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Bandieramonte
08-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Hello,

I've just purchased two Polk Audio SR124-DVC subs, the Mb Quart amp DSC 1500.D to power them, and the Pioneer PRS800 head unit to augment SQ.

Now, my focus is to choose speakers for the middle and high frequencies in a SQ oriented way, but with enough SPL as to avoid being even a bit overpowered by the 1400 rms total power from the subs.

So, I've been looking for many types of speakers, and I don't know whether if I should go with 6x9'', two-way,three-way, 6x8'', 6.5'', 5.25'', components, individual 6'' or 8'' mids, individual tweeters, and the many more different types, or should I do a specific combination of some of those? I'm confused on which types of speaker would tend to deliver the best SQ and fidelity.

Also, which type of speaker goes bet in what part of the vehicle? This is for a 2007 Jeep Liberty. Perhaps I should for instance install components in the front door and a pair of three-way 6x9'' in the back? Or what's better for SQ purposes? My main priority is to concentrate on interior sound, and if the budget allows it, I may later focus on exterior open trunk sound.

What should I aim for?

After defining a SQ worth setup, we should later on this thread determine the good SQ oriented brands for each of the selected type of speakers.

Abarca
08-21-2009, 04:55 PM
if your going for a SQ vehicle, components are the only way to go for the front stage. Forget the rear speakers, either leave them stock or unhook them. (you wont hear them anyways). if you are hardheaded, not saying you are, think of a concert...where does all the sound come from? In front of you, thats why i said what i said about the rear speakers.

You will need another amplifier for your front speakers. SQ is a debatable subject because everyone has a different taste on what is Perfect Sound Quality. Its like asking: is a steak better cooked medium, or well done? some love a steak a lil pink, some love a steak fully cooked and kinda tough, and some are vegeterians and will tell you "you killed an animal u jerk"

the most important part of ANY system, is the install.


So, how do we find your "perfect" SQ for you???.....Budget! whats your budget for the front stage? Speakers, Amp, Sound Deadening, etc.. A good rule of thumb, is to spend as much on the front stage, if not more, as you spent on the sub stage.

cshaw
08-21-2009, 05:33 PM
sounds like you need to do more research. your going at it backwards. trying to build a front stage just to keep up with the sub stage is not how you should look at it. the sub stage should be the last thing you do to fill in what, that 40 hertz of the bottome of your hearing range as compared to the front stage that should do 98 % of the hearing spectrum like 60hz - 20k

FJF
08-21-2009, 05:39 PM
SQ is a debatable subject because everyone has a different taste on what is Perfect Sound Quality

...not really.

Bandieramonte
08-21-2009, 10:18 PM
if your going for a SQ vehicle, components are the only way to go for the front stage. Forget the rear speakers, either leave them stock or unhook them. (you wont hear them anyways)


But is a set of comps in the front door enough to balance 1400 rms of sub power? That is what worries me on only going front stage comps.



So, how do we find your "perfect" SQ for you???.....Budget! whats your budget for the front stage? Speakers, Amp, Sound Deadening, etc.. A good rule of thumb, is to spend as much on the front stage, if not more, as you spent on the sub stage.

Actually, I'm planning to spend more on these speakers that what I spent in the subs, since these speakers account for a greater range of the frequencies. So I really want to do this right.


sounds like you need to do more research. your going at it backwards. trying to build a front stage just to keep up with the sub stage is not how you should look at it. the sub stage should be the last thing you do to fill in what, that 40 hertz of the bottome of your hearing range as compared to the front stage that should do 98 % of the hearing spectrum like 60hz - 20k

Well, I can't go back, the subs are already bought. If what you say it's true, then as I said in my first post, please help me find the best mid and high frequency speakers that would work very good with those subs in a SQ way.

cshaw
08-22-2009, 02:09 PM
i say go to your local shops and have a listen to installs with different goals like spl or sq or sql.

i had this whole thing typed out, but found out your not installing it yourself.
just go to some websites and read reviews on comp sets. its not like one brand of speakers magically blends better with your subs than another lol its all in the install.

audiolife
08-22-2009, 03:36 PM
I would do kick panels and go with a coax mounted component set like Image dynamics CX or XS line, Kicker QS or RS lines, Memphis Sync or MB Quart PV series. Or go with ID horns like cd1eV.3 and mid bass in your doors.

eharri3
08-22-2009, 05:11 PM
HAHAHHAAHA this is like the 'SQ' thread where all the guy has done so far is like 6 8 inch subs. I too believe you are going backwards but that's OK. To most, car audio=loud thumping subs.

Most do not understand that to true SQ devotees, subs and sub amps are not the center point of the system. They are a necessary evil that exist to fill a purpose that no other driver can fill, but which brings inherent problems to the table such as the one you mention. You either do not really understand what you want, or do not understand how to obtain what you want from your system. At this point my suggestion is 2 sets of components and lots of power.

