PDA

View Full Version : Proper sealing of doors when the door panel uses clips to attach to the door



Joseph7195
12-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I have a Dodge Ram Quad Cab and these are not known to be easy SQ vehicles. But a problem I have ran into is trying to seal the door completely. The clips for the door panels are pretty big and isn't allowing me to completely seal the door. Pics below.


Door
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/joseph7195/truck%20doors/doorsontruck001.jpg
Closeup of door
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/joseph7195/truck%20doors/doorsontruck002.jpg
Door Panel
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/joseph7195/truck%20doors/doorsontruck004.jpg
Door Panel
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/joseph7195/truck%20doors/doorsontruck003.jpg


I remembering working on a car a couple years ago that had plastic inserts that would be easy to seal to the door and the panel slide into, but I cannot remember what vehicle it was. I have been trying to think of other door panel mounting options that would allow me to totally seal the door without modifying the panel to be attached without the clips.

I am about to seal all holes (large and small) with sheet metal, hoping to add stiffness to the door and also help with low end response.

It would be cool to hear several idea's and other's experience with this problem, just let me know how you handled the problem and what solutions you would think would work. Thanks!

whitedragon551
12-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Put a layer of closed cell foam and a layer of mass loaded vinyl down. Use 3/8" CCF. You can get it for like $10 for a huge roll of it.

wenn_du_weinst
12-18-2011, 12:43 PM
spray foam in holes then put panel on so it expands around clip

Joseph7195
12-18-2011, 01:37 PM
spray foam in holes then put panel on so it expands around clip
I am still trying to figure out a more effective way to implement your idea. I wonder if I could pop off the the rubber window guide and somehow run a long tube inside the door and then spray the foam on the clips from the inside. Though I will probably won't be able to remove the door panel without trouble either way if something happens to go wrong in the door.


Put a layer of closed cell foam and a layer of mass loaded vinyl down. Use 3/8" CCF. You can get it for like $10 for a huge roll of it.

I like this idea, and i plan on implementing these ideas, but it still leaves me with the problem of mounting the door panel with original hardware. I have a feeling you have had this problem before and the solution was to ditch the factory clips and you found an alternative door panel mounting method. Mr. Dragon, could you link the CCF at that really good price for me and others looking to find it inexpensively? Plus it would make sure others are actually getting the correct stuff.

whitedragon551
12-18-2011, 02:00 PM
To seal off around the clips try since buytl rope from sound deadener showdown.

With ccf you just have to press hard to get the clips back in. I had to hit my panels to get them back on.

Joseph7195
12-18-2011, 03:13 PM
To seal off around the clips try since buytl rope from sound deadener showdown.

With ccf you just have to press hard to get the clips back in. I had to hit my panels to get them back on.

I am afraid this is gonna be my only option. I still need to find the CCF and check it out. I am hoping the flexibility allows me to reuse the factory "slide on" clips. I have also thought about making the factory speaker location larger and just put a small box in it with a great sounding speaker for sealed boxes, and making it so the speaker fits flush to the back of the panel as the old speaker would have. I honestly haven't been able to experiment, but I am guessing the small box will have frequency response drawbacks.

Sleeklsc
12-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Just be glad you don't have a door panel equiped with those f'n plastic push pins.

Imho, don't worry about the holes. I doubt any audible diff will be had in that application.

winkychevelle
12-18-2011, 03:59 PM
same problem here but im gonna go with with dragons idea.im gonna cut squares around the clips and cut out a spot for the clips kinda like making a gasket for every clip

Joseph7195
12-18-2011, 04:38 PM
Just be glad you don't have a door panel equiped with those f'n plastic push pins.

Imho, don't worry about the holes. I doubt any audible diff will be had in that application.

