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View Full Version : Box bracing?



Bass911
11-23-2009, 04:23 PM
I know I should have built my box a little bigger to account for the bracing, but it's too late and I didn't. All I need to know is if adding bracing raises or lowers the tuning?

bubbagumper6
11-23-2009, 04:25 PM
I know I should have built my box a little bigger to account for the bracing, but it's too late and I didn't. All I need to know is if adding bracing raises or lowers the tuning?

Raises

hatedonmostly
11-23-2009, 04:27 PM
What did you use for bracing?

mlstrass
11-23-2009, 04:29 PM
how big is the enclosure, how do you know it even needs any bracing? Can you add bracing on the outside?

bhsdriller
11-23-2009, 04:29 PM
use threaded rod. Doesn't take up much room at all

Bass911
11-23-2009, 04:36 PM
The first one I built was 9.8 cu. ft. This one is 7 cu. ft. The first one was flexing like crazy and that's why I added braces to the second one. I used the triangular mdf braces. I might be able to knock a few of them out with a hammer, but that liquid nails is strong as hell?

hatedonmostly
11-23-2009, 04:38 PM
use threaded rod. Doesn't take up much room at all
I second this.

Toone
11-23-2009, 04:43 PM
The first one I built was 9.8 cu. ft. This one is 7 cu. ft. The first one was flexing like crazy and that's why I added braces to the second one. I used the triangular mdf braces. I might be able to knock a few of them out with a hammer, but that liquid nails is strong as hell?
liquid nails+MDF does not equal strong bond. liquid nails shouldnt be used on mdf at all.

Bass911
11-23-2009, 04:59 PM
liquid nails+MDF does not equal strong bond. liquid nails shouldnt be used on mdf at all.

I disagree. Sometimes you'll break the mdf before you could separate 2 pieces of mdf. The bond is strong enough for me. I also use screws. I have used wood glue on other boxes and I like liquid nails better. When I break a box apart I'll stop using liquid nails, but I have a better chance of getting struck by lightning.

Bass911
11-23-2009, 05:04 PM
I did the math and the internal volume dropped to 6.96 cubes. Maybe the tuning won't be raised that much?

Toone
11-23-2009, 05:05 PM
I disagree. Sometimes you'll break the mdf before you could separate 2 pieces of mdf. The bond is strong enough for me. I also use screws. I have used wood glue on other boxes and I like liquid nails better. When I break a box apart I'll stop using liquid nails, but I have a better chance of getting struck by lightning.
2 15"s and 1.2k blew a box i built with screws/liquid nails apart. more like wood slapping than exploding but w.e.

Bass911
11-23-2009, 05:08 PM
2 15"s and 1.2k blew a box i built with screws/liquid nails apart. more like wood slapping than exploding but w.e.

Well, what glue do you use?

Blue Fury
11-23-2009, 05:11 PM
I did the math and the internal volume dropped to 6.96 cubes. Maybe the tuning won't be raised that much?

What? How big is your box?

bubbagumper6
11-23-2009, 05:13 PM
2 15"s and 1.2k blew a box i built with screws/liquid nails apart. more like wood slapping than exploding but w.e.

User error. I've always used liquid nails and never had a problem. It laughs at my 18" BTL with 3000wrms.

Bass911
11-23-2009, 05:14 PM
What? How big is your box?

It was 7 cubes before the bracing and 6.96 after? I did some math and I don't think it will be a problem with the tuning.

bubbagumper6
11-23-2009, 05:16 PM
It was 7 cubes before the bracing and 6.96 after? I did some math and I don't think it will be a problem with the tuning.

There's no way you added MDF bracing and only took up .04 cubes...

Blue Fury
11-23-2009, 05:16 PM
Ohhhhh I read that wrong, I though you meant you calculated the new volume added to be 6.96cft.


There's no way you added MDF bracing and only took up .04 cubes...

I agree, re check your numbers because so far you're telling us you only added 9.6"x9.6" piece of MDF if the thickness is 3/4".


Do the math again, retake the class, or read more on adequate bracing.

Bass911
11-23-2009, 11:39 PM
Well you figure it out then! 25 x .75 x 3.5, is exactly how much mdf was used.

