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SubNit
12-01-2009, 10:02 AM
Now that I have a decent TV home theatre has grabbed my attention

I need some help on how big to make my sub enclosure. This is my first venture into home audio and I want to do it right. I figure something like 7-8ft^3 @25hz. The subwoofer is an Eclipse SW9152. Was also wondering if I should downfire it?

Like I said haven't the slightest clue what to do when it comes to home audio, but I'll be looking into this stuff quite heavily now. Any links to a good home theatre site would be nice too

Thanks

pics will be provided upon completion of the enclosure...it will look nice;)

joeybutts
12-01-2009, 10:15 AM
I would tune down to about 21 if you can. Lots of movies these days have sub 20Hz stuff slamming through...

I can't model it here, but if it isn't answered by tonight I'll check it out for you. Do you have the T/S on the woofer?

SubNit
12-01-2009, 10:20 AM
I would tune down to about 21 if you can. Lots of movies these days have sub 20Hz stuff slamming through...

I can't model it here, but if it isn't answered by tonight I'll check it out for you. Do you have the T/S on the woofer?

I'll try and get them. Thing is the parameters Eclipse provides you aren't accurate at all, but I remember somone posting the actual parameters not too long ago so I'll try and find them

Tuning down that low wouldn't be a problem. Like I said I'm kind of swinging in the dark here so I appreciate any and all help

Thanks

bubbagumper6
12-01-2009, 10:31 AM
hmm...bump for similar interests

Anyone have a link for guides on how to design an enclosure for a HT setup? I know how to design for a car but no idea about this stuff either....

joeybutts
12-01-2009, 10:37 AM
You want flat response down into the low 20's which usually requires a large enclosure, porting helps bump up the SPL's and def want cone area if you are looking for movie theater like LFE. I'm going to be building twin 18" enclosures in about 9 cubes tuned to 21. Should DESTROY.

I had an 18" sealed in 5.5 cubes that was pretty awesome in my 800 sq ft apt. :)

joeybutts
12-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Also, I do like downfiring woofers, but it isn't necessary....

What are you planning on using for power?

SubNit
12-01-2009, 11:10 AM
Also, I do like downfiring woofers, but it isn't necessary....

What are you planning on using for power?

Ok cool, wasn't sure on the whole downfiring thing.

As for power I'm not sure at all. Do you have any recommendations for a good 1000-15000 watt power source?

joeybutts
12-01-2009, 12:25 PM
They say certain subs are suited better for downfiring, but that can only be figured by audiophiles, and even then it is still subjective. I've downfired plenty of subs and have enjoyed them all.

you won't need that much if you are only running one of those guys. It's rated at 750, right? I bet 500 would be enough, no more than 650 for sure since you are putting it in such a massive enclosure..... if you find those specs I can tell you how much would be good.

as for amps around 1000, there are a couple on Partsexpress website, eD makes a 1300 watt amp that I used and loved, and you can also look at some proaudio amps if you wanted.....

Ray21
12-01-2009, 12:42 PM
Generally you tune lower for HT... in the mid teens if possible/practical. Need the TS in order to make a good recommendation...

For power 500 watts is really plenty. You don't need as much power because you don't have to overcome road noise and huge HT enclosures are more efficient.

I ran a Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" in 3.5 cubes tuned to ~20 hz powered off a PE 250 watt plate amp. Had very impressive output and SQ, after EQ'd was able to get flat down to 18hz.

I replaced that with an AVA15 in 5.5 cubes tuned to 15 hz powered off a BASH 500 watt plate amp. It actually sounds cleaner than the Dayton on both movies and music. Plenty of headroom.

SubNit
12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
They say certain subs are suited better for downfiring, but that can only be figured by audiophiles, and even then it is still subjective. I've downfired plenty of subs and have enjoyed them all.

you won't need that much if you are only running one of those guys. It's rated at 750, right? I bet 500 would be enough, no more than 650 for sure since you are putting it in such a massive enclosure..... if you find those specs I can tell you how much would be good.

as for amps around 1000, there are a couple on Partsexpress website, eD makes a 1300 watt amp that I used and loved, and you can also look at some proaudio amps if you wanted.....

Thanks, the more I thought about it and saw what other people were running I was starting to lean toward a nice 500 watt amp. The reason I suggested 1000 watts at first is because most people throw ~1500 at these subs so I figured 1000 would be enough in a box like this.