I hear ya, I used to hate my Grand Marquis because of the door panels.
I thought about just letting well enough alone, but with all the comps I have been to and the amount of effort that went into all those SQ vehicles, I know if i slack off even a little, I won't be able to compete along side of them competitively. Plus, I have no life, so I gotta try to keep busy, lol


same problem here but im gonna go with with dragons idea.im gonna cut squares around the clips and cut out a spot for the clips kinda like making a gasket for every clip,
If I gotta make it work like this, I will have to live with it. I was thinking of trying to make small cups/boxes behind the slots the clips slide into and welding them to it to make it seal better. It's a lot of work, but maybe I can figure out a way that won't involve welding. We can only hope, haha

Sleeklsc
12-18-2011, 04:47 PM
I hear ya, I used to hate my Grand Marquis because of the door panels.
I thought about just letting well enough alone, but with all the comps I have been to and the amount of effort that went into all those SQ vehicles, I know if i slack off even a little, I won't be able to compete along side of them competitively. Plus, I have no life, so I gotta try to keep busy, lol

,
If I gotta make it work like this, I will have to live with it. I was thinking of trying to make small cups/boxes behind the slots the clips slide into and welding them to it to make it seal better. It's a lot of work, but maybe I can figure out a way that won't involve welding. We can only hope, haha

lol, a little **** are we :) If it bothers you that much then you mine aswell do it while your in there.

I had a 98 marquis before this mark viii and it had the hook's like my present car. People often snap them off cause they think it's the pushpin type panel. Let's just say I had to use alot of plastic epoxy on the marquis to fix mechanic mistakes. Overall I do like the hooks better, makes removel/install alot easier.

Joseph7195
12-18-2011, 05:50 PM
lol, a little **** are we :) If it bothers you that much then you mine aswell do it while your in there.

I had a 98 marquis before this mark viii and it had the hook's like my present car. People often snap them off cause they think it's the pushpin type panel. Let's just say I had to use alot of plastic epoxy on the marquis to fix mechanic mistakes. Overall I do like the hooks better, makes removel/install alot easier.

Ha Ha :iagree: It used to be simple in SPL comps. The sub enclosure was the most important factor in the install. I actually miss it sometimes. With SQ, it seems like nothing I do is working like I thought it would. But it's fun, and I get to keep doing my audio's!

keep_hope_alive
12-18-2011, 08:54 PM
one option is to say f- the clips and screw the door panel on. you can get screws with a plastic cap ring so the final product is something that looks factory. this may be tricky to do well, but any clip is a poor method to attach a door panel when midbass is desired. screws are preferred over plastic clips IMO. you can usually hide the screws in the edges that are not visible when the door is closed, and certainly behind a removable window controls/door latch.

you can get stupid strong magnets and just use them to hold the door panel on using fewer screws. the toughest part about this is finding glue to hold the magnets on, but the final product would have better aesthetic appeal.

i agree the ideal solution is to eliminate those clips completely.

i see you are also missing foam along the front of the speaker - you want to seal to the door panel as well.

the cheapest price i've seen on 1/8" 1lb/sf MLV (I specify the stuff a lot in commercial applications) is acoustical duct lagging products (typically have a foil scrim) - like 40sf - 50sf for ~30 +shipping. ebay has a few suppliers in the building insulation section.

i don't like the idea to seal around the plastic clip because you are still engaging the door panel and the panel will vibrate. really, your best bet for SQ is a fiberglass door pod with adequate airspace for the desired Q of the woofer system. driver selection plays a role when airspace is limited (i.e. surface mounted door pod). the door cavity can work, but requires a lot of deadening, never fully seals, and then the window seals are a weak point that become a blatant leak when the windows are down.

Joseph7195
12-19-2011, 07:10 AM
one option is to say f- the clips and screw the door panel on. you can get screws with a plastic cap ring so the final product is something that looks factory. this may be tricky to do well, but any clip is a poor method to attach a door panel when midbass is desired. screws are preferred over plastic clips IMO. you can usually hide the screws in the edges that are not visible when the door is closed, and certainly behind a removable window controls/door latch.


you can get stupid strong magnets and just use them to hold the door panel on using fewer screws. the toughest part about this is finding glue to hold the magnets on, but the final product would have better aesthetic appeal.


i see you are also missing foam along the front of the speaker - you want to seal to the door panel as well.

the cheapest price i've seen on 1/8" 1lb/sf MLV (I specify the stuff a lot in commercial applications) is acoustical duct lagging products (typically have a foil scrim) - like 40sf - 50sf for ~30 +shipping. ebay has a few suppliers in the building insulation section.

i don't like the idea to seal around the plastic clip because you are still engaging the door panel and the panel will vibrate. really, your best bet for SQ is a fiberglass door pod with adequate airspace for the desired Q of the woofer system. driver selection plays a role when airspace is limited (i.e. surface mounted door pod). the door cavity can work, but requires a lot of deadening, never fully seals, and then the window seals are a weak point that become a blatant leak when the windows are down.