This site is hilarious, with people talking about SQ setups then mentioning that they are already throwing 1500-2000 watts to their substage and just want a front stage to keep up.

audiolife
08-22-2009, 05:24 PM
HAHAHHAAHA this is like the 'SQ' thread where all the guy has done so far is like 6 8 inch subs. I too believe you are going backwards but that's OK. To most, car audio=loud thumping subs.

Most do not understand that to true SQ devotees, subs and sub amps are not the center point of the system. They are a necessary evil that exist to fill a purpose that no other driver can fill, but which brings inherent problems to the table such as the one you mention. You either do not really understand what you want, or do not understand how to obtain what you want from your system. At this point my suggestion is 2 sets of components and lots of power.

This site is hilarious, with people talking about SQ setups then mentioning that they are already throwing 1500-2000 watts to their substage and just want a front stage to keep up.

Gotta show people what to do and throw ideas at them so they understand and can try. Sure bassheads seem lop sided in what they like but then again so is the tweek who is allcaught up to far in artsy fartsyness rather than actually weighing true advantages and disadvantages out.

Bandieramonte
08-22-2009, 07:23 PM
HAHAHHAAHA this is like the 'SQ' thread where all the guy has done so far is like 6 8 inch subs. I too believe you are going backwards but that's OK. To most, car audio=loud thumping subs.

Most do not understand that to true SQ devotees, subs and sub amps are not the center point of the system. They are a necessary evil that exist to fill a purpose that no other driver can fill, but which brings inherent problems to the table such as the one you mention. You either do not really understand what you want, or do not understand how to obtain what you want from your system. At this point my suggestion is 2 sets of components and lots of power.

This site is hilarious, with people talking about SQ setups then mentioning that they are already throwing 1500-2000 watts to their substage and just want a front stage to keep up.

Given that the SPL enthusiasts I've heard from usually have 3000+ rms in subs, I thought that 1400 rms in subs would be sufficiently small for a SQ setup. Also, consider that my subs are polk SR124-DVC, which are SQ oriented. But well, I think I should then aim to SQL. You suggested two sets of components, that would be in what places of the vehicle? And what amount of rms power would I need in them to balance with those subs?


i say go to your local shops and have a listen to installs with different goals like spl or sq or sql.

i had this whole thing typed out, but found out your not installing it yourself.
just go to some websites and read reviews on comp sets. its not like one brand of speakers magically blends better with your subs than another lol its all in the install.

Believe me, I've read many many reviews of many different types of components and speaker setups, and ended up even more confused due to the wideness of this topic. That's why I made this thread to see what SQL (as it turned out to be) speakers setup can I combine with those subs.

I think that the components is the best setup I can do in the front stage, but am unsure on what to do elsewhere in the vehicle since just one comp seems to be overpowered by those subs. I Don't know what sounds better between 2 pairs of 6x9'' speakers, or 2 individual mids and 2 individual tweeters, or any other kind of speakers out there. Or perhaps this got nothing to do with sound quality and I should instead focus on the brands?

LaserRed38
08-22-2009, 08:17 PM
Hey man. Good start would be to match up your subs to the Polk SR speakers. They are a great set and were engineered to be a good match for the SR subs. I'm pretty sure you would be satisfied with a set of them.

LaserRed38
08-22-2009, 08:21 PM
I also think you would be fine with one sub. I'd install one in a sealed box when you get your new speakers and see if it provides sufficient low end for you. I think it will. Then you can sell the other and make back some money.

Bandieramonte
08-22-2009, 08:37 PM
Your idea sounds good, I've seen so many positive reviews from the SR6500 comps, and am really inclined on matching a polk SR sub with those comps. But I really don't want to sell a sub, even if this means sacrificing SQ to go SQL.

In that case, does it make sense to do 2 of those subs, but in this case installing two SR6500 comps?

Would that sound fine? Are the subs going to overpower them?

LaserRed38
08-22-2009, 08:51 PM
Well the thing is, you can always turn the bass down. But the way I see it is, if you turn the bass down to a level that one single sub would provide...then you've wasted the money and trunk space installing both. That's why I recommend just trying one out first. For 2 12s off that amount of power, as long as you give your components enough power, there is no need to do 2 sets of components in front. It will just be a headache installing 2 sets of mid and 2 sets of tweeters. Aiming, tuning, time alignment will all be a lot more work, not to mention finding/making room for 2 6.5s a side. My philosophy is start out with the least amount of work/components possible. Go from there. You may be satisfied with one sub and one set of components.