I'll look into those amps you suggested. As for the T/S parameters, I'm having trouble finding the "right" ones. But here's one set:

Fs: 27 Hz
Qts: .39
Vas: 6.10
SPL: 91dB @ 1W/1M
Voice Coil Re: 3.1 + 3.1
Power (Peak/RMS): 750/1500
Qms: 5.0
Qes: .42
X-max: 1.75" (one way)
Sd: 800 Sq Cm



Generally you tune lower for HT... in the mid teens if possible/practical. Need the TS in order to make a good recommendation...

For power 500 watts is really plenty. You don't need as much power because you don't have to overcome road noise and huge HT enclosures are more efficient.

I ran a Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" in 3.5 cubes tuned to ~20 hz powered off a PE 250 watt plate amp. Had very impressive output and SQ, after EQ'd was able to get flat down to 18hz.

I replaced that with an AVA15 in 5.5 cubes tuned to 15 hz powered off a BASH 500 watt plate amp. It actually sounds cleaner than the Dayton on both movies and music. Plenty of headroom.

Thanks for the info. I've heard good things about that Dayton Titanic. Haven't heard too much about the AVA but the fact that it out-performed the Dayton speaks volumes

Again thanks for the info and I'll work on getting the real set of parameters, but I think the one's I posted are close....

PV Audio
12-01-2009, 01:32 PM
If you can get me some T/S, I'd be happy to help you out :)

SubNit
12-01-2009, 01:38 PM
If you can get me some T/S, I'd be happy to help you out :)

Thanks, I know you have your enclosure designs down to the wire after reading through your other thread

I'm trying to get the real set, just waiting on a response from somone. Seems like there was a lot of confusion with these woofers on the t/s params

Here's another set I found:

Fs = 27Hz
Qts = 0.43
Vas = 6.10 cuft
DCR = 4ohm/coil Xmax(one way) = 1.75"

PV Audio
12-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Generally you tune lower for HT... in the mid teens if possible/practical. Need the TS in order to make a good recommendation...

For power 500 watts is really plenty. You don't need as much power because you don't have to overcome road noise and huge HT enclosures are more efficient.

I ran a Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" in 3.5 cubes tuned to ~20 hz powered off a PE 250 watt plate amp. Had very impressive output and SQ, after EQ'd was able to get flat down to 18hz.

I replaced that with an AVA15 in 5.5 cubes tuned to 15 hz powered off a BASH 500 watt plate amp. It actually sounds cleaner than the Dayton on both movies and music. Plenty of headroom.
You need double that power for that Dayton to come alive. That's probably why the Av sounded cleaner because you were overdriving that plate amp to get decent output.

PV Audio
12-01-2009, 01:51 PM
Thanks, I know you have your enclosure designs down to the wire after reading through your other thread

I'm trying to get the real set, just waiting on a response from somone. Seems like there was a lot of confusion with these woofers on the t/s params

Here's another set I found:

Fs = 27Hz
Qts = 0.43
Vas = 6.10 cuft
DCR = 4ohm/coil Xmax(one way) = 1.75"
Eh I don't know about down to the wire, but I do far more home audio than most guys up in the enclosure section so I will at least admit to that. :)

Let me see if I don't already have that speaker in the database, as I know I designed a few enclosures for the Ti subs a few years back.

jwth2005
12-01-2009, 01:52 PM
I am really curious about this too. I will be putting together a HT setup as well over the next few months. What would be good subs to run in this type of enviroment???

PV Audio
12-01-2009, 01:58 PM
No, I only have the ones you posted. Apparently people don't want to model this speaker anymore :crap:

PV Audio
12-01-2009, 02:03 PM
I am really curious about this too. I will be putting together a HT setup as well over the next few months. What would be good subs to run in this type of enviroment???Bigger is better, lower is better. That means bigger cone size and lower resonant frequency. These speakers need to reach down below 20hz with authority unlike in car audio. If your speaker's Fs is around 30-35, by the time your 15hz depth charge explosion comes, your speaker will be about as torn to shreds as the submarine in the movie. For that reason, you typically need big drivers with high compliances and moving masses as Fs is an inverse relationship of the product of the compliance and the moving mass. If you want, you can add mass to the rear of the cone which has been done before but I would generally just recommend that you use a larger sub with a decently high Cms and Mms, or just a low Fs. In this case, Qts is critical to look out for. Unlike in car audio, if your Qts is .8, don't even THINK about putting that into a ported box. That thing will flop around like a dying fish. Instead, you will need to follow the >.7 = sealed and <.4 = ported rule. That doesn't mean that sealed subs are bad, in fact, the SoundSplinter RL-S15 is one of the best home theatre subs money can buy and it'd shoot you if you ported it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :)

joeybutts
12-01-2009, 02:12 PM
Sealed subs can actually be really nice depending on enclosure size and Qtc....loved mine, but really want to try ported for my HT use....

SubNit
12-01-2009, 04:09 PM
Thanks for hangin in there with me guys, hopefully I'll have a response here sometime today on those t/s parameters

Been doing some reading on HT and it's getting addicting...too bad I don't have a dedicated media room

plugitin
12-01-2009, 04:47 PM
sub'd

Ray21
12-01-2009, 05:06 PM
You need double that power for that Dayton to come alive. That's probably why the Av sounded cleaner because you were overdriving that plate amp to get decent output.

Maybe... while its a great sub its not even close to being one of my favorites. I've had it in both 1.5 sealed and 2 cubes tuned to 30hz with 500+ clean watts and it just sounded flat, for lack of a better term. :crap:

bubbagumper6
12-01-2009, 06:43 PM
PV when I finally get around to working on my HT setup you may be receiving a few pm's :D

SubNit
12-02-2009, 12:41 AM
Ok finally got the T/S parameters thanks to eclipsefool

So if I could get some much needed help on the enclosure design it would be appreciated

Fs:27
Qts:0.39
Vas:6.10
SPL:91
VCoilZ:3.1+3.1
Power:750/1500
Qms:5.0
Qes:0.42
XMax:1.75"
Sd:800

stupify
12-02-2009, 01:24 PM
I am really curious about this too. I will be putting together a HT setup as well over the next few months. What would be good subs to run in this type of enviroment???

these http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448279

SubNit
12-02-2009, 04:12 PM
I know it's a longshot but if you guys happen to have a 500 watt amp that I can run let me know as I'm looking to buy a decent one

Thanks

joeybutts
12-03-2009, 10:38 PM
Ok, here is my novice/intermediate attempt for you. Have someone double check this for you. :) (Maybe PV will see this up here and give it a model....)

on 500W, with the 9152, and the specs you gave, I have WINISD giving me the best enclosure at 8 cubes, tuned to 20Hz, Slot port of 16" x 3", 34.5" long (or an 8 in aero 36" long which lowers the air speed by 1 m/s). This gives an air velocity of 19 m/s at about 16 Hz (a TOUCH high but not too bad), and a nice flat response (It only deviates by 5 dbs from 80Hz to 20Hz).

Hopefully PV can run this and check for you. The SPL numbers looked real nice as well.

SubNit
12-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Ok, here is my novice/intermediate attempt for you. Have someone double check this for you. :) (Maybe PV will see this up here and give it a model....)

on 500W, with the 9152, and the specs you gave, I have WINISD giving me the best enclosure at 8 cubes, tuned to 20Hz, Slot port of 16" x 3", 34.5" long (or an 8 in aero 36" long which lowers the air speed by 1 m/s). This gives an air velocity of 19 m/s at about 16 Hz (a TOUCH high but not too bad), and a nice flat response (It only deviates by 5 dbs from 80Hz to 20Hz).

Hopefully PV can run this and check for you. The SPL numbers looked real nice as well.

Thanks for the help, I'll see if I can get somone to double check that but it sounds like it should work:)

PV Audio
12-04-2009, 03:04 PM
Hmm, I modeled it up and it doesn't look too pretty. It has a huge null which is due to a simply MONSTROUS impedance spike at Fs. If you could build a large series notch filter for it, I'm sure that'd bring the response up. However, tuning at 22hz at 5 cubes is simply hideous. Tuning at 20 at 8 cubes is even worse. That has a F3 of over 120hz! However, giving it a smaller sized box seems to make it rather happy at about 2 cf. Note that the Qts is not that low, so giving it a huge ported enclosure might not be necessary. It has a EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) of around 64, and the benchmark for ported is 100. I'll keep tweaking and will see what I can come up with :)