I think ultimately I will end up having to rid myself of the clips. The screw method was my first choice considering how much modification I will be doing to this truck for SQ comps, I don't plan on selling my truck, so I guess i can replace with screws and drop the clips.

This was also another one of my concerns because of de-fraction. I know at some live concerts I have done, I used separate mids and highs, and sub enclosures. This was done mainly for staging and to keep from having the left and right of the stage being able to hear the show clearly, and then center of the stage to hear things as though they were muffled. I was wondering that in such a small environment(in a car) would I have the same de-fraction issues because the speaker is mounted behind a door panel instead of flush with the panel? Hence why I haven't foamed everything up yet(I haven't been able to experiment lately due to not being able to walk, a couple weeks and I will be walking again :hihorse: ) and I didn't want to modify everything until I knew the answer.



and for the pods, this is what I was thinking too, if I was to use a door pod of some type, I can control the speaker's working environment better, and make changes to the pod to get my desired results. But, like you said, I will have to pick the speaker first and make the pod according to the speaker. Thank you so much!! :respekt:

Jroo
12-19-2011, 01:56 PM
It looks like you have deadened the door pretty decent and done some work to deaden the panel itself. I would do the MLV and the closed cell foam. I would just make the holes a little bit smaller so you have to really work the clips back in. Im not sure how far you want to take this, but you have already done more than a good majority of people would do. Short of adding more deading and trying to add more mass/deading to the door panel, you are going to have to do something really custom to improve upon what you have already.

kramer_212
12-19-2011, 02:13 PM
although it is going to take some time, i second the screw idea.

JoshC
12-19-2011, 02:19 PM
how many feet of deadner did it take to cover both your doors? Im about to do the doors of my 08 ram

Sleeklsc
12-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Screws would be a horrible idea. Just put some foam back there. Believe me, you'll be kicking yourself in the *** in the future if you drill up those panels. Something i've learned with age is that some things are just better off left alone.

If it was a pos like alot of car's i've seen on here then I'd say do whatever the fu ck you want, this doesn't fall in that category.

Nut Hair Trick
12-19-2011, 02:34 PM
I'm kind of in the same boat. I just CLD CCF and MLV'd my doors and I cant get those f'n plastic push pins to engage to the door to seal it. Right now, I just have the 2 bolts in the door handle and 1 bolt at the top of the door holding them on. If I were to go the screw route, would self tapping screws work?

Joseph7195
12-19-2011, 03:24 PM
It looks like you have deadened the door pretty decent and done some work to deaden the panel itself. I would do the MLV and the closed cell foam. I would just make the holes a little bit smaller so you have to really work the clips back in. Im not sure how far you want to take this, but you have already done more than a good majority of people would do. Short of adding more deading and trying to add more mass/deading to the door panel, you are going to have to do something really custom to improve upon what you have already.

Thanks man, it was a lot of work doing all the doors, and it made a world of difference for sure. It's one of the most important investments I have made in my truck audio-wise I believe. I was gonna do exactly what you were thinking too. I am gonna add sheet metal over the openings in the door and then recover with deadener and I hope the added stiffness will help get my midbass response up. Even with just what I have done so far, I was able to get the response down from around 80hz to mid to high 60hzs, but when I turn it up louder, the bass seems to just seems to disappear, lol


how many feet of deadner did it take to cover both your doors? Im about to do the doors of my 08 ram

I believe it took about 40 sq feet for all 4 doors, but the front doors are a little larger than the back. And don't doubt it on these trucks, it's well worth it to deaden it!


Screws would be a horrible idea. Just put some foam back there. Believe me, you'll be kicking yourself in the *** in the future if you drill up those panels. Something i've learned with age is that some things are just better off left alone.

If it was a pos like alot of car's i've seen on here then I'd say do whatever the fu ck you want, this doesn't fall in that category.

I am looking into adding screws around the perimeter, only if I can figure out a way to make it blend in really well.


I'm kind of in the same boat. I just CLD CCF and MLV'd my doors and I cant get those f'n plastic push pins to engage to the door to seal it. Right now, I just have the 2 bolts in the door handle and 1 bolt at the top of the door holding them on. If I were to go the screw route, would self tapping screws work?

