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View Full Version : Showdown: RF vs Polk



emilimo701
07-26-2010, 02:06 AM
i know i'm being a b**ch but i can't make up my mind...
Rockford Fosgate Power T1652-S (http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?item_id=112904&locale=en_US) for $170
or
Polk Audio MM6501 (http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/specs/6-1-2/speakers/mm6501/) for $200
?

In the mail, I have coming a pair of Rockford T-1652 coaxials (http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?cat_id=3&series_id=34&family_id=15&item_id=112897&locale=en_US) for my rear stage, and a Hifonics ZXi150.4 (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_24116_Hifonics+Zeus+ZXi150.4.html) amp with these specs:
150w x 4 @ 4Ω (.05% THD)
300w x 4 @ 2Ω
S/N 80dB
damping factor >180

If i dislike the sound of the rockford coaxials i get, i'll clearly go with the Polk. But i've seen pretty much only good reviews about both. The Polks supposedly handle 25 more watts and have 2.7 ohm impedance; so by my calculations they will receive 222 (right?) watts instead of 150, meaning i can lower the gain to achieve the same loudness relative to the rockfords. But the T1s will match my rears, and they look damm **** (which is a plus, because they will be exposed in my temp setup, and maybe perm) and i'm also guessing they might be underrated.

Help? I'm assuming since they are fairly popular/common products, i might be able to find a few people who have heard both. I think Misfit is one of those people.

emilimo701
07-26-2010, 02:37 AM
Phoenix Gold RSD65CS 6.5" 120W Component Speaker System (http://www.dealercostcaraudio.com/rsd65cs.aspx)

thanks for the suggestion!

power handling might be a little too low though? i forgot to mention that i plan on cranking the Zues. not turning the gain up to 100% (i want it to last lol) but i'm hoping to get at least 2/3 of its rated power out of it, or as loud as possible without risking the safety of the amp/speakers. Not only will i be listening to music in the car, but also for tailgating where i might turn it louder than usual. This is a kind of temporary setup, but it will be used for at least a few months, and might use whatever i end up getting for my new car when i get it

emilimo701
07-27-2010, 02:27 PM
bump. opinionz?

bigaudiofanatic
07-27-2010, 03:29 PM
Polk over RF everyday for speakers

Suicide Bobb
07-27-2010, 06:31 PM
Polk over RF everyday for speakers

This ^^^

FlexnInLa
07-29-2010, 04:00 PM
Hybrid Audio Imagine series?

kevin lu
07-30-2010, 01:49 AM
Hybrid Audio Imagine series?
for sure

emilimo701
07-30-2010, 01:55 AM
haha i've heard of those. i've seen mixed opinions. how do they handle power? they don't list the specs on their site

BassnTruck
07-30-2010, 12:18 PM
thanks for the suggestion!

power handling might be a little too low though? i forgot to mention that i plan on cranking the Zues. not turning the gain up to 100% (i want it to last lol) but i'm hoping to get at least 2/3 of its rated power out of it, or as loud as possible without risking the safety of the amp/speakers. Not only will i be listening to music in the car, but also for tailgating where i might turn it louder than usual. This is a kind of temporary setup, but it will be used for at least a few months, and might use whatever i end up getting for my new car when i get it

You set your gains according to what is feeding the amp. It is not a volume knob. I am sure there are plenty of write ups around here on the subject.

emilimo701
07-30-2010, 03:28 PM
You set your gains according to what is feeding the amp.

what? that's what the transformer inside the amp is for


It is not a volume knob.

well, yes it basically is. it's a potentiometer affecting the amplitude of the output signal...

FlexnInLa
07-30-2010, 03:42 PM
haha i've heard of those. i've seen mixed opinions. how do they handle power? they don't list the specs on their site

Never heard a bad thing about the HAT Imagines, only comparisons to speaker that cost twice as much or more.

Manual says 100 watts continuous, 230 watts peak.

BassnTruck
07-30-2010, 05:49 PM
what? that's what the transformer inside the amp is for



well, yes it basically is. it's a potentiometer affecting the amplitude of the output signal...


/facepalm

emilimo701
07-30-2010, 06:01 PM
/facepalm

dude seriously. i pwnd u. if for still for some reason you think you can explain what you were trying to say then say it. dont try to cover up by doing a cute /facepalm thing!

;)

if you can successfully explain the magical difference between a gain & volume potentiometer (besides how some may integrated at different points on the circuit -- different means to same end) i will mail you a cookie. chocolate chip.

