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View Full Version : ID Ultra Horns + AA Carbon Fiber Mids = good match?



tez4life
12-29-2009, 11:52 PM
Probability asking on the wrong forum, lol but hear goes.....thinking about downgrading to a simple stealth subwoofer setup, but wanted to a nice 2 way up front.

Currently im using a pair of Blaupunkt VC100s and a pair of PG RSD mids in the stock location in my doors, unsealed and undeadend, being pushed by a MB Quart Discus 4125. I like the stealth of the setup, but wish I could get a cleaner sound, (my ID Oem mids sounded much better to me IMO). I though that this might be a good time to reconsider horns again since I have a good HU for tuning if necessary.

I had considered the AAs for an active setup a while back, but it came to my attention that they might be a nice match for a set of ID Ultras.

Of course the doors would be deadened heavy and sealed.

Seems like a solid plan? Just looking for some feedback, thanks.

tez4life
12-30-2009, 05:11 PM
No love?

modskwod
12-30-2009, 05:12 PM
I think it would probably be a good setup for whatever it's worth.

timaishu
12-30-2009, 05:54 PM
Can I have one of your vc100 crossovers if you switch?

One of mine has a stripped terminal screw hole that I dont know how to fix..

tez4life
12-30-2009, 07:03 PM
I think it would probably be a good setup for whatever it's worth.


Thanks man, :)



Can I have one of your vc100 crossovers if you switch?

One of mine has a stripped terminal screw hole that I dont know how to fix..

Gladly.....if I still had them, sold them a while back. Sorry :crap:


I have a extra tweeter since I blew one over the past weekend and these are about to come out. If your interested.

T3mpest
12-30-2009, 07:20 PM
Your going to need some EQ to get those horns to sound good. Also what's the effeciency on those AA? Horns are 110db/1w/1m, while you can't match that with any conventional driver it's always good to come as close as you can. I'd look a for 90-92 with alot of power. If your not going to do all that just go with a regular tweeter. The horns won't ever be able to be pushed any harder than a regular mid can go anyway and a tweet can handle that SPL no issues with a better frequency response out of the box.

tez4life
12-30-2009, 07:30 PM
Your going to need some EQ to get those horns to sound good. Also what's the effeciency on those AA? Horns are 110db/1w/1m, while you can't match that with any conventional driver it's always good to come as close as you can. I'd look a for 90-92 with alot of power. If your not going to do all that just go with a regular tweeter. The horns won't ever be able to be pushed any harder than a regular mid can go anyway and a tweet can handle that SPL no issues with a better frequency response out of the box.


Im not sure exactly the effeciency of the AAs, but I believe its pretty high, they only require around 150w of input, and from most owners, it seems enough....im glad you mention that, because it was something I was thinking about as well.

EQing im not concerned too much, I have a Pioneer Premier 880, so im quite sure I have that covered.

I did consider the ID Oems again, with a good bit of power, around 200w each. I would love to do something like ID XS series 6.5s or even the 6x9s in custom kick panels, but budget will not allow it, since I have to spend so much on the Horns.

A simple 2 way with just a regular tweeter might be a better deal, and be alot easier to tune, something to consider...


You were one of the people on here I was hoping to respond, thanks :)

Jeremy M
12-30-2009, 08:29 PM
I'd give a high end tweeter a go before i jump into horns. I've said it many times before and i'll say it again...the ID-XS28 tweets are superb to listen to.

timaishu
12-30-2009, 08:44 PM
Thanks man, :)




Gladly.....if I still had them, sold them a while back. Sorry :crap:


I have a extra tweeter since I blew one over the past weekend and these are about to come out. If your interested.

Darn.. Was worth a shot.

Thanks but no thanks on the tweeter. I dont really see myself at risk for blowing mine since my amp doesnt put out too much power.

Thanks though. :)

Image Dynamics
12-31-2009, 12:15 PM
Im not sure exactly the effeciency of the AAs, but I believe its pretty high, they only require around 150w of input, and from most owners, it seems enough....im glad you mention that, because it was something I was thinking about as well.

EQing im not concerned too much, I have a Pioneer Premier 880, so im quite sure I have that covered.

I did consider the ID Oems again, with a good bit of power, around 200w each. I would love to do something like ID XS series 6.5s or even the 6x9s in custom kick panels, but budget will not allow it, since I have to spend so much on the Horns.

A simple 2 way with just a regular tweeter might be a better deal, and be alot easier to tune, something to consider...