I remember seeing somewhere (either autozone or Oreilly's) some self tapping screws that were in several different colors and had small plastic washers around the head. The only problem I couldn't figure out was they didn't look long enough to go through the panel and the deadener, MLV and CCF. They were only like 1.5" inches long. I have been searching since I got home for some that were longer than those, cause those would probably work well and blend in too. If I can find them, I will make sure I send you the link!

JoshC
12-19-2011, 03:47 PM
well i have a single cab so i only have the 2 front doors to do, but im gettin 25cuft

Joseph7195
12-19-2011, 03:58 PM
well i have a single cab so i only have the 2 front doors to do, but im gettin 25cuft

You should be good then. A little off topic, but how do you like those Hertz front stage? I have heard great things about them.

trumpet
12-19-2011, 05:54 PM
When I treated my front doors, which use the same type of hooks to secure the interior panels, I mostly left those holes alone. I did have to cut off two hooks per panel since I unintentionally covered the hole they fit into, but on the other ones I didn't do anything to seal them. If I were trying to do a subless install I would probably have made more of an effort, but for a midbass application it seems to be working quite well.

For those who suggest adding even more mass to the doors, let me share a forum thread that might give someone ideas. I'm posting this partly because I'm getting the impression people are applying too much CLD, well past diminishing returns.
I'm over CLD on the doors (http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f15/im-over-cld-doors-42/)

Let's try to remember this hobby is about enjoying music as we drive, and not about listening to our speakers. :)

cablguy184
01-26-2012, 02:42 AM
You should be good then. A little off topic, but how do you like those Hertz front stage? I have heard great things about them.
Joseph ... Bring your truck to me, I can fix you up with these doors (if you haven't taken care of this already) ...
Let me know, I will be glad to help ...

Joseph7195
01-26-2012, 09:04 AM
Thanks Mr Johnson! I will probably come to make a visit in the near future. I am about to have to rebuild my rear in in my truck (it's a corporate 9.25" rear-end) so it won't be easy at all. I am about to buy a small welder too. i was thinking of tacking in some metal panel supports in the doors and on the roof and rear cab area to help stiffen things up.

It is a low power welder, do you know if I took my time and tack welded at different points (so as to not heat up the metal in one spot too much) would it still cause the paint to discolor or peel on the outside. That's the only thing i am worried about

cablguy184
01-26-2012, 09:08 AM
Best of luck on that job bro ...
Sorry, I'm not a welder, I can't help you there ...

VWBobby
01-26-2012, 09:24 AM
You can buy butyl rope from most auto parts stores or autobody supply places. Sometimes its called strip caulk :-/

They also make a cool product that is butyl setting tape.
CRL Black Butyl Setting Tape and Adhesive. CRL 1303 - Filmtools (http://www.filmtools.com/butyl.html)

Closed cell foam can be bought at upholstery shops or some fabric stores. Some major cities have foam rubber supply places that carry all types of foam. :)

I agree that a solid attachment like a screw would be best. However, if the clips are tight fitting and don't rattle, sealing with butyl rope/tape or foam should be adequate?

Joseph7195
01-26-2012, 09:42 AM
You can buy butyl rope from most auto parts stores or autobody supply places. Sometimes its called strip caulk :-/

They also make a cool product that is butyl setting tape.
CRL Black Butyl Setting Tape and Adhesive. CRL 1303 - Filmtools (http://www.filmtools.com/butyl.html)

Closed cell foam can be bought at upholstery shops or some fabric stores. Some major cities have foam rubber supply places that carry all types of foam. :)

I agree that a solid attachment like a screw would be best. However, if the clips are tight fitting and don't rattle, sealing with butyl rope/tape or foam should be adequate?

Thanks for the link Bro! That's the best price on butyl rope I have seen yet. I am still trying to figure out the easiest and cleanest way to get these door panels to work right. Since it will be for SQ competing, I am trying to not cut corners, but I don't won't to waste my time doing the unnecessary either. I found replacement doors at a junk yard for about $400 bucks, so if I end up messing up something with my "test" door, I probably won't have to pay thousands for a replacement

keep_hope_alive
01-26-2012, 02:07 PM
when it comes to competition, i'm not sure any extra effort is a waste of time. :)

you want rigidity and mass so it's quiet and non-resonant, you want airtight seals so you don't have response issues, and you want ease of removal.

screw heads with colored covers are commonly used in cosmetic applications.
SNAP-CAPS ® Screw Covers (http://www.pro-dec.com/snap-caps)