FlexnInLa
07-30-2010, 07:52 PM
Can I have a cookie if I explain. And seriously, listen to the HAT Imagine series if you can, or higher up in the series if your pockets are deeper than mine.

fasfocus00
07-30-2010, 07:55 PM
Polk over RF everyday for speakers

this.

Polk only makes/sells speakers, if they have any series of speaker that ***** the whole company will fail. if RF has a speaker that sux, ppl just use their amps/wire/signal processors/etc... Polk will not put out a bad set of speakers unless they have other types of products that can keep their business running.

whitedragon551
07-30-2010, 08:05 PM
You set your gains according to what is feeding the amp. It is not a volume knob. I am sure there are plenty of write ups around here on the subject.


what? that's what the transformer inside the amp is for

well, yes it basically is. it's a potentiometer affecting the amplitude of the output signal...

You didnt pwn anyone. The GAIN IS NOT A VOLUME KNOB. The gain can cause an amp to send a clipped signal to the speakers if its not set right causing the speakers to blow and may even hurt the amp. Match the gain to the HU voltage with a DMM or o-scope to prevent this. BTW /facepalm on your part.

whitedragon551
07-30-2010, 08:07 PM
this.

Polk only makes/sells speakers, if they have any series of speaker that ***** the whole company will fail. if RF has a speaker that sux, ppl just use their amps/wire/signal processors/etc... Polk will not put out a bad set of speakers unless they have other types of products that can keep their business running.

Polk makes amps.

BassnTruck
07-30-2010, 10:10 PM
dude seriously. i pwnd u. if for still for some reason you think you can explain what you were trying to say then say it. dont try to cover up by doing a cute /facepalm thing!

;)

if you can successfully explain the magical difference between a gain & volume potentiometer (besides how some may integrated at different points on the circuit -- different means to same end) i will mail you a cookie. chocolate chip.

Your spouting of the mouth in everything you post, about topics you know nothing about shows your ignorance. And your little e-ego. LOLUMAD? /facepalm

emilimo701
07-30-2010, 11:36 PM
smartasses fail because they say that they "know" yet they refuse to explain.

first result on a google search....
Amplifier gain controls - setting your gain (http://www.teamrocs.com/technical/pages/gains.htm)
"Gain controls on an amplifier are basically just small potentiometers (variable resistors) or volume controls if you will, that allow you to adjust the incoming signal to the amplifier so the amplifier works well with your headunit of choice or to match the level of other amplifiers in your system.

Its not rocket science to set the gains. Gains are like little volume controls, (I don't know why so many installers are taught that gains are NOT volume controls, when in fact that is EXACTLY what they are!) its super simple to just set them where the level sounds good to you.
"

I am the son and brother of an electrical engineer. I come here because they cannot spend half their day helping me out and expalaining things to me. Nor do they have specific background in car audio (though my father spent years as a radio station technician).

Just because I am hot-headed, and sometimes too eager to come to conclusions, does not make me ignorant. I believe that knowledge is power, and about this stuff I truly want to LEARN. But when somebody says to me "hey, you're wrong" and does not give any inclination that they are ready to back up their "knowledge" then i will act like an ******* in return.

Give me credentials (i.e. degree in engineering, 10 years as an installer, etc) and i will give you some credit or benefit of the doubt. but when you come in here with a double-digit post count and tell me i'm wrong or ignorant when i'm 99% sure i do know what i'm talking about, don't expect me to take your comments with anything more than a grain of salt.

/end rant

whitedragon551
07-30-2010, 11:42 PM
smartasses fail because they say that they "know" yet they refuse to explain.

first result on a google search....
Amplifier gain controls - setting your gain (http://www.teamrocs.com/technical/pages/gains.htm)
"Gain controls on an amplifier are basically just small potentiometers (variable resistors) or volume controls if you will, that allow you to adjust the incoming signal to the amplifier so the amplifier works well with your headunit of choice or to match the level of other amplifiers in your system.

Its not rocket science to set the gains. Gains are like little volume controls, (I don't know why so many installers are taught that gains are NOT volume controls, when in fact that is EXACTLY what they are!) its super simple to just set them where the level sounds good to you.
"

I am the son and brother of an electrical engineer. I come here because they cannot spend half their day helping me out and expalaining things to me. Nor do they have specific background in car audio (though my father spent years as a radio station technician).

