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BlackMaxima
01-04-2010, 04:04 AM
for my 3 way front stage this is what im thinking about getting


Tweeter: Scan-Speak Illuminator R3004/6020
Midrange: Fountek FR135EX
Midbass: Peerless SLS

for crossover points this is what im thinking, and then from there ill start tuning and making adjustments

Tweeter:6500khz to up
Midrange:160hz to 6500khz
Midbass:60hz to 160hz
Subs: 20hz to 60hz (IB in rear deck x2 12inch Idq v3)






TY

James Bang
01-04-2010, 10:59 AM
Locations?

BlackMaxima
01-05-2010, 02:47 AM
Locations?

Locations will be

Midbass: in the doors
Midrange: in a kicks sealed
Tweeter: in pillars


I might change the mids from Fountek FR135EX to Hi-Audio Prolific

here is the link
http://www.haudioincus.com/Acappella-Series.php



powered by:
1) ArcAudio KS 300.4 (90X4 for the twets and midrange)
1) ArcAudio KS 300.4 bridged ( 350x2 for the midbass)
1) ArcAudio KS KS 1000.1 for the subs

RowJoe
01-05-2010, 04:29 AM
That's an expensive tweet and you're not planning on crossing it over low. IMO, I'd look at a more affordable tweet, maybe the Peerless HDS or something.

James Bang
01-05-2010, 11:53 AM
Affordable is subjective. There's a huge size diff.

Anyhow. With the listed mids and tweets you have a wide range between them that you can cross them. That's a very low FS tweet and the fountek extends very high (fullrange iirc.)

With those locations, the higher the midrnage plays, the more problems you might have with stage height, however, some argue that the mids should play the whole vocal range.

Those xover points you listed sound like a good starting point, though I would probably cross the tweets lower.

No one can really give you specific xover points to use. Its best to tinker and adjust, trial n error, to see which sounds best and suits you.

As long as your speakers are playing safely within their limits, then you're fine.

BlackMaxima
01-05-2010, 09:47 PM
thanks james


I just want to have a starting point and then from there ill start to tuning it

ill just start with this

Tweeter:2000khz to up
Midrange:160hz to 2000khz
Midbass:60hz to 160hz

BTW james i got a tread on DIY mobile audio
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/72586-my-first-3-way-i-need-some-help-plz.html

if you wanna come and check it out

James Bang
01-06-2010, 05:31 PM
thanks james


I just want to have a starting point and then from there ill start to tuning it

ill just start with this

Tweeter:2000khz to up
Midrange:160hz to 2000khz
Midbass:60hz to 160hz

BTW james i got a tread on DIY mobile audio
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/72586-my-first-3-way-i-need-some-help-plz.html

if you wanna come and check it out
2khz(i think that's what you mean) would be the lowest I'd recommend for that tweet.

...no thanks on that diyma stuff. :)

Blue Fury
01-06-2010, 05:42 PM
Play around with the lpf on the midbass. You could probably raise it up just a little bit too. You're also going to have to fool around with the slopes. The only one I can definitely say is to put the steepest slope on the tweeter hpf. Also, I've heard many times that a nice slow rolloff from the subs to the midbass helps out the usual difference in output between the subs and midbass. I kinda like it too. The rest depend on you.

James Bang
01-06-2010, 06:18 PM
Any reasoning behind the steepest slope possible for tweets, blue?

perfecxionX
01-06-2010, 07:38 PM
would it be better to put the woofer in the kick and the midrange in the door? just curious

Blue Fury
01-06-2010, 11:09 PM
Any reasoning behind the steepest slope possible for tweets, blue?

Just was I was told over and over (for the lowest recommended xover point). I don't have any tests done on it but its probably due to the mechanical limit of the tweeter right? Also, it seems to me that the octaves in that range cover a wider range of hz so that less overlapping will be the result. Some like it I suppose, I've tried it but went back to steep. If my mid and tweeter were closer (side by side possibly), or if I changed the power going to the speakers, or just a couple other eq adjustments might make me reconsider having a default steep slope. I'm not quite there yet, still a novice.

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01-07-2010, 12:10 AM
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Johnny Law.Lulz
01-07-2010, 12:12 AM
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James Bang
01-07-2010, 12:36 AM
with tweets having fs of 600-1khz, you can have common xover points of 2.5-3khz+khz and use shallow slopes safely.