Blue Fury
11-23-2009, 11:50 PM
That little bit can hardly count.. specs/pics of the box?

newdude
12-14-2009, 07:07 PM
hd liquid nail works well do it all the time

Blue Fury
12-14-2009, 07:33 PM
hd liquid nail works well do it all the time

liquid nails =/= bracing

SPLluminator
12-14-2009, 07:41 PM
I use wood glue. Works for me. And id recommend threaded rod if your worried about space.

Lakota
12-15-2009, 12:32 AM
Liquid nails *****. I can break a liquid nails box apart so easily.

galacticmonkey
12-15-2009, 12:43 AM
I built my whole new box out of Liquid Nails, and alot of it was used in my van too. Stuff is crazy strong. It will break the wood before the joint breaks.

The woodglue is ok, but doesnt seem as strong as the Liquid Nails, IMO. And the Titebond, and all other woodglue is so runny. Makes a total mess. The Liquid Nails is thick and comes out in a nice bead and doesnt run.

newdude
12-15-2009, 12:45 AM
Well thee a different liquid nails there is just a wood a panneling a heavy duty I use the HD and many times tearing boxes apart broke wood before nail but they are also glued and other stuff on inside

on1wheel01
12-15-2009, 01:00 AM
On my boxes I use screws and tite bond 2 for the bond. Then liquid nail along the crevace just for that not goin anywhere feelin. I use to use l n only but i like the tite bond better yea it's runny but man strong as hell. Just do screws also get a counter sink bit and then if painting the box just cover the hole with bondo. Oh and bracing I use all thread looks mehh but man strong and does not affect internal space much at all.

PV Audio
12-15-2009, 02:00 AM
The first one I built was 9.8 cu. ft. This one is 7 cu. ft. The first one was flexing like crazy and that's why I added braces to the second one. I used the triangular mdf braces. I might be able to knock a few of them out with a hammer, but that liquid nails is strong as hell?
Liquid nails has no use in anything related to actual wood working. Wood glue is all you should be using. There is actually chemistry behind the difference, so unless you want to hear a treatise on bond types, then just trust me that by saving money and going with wood glue, you're actually getting the strongest bonding substance for wood.

galacticmonkey
12-16-2009, 12:38 AM
Liquid nails has no use in anything related to actual wood working. Wood glue is all you should be using. There is actually chemistry behind the difference, so unless you want to hear a treatise on bond types, then just trust me that by saving money and going with wood glue, you're actually getting the strongest bonding substance for wood.

I dont care what science is behind it, if the Liquid Nails is as strong/stronger and 10000x easier to work with, Im using it.

JBLCAMRY
12-16-2009, 12:42 AM
I dont care what science is behind it, if the Liquid Nails is as strong/stronger and 10000x easier to work with, Im using it.

:crap:

wood glue or no glue.

SicAudio
12-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Liquid nails *****. I can break a liquid nails box apart so easily.

video or ur full of shiat lol
i parked a 9600lb service truck on 2 small 3 cf boxes made with LN Projects tubes and it stayed that way for 3 months.
what do you think they use on houses for the subfloors and sheathing?

theMessenjah44
12-16-2009, 12:44 AM
use some PL Polyurethane adhesive. It comes in a caulking tube like liquid nails. It's a little thick to work with...but you won't find any better bond


**** on titebond....that ****'s too runny

S.B.C.
12-16-2009, 12:46 AM
use some PL Polyurethane adhesive. It comes in a caulking tube like liquid nails. It's a little thick to work with...but you won't find any better bond


**** on titebond....that ****'s too runny

ill **** on your sisters face :fyi:

SicAudio
12-16-2009, 12:46 AM
i use both depending on the box they are both pretty equal but LN is a lot easier.

SicAudio
12-16-2009, 12:47 AM
ill **** on your sisters face :fyi:

wow really?
video or ur full of it lolz

S.B.C.
12-16-2009, 12:48 AM
wow really?
video or ur full of it lolz

Yes really

Sorry bub, you gotta pay like everyone else :fyi:

SicAudio
12-16-2009, 12:53 AM
paypal rdy lolz

groundpound4200
12-16-2009, 12:53 AM
I glue all my seams with Titebond wood glue and then I do a bead of liquid nails ensure a proper seal :thumbsup:

Blue Fury
12-16-2009, 01:28 AM
How did this get turned into another glue thread?