SubNit
12-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Hmm, I modeled it up and it doesn't look too pretty. It has a huge null which is due to a simply MONSTROUS impedance spike at Fs. If you could build a large series notch filter for it, I'm sure that'd bring the response up. However, tuning at 22hz at 5 cubes is simply hideous. Tuning at 20 at 8 cubes is even worse. That has a F3 of over 120hz! However, giving it a smaller sized box seems to make it rather happy at about 2 cf. Note that the Qts is not that low, so giving it a huge ported enclosure might not be necessary. It has a EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) of around 64, and the benchmark for ported is 100. I'll keep tweaking and will see what I can come up with :)

Sweet! Thanks for the info and fyi I have no space restrictions so yeah, it can be as big or small as it needs to be

Thanks again!

PV Audio
12-04-2009, 07:49 PM
Well, wait a minute, you didn't give me an inductance value. If you could find me a Le value, that would make this a lot more accurate. :)

SubNit
12-05-2009, 02:15 AM
Well, wait a minute, you didn't give me an inductance value. If you could find me a Le value, that would make this a lot more accurate. :)

Having trouble finding that info. How criticle is this value? If I can't find it will it make a big difference?

joeybutts
12-05-2009, 08:33 AM
PV, what program are you using to model it up?

SubNit
12-07-2009, 07:19 PM
Yeah man I can't find that Le value. If you can't model without it then I understand. But if you could just point me in a good general direction that would be awesome:) FYI I'll only be powering it with about 500 watts

Thanks

PV Audio
12-08-2009, 02:51 AM
Having trouble finding that info. How criticle is this value? If I can't find it will it make a big difference?Inductance is at the same time unimportant and very important. For just a speaker paramter, it's incredibly important as a lower inductance means the signal can quickly shift from positive to negative, thus giving you a better transient response and low group delay. It also helps you know when and where the upper bandwidth for the speaker is. However, in an enclosure, it isn't vitally important, but it's still useful to know.

PV Audio
12-08-2009, 09:23 AM
Having trouble finding that info. How criticle is this value? If I can't find it will it make a big difference?Inductance is at the same time unimportant and very important. For just a speaker paramter, it's incredibly important as a lower inductance means the signal can quickly shift from positive to negative, thus giving you a better transient response and low group delay. It also helps you know when and where the upper bandwidth for the speaker is. However, in an enclosure, it isn't vitally important, but it's still useful to know.

PV Audio
12-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Having trouble finding that info. How criticle is this value? If I can't find it will it make a big difference?Inductance is at the same time unimportant and very important. For just a speaker paramter, it's incredibly important as a lower inductance means the signal can quickly shift from positive to negative, thus giving you a better transient response and low group delay. It also helps you know when and where the upper bandwidth for the speaker is. However, in an enclosure, it isn't vitally important, but it's still useful to know.

SubNit
12-08-2009, 05:24 PM
So will you be able to provide me the info to build atleast a decent box? I'm still searching for that value but no luck

SubNit
12-10-2009, 07:16 PM
So I had another source give me what they said were some *closer* t/s parameters

Re 6.2ohms
BL 28tm
Mms 260 grams
Vas 90 liters
Cms 100uN/M
Fs 31Hz
Qts 0.37
SPL 90dB

I'm ready to start building ASAP so if someone could help me out I would appreciate it. Thanks

hzsogood
12-10-2009, 07:21 PM
I had a dayton mkIII titanic, and imo it ******.. couldnt build an enclosure that came even close to an exodus audio tempest.. Which is now in a 8 CF enclosure tuned to 18 hz run off a PE 1000 watt plate amp.. Car audio subs just are not made for the HT world man..

hzsogood
12-10-2009, 07:27 PM
Bigger is better, lower is better. That means bigger cone size and lower resonant frequency. These speakers need to reach down below 20hz with authority unlike in car audio. If your speaker's Fs is around 30-35, by the time your 15hz depth charge explosion comes, your speaker will be about as torn to shreds as the submarine in the movie. For that reason, you typically need big drivers with high compliances and moving masses as Fs is an inverse relationship of the product of the compliance and the moving mass. If you want, you can add mass to the rear of the cone which has been done before but I would generally just recommend that you use a larger sub with a decently high Cms and Mms, or just a low Fs. In this case, Qts is critical to look out for. Unlike in car audio, if your Qts is .8, don't even THINK about putting that into a ported box. That thing will flop around like a dying fish. Instead, you will need to follow the >.7 = sealed and <.4 = ported rule. That doesn't mean that sealed subs are bad, in fact, the SoundSplinter RL-S15 is one of the best home theatre subs money can buy and it'd shoot you if you ported it. Let me know if you have any other questions. :)