Remember, the slopes messes with the phase.

Blue Fury
01-07-2010, 01:02 AM
with tweets having fs of 600-1khz, you can have common xover points of 2.5-3khz+khz and use shallow slopes safely.

Remember, the slopes messes with the phase.

Amen to that. I was experimenting with this very topic maybe a month ago and it wasn't sounding very nice at all.. more like a ringing on certain frequencies. I quickly stopped that and set it back to what I liked.

BlackMaxima
01-07-2010, 09:55 PM
would it be better to put the woofer in the kick and the midrange in the door? just curious



I cant put the midbass in the kicks cause i dont have the room for it

RAM_Designs
01-07-2010, 10:06 PM
I cant put the midbass in the kicks cause i dont have the room for it

You need the midrange fairly on axis anyways, so kicks would be better.

BlackMaxima
01-08-2010, 02:27 AM
You need the midrange fairly on axis anyways, so kicks would be better.


yea thats what i plan to do midbass in the doors, mids in the kicks and the twets in the pillars

Fatboy501
01-08-2010, 03:00 AM
Thanks for this topic... currently planning my own upgrades. I'm loving the info.

RAM_Designs
01-08-2010, 03:05 AM
yea thats what i plan to do midbass in the doors, mids in the kicks and the twets in the pillars

I'm not sure how well those Founteks will like 160hz. Might as well bump it up to 200 or 250, since the SLS can handle being crossed a little higher than 160, and you'll gain more power handling on the Founteks at the same time. And don't cross the tweeter low just because you can. It can be crossed at 2k but the real benefit of a 3-way front stage is having the majority of the vocal range coming from one set of speakers, the midranges. Crossing tweeters at 2k just kill that advantage...might as well just have a 2-way.

BlackMaxima
01-08-2010, 05:30 PM
I'm not sure how well those Founteks will like 160hz. Might as well bump it up to 200 or 250, since the SLS can handle being crossed a little higher than 160, and you'll gain more power handling on the Founteks at the same time. And don't cross the tweeter low just because you can. It can be crossed at 2k but the real benefit of a 3-way front stage is having the majority of the vocal range coming from one set of speakers, the midranges. Crossing tweeters at 2k just kill that advantage...might as well just have a 2-way.

good advice
ill make the midbass 60hz to 250hz
midbass 250Hz to 2.5Khz
Tweeter 2.5khz and up

how does that look?


BTW: im still looking for mids
B&C 6MDN44
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-6MDN44-1.htm

or
B&C 6 PEV13 it has 99dB Sensitivity
http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

or
SEAS Excel W15LY-001 Nextel Coated
and SEAS Excel W15CY-001 magnesium Cone

BlackMaxima
01-08-2010, 05:30 PM
n/m

///M5
01-09-2010, 12:16 AM
You are going about this all wrong. Don't predetermine anything it will just make it take way longer to dial in. Instead get things mounted and play your mids alone, get them dialed and then fill in with the tweeter and midbass.

BlackMaxima
01-09-2010, 01:03 AM
You are going about this all wrong. Don't predetermine anything it will just make it take way longer to dial in. Instead get things mounted and play your mids alone, get them dialed and then fill in with the tweeter and midbass.

im just trying to get a general idea with the crossover points, cause im still trying to decide with which mids im going to go with

T3mpest
01-09-2010, 03:43 PM
good advice
ill make the midbass 60hz to 250hz
midbass 250Hz to 2.5Khz
Tweeter 2.5khz and up

how does that look?


BTW: im still looking for mids
B&C 6MDN44
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-6MDN44-1.htm

or
B&C 6 PEV13 it has 99dB Sensitivity
http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

or
SEAS Excel W15LY-001 Nextel Coated
and SEAS Excel W15CY-001 magnesium Cone

The B&C is far and away too sensative for the rest of your system. You'd have to turn gains WAYYY down and still problem have level matching problems, plus when your midbasses and tweet were out of steam your mid would just be breaking a sweat. I'd go with one of the SEAS drivers over the B&C in your case.

FoxPro5
01-09-2010, 04:19 PM
The B&C is far and away too sensative for the rest of your system. You'd have to turn gains WAYYY down and still problem have level matching problems, plus when your midbasses and tweet were out of steam your mid would just be breaking a sweat. I'd go with one of the SEAS drivers over the B&C in your case.

