency) past your crossover, but at least one octave. Also keep sensitivities and locations of the drivers (speakers, not the driver of the car, haha) in mind.

1.6kHz? What dome tweeter is going to play that low? Not even Scan-speak Illuminators with a 4th-order crossover is good for 1.6kHz.

my sentiments exactly.

OP,

heres a 2khz xover ----------->Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Crossover 2,000 Hz 260-140 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-140)
a 2.5khz one---------->Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover 2,500 Hz 260-142 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-142)
and a 3khz one---------->Dayton Audio XO2W-3K 2-Way Crossover 3,000 Hz 260-144 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-144)

they all accept either 4 or 8 ohm woofer and 8 ohm tweeter. Should be just fine for you.

lingling1337
01-18-2012, 07:12 PM
Nice, thanks for the links princ3mo. What would you recommend as far as safely mounting the PCB in my car door? I guess it would need protection top and bottom? Could I just do a couple pieces of plastic mounted to standoffs?

zako
01-18-2012, 10:53 PM
You guys are giving the dumbest crossover frequencies I have ever heard. The correct answer is somewhere around 2.0kHz to 3.0kHz. No more, no less. Higher and you get some nasty breakup from most 6.5"s plus very crappy off-axis response plus you want your drivers to ideally be flat 2 octaves (four times the frequency) past your crossover, but at least one octave. Also keep sensitivities and locations of the drivers (speakers, not the driver of the car, haha) in mind.


This depends on the woofer. Some woofers _have_ to be crossed at 2KHz. A lot of woofers play into very high frequencies. For example, all Hybrid Audio woofers can play into 5KHz and higher. Often active users cross them at 6KHz or so. This is entirely driver dependent. There is enough test data to see the usable frequency range of many popular drivers (e.g. DIYMA klipper tests, zaphaudio.com, etc). My personal preference is to stick with woofers that can be crossed high, leaving tweeters to just play the treble. This should be better for imaging if the tweeter is far apart from the woofer, and most tweeter distort below 4KHz anyways. I'd experiment with 2-way speakers that can be crossed at around 2Khz if I had a high performance (large format?) tweeter and it could be placed near the midbass..

zako
01-18-2012, 10:59 PM
Thanks for the information yall, good stuff. So how will I like the Flutes? In my experience in home theatre DIY usually is on par with mass market products around 3x the price. Will this setup compete with a pair of DLS UP6 that I can get for around the same price?

Someone on DIYMA compared HAT L6 with Flutes. The conclusion was that L6 is slightly better, but horrible value given the prices of HAT products. Flutes are a great value.

The only concern is.. will they survive for long in a harsh car environment?

lingling1337
01-19-2012, 01:26 PM
The only concern is.. will they survive for long in a harsh car environment?

I don't understand why they wouldn't...

disturbed471985
01-19-2012, 01:33 PM
I have mine crossed at 100hz-3800. Not a single issue with breakup. Are they the best mid in the world no are they the best mid for under $50 each you bet they are. With my 4 you would be almost temped to say I have a sub in he trunk "yes a small sub on low power" but it does everything I need a set of mids to do and they do it on the cheap.. As far as will they hold up in a car enviroment well I have been running flutes for atleast 3 years and not ever have I had a failure I am on my 3rd and 4th set now. Previous sets were sold to members on this forum when money got tight.

Why So Cereal?
01-19-2012, 01:52 PM
I don't understand why they wouldn't...

Do u plan on using your car as a submarine on the weekends?



If not, they'll be fine.

lingling1337
01-19-2012, 01:59 PM
Do u plan on using your car as a submarine on the weekends?



If not, they'll be fine.

Right on. I'll probably grab a set of XOs on ebay... if I was going really over the top I might get them custom made, but there's an MBquart on ebay for cheap that crosses over at 2,800. If I miss that there are always the Swiss Audio XOs that cross at the same point. Thanks for all the help guys, sounds like I have my system figured out.

EDIT2: nvm looks like the tweets are actually suited to an XO closer to 3k so 2.8k should be perfect.

EDIT: Disturbed, how are you liking your setup? Looks pretty similar to what I want to do, though you've probably done more acoustics than me.

Why So Cereal?
01-19-2012, 02:15 PM
I linked u a 2.5k xover on parts express.

disturbed471985
01-19-2012, 03:13 PM
Right on. I'll probably grab a set of XOs on ebay... if I was going really over the top I might get them custom made, but there's an MBquart on ebay for cheap that crosses over at 2,800. If I miss that there are always the Swiss Audio XOs that cross at the same point. Thanks for all the help guys, sounds like I have my system figured out.

EDIT2: nvm looks like the tweets are actually suited to an XO closer to 3k so 2.8k should be perfect.

EDIT: Disturbed, how are you liking your setup? Looks pretty similar to what I want to do, though you've probably done more acoustics than me.

I got a good bit of work to get them perfect but the good thing is that I have a HU that will allow me to do the tweaks that need to be done to get it to my goal. Mine are in glassed door pods they are not 100% air tight but I would say atleast 75-90% LOL.. My doors are full dead so I have done the best I could do get them in the best possible situation for them to perform as intended. Only downfall is I wish I did not have some many eq and slope options gonna take hours upon hours to get it just right LOL.

mojozoom
02-23-2012, 12:39 AM
I'd consider mounting the tweets in the kicks and the xover under the dash. Too much water in the doors for a bare pcb and the kick is technically a better spot fpr the tweets in your setup.v