Back to box bracing if it still applies to the OP

PV Audio
12-16-2009, 04:16 AM
use some PL Polyurethane adhesive. It comes in a caulking tube like liquid nails. It's a little thick to work with...but you won't find any better bond


**** on titebond....that ****'s too runny
I'm sorry to be so rude, but, how are people so **** dense? Wood glue is used to bond WOOD. It is chemically made to bond WOOD. Nothing bonds wood stronger than WOOD GLUE. The only time that you don't use wood glue when gluing wood is when you're in a huge hurry and have a large amount of product to make, aka, you're not giving attention to detail. Wood glue is the only thing that should be bonding your joints. Period. If you choose not to, then fine, but don't recommend it to other people because wood glue is used for WOOD and there is not a single reputable enclosure builder who does not use it.

If you want me to go into the reasons about physical bonds versus chemical bonds, then I will, but just to simplify it: liquid nails is like taking two pieces of plastic and super gluing them together, while wood glue is like taking the two pieces of plastic and melting them together to form one piece. Wood glue is used for wood, end of discussion. If you think it's not, then please go to any wood working forum or talk to any serious speaker builder and have them take your head off. WG is cheaper, works better, dries faster, sands easier and is simply the superior product. This isn't my arrogance, it's woodworking 101 and since enclosure building is often done with wood, then it applies here.

SicAudio
12-16-2009, 05:26 AM
pv i do agree for the most part but mdf is not wood bro, it is medium density fiber board, aka paper and waste wood, both work exceptionally well and while titebond is better it isnt by that much for MDF since MDF is chemically and pressure bonded to begin with, it is a hunk of waste materials and chemical glue pressed into a sheet basically, if we were talking birch or hardwood id would wanna slap anyone that thought LN is better or even useable but it works great for mdf.

Medium density fiberboard, or MDF, is a composite wood product similar to particleboard. It's made out of wood waste fibers glued together with resin, heat, and pressure. MDF is appropriate for many applications, from cabinetry to moulding, because it is smooth, uniform, and won't warp.

Builders use MDF in many capacities, such as in furniture, shelving, laminate flooring, decorative moulding, and doors. They value MDF for its insular qualities in sound and heat. Also, it can be nailed, glued, screwed, stapled, or attached with dowels, making it as versatile as plank wood. Usually, people working with MDF use a carbide saw fitted with a vacuum to reduce the amount of airborne dust. Since MDF is strengthened with resin containing formaldehyde, those at exposure try to reduce their risk of inhalation, or use special MDF with lower formaldehyde levels.


Medium-density fibreboard (MDF) is an engineered wood product formed by breaking down hardwood or softwood residuals into wood fibres, often in a defibrator, combining it with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.[1] MDF is much stronger and denser than plywood.

It is made up of separated fibers, (not wood veneers) but can be used as a building material similar in application to plywood. It is much more dense than normal particle board.


and this last one is why i also agree with you as well but disagree to a small degree too kind of a catch 22 ya know?

Q: What kinds of glues can I use with MDF?
A: Good glues to use are gap-filling glues such as polyvinyl acetate (PVA) typically known as yellow glue, modified PVA glues like Titebond II or white glues. Epoxy, urea and hot melt glues may also be used.


the good LN is pva or epoxy based the lower end stuff is resin and or toluene based

no disrespect intended so dont get me wrong, because we both know how much respect I do have for you. but while LN is not ideal it is an acceptable glue to use. titebond II is still better tho lolz i always use it hell it is 16$ a gallon lolz

theMessenjah44
12-16-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm sorry to be so rude, but, how are people so **** dense? Wood glue is used to bond WOOD. It is chemically made to bond WOOD. Nothing bonds wood stronger than WOOD GLUE. The only time that you don't use wood glue when gluing wood is when you're in a huge hurry and have a large amount of product to make, aka, you're not giving attention to detail. Wood glue is the only thing that should be bonding your joints. Period. If you choose not to, then fine, but don't recommend it to other people because wood glue is used for WOOD and there is not a single reputable enclosure builder who does not use it.