That's just silly. There are numerous things wrong with all of the assumptions you just made. Are all sensitivity measurments = across manufacturers? No. What about baffle diffraction? Off axis listening effects? Amp efficiency?

Also, why can't one effectively level match where it counts? :confused: Don't choose speakers based on efficiency, bad idea.

M5 has it right; you're trying to predict the weather half way across the world, man. You need to go to the destination first and then decide if you need a coat or not. ;)

I've done a lot of experimentation with the deep chamber Illuminator RR's in my car. Just cause they have a low Fs doesn't mean they will play low and sound good. 2khz was the lower limit for my comfort.

Also, if you've never used a ring radiator tweet, you're best finding a laser pointer to work aiming. 15* makes a major difference. But once you nail those tweeters, I doubt you've ever hear anything better - home audio or otherwise. They're beautiful!

And from my experience with pro audio drivers, they're not going to have the "finesse" you're probably used to with car audio speakers. They're designed to play in cabinets and play loud. I wouldn't say ultra resolution is their strong point; but low distortion and midbass snap they have in spades.

BlackMaxima
01-09-2010, 06:19 PM
ty for your advise guys

Ill mount the speakers first, play the mids by it self try to dialed them in and then fill in with the tweeter and midbass.


since the B&C mids are not a good match ill get the SEAS Excel W15LY-001

FoxPro5
01-09-2010, 08:47 PM
Midrange: in a kicks sealed



ill get the SEAS Excel W15LY-001

How much room for a sealed kick do you have? Any idea how large of a Vb it will end up?

You really should model your candidates to see which will play best, in what I'm guessing will be, a small sealed kick...if you haven't already.

BlackMaxima
01-09-2010, 10:27 PM
How much room for a sealed kick do you have? Any idea how large of a Vb it will end up?

You really should model your candidates to see which will play best, in what I'm guessing will be, a small sealed kick...if you haven't already.



it is going to be small sealed kicks, if i use the Seas Excel W15LY-001

but if i use Fountek FR135EX, WLDock over at DIYMA told me
"WinISD shows 3 dB down at about 88Hz in a 0.209 cu ft sealed enclosure for a Qtc of 0.71. "

FoxPro5
01-09-2010, 11:01 PM
it is going to be small sealed kicks, if i use the Seas Excel W15LY-001

but if i use Fountek FR135EX, WLDock over at DIYMA told me
"WinISD shows 3 dB down at about 88Hz in a 0.209 cu ft sealed enclosure for a Qtc of 0.71. "

.2 cubes is more than 5L. That's pretty big for "small sealed."

Might want to determine how large you can make the kicks, before you buy anything. The other option is just to make them as large as possible and then reduce the Vb to optimize the driver that calls for a smaller air space.

Put the Scan 12M on your list if you're going to play in Excel territory. They can play in very small enclosures and will run out at .707 Qtc in like a .7L sealed. Might even be able to go dash/bottom of A pillar if you're game.

BlackMaxima
01-09-2010, 11:17 PM
.2 cubes is more than 5L. That's pretty big for "small sealed."

Might want to determine how large you can make the kicks, before you buy anything. The other option is just to make them as large as possible and then reduce the Vb to optimize the driver that calls for a smaller air space.

Put the Scan 12M on your list if you're going to play in Excel territory. They can play in very small enclosures and will run out at .707 Qtc in like a .7L sealed. Might even be able to go dash/bottom of A pillar if you're game.


I was thinking about the dash/bottom of a pillar idea too, i was thinking about putting the R3004/6020 and the L3 from hybrid audio in the pillar, plus the L3 works IB too.

the Scan 12M is twice as expansive as the Seas Excel W15LY-001

Box Suggestions: Seas Excel W15LY-001 from www.madisound.com
Sealed box 8 liters (0.3cf); f3 of 78Hz thats big for a small box too lol

FoxPro5
01-10-2010, 09:41 AM
Out of everything listed so far, I'd contact Mark at H-Audio and see what he has for your app. He has experience with a lot of MR's and would be able to either fit one of the H-Audio drivers to your needs or point you in the right direction. I have no affiliation with him or anything, just trying to help narrow your search as you keep bouncing around.

You also need to state a budget so we don't recommend something you won't afford. You can find used pairs of Scan's for $300 or less, fyi.