HINGED SNAP-CAPS® Screw Covers/Screw Caps (http://www.pro-dec.com/snap-caps-hinged-screw-covers)

i just found this site. wish i had seen it sooner!

galacticmonkey
01-26-2012, 02:15 PM
I guarantee there will be absolutely no audible difference if the door is 99% sealed or 100% sealed. Ive sealed/deadened many a door panel, and there is no such thing as a 100% seal. Theres always going to be the possibility of a little air escaping around the clips, or some other part of the door. Heck, even if the front of the door is sealed 100%, theres still a hole for the window to go through and drains in the bottom of the door to let any rainwater out in the event that some slips past the weather seal around the window. But the fact is, its only a single tiny speaker in the door. It wont/cant displace enough air to make any difference.

Dont do anything where youre going to ruin your door, or make it impossible to get it back off when there wont be any sound difference.

JoshC
01-26-2012, 02:15 PM
You should be good then. A little off topic, but how do you like those Hertz front stage? I have heard great things about them.

Really sounds good now with my doors done and DD T2's in the dash. Feeding em 90watts from a DB drive A5

Lots of good midbass, very clear. They dont lack at all response wise either, used 25ft for both doors lol audiotechnix 60mil i did inside and out of door

26530098

Joseph7195
01-26-2012, 02:30 PM
when it comes to competition, i'm not sure any extra effort is a waste of time. :)

you want rigidity and mass so it's quiet and non-resonant, you want airtight seals so you don't have response issues, and you want ease of removal.

screw heads with colored covers are commonly used in cosmetic applications.
SNAP-CAPS ® Screw Covers (http://www.pro-dec.com/snap-caps)

HINGED SNAP-CAPS® Screw Covers/Screw Caps (http://www.pro-dec.com/snap-caps-hinged-screw-covers)

i just found this site. wish i had seen it sooner!


Well, I tell you what, I have been looking for these caps for over a month. They are very reasonably priced too. I think if I took a block of plastic and epoxied it to the inside of the door panel and counter-sink it, it would give more stiffness to the panel to hold stronger, and also recess the cap a little to help with blending.

Now all I have to do is figure out the welding thing. I may just try to epoxy all the steel strips instead of taking the chance of having to replace or re-paint the doors if I weld them

keep_hope_alive
01-26-2012, 07:24 PM
I guarantee there will be absolutely no audible difference if the door is 99% sealed or 100% sealed. Ive sealed/deadened many a door panel, and there is no such thing as a 100% seal. Theres always going to be the possibility of a little air escaping around the clips, or some other part of the door. Heck, even if the front of the door is sealed 100%, theres still a hole for the window to go through and drains in the bottom of the door to let any rainwater out in the event that some slips past the weather seal around the window. But the fact is, its only a single tiny speaker in the door. It wont/cant displace enough air to make any difference.

Dont do anything where youre going to ruin your door, or make it impossible to get it back off when there wont be any sound difference.

The ML-165 in the Scion displaces enough air that any leaks have audible (and tactile) air movement. The thing with small holes is that they can make air noise and whistle. You'll never be 100% sealed because of the window seals and drain holes. but what we care about is opening that will affect the door panel. once you add deadener and/or foams, you thicken the material at the holes - so the clips won't fit anymore. you really should avoid deadener or foam around the clips themselves so the factory clips fit.

the the OP's case - those clips ****. I would replace them with screws without a second thought. Screws done well (with nice matching caps) can look just fine and the door panel will be silent. there are many factory door panels that are held with screws along the bottom and side edges. there are other factory screws on top and middle behind panels/trim. usually the top slides on and grips the top of the window opening - so no top screws/clips are necessary.

in short - adding screws doesn't ruin a car - a successful SQ build will usually modify factory and go a step above, including introducing new fasteners.

VWBobby
01-26-2012, 10:18 PM
Thanks for the link Bro! That's the best price on butyl rope I have seen yet.

No problem man! Always here to help. If you want to use epoxy instead of welding for the metal strips, it will work great. Automotive epoxy or urethane adhesive is commonly used on panels for non-structural repairs. 3M, Norton, Lord Fusor - are all some brands of automotive adhesives. I'm a moderator on autobody101.com. ;) If you need any help with autobody, feel free to PM me or check out the site.