If you want me to go into the reasons about physical bonds versus chemical bonds, then I will, but just to simplify it: liquid nails is like taking two pieces of plastic and super gluing them together, while wood glue is like taking the two pieces of plastic and melting them together to form one piece. Wood glue is used for wood, end of discussion. If you think it's not, then please go to any wood working forum or talk to any serious speaker builder and have them take your head off. WG is cheaper, works better, dries faster, sands easier and is simply the superior product. This isn't my arrogance, it's woodworking 101 and since enclosure building is often done with wood, then it applies here.

Not rude, you make a legitimate point. However, I bought a display case of PL polyurethane construction adhesive and a big bottle of Titebond II (I hear Titebond III is better, if it truly is, I'll try it). I've taken a full year of wood shop in High School, and I'm aware of what wood glue is. While the Titebond did a fairly good job at bonding, I feel that the PL did much better. Also the PL is nice to run a bead across all seams to ensure everything is air tight. It also sets up extremely solid.

I don't know you, but I see you've been here a while so I'll assume that you're not new to this by any means. But if you've never tried the PL, give it a shot.

Pioneer~Saturn
12-20-2009, 01:05 PM
Not rude, you make a legitimate point. However, I bought a display case of PL polyurethane construction adhesive and a big bottle of Titebond II (I hear Titebond III is better, if it truly is, I'll try it). I've taken a full year of wood shop in High School, and I'm aware of what wood glue is. While the Titebond did a fairly good job at bonding, I feel that the PL did much better. Also the PL is nice to run a bead across all seams to ensure everything is air tight. It also sets up extremely solid.

I don't know you, but I see you've been here a while so I'll assume that you're not new to this by any means. But if you've never tried the PL, give it a shot.

PL two 6" x 6" pieces end-to-end together, just normal butt-joints clamped together...then do the same with two more 6" x 6" pieces but with wood glue (Titebond II is what I always use, id go for that)...let each set plenty of time (atleast let each set overnight) and then unclamp them and clamp one of the 2 pieces firmly to a workbench (both the PL and wood glue pieces)..

Now take a hammer and give the one on each set hanging in free air a good smack...I think you'll be sold with the results on which to use in the future

^And please actually do this so you will see the difference..The pieces that were wood-glued together should have mdf-failure around the glue joint...but the PL pieces, the glue itself should fail without effecting the mdf much because the bond isnt strong enough (this is assuming youre going to use mdf for this test). Like PV said, not to be rude, but a year of High School woodshop doesnt really mean much. Once youve taken cabinetry classes and things of that sort, then that starts to mean something.

Also, head to wood magazine's website and check out the pull-apart tests theyve done with wood glue, pretty much any other method of glueing the joints would simply end in the glue itself failing.

RAM_Designs
12-20-2009, 01:14 PM
video or ur full of shiat lol
i parked a 9600lb service truck on 2 small 3 cf boxes made with LN Projects tubes and it stayed that way for 3 months.
what do you think they use on houses for the subfloors and sheathing?
They use industrial grade subfloor adhesive...which is what I use on my boxes since I can grab some for free from work. The stuff is definitely stronger than liquid nails. It's actually able to bond together wet and frozen wood(pretty cool IMO). I did a little test with liquid nails(since my dad had some laying around) and the subfloor adhesive I use. Just cut some 12x12 pieces and clamped them together with some 90* clamps...let it sit overnight, and I could fairly easily break the liquid nails joint with my hands(just put the corner on my chest, pulled the ends towards me, and the glue failed). The subfloor adhesive, on the other hand, I could not. I actually had to put it on the floor, step on the flat panel, and kick the upright one in order for it to break...but it broke the MDF, not the bond between the glue and wood.

Liquid Nails just *****, IMO. There is a very noticeable difference from my experiences.