You were one of the people on here I was hoping to respond, thanks :)

The CDULTRA sounds pretty solid out of the box provided they are installed correctly. (pretty simple install too). Haven't read much about the AA mid, but a good choice to look at instead of the IDOEM (which kicks ***, btw) is the CX62v.2. The new V.2 Chameleon is a refinement on the V.1. The V.2 uses a lighter cone and slightly smaller motor than the V.1. The midbass output is slightly less than the v.1 however, the lower/mid midrange is better with a nautral roll off around 3-3.2Khz.
The X65 (or XS65) is a good choice too. the X65 (midbass only) has a seeming solid midbass resonce however, it appears to be overshadowed by the dominante upper midrange efficiency and natural roll off around 4.5Khz.

The one advantage of the CX62v.2 over the X65 is the availability of a 2ohm option. The CX62v.2 is infact a 2 ohm driver (CX64v.2 - 4 ohm driver) whereas the X65 is only available in 4 ohm (atleast for now).

SqGuySoCal562
01-06-2010, 04:10 AM
u can also look at the B&C 85ndl i thinks thats the model number they have a high sensitivity something like 92-94db they will keep up with the horns from what i've heard since they are used in pro audio.

bass_lover1
01-06-2010, 09:05 PM
u can also look at the B&C 85ndl i thinks thats the model number they have a high sensitivity something like 92-94db they will keep up with the horns from what i've heard since they are used in pro audio.

The 8NDL51 is probably the one you're speaking of. Even a 6.5" version from B&C or 18Sound would work too.

To the OP, just remember that with PA drivers you're going to trade off efficiency for low frequency extension. Even the 8" drivers will strain when pushed hard below 80hz. For me this wouldn't be an issue (my mids are crossed at 80hz anyway) but I know a lot of you like your mid/midbass drivers to play subbass frequencies for whatever reason.

tez4life
01-06-2010, 11:04 PM
The CDULTRA sounds pretty solid out of the box provided they are installed correctly. (pretty simple install too). Haven't read much about the AA mid, but a good choice to look at instead of the IDOEM (which kicks ***, btw) is the CX62v.2. The new V.2 Chameleon is a refinement on the V.1. The V.2 uses a lighter cone and slightly smaller motor than the V.1. The midbass output is slightly less than the v.1 however, the lower/mid midrange is better with a nautral roll off around 3-3.2Khz.
The X65 (or XS65) is a good choice too. the X65 (midbass only) has a seeming solid midbass resonce however, it appears to be overshadowed by the dominante upper midrange efficiency and natural roll off around 4.5Khz.

The one advantage of the CX62v.2 over the X65 is the availability of a 2ohm option. The CX62v.2 is infact a 2 ohm driver (CX64v.2 - 4 ohm driver) whereas the X65 is only available in 4 ohm (atleast for now).


I completely forgot about the CX62v.2, I remember them having a 2 ohm option...that would work perfect for me with my current amp running the front stage even though honestly, a 50x2 on the horns would be plenty.




u can also look at the B&C 85ndl i thinks thats the model number they have a high sensitivity something like 92-94db they will keep up with the horns from what i've heard since they are used in pro audio.


The 8NDL51 is probably the one you're speaking of. Even a 6.5" version from B&C or 18Sound would work too.

To the OP, just remember that with PA drivers you're going to trade off efficiency for low frequency extension. Even the 8" drivers will strain when pushed hard below 80hz. For me this wouldn't be an issue (my mids are crossed at 80hz anyway) but I know a lot of you like your mid/midbass drivers to play subbass frequencies for whatever reason.


I considered a pro audio driver as well, but as mention, most lack under 100hz for my taste. Wasnt looking for insane midbass, just a nice match to the horns and my substage.


Thanks alot for all the feedback guys, gives me alot to think about...

T3mpest
01-06-2010, 11:08 PM
I completely forgot about the CX62v.2, I remember them having a 2 ohm option...that would work perfect for me with my current amp running the front stage even though honestly, a 50x2 on the horns would be plenty.








I considered a pro audio driver as well, but as mention, most lack under 100hz for my taste. Wasnt looking for insane midbass, just a nice match to the horns and my substage.


Thanks alot for all the feedback guys, gives me alot to think about...

To actually match those horns your going to need something like that tho. The horns only go down to 1k or so. If you want to use any of the dynamics your horns have to offer you need to be capable of 115-125db's in teh lower midrange where the mid starts to roll off, you wont' get that with many normal speakers without alot of stress and strain. Unless your competing for SQ a bit of subbass behind you isn't a big deal. Especially since it leads to killer midbass, a much cleaner sound overall and 2x as loud as what most car's even attempt to approach.

tez4life
01-06-2010, 11:13 PM
To actually match those horns your going to need something like that tho. The horns only go down to 1k or so. If you want to use any of the dynamics your horns have to offer you need to be capable of 115-125db's in teh lower midrange where the mid starts to roll off, you wont' get that with many normal speakers without alot of stress and strain. Unless your competing for SQ a bit of subbass behind you isn't a big deal. Especially since it leads to killer midbass, a much cleaner sound overall and 2x as loud as what most car's even attempt to approach.



