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Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:01 PM
Do I need to reverse polarity or anything special? Also what's a good way to make the holes perfect so your surround doesn't hit the wood? I wanted to invert to save a little space and for looks also It will be easier for me to monitor my subwoofers and not have to take them out of the box... I'm just scared that I might do this wrong and **** my subwoofers up.

Also what do you guys recommend for box size @ 32hz for 2 DC Level 3's with added spiders. right now i'm doing 3ft^ ea. which DC says is best but I've never ran a box this small for 2 15's of this power. I was thinking doing 6.5-7ft^3 for the both of them and tuning to 32hz right now im 6ft^3 tuned to 34hz.

Bggd_GMC
01-03-2012, 03:03 PM
yup just reverse it... some head units do it for you FTW!! atleast mine did.... make a template of how wide you need the hole... then cut it out

Sleeklsc
01-03-2012, 03:04 PM
Predrill the holes with them mounted regularly. If all the subs will be inverted then you just hook them up like you normally would.

Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:07 PM
Yeah I'm going to invert both subwoofers so I DO NOT need to invert? I see 2 different responses to this I need a definative answer. Also what do you mean make a template of how wide I need the hole?

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 03:09 PM
inverted sounds like **** :(
you also play around with the polarity. I do that no matter inverted or mounted regular.

mast240
01-03-2012, 03:09 PM
You will reverse your polarity if you invert. also, predrilling your holes like mentioned before will help you get the subs centered. You also need to take into account that your box tuning may change slightly, due to the sub displacement not being a factor.

Sleeklsc
01-03-2012, 03:11 PM
F really? It's been a while since I inverted subs but could've sworn you wired them up the same as long as they were all facing the same direction.. o well...

Bggd_GMC
01-03-2012, 03:11 PM
Yeah I'm going to invert both subwoofers so I DO NOT need to invert? I see 2 different responses to this I need a definative answer. Also what do you mean make a template of how wide I need the hole?

knowing me i would fawk up so if the box isnt already built id cut it out and make sure the surround doesnt hit the wood

Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:12 PM
You will reverse your polarity if you invert. also, predrilling your holes like mentioned before will help you get the subs centered. You also need to take into account that your box tuning may change slightly, due to the sub displacement not being a factor.

I'm making a new box without displacement added. and I'm still seeing mixed signals DO IT REVERSE or leave it NORMAL seems like nobody actually knows haha. Also inverted sounds like ****? since when?

Bggd_GMC
01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
I'm making a new box without displacement added. and I'm still seeing mixed signals DO IT REVERSE or leave it NORMAL seems like nobody actually knows haha. Also inverted sounds like ****? since when?

you reverse if its inverted.... and inverted does not sound like crap... both inverted and non inverted sounded the same to me

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 03:16 PM
Since always that lets all of the mechanical noise enter the listening area instead of being hidden by the enclosure.
There is no definitive answer to the polarity question, it all has to do with the distance and timing it takes for the sound to leave the enclosure/woofer and then get to your listening position. That is why you try it both ways, you will notice a lot of the good amps out have a phase switch, that is exactly what reversing the polarity does.

ahole-ic
01-03-2012, 03:16 PM
I'm making a new box without displacement added. and I'm still seeing mixed signals DO IT REVERSE or leave it NORMAL seems like nobody actually knows haha. Also inverted sounds like ****? since when?

Inverted doesn't sound any different than normal unless you have crappy subs and they have mechanical noise. Lol wenn told on himself. Anyways, it really doesn't matter whether you switch polarity or not if they are all facing the same direction. It only matters if one is inverted and the other isn't. Then they cancel each other completely out if you don't wire one backwards.

mast240
01-03-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm making a new box without displacement added. and I'm still seeing mixed signals DO IT REVERSE or leave it NORMAL seems like nobody actually knows haha. Also inverted sounds like ****? since when?

inverted sounds like **** when the box isnt designed properly, or the subs arent mounted properly. You DO want to reverse your polarity. The main reason people invert, is to save space, I.E. if they dont have enough space to get proper cubed with sub displacement. it can sound just as good... for your cutouts, you'll just do normal sized holes, the manufacturers recommended.

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 03:23 PM
don't tell people **** that's wrong just because you don't know the answer. There is a big difference when switching polarity and it ''really DOES matter''

Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:24 PM
inverted sounds like **** when the box isnt designed properly, or the subs arent mounted properly. You DO want to reverse your polarity. The main reason people invert, is to save space, I.E. if they dont have enough space to get proper cubed with sub displacement. it can sound just as good... for your cutouts, you'll just do normal sized holes, the manufacturers recommended.