YGPM

SSS 18734
12-10-2009, 07:30 PM
If you're looking into a cheap power source, look into a Behringer EP2500, or the new ones that recently came out. You can get them used on Ebay for $200 or so.

Tons of power for dirt cheap. I run my pair at 8 ohms bridged for hours at full capacity and I really can't complain. Just keep them in another room - they're a bit loud, like most SR amps.

SubNit
12-10-2009, 07:36 PM
If you're looking into a cheap power source, look into a Behringer EP2500, or the new ones that recently came out. You can get them used on Ebay for $200 or so.

Tons of power for dirt cheap. I run my pair at 8 ohms bridged for hours at full capacity and I really can't complain. Just keep them in another room - they're a bit loud, like most SR amps.

Thanks for the heads up. Been looking for an amp

hzsogood
12-10-2009, 07:52 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Been looking for an amp


Used the ep2500 for a while with an external low pass filter

SubNit
12-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Still need help on the enclosure.......

PV Audio
12-12-2009, 06:29 PM
I had a dayton mkIII titanic, and imo it ******.. couldnt build an enclosure that came even close to an exodus audio tempest.. Which is now in a 8 CF enclosure tuned to 18 hz run off a PE 1000 watt plate amp.. Car audio subs just are not made for the HT world man..No, and I mean this with all due respect, you just don't know how to design a home audio subwoofer enclosure. Car audio design techniques do not carry over in the slightest.

The Titanic is simply a superb home theatre speaker. The tempest is as well, yes, but the titanic is nowhere near a poor driver. I have used one since 2004 on 1000W daily in the home theatre at parents home in an enclosure I designed and it will knock pictures off the walls at moderate volume. It's down to the enclosure, my friend, not the speaker itself. The Tempest (I have owned all Adire drivers aside from the Maelstrom) is a great speaker, yes, but isn't lightyears ahead. I'm not saying I'm some master enclosure designer especially since I designed that particular one when I didn't even have a drivers' license, but it's still to this day quite decent. Read the reviews for the driver and note that they all say the same thing:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-420&vReviewShow=1&vReviewRand=882301

Oh, and the Dayton is about as far from a "car audio" subwoofer as you can get, so you can get that nonsense out of here right now. :D

PV Audio
12-12-2009, 06:33 PM
And be careful with the Behringer amps: they create a tremendous amount of heat and they are incredibly loud. I own both the 1500 and 2500 and each gets so hot it's unbelieveable, and the DIP switches on the back are impossible to reach.

SubNit
03-10-2010, 12:01 AM
I'm back

Since the only plan I had got shot down by PV I'm hoping somone can help me out here in the way some box specs for my sub. I was thinking of doing a t-line but it really doesn't matter at this point. I just want SOMETHING to fill in the bottom end of my movies/music

Greekchaos666
05-14-2010, 09:33 AM
i just set up my system in my room i got 4 6x9s (im guessin 100 rms) 200W pioneer and 2 100rms 300w peak i forgot the name of the other brand but it sounds better then the pioneers. but my problem is none are in boxs (yes i know that would incresse the bass and sound) im working on it A regular home theter sub i think its yamaha 95 watt sub and a pegusas audio 10in 350rms 700 peak i also got mutiple speakers all kentwood bose and some offbrand 10 in sub i have a 200W amp i just copped from a buddie of mine and i kinda wanted some help from someone who knows there **** ill have pics very soon but in the mean time can somebody tell me what im doing wrong bc i know im ****ing up somewhere my weak speakers are all bridged together like the 2 bose that ****** 10 in sub which i personaly think is a speaker and a outdoor speaker i stole from my dad all hooked up to my 4.1 reciver thats old as **** can someone tell me step by step how to perfect my system make it like ya know actually slamming like a car would?