Im open for suggestions, if I decide to go the pro audio route, any particular driver you would recommend? 6.5" but im open to a 8" because im considering doing kick panels anyway. And this is aimed at a nice sounding daily driver on music, mostly R&B and Jazz.

Brian_smith06
01-06-2010, 11:13 PM
i wish i had a set of horns for my xs65's :crap:

these threads always tease me

tez4life
01-06-2010, 11:17 PM
i wish i had a set of horns for my xs65's :crap:

these threads always tease me


You install always teases me, lol very nice gear. :D

Brian_smith06
01-06-2010, 11:20 PM
You install always teases me, lol very nice gear. :D

lol thanks. im pretty fond of it myself :D thinking about adding a processor soon ;) and possibly another dls amp and make my 3 way active a 4 way active :eek:

T3mpest
01-06-2010, 11:55 PM
Im open for suggestions, if I decide to go the pro audio route, any particular driver you would recommend? 6.5" but im open to a 8" because im considering doing kick panels anyway. And this is aimed at a nice sounding daily driver on music, mostly R&B and Jazz.

jazz, you'll appreciate the smooth realism that higher effeciency drivers offer.

Lots of options tbh depends on budget. Surf
http://www.usspeaker.com/

they have lots of good high effeciency drivers to choose from. Look at JBL, Faitel, 18sound, and B&C. First I'd decide between 8's and 6.5s. If you honestly have the footroom, I'd do an 8. Most high effecincy 8's will still play to 70-80hz cleanly which is really all you SHOULD be running 6.5's down to anyway, unless it's like an extremis mid something. Once you figure that out, for a good mix of SPL and lower extension look for at least 4mm of xmax and 92db's of effeciency or greater.

tez4life
01-06-2010, 11:59 PM
jazz, you'll appreciate the smooth realism that higher effeciency drivers offer.

Lots of options tbh depends on budget. Surf
http://www.usspeaker.com/

they have lots of good high effeciency drivers to choose from. Look at JBL, Faitel, 18sound, and B&C. First I'd decide between 8's and 6.5s. If you honestly have the footroom, I'd do an 8. Most high effecincy 8's will still play to 70-80hz cleanly which is really all you SHOULD be running 6.5's down to anyway, unless it's like an extremis mid something. Once you figure that out, for a good mix of SPL and lower extension look for at least 4mm of xmax and 92db's of effeciency or greater.



Excellent, thanks for that sir, :)

T3mpest
01-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Excellent, thanks for that sir, :)

also don't be scared away by the 8ohm thing. Car audio drivers are 4ohm so their effeciency is misrated vs the industry standard voltage at 8ohm. Since they are taking half the power of the car audio mids they are going to be down in effeciency by 3db's since they get half the power, but car audio mids are rated 3 too high. So a pro audio mid at 93db1w/1m will be 3db's louder than 90db/1w/1m off the same amp, by 3db's, it all cancels out lower power vs a higher true effeciency, apples to apples on the numbers....

///M5
01-09-2010, 12:19 AM
The AA would make the horns a complete waste as they would be underwhelming in comparison. The B&C would be a better match for sure.

tez4life
01-11-2010, 11:46 PM
also don't be scared away by the 8ohm thing. Car audio drivers are 4ohm so their effeciency is misrated vs the industry standard voltage at 8ohm. Since they are taking half the power of the car audio mids they are going to be down in effeciency by 3db's since they get half the power, but car audio mids are rated 3 too high. So a pro audio mid at 93db1w/1m will be 3db's louder than 90db/1w/1m off the same amp, by 3db's, it all cancels out lower power vs a higher true effeciency, apples to apples on the numbers....


The AA would make the horns a complete waste as they would be underwhelming in comparison. The B&C would be a better match for sure.



Sounds good, how would you guys feel about something like this,

The Ultras being pushed by a small 2 channel, (Old school Sony ES or one of the PG M25s that Mobeious is selling).

Along with a set of 18 Sound 8MB400

8" MID-BASS SPEAKER

fiberglassed in my door off my MB Quart 4125 bridged to 2 channels (500w x 2 at 4 ohm).


And again, thanks for the input, going to be a difficult decision for myself. A conventional 2 way would be alot simplier, however, this does sound promising and unique.

T3mpest
01-12-2010, 01:07 AM
Sounds good, how would you guys feel about something like this,

The Ultras being pushed by a small 2 channel, (Old school Sony ES or one of the PG M25s that Mobeious is selling).