I realize this but in a normal size cutout wasnt mean to have surrounds in it and i dunno how to see or tell if the rubber is hitting it really worries me. So I reverse polarity and I just make sure my cutout is exact and ill measure and **** thanks everyone. does anyone advise against inverting my lvl 3's?

sacsking916
01-03-2012, 03:25 PM
your deck might have it reversed for you, my deck has that option as well

Bggd_GMC
01-03-2012, 03:27 PM
your deck might have it reversed for you, my deck has that option as well

yep i found out that i had that option AFTER i had reversed it lol

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 03:28 PM
a lvl3's cut out is the same for inverted and normal mounting. Also for the 10th time try it both reversed and normal polarity.

Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:30 PM
a lvl3's cut out is the same for inverted and normal mounting. Also for the 10th time try it both reversed and normal polarity.

Yeah for the 10th time ive had mixed messages don't blame me. I will try both but I dont know what I'm supposed to be looking for? If its wrong normal how will I know?

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 03:32 PM
it will sound louder and more in beat with your mids one way.

Fi_
01-03-2012, 03:41 PM
it will sound louder and more in beat with your mids one way.

I don't see how inverting will hinder anything?... I've inverted woofers before cheaper ones granted anotice no difference.

ahole-ic
01-03-2012, 03:43 PM
don't tell people **** that's wrong just because you don't know the answer. There is a big difference when switching polarity and it ''really DOES matter''
There is no audible difference. You're telling me you can audibly hear the difference when a woofer moves one direction vs another first? No you can't. You would just be lying. You have no idea what you're talking about junior. Go back to being the forum troll. Everyone knows that's what you are and you have no clue. That's why you have almost 1000 groans.

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 04:25 PM
There is no audible difference. You're telling me you can audibly hear the difference when a woofer moves one direction vs another first? No you can't. You would just be lying. You have no idea what you're talking about junior. Go back to being the forum troll. Everyone knows that's what you are and you have no clue. That's why you have almost 1000 groans.

yes you can, go back to your failing website. the fact you say you can't proves how clueless you are. oh and I also have more thanks then you have as well. This stupid groan/thank system it useless.

I don't see how inverting will hinder anything?... I've inverted woofers before cheaper ones granted anotice no difference.

It changes when the sound reaches your ear. when you realize how long a wave is you can see easily how this changes things.

wenn_du_weinst
01-03-2012, 04:30 PM
Phasing facts

Once you've placed your subwoofer, there are some things you can do with it to further heighten the bass in your music. A lot of subs come with a couple of basic controls: phase and crossover.

The phase control will help the sound waves from your sub get synced up with those coming from your main speakers. If they arrive out of phase, there's the tiniest delay between Mick Jagger's voice and Bill Wyman's bass, for instance.

An easy, accurate way of setting the phase control is to reverse the connections on your main speakers (the black wire goes to the red terminal and the red wire to the black terminal). Now play a simple selection, like a jazz instrumental with a good walking bass line, on your system while you're sitting in your listening position. Have a friend dial the phase control on the sub until you hear the least amount of bass. Leave the setting there. Returning your speaker wires to their proper places will now allow you to hear the most bass from your sub.

(If your sub doesn't have a phase control, you're going to want to position it as close as possible to one of your main speakers in order to ensure that the sound waves are synced up.)
GoodSound! "How To" Archives (http://www.goodsound.com/howto/2002_06_15.htm)
Depending on the absolute phase of your main speakers and amplifier and the distances of the subwoofer and the main speakers from the listening position, the bass in the crossover region may be smoother if you reverse the subwoofer’s phase. Typically, though, phase is left at 0° for most applications.
How do I set subwoofer phase? (http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en/support/faqs/how-do-i-set-subwoofer-phase-details/)

ahole-ic
01-03-2012, 05:04 PM
yes you can, go back to your failing website. the fact you say you can't proves how clueless you are. oh and I also have more thanks then you have as well. This stupid groan/thank system it useless.
You have more groans than thanks. I think the ratio speaks volumes. Also, where is your website? Until you have made one successful you just go right back to the peanut gallery with all of the other losers. I have forgot more about car audio than you will ever know son. Phasing is important with frequencies that will cancel each other. Since frequencies in the subsonic region can only be cancelled by other frequencies in the same range that are out of phase, your mids are irrelevant because they do not extend that low which is why you have made it clear that you are an idiot. So what does that mean? It means as long as the subs are in phase with each other they won't be affected. If they are 180 degrees out of phase with the source, they are the only things reproducing it so there won't be anything out of phase with them. Man you are stupid!



It changes when the sound reaches your ear. when you realize how long a wave is you can see easily how this changes things.
Phasing is incredibly important. When it comes to two subs that are in phase with each other no matter what, adjusting their phase 0-180 won't make a lick of difference.

duanebro
01-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Do any of you have a measurement system? Phase does make a difference. It is a fact! The issue is more about crossing over from the mids to subs. Out of phase subs will cause a null at the xo point. A measurement system, I use an Omnimic, will show this in seconds.

e-crack, the xo's will always over lap when done correctly. This is the reason phase matters.