DidUHearThat?
08-22-2009, 08:56 PM
These sound great. Maybe not for your application.

http://www.dbaudio.com/en/systems/j_series/j12/index_html#app

http://www.dbaudio.com/glob/pics/prod/j8_j12_w.jpghttp://www.orbitalsound.co.uk/gfx/products/dandb-j12-loudspeaker.gifhttp://www.orbitalsound.co.uk/gfx/products/dandb-j-series-a.gif

http://www.orbitalsound.co.uk/gfx/products/dandb-j-series-conf-a-lg.gif

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/fa/12490/0/

With these subs:

http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/uploads/balt2_subs.jpg

Bandieramonte
08-22-2009, 09:17 PM
Those subs would not fit in my vehicle, and, remember, I'm not aiming for SPL. As you said, they aren't for my application.

Bandieramonte
08-22-2009, 09:21 PM
Well the thing is, you can always turn the bass down. But the way I see it is, if you turn the bass down to a level that one single sub would provide...then you've wasted the money and trunk space installing both. That's why I recommend just trying one out first. For 2 12s off that amount of power, as long as you give your components enough power, there is no need to do 2 sets of components in front. It will just be a headache installing 2 sets of mid and 2 sets of tweeters. Aiming, tuning, time alignment will all be a lot more work, not to mention finding/making room for 2 6.5s a side. My philosophy is start out with the least amount of work/components possible. Go from there. You may be satisfied with one sub and one set of components.

I understand, so, you mean that even two SR comps at their full potential wont do well with both SR subs? I see that the alignment and tuning would be harder, but I'm thinking that the Pioneer PRS800 head unit would solve that. And if it's hard to install two comps in the front door, is it a terrible idea to install the second comp set in the trunk, or in the back doors?

LaserRed38
08-22-2009, 10:01 PM
Up to you man. Your sq seems more like you want it loud and clear. In that case go for it. Both subs and comps in the rear. That would give you that dance club "surround sound" loudness. I strive for accurate reproduction, imaging and sound stage though, as if I'm at a concert in my drivers seat. That doesn't seem like what you're looking for, and that's fine but not my taste. If youre looking for a really loud system and want it to have clear detailed frequecy response, but don't care about imaging and sound stage, then yes your way should be fine for you. Before you buy anything else though, I'd meet up with some of the SQ guys in your area and take a listen to some other systems...

Bandieramonte
08-22-2009, 10:11 PM
In the country I live in (Venezuela), all the car audio enthusiasts are busy concerned with pure SPL systems, and all the car shows and competitions are SPL oriented, that's why this process has been so hard for me.. got no SQ or SQL cars to listen myself :(

I really appreciate your help in trying to define the closest SQ system possible for me and those subs. I thought that with those subs, I could install a comp in the front door to achieve good imaging and concert-like audio, while at the same time installing a second comp in the rear so as to balance the power from the subs, without sacrificing much SQ. But it seems this is hard.

So, what is more acceptable for better sound: one comp in the front and one in the rear, or both set of comps in the rear? (or is there anything else I can do to try and achieve a closer concert-like sound with those subs?)

bass_lover1
08-22-2009, 10:54 PM
I vote for pro audio mids (B&C, 18Sound), they can handle loads of power, are efficient as hell, and you'll have a better chance of them not sounding like *** at high volumes.

Bandieramonte
08-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Ok, I narrowed my amp search on one of the following amp setups, depending on the final mids and highs setup I decide to pursue:

1 amp JBL GTO1004 or
2 amps Focal Solid 4

Regarding the mids and highs speakers, I narrowed my search to the following final choices (all these are adjusted to my maximum available budget):

1 set polk SR6500 front stage
1 set Focal 165A1 for the trunk

1 set polk SR6500 front stage
1 pair Alpine SPS-600 for the trunk

1 set polk MMC6500 front stage
2 sets Focal 165A1 for the trunk

1 set polk MMC6500 front stage
2 pairs Alpine SPS-600 for the trunk

1 set polk MMC6500 front stage
1 set polk MMC6500 for the trunk

1 set polk MMC6500 front stage
1 pair mids powerbass 4XL-65-92 in the trunk
1 pair super tweeters powerbass S-1s in the trunk

1 set polk MMC6500 front stage
1 pair mids Eminence Beta-6a in the trunk
1 pair super tweeters Super Tweeter Jbl P26t in the trunk

1 set of focal 165 A1 front stage
1 set of focal 165 A1 rear doors
2 sets of focal 165 A1 for the trunk

Well, those are my possible choices available in the local market, and one of both amp setups should be chosen depending on the choice for mids and highs speakers.