Just because I am hot-headed, and sometimes too eager to come to conclusions, does not make me ignorant. I believe that knowledge is power, and about this stuff I truly want to LEARN. But when somebody says to me "hey, you're wrong" and does not give any inclination that they are ready to back up their "knowledge" then i will act like an ******* in return.

Give me credentials (i.e. degree in engineering, 10 years as an installer, etc) and i will give you some credit or benefit of the doubt. but when you come in here with a double-digit post count and tell me i'm wrong or ignorant when i'm 99% sure i do know what i'm talking about, don't expect me to take your comments with anything more than a grain of salt.

/end rant

First of all I gave you a basic explanation. Second of all you need some college. Does that site look reputable to you? It doesnt have a date that it was last edited, it doesnt give the writers credentials, or anything like that. How do you know that guy isnt some jackass just posting random **** on the net so people like you will fvck up your gear?

Basic Car Audio Electronics (http://www.bcae1.com/)

Section 63 is Gain Controls

In another thread I linked you to that site and said read the entire thing and learn it. You have failed.

emilimo701
07-30-2010, 11:59 PM
First of all I gave you a basic explanation. Second of all you need some college. Does that site look reputable to you? It doesnt have a date that it was last edited, it doesnt give the writers credentials, or anything like that. How do you know that guy isnt some jackass just posting random **** on the net so people like you will fvck up your gear?

Basic Car Audio Electronics (http://www.bcae1.com/)

Section 63 is Gain Controls

In another thread I linked you to that site and said read the entire thing and learn it. You have failed.

Okay, I will take a deep breath here. I think what is making you confused is the voltage ratings. In Perry's diagrams (and on many amps) the potentiometer is labeled with voltages. Those voltage ratings (as Perry describes, if you read it correctly) are the input voltages needed to amplify the signal to a currect strong enough to match the rating of the amp. if you give the amp too much potential, you may fry it even if you have the gain set all the way down. if you don't give the amp enough potential, it will not exceed its rated power and the output would be highly clipped.

There is no magic behind this. The gain control knob is there because not all head units send out the same voltage. Also, it gives the user the option to make his/her music quieter than its ratings. There is very little difference in theory in the function of the potentiometer on your amplifier versus the function of the potentiometer of your boom box or whatever actively powered system that has a "volume" knob. potentiometers are placed before relevant amplification, some after (or even both. when i used to play guitar, i had an amp that had a "pre" gain and "post" gain in case you wanted peripheral effects).

And I'm sorry that webpage didn't have credentials, I should have thought of that. But basically what I was trying to get across was that explanations of "there is no difference" are far thoroughly explained than anything I have found claiming that there is some magical property in the potentiometers of car audio amps that make them a higher deity than lowly volume knobs.

Gain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain)

whenever i see somebody say "make sure a professional sets your gains for you" i just laugh to myself.

and yes, for those who ask "umadbro?", yes. i'm mad.

whitedragon551
07-31-2010, 12:14 AM
Okay, I will take a deep breath here. I think what is making you confused is the voltage ratings. In Perry's diagrams (and on many amps) the potentiometer is labeled with voltages. Those voltage ratings (as Perry describes, if you read it correctly) are the input voltages needed to amplify the signal to a currect strong enough to match the rating of the amp. if you give the amp too much potential, you may fry it even if you have the gain set all the way down. if you don't give the amp enough potential, it will not exceed its rated power and the output would be highly clipped.

There is no magic behind this. The gain control knob is there because not all head units send out the same voltage. Also, it gives the user the option to make his/her music quieter than its ratings. There is very little difference in theory in the function of the potentiometer on your amplifier versus the function of the potentiometer of your boom box or whatever actively powered system that has a "volume" knob. potentiometers are placed before relevant amplification, some after (or even both. when i used to play guitar, i had an amp that had a "pre" gain and "post" gain in case you wanted peripheral effects).

And I'm sorry that webpage didn't have credentials, I should have thought of that. But basically what I was trying to get across was that explanations of "there is no difference" are far thoroughly explained than anything I have found claiming that there is some magical property in the potentiometers of car audio amps that make them a higher deity than lowly volume knobs.

Gain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain)

whenever i see somebody say "make sure a professional sets your gains for you" i just laugh to myself.

and yes, for those who ask "umadbro?", yes. i'm mad.

No confusion on my part. I understand what the gain knob is and how to use it.

Again with a horrible research link. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.