You can sort of skimp on the MB's (I like the SLS choice, impossible to beat for the $) and you have the best compact format tweets out there...now you need to rock a solid MR, integrate it well and tune that **** up. :veryhapp:

BlackMaxima
01-10-2010, 02:23 PM
Out of everything listed so far, I'd contact Mark at H-Audio and see what he has for your app. He has experience with a lot of MR's and would be able to either fit one of the H-Audio drivers to your needs or point you in the right direction. I have no affiliation with him or anything, just trying to help narrow your search as you keep bouncing around.

You also need to state a budget so we don't recommend something you won't afford. You can find used pairs of Scan's for $300 or less, fyi.

You can sort of skimp on the MB's (I like the SLS choice, impossible to beat for the $) and you have the best compact format tweets out there...now you need to rock a solid MR, integrate it well and tune that **** up. :veryhapp:

ty good advise.
as far as a the tweeter and midbass im good. I talked to mark on the DIYma forum and as far as the placements of the mids.
1) in the apillar : The trinity 3inch
2) in the kicks : Ebony or B&C

hes going to get back to me.

but soo far i like that apillar idea lol the trinity is nice and small lol

Blue Fury
01-11-2010, 01:43 AM
Still looking for mids? Try these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-848

James Bang
01-11-2010, 01:59 AM
Still looking for mids? Try these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-848

who what when where why?

Blue Fury
01-11-2010, 02:01 AM
Got a great rating from zaph, inexpensive, they're a step above mine and I'm very satisfied with mine above about 250hz, why not right?

At least I think they're a step above mine

T3mpest
01-11-2010, 04:43 PM
That's just silly. There are numerous things wrong with all of the assumptions you just made. Are all sensitivity measurments = across manufacturers? No. What about baffle diffraction? Off axis listening effects? Amp efficiency?

Also, why can't one effectively level match where it counts? :confused: Don't choose speakers based on efficiency, bad idea.

M5 has it right; you're trying to predict the weather half way across the world, man. You need to go to the destination first and then decide if you need a coat or not. ;)

I've done a lot of experimentation with the deep chamber Illuminator RR's in my car. Just cause they have a low Fs doesn't mean they will play low and sound good. 2khz was the lower limit for my comfort.

Also, if you've never used a ring radiator tweet, you're best finding a laser pointer to work aiming. 15* makes a major difference. But once you nail those tweeters, I doubt you've ever hear anything better - home audio or otherwise. They're beautiful!

And from my experience with pro audio drivers, they're not going to have the "finesse" you're probably used to with car audio speakers. They're designed to play in cabinets and play loud. I wouldn't say ultra resolution is their strong point; but low distortion and midbass snap they have in spades.

He shouldn't be super off axis if he's putting the speaker his kick panels. Effeciency is a calculated measurement so while it's not the same from each manufacturer, it's going to be close especially since you midrange speaker WILL actually play the 1k tone that effeciency refers too. When one speaker is 9db's less effecient than everything else level matching can be a PITA depending on the size of your amp. You dealing with 8x less power to level match and as you begin to approach your midbass and tweets limits you hit power compression and xmax asuming you don't just run out of amp power all together.

I've run horns and high effeciency drivers actively for years, you really have to pad them even when mating them to relatively effecient drivers. Anyway alot of the best SQ cars in history used PA mids, so calling them undetailed is a bit harsh. Proper placement, level matching are the main keys with any drivers ability to give you low level details, along with low distortion which most PA speakers excel in, especially at the higher volume levels that people tend to listen to in a car vs a home. Unless he is playing with an awfully small amp I can't see a reason to choose the B&C over the scan's. It just seems to fit his application better.

Anyway if your crossing your mids over actively anyway why not simply run the mids IB by venting the kick into the pillar or door frame, etc? You can avoid alot of resonance issues this way and alot of people prefer the sound of a open backed midrange.

FoxPro5
01-11-2010, 07:14 PM
When one speaker is 9db's less effecient than everything else level matching can be a PITA depending on the size of your amp. You dealing with 8x less power to level match and as you begin to approach your midbass and tweets limits you hit power compression and xmax asuming you don't just run out of amp power all together.

:confused:

By your rationale, we should be matching amp size with speakers and efficiency to efficiency. It's not a pain in the ***, it's just the reality of situation. I've ran enough "high efficiency" PA drivers to tell you the paper ratings and real world are vastly different for lots of different reasons.