Pioneer~Saturn
12-20-2009, 01:16 PM
^Fair enough, as long as the mdf fails and the adhesive is still holding all of the mdf that it was bonded to then thats pretty much what youre looking for...I guess that would be acceptable. Though a better test for bonds, imo, would be to use a hardwood that wouldnt peel apart like mdf would...because the layers behind the bond will just simply fail whereas the hardwood would either totally fail or stay as one piece and pull apart from the adhesive. But since we're mainly using mdf, that wouldnt really matter :(

RAM_Designs
12-20-2009, 01:29 PM
^Fair enough, as long as the mdf fails and the adhesive is still holding all of the mdf that it was bonded to then thats pretty much what youre looking for...I guess that would be acceptable. Though a better test for bonds, imo, would be to use a hardwood that wouldnt peel apart like mdf would...because the layers behind the bond will just simply fail whereas the hardwood would either totally fail or stay as one piece and pull apart from the adhesive. But since we're mainly using mdf, that wouldnt really matter :(

I just had to correct him for the comment about what they use for the subfloors, since no one around here uses liquid nails for any of that stuff. They use subfloor adhesive from either GE or Dap. It's thicker than normal wood glue, which I like, and is **** near impossible to break or even get off your clothes. I have some on a shirt of mine that's been washed I don't know how many times. The subfloor adhesive is still there like the day it happened, and I can sometimes get some to peel off by picking at it for a while. But it's really more work than it's worth, so the adhesive stays on for now.

galacticmonkey
12-20-2009, 07:46 PM
I might do a test one day when if I have some extra wood.

But Ive built quite a few boxes out of Titebond and Liquid Nails. Both broke the MDF before the glue joint. From my experiences they are both good for adhesive, but the LN is a little stronger and much easier to work with being thick. Its nice when youre working on a wall or a hugeeee box to squirt a handfull of LN, hop inside the box and them take fingerfulls and smear it anywhere that needs to be sealed up or smoothed out.

bassman3
12-20-2009, 07:55 PM
lol at people thinking liquid nails is stronger than wood glue when it comes to wood.

galacticmonkey
12-20-2009, 07:59 PM
Have you actually ever built a box with it? Not seen someone do it, or seen a box built with it, but actually built one yourself?

JBLCAMRY
12-20-2009, 08:01 PM
Have you actually ever built a box with it? Not seen someone do it, or seen a box built with it, but actually built one yourself?

tried liquid nails once, not even close to the same bonding strength as Titebond when it comes to wood. :fyi:

Pioneer~Saturn
12-20-2009, 08:04 PM
Yea, if you did a legit pull-apart test with a weight sensor and everything like the wood magazine tests Id bet money on the wood glue winning hands down.

PV Audio
12-20-2009, 08:07 PM
Have you actually ever built a box with it? Not seen someone do it, or seen a box built with it, but actually built one yourself?
I started with liquid nails. There is no comparison in strength. The fact that people on here think that there is means that they simply are wasting money and don't understand the simplest of science: wood glue is meant to glue wood.

bassman3
12-20-2009, 08:10 PM
when i first started out building I used LN on my first couple of boxes to test it out. Yes, it easy easier to work with, but, it is definitely not as strong as titebond, which is what i switched to and use on all my enclosures now. I cannot believe this is even a discussion. If LN was stronger, dont you think any professional (enclosure builder or cabinet maker) would be using it?

PV Audio
12-20-2009, 08:11 PM
I think the reason why people are thinking LN or polyurethane glues are stronger is because they're using them differently. You need to clamp wood glue joints for the duration of the drying process. Whether that's with a clamp or with a screw it doesn't matter. Unclamped, it's strong, but not likely to be stronger than a construction adhesive. When clamped properly, NOTHING and I mean absolutely NOTHING is stronger for gluing wood. That's not my opinion, it is legitimate 100% FACT. One more time? When used as directed, wood glue will make the STRONGEST bond of any adhesive when gluing wood.

Arguing otherwise shows that you either haven't been using the glue properly or you are stubborn. As I said before: this isn't about car audio, it's about woodworking. We just happen to work with wood that needs to be glued together, so I hope that people would start either listening or stop telling others that more expensive and less effective products are better.

wenn_du_weinst
12-20-2009, 08:14 PM
I have built houses before and used plenty of pl before and I still use wood glue for my boxes

Bobby322
12-20-2009, 08:47 PM
Im using liquid nails on the box im building right now. The double baffle is clamped and drying over night....Ill see how it compares to the other 4 boxs in my garage