There is an equation to figure out what to set your gain at with a DMM. Setting it any higher than that voltage will likely send a clipped signal to your speakers/subs, doing so will damage them eventually. Its not a case of if, its when. ALL amps are different in terms of when they start clipping in respect to the gain meter.

I dont know how to tell you any other way, but it is what it is. And it IS NOT A VOLUME KNOB.

emilimo701
07-31-2010, 12:22 AM
There is an equation to figure out what to set your gain at with a DMM. Setting it any higher than that voltage will likely send a clipped signal to your speakers/subs, doing so will damage them eventually. Its not a case of if, its when. ALL amps are different in terms of when they start clipping in respect to the gain meter.

i understand and agree with you


I dont know how to tell you any other way, but it is what it is. And it IS NOT A VOLUME KNOB.

ugh. just like ON ANY VOLUME KNOB you can clip and distort the signal. The same precautions that go with your amplifier also go with your boom box or whatever. No volume knob, except for maybe a few in very high end products that suspect their customers are idiots, are meant to be turned up 100%.

Note that NOWHERE on Perry's page does it say "hey, be careful, that gain knob isn't a volume knob!"

whitedragon551
07-31-2010, 12:31 AM
i understand and agree with you

ugh. just like ON ANY VOLUME KNOB you can clip and distort the signal. The same precautions that go with your amplifier also go with your boom box or whatever. No volume knob, except for maybe a few in very high end products that suspect their customers are idiots, are meant to be turned up 100%.

Note that NOWHERE on Perry's page does it say "hey, be careful, that gain knob isn't a volume knob!"

You still didnt read the page.

Since when does matching a gain on the HU preout voltage to the amp input voltage mean your turning up the volume on your music? It doesnt, therefore its not a volume knob. The only thing it does is match the voltage so the signal is as clean as possible, nothing more, nothing less.

Using your theory that its a volume knob a person would want to get all the sound out of it they could. This means turn it up as high as it goes so it gets as loud as it can.


Contrary to popular belief, an amplifiers gain control does not determine the maximum power that an amplifier can produce. As long as the preamp/drive signal has sufficient level, the amplifier will produce its maximum power output level. The gain controls are used to match the amplifer's gain to the gain of the other amplifiers in the system (in the case of a multi-amp system). The gain controls also allow you to match the amplifier(s) to the head unit. Not all head units have the same maximum preamp output voltage. Some head units are capable of producing 9 vrms out while others are only capable of 1.5 vrms out.

If the gains are set too high, the amp will be driven into clipping at a very low volume level (on the head unit).

Again using your theory note that he doesnt say "hey the gain knob is a volume control".

emilimo701
07-31-2010, 12:38 AM
You still didnt read the page.

Since when does matching a gain on the HU preout voltage to the amp input voltage mean your turning up the volume on your music? It doesnt, therefore its not a volume knob. The only thing it does is match the voltage so the signal is as clean as possible, nothing more, nothing less.

Using your theory that its a volume knob a person would want to get all the sound out of it they could. This means turn it up as high as it goes so it gets as loud as it can.



Again using your theory note that he doesnt say "hey the gain knob is a volume control".

ugh. you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink...

you are just as stubborn, if not more, than i am my friend. i officially give up on trying to disabuse you

whitedragon551
07-31-2010, 12:39 AM
ugh. you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink...

you are just as stubborn, if not more, than i am my friend

Except I know what Im talking about.

Your a class A troll. No wonder nobody helps you. You dont want to learn. You get told time and time again, you get pointed to valuable sources time and time again, you fail to read time and time again, yet you still spew verbal diarrhea like you know what your talking about. Good luck with your build.

emilimo701
07-31-2010, 12:48 AM
Except I know what Im talking about.

don't we all?


Your a class A troll. No wonder nobody helps you. You dont want to learn. You get told time and time again, you get pointed to valuable sources time and time again, you fail to read time and time again, yet you still spew verbal diarrhea like you know what your talking about. Good luck with your build.

you can yell at me all you want. i really don't care. i'm not a troll; i have better things to do than get my rocks off deceiving an online community. unlike a lot of people on here, i'm willing to back up my arguments, and i'm willing to keep arguing, even if i end up being wrong. one thing i am not is a coward. if i make a mistake, false accusation, or anything of the like, i will admit to it. now if you want to continue this discussion somewhere other than the molasses-slow confines of a message board, i'd love to. if you PM me i will give you my screen name or phone number.

i just will not apologize for arguing something i think is right. i MAY BE WRONG. i am human. but there's no need for half the castigation that goes on on these boards...