Along with a set of 18 Sound 8MB400

8" MID-BASS SPEAKER

fiberglassed in my door off my MB Quart 4125 bridged to 2 channels (500w x 2 at 4 ohm).


And again, thanks for the input, going to be a difficult decision for myself. A conventional 2 way would be alot simplier, however, this does sound promising and unique.


Looks like you followed my recommendations very well. Good xmax and sensativity and 45 degree off axis measurments look good until past 1k so it will mate up fine with a horn. Free air impedence spike is like 70ish so you won't get output any lower than that in a door. You'll probably find a 80hz 24db/octave slope your best bet, hard to say until it's installed though. One thing to realize though is that your doors will rattle like a *****, no matter what you do. I'm running a similar midbass in the very far edges of my kickpanels and you can feel my leather seats vibrate from just the frontwave hitting me at higher volumes. My floors really need deadened, trust me I drive around with a personal feet massager atm. If you are going to have to fiberglass anyway do you have room for kicks? This will get your overall pathlengths close as well as get the mids and horns closer together.

Anyway once you see what a speaker setup like that can do you'll be glad you went with it over a regular low effeciency car audio setup. I can't imagine ever being remotely happy with anything else. Anyway once you get it done you'll find you can demo stuff other than rap and be impressively loud and clean, few cars can do that. I'd download:
Alice in chains- would (unplugged)
all-american rejects- move along
disturbed-indestructible
Avenged sevenfold-strength of the world (opening is silly if you car can properly do the opening)
the drums tracks from the Focal SQ disk (check DIYMA for a download link, I think they still work lol)

Horsemanwill
01-12-2010, 07:42 PM
are u using full or mini body style? what car was this in?

tez4life
01-12-2010, 07:55 PM
are u using full or mini body style? what car was this in?


2004 Ford Crown Vic, plan on full body if I can fit them, though after some measurements under the dash including accounting for the kicks, it might be the mini bodies...

8" in the kicks is possible, have to move a couple of things, but def is possible, but a 6.5" would be better space wise.

Horsemanwill
01-12-2010, 08:00 PM
if you go full bodies you could cross the horns down to 800hz. remember with the full bodies you could point the drivers either up into the dash or down towards the floor. i have mine towards the floor. i run dual x65 with my full bodies. If i remember right i think i have it set at horns 800 and up mids 800-80 and subs 80 down i can't recall. if your goin with 8's in the kicks see if you can vent them into your sub frame if you have one.

tez4life
01-12-2010, 08:07 PM
if you go full bodies you could cross the horns down to 800hz. remember with the full bodies you could point the drivers either up into the dash or down towards the floor. i have mine towards the floor. i run dual x65 with my full bodies. If i remember right i think i have it set at horns 800 and up mids 800-80 and subs 80 down i can't recall. if your goin with 8's in the kicks see if you can vent them into your sub frame if you have one.



Ive seen you install on here and over on IDs forum, 94 Lesabre correct? And I completely forgot that the full bodies could be aimed down as well. I could do dual drivers in the doors, but it would cost me sig more money for the fiberglass work, as im having it done by a local guy I trust.


I honestly believe I have the room for the full bodies, if I remove the mounting tabs off the ends of the horns. Ive been doing alot of reading up on them for quite sometime now as a hobby, just was a little afraid to take the plunge.

tez4life
01-12-2010, 08:08 PM
**** double post, lol sorry.

Horsemanwill
01-12-2010, 11:57 PM
yep that's me. ya there's plenty of trim on the horns you could always make a "mockup" of the horns mouth with some cardboard.

tez4life
01-13-2010, 12:09 AM
Thats true, didnt think about that either, maybe something I play around with this weekend while im off. Ive been so busy with work and my back issues lately, have not had the time or strength to do much of anything.


Thats the thing im most concerned with the horns, getting the "aim" correct.

T3mpest
01-13-2010, 02:34 AM
Thats true, didnt think about that either, maybe something I play around with this weekend while im off. Ive been so busy with work and my back issues lately, have not had the time or strength to do much of anything.


Thats the thing im most concerned with the horns, getting the "aim" correct.


Check underneath your dash and see how far back you can mount them and have them have a smooth extension up the dash. You want them as far back and as far to the left and right as you can get them. Mount them straight completely flat, don't point them in or out and make sure the are pointed straight ahead. The dash itself may have a curve, so bring once you get them mounted step back a bit and actually check to make sure they are level. If you do that your soundstage should be fine.

If you have any gaps in your underside a cheap, albeit ghetto solution is duck tape. You can even run it into the horn flare and get a perfect contour between it and the dash. Works wonders in my car as my drivers side has a open cavity.