Moble Enclosurs
01-05-2012, 05:10 AM
I can See both of your points and some is great to note. But confusion is clear here.
The question of the op is about what to do when he inverts the drivers and what affect that will give on the systems performance. It has been stated, and I will state it as well. It is a good idea to reverse polarity of the drivers when inverting them as long as they are in phase with the system, not themselves. Wenn is right about timing effects and phase being an issue. The reason they are, is that even though a 180 degree switch is given in ac current to complete a full cycle of a some wave, the time it arrives at a specific listening position is critical when dealing not only with crossover frequencies, but the enclosures acoustical changes, such as the common known resonances that occur. These are merely multiples of a harmonic, so they can extend and affect the output of a signal well into the 8th degree if the response is capable of such a curve from the amplifier and system setup. So, polarity is important, but not to be confused with phase. The actual phase of the system will differ from that of a single part of the system, such as the subsystem. This is where polarity is localized to the drivers when they act as a single source of that frequency range. When they act as a whole full range setup, then phase is important more so than polarity as polarity should be figured before combining the system components. In other words, you want to make sure the polarity of each part of the system is done individually before playing them together. Then, the phase is given at specific listening positions and can be more related to direction and distance. So, that being said, do not confuse polarity with phase. They are two different parts of a systems functionality. the changes that occur with what has been stated so far from you guys, is due to physical changes, not electrical. Those physical changes are from enclosure performance. This is where wenn may be confused, but on the right track. Yes, you can notice a change when reversing polarity, but only if the enclosure allows that audible change to occur. If the driver displacement has a large enough volume, and the ratio of that volume greatly affects the volume of the enclosure, then audible changes will occur. So, its really application dependant. But does it have an effect on performance? At higher volumes, not as much. Changing anything about a systems setup will have an effect on everything, but it is the amount of change that is important. In this case, its not major. If having the subs normal mounted and they were in phase with the front stage (i.e. Within 90 degrees ±45) then that is the way it should be wired. Output will only be noticable at the position where in phase correlation occurs. So, if you invert them, wiring should change to keep phase relative. The 180 degree switch will inherently change the way it arrives at the listening position. 180 is not 0. 360 is 0. 180 will have a reverse effect on the sound at the listening point and any resonances that were excited, will be affected, hence lower or higher audible output, again, if the design allows it to be audible. So, experimentation is key in this and should be al2ays tested above any calculations to find what will work the best in your specific setup.

So, if inverting, and it was in phase before, reverse polarity to keep it as close as possible to a system in phase setup as possible. It can easily be explained as four drivers of the same, being utilized for two different purposes, two for each purpose, but you can still wire them in and out of phase. First as a subgroup the bass driver need to be in phase, and the mids need to be in phase, then as a group, they need to be in phase. Changing the polarity of a subgroup will still cause unnatural effects to occur, just as it would in a stereo setup with two driver. And polarity changes when inverting is done to the drivers.

Moble Enclosurs
01-05-2012, 05:20 AM
Furthermore, when you have a system where part of it is in phase and the other part, such as the subsystem is not in phase, you will still get performance from the subsystem. That will not change. There can be a cancellation that occurs when the crossover point is met as said earlier in another post. This is the reason why it is important to wire them correctly. Now, performance individually can be changed as well, such as that from a subwoofer and its box.....which has its own linearity. When it is operating either in or out of phase with the system, it will still have its own performance characteristics that will come into play with or without the rest of the system. so, with reversing polarity in the drivers by either switching wi9res or inverting the drivers, not only does it change the entire response curve, but when part of the response goes out of phase within its own response curve, and it is a ported setup, then the same cancellation or loss of output will occur even before anything else is added to the subsystem. Do you see how important it is to get everything right the first time? Each individual component of a system will have its own characteristics of phase and output and response, and when matched with another system component, it needs to work with it....not against it.

Moble Enclosurs
01-05-2012, 05:22 AM
Notice how I repeat certain words over and over? Very important to know the differences of each and not get them confused or think of them as a whole before you can define each one individually. That is a lesson for anyone getting involved in acoustics.

CAT MAN
01-05-2012, 05:38 AM
Notice how I repeat certain words over and over? Very important to know the differences of each and not get them confused or think of them as a whole before you can define each one individually. That is a lesson for anyone getting involved in acoustics.

you just came in with a novel and schooled all of us......

T.I.K.
01-05-2012, 05:44 AM
Moble, i appreciate spreading the knowledge, but is there anyway we can split this into paragraphs or something?