KyleBechtold
07-31-2010, 12:50 AM
You didnt pwn anyone. The GAIN IS NOT A VOLUME KNOB. The gain can cause an amp to send a clipped signal to the speakers if its not set right causing the speakers to blow and may even hurt the amp. Match the gain to the HU voltage with a DMM or o-scope to prevent this. BTW /facepalm on your part.


No confusion on my part. I understand what the gain knob is and how to use it.

Again with a horrible research link. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.

There is an equation to figure out what to set your gain at with a DMM. Setting it any higher than that voltage will likely send a clipped signal to your speakers/subs, doing so will damage them eventually. Its not a case of if, its when. ALL amps are different in terms of when they start clipping in respect to the gain meter.

I dont know how to tell you any other way, but it is what it is. And it IS NOT A VOLUME KNOB.

You are wrong my friend.. Why do you think you set the "GAIN"(volume) on the h.u to your likings when tuning the amp. the h.u basically has a gain and it sends output to the amp.. the amp has a gain and it sends output to the speakers.. thats why if you turn the volume up the voltage out from the h.u goes up.. same for the gain on the amp.. so you are telling me that if for example I set my h.u volume to 56 of 62 and use an OSCOPE to set the amp properly and then permanently leave the h.u alone and turn use a GAIN knob and turn it up and down versus the h.u that my music won't go up and down?
Just because it might not have a 1-62 numbered scale doesn't mean its not a volume knob.. its all in how you use it. Sure most people don't use it that way.

and you saying amps clip at a certain point is also relevant to h/u's some start to send clipped signals to amps when you get close to their max volume..

the main reason the gain on the amps is not used as often as the h.u is the h.u combines all the outputs and makes one turn of the knob make all the volume go down and also most people don't have gain knobs minus for there sub amps

emilimo701
07-31-2010, 01:05 AM
Does that site look reputable to you? It doesnt have a date that it was last edited, it doesnt give the writers credentials, or anything like that. How do you know that guy isnt some jackass just posting random **** on the net so people like you will fvck up your gear?

It did have his name though; let me Google him for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eddie+runner)

Eddie Runner's personal webpage, stating, and giving links to, his credentials (http://www.twfer.com/)

whitedragon551
07-31-2010, 06:02 AM
You are wrong my friend.. Why do you think you set the "GAIN"(volume) on the h.u to your likings when tuning the amp. the h.u basically has a gain and it sends output to the amp.. the amp has a gain and it sends output to the speakers.. thats why if you turn the volume up the voltage out from the h.u goes up.. same for the gain on the amp.. so you are telling me that if for example I set my h.u volume to 56 of 62 and use an OSCOPE to set the amp properly and then permanently leave the h.u alone and turn use a GAIN knob and turn it up and down versus the h.u that my music won't go up and down?
Just because it might not have a 1-62 numbered scale doesn't mean its not a volume knob.. its all in how you use it. Sure most people don't use it that way.

and you saying amps clip at a certain point is also relevant to h/u's some start to send clipped signals to amps when you get close to their max volume..

the main reason the gain on the amps is not used as often as the h.u is the h.u combines all the outputs and makes one turn of the knob make all the volume go down and also most people don't have gain knobs minus for there sub amps

Thats not what I said.

Let me put this in as basic terms as possible. You can either choose to or choose not to use the gain on your HU, bass, treble, what ever else you want to do. People who want to reduce the chances of sending a clipped signal from the headunit leave those settings at 0 and tune at the amp for a certain max volume on the HU. When you tune with a DMM you still check at the speaker terminals with a DMM on the voltage. All of those settings affect the the gain that you will want to match the amp to.

Theoretically they should be the same, but in practice they are not. Last time I checked there is no volume knob out there that is made to match gains. They simply turn up or down the volume. The gain knob is there to match voltage gains only.

As for finding some speakers that get loud as balls. Look for the Diamond Audio S600A or the D662A comps. There are a few sets here in the forums for sale, but they are the S model number which is silk tweeter instead of aluminum. Ill tell you right now the Diamond Audio Hex aluminum tweets are very loud and crystal clear even on HU power.

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/481871-fs-diamond-audio-d6-component-set.html

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/484849-fs-diamond-audio-s600s-hex-6-1-2s-still-smell-new.html

kevin lu
07-31-2010, 10:27 PM
Which speakers are better? RF or Polk?