Anyway alot of the best SQ cars in history used PA mids, so calling them undetailed is a bit harsh.

That, in no way, is a justification for using them. I have no problem with the B&C neo mag recommendation (I've used the 8's myself and thought they were great) and never said they were undetailed. It's a different meal to sit down to, that's all.


Unless he is playing with an awfully small amp I can't see a reason to choose the B&C over the scan's. It just seems to fit his application better.

A 30 wpc RMS amp will make any MR scream to the point of pain. Meaningless.


alot of people prefer the sound of a open backed midrange.

When the MR *should* be used as such, why not.

BlackMaxima
01-12-2010, 02:13 AM
guys i finally made up my mind:



Tweeter:Scan-Speak Illuminator R3004/6020
Midrange: Trinity 3" or B&C
Midbass: Peerless SLS

Powered by
ARC Audio KS 300.4 ==Tweeter & Midrange
ARC Audio KS 300.4 ==Midbass
ARC Audio KS 1000.1== X2 Dayton RSS315HF-4 12 in a IB (rear deck)

Im going to try to put the Tweeter and the Midrange in the apillar, if i cannot fit the Midrange in the apillar and make it look good ill change the Midrange from the trinity to the B&C Midrange and ill put that in the kicks and the Tweeter in the apillar.

soo it comes down to
1) both R3004/6020 and Trinity 3" in apillar
or
2) R3004/6020 in apillar and B&C in the kicks

I have to see which option i can work with

FoxPro5
01-12-2010, 06:00 PM
Still can put the Trinity in the kicks, though. I'd try both before you glass anything in. You might have a very bad PLD issue with MR's in the bottom of the A pillar. Just sayin.

Also consider the dome Illuminator tweet if you cannot get the 1" rings pretty close on axis. Maybe even the 3/4" RR for a little better off axis. They're not plug and play tweeters, to say the least. Domes might be a bit more forgiving, esp for a typical A pillar cross-firing tweet install.


Anyway, good luck. :)

BlackMaxima
01-12-2010, 09:02 PM
Still can put the Trinity in the kicks, though. I'd try both before you glass anything in. You might have a very bad PLD issue with MR's in the bottom of the A pillar. Just sayin.

Also consider the dome Illuminator tweet if you cannot get the 1" rings pretty close on axis. Maybe even the 3/4" RR for a little better off axis. They're not plug and play tweeters, to say the least. Domes might be a bit more forgiving, esp for a typical A pillar cross-firing tweet install.


Anyway, good luck. :)


i was thinking aiming both tweeters to the center of both front seats, ear level. if both tweeters are aimed in the middle of both front seats then both tweeters are going to be 10-12% off-axis. thats what a friend of mine did with the D3004 in the a pillars and it was about 8% off-axis and it sounded nice for the driver and passenger



BTW: whats a PLD?

James Bang
01-12-2010, 09:45 PM
path length differences

BlackMaxima
01-13-2010, 01:38 AM
path length differences




ohh ok ty

now that i think about it yea your right FoxPro5

Blue Fury
01-19-2010, 05:38 PM
I don't know if I'm too late but there's a 6 channel Arc amp that would be magic for this setup. That or the audison 6ch :drool:

ice_audioworks
03-05-2010, 05:30 AM
Locations will be

Midbass: in the doors
Midrange: in a kicks sealed
Tweeter: in pillars


I might change the mids from Fountek FR135EX to Hi-Audio Prolific

here is the link
H-Audio Inc. USA (http://www.haudioincus.com/Acappella-Series.php)



powered by:
1) ArcAudio KS 300.4 (90X4 for the twets and midrange)
1) ArcAudio KS 300.4 bridged ( 350x2 for the midbass)
1) ArcAudio KS KS 1000.1 for the subs

in my opinion (using bassbox pro6 & X-over pro 3, CLIO & RTA audio Control SA3051):

Tweeter HPF 4000hz ,slope 12db
Midrange LPF: 1000hz-1600hz, slope 12db. HPF: 250hz-200hzhz,slope 12db (if u volume box is minimal 1,2Liters )
Midbass LPF: 160-200hz, slope 12db , HPF: 63hz-100hz slope 12db
SubsLPF : 50hz, slope 12db

u must try to all driver invert polarity of tweeter, midbass & sub or not....

sorry my english to bad :(
i'm from indonesia...

best regards,
ICE audioworkshop