Please remember that, while it seems that I can't pursue a pure SQ system having two subs at 1400 rms total, my main goal is to achieve the best possible sounding system with the two polk SR124-DVC subs and the PRS800 pioneer head unit(want more SQ than SPL), without any frequency range overpowering the other. Also, remember this is for a 2007 Jeep Liberty.

okiedokie
08-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Why Polk???? mmc line???, I've heard them they are ok for the price.
why rear fill???? & you are trying for SQ! interesting.
The Focal amps are really nice,& the Polk SR subs sound really nice as well.
but have you looked into IDMAX for subs??? or the ID comps for your front speakers???
What about deadener??? it's just as important as the speakers!
placement & aiming your tweeters & mids will have a great effect on you front stage as well.

LaserRed38
08-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Dude read the thread.



But he does have a point. Have you factored in deadening and wiring? That being said, the Focal Access comps are for very budgeted installs. They're pretty crappy IMO. Honestly just go for a set of SR6500 in front, and some of the Momo coaxs in the rear. Pick up a matching MB Quart 4ch and you'll be good. The Momo line used to be pretty decent, but idk about the current stuff. You won't be using your head unit to it's full potential not running active, but this will be a great set up to get you going for a while.

LaserRed38
08-23-2009, 11:18 PM
Btw, how are you installing your subs? I hope you're making a custom enclosure for them. It would be a shame to run them in a prefab box.

Also, down the road. If you ever want to mess with active, your Pioneer has built in crossovers and slopes. You can mix and match different mids/tweeters or run your current comps active to start and maybe at another mid. Just food for thought for you to consider down the road.

FJF
08-24-2009, 11:45 AM
Of you opt for SR6500s, make sure you're comfortable tuning them. I posted a review of the speakers with some discussion about tuning. You should be able to find it with a quick search.

James Bang
08-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Treating your vehicle to be as acoustically friendly as possible is probably the best thing you can for this monster many call SQ.

Bandieramonte
08-24-2009, 02:19 PM
Of you opt for SR6500s, make sure you're comfortable tuning them. I posted a review of the speakers with some discussion about tuning. You should be able to find it with a quick search.

I did the search, found the thread you started titled "Polk SR6500 review", followed the link you mentioned in your opening post:

http://caraudio-forum.com/forums/?showtopic=1436

and it appears to be broken.. I would really like to see your review, can you send me the good link?

FJF
08-24-2009, 02:24 PM
I did the search, found the thread you started titled "Polk SR6500 review", followed the link you mentioned in your opening post:

http://caraudio-forum.com/forums/?showtopic=1436

and it appears to be broken.. I would really like to see your review, can you send me the good link?

There was a recent server change that may have thrown things out of whack. Try this one:

http://www.caraudio-forum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1436-polk-sr6500-component-speakers/

Bandieramonte
08-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Dude read the thread.



But he does have a point. Have you factored in deadening and wiring? That being said, the Focal Access comps are for very budgeted installs. They're pretty crappy IMO. Honestly just go for a set of SR6500 in front, and some of the Momo coaxs in the rear. Pick up a matching MB Quart 4ch and you'll be good. The Momo line used to be pretty decent, but idk about the current stuff. You won't be using your head unit to it's full potential not running active, but this will be a great set up to get you going for a while.

I just read first page of squeak9798's Proper Door Sound Deadening and You thread, and the more I read about this SQ business, the more I realize I got much to learn... This is not going to be easy for me considering the country I live in is dead to SQ: there is no availability of appropriate deadening materials nor specialized installers that do so. This would be more of a longer term process for me. I should try this first install, and later try an augmented install considering this process.

When you say Momo Coaxs, are you referring to the MMC6500 comps? The MB Quart 4ch amp is nice, but unfortunately I got no availability here in the local store (Venezuela has narrow availability due to importing barriers). The good amps available are both of those I mentioned before; the rest are lanzar, power acoustic, and similar brands... crappy imo


Btw, how are you installing your subs? I hope you're making a custom enclosure for them. It would be a shame to run them in a prefab box.

Also, down the road. If you ever want to mess with active, your Pioneer has built in crossovers and slopes. You can mix and match different mids/tweeters or run your current comps active to start and maybe at another mid. Just food for thought for you to consider down the road.

Of course I'm making a custom enclosure, exactly complying with the SR's white paper, taking in account woofer displacemtent, Qtc factors, etc. I never have messed with active or passive, but I will be trying the different functionalities of crossover, time alignment, auto eq, xover, etc etc when I install the sound in my car, but the last things missing are the highs and mids (which I just learned that I did this backwards:().

So, you think that, from the choices list I just posted, the SR6500 front stage together with the momo coaxs (still waiting to see if you meant MMC6500) in the rear, would be the best sounding one from within those? And also, if I power them to the max rms, could it keep pace with the 2 subs?

Bandieramonte
08-25-2009, 04:29 PM
Any more insights onto my post #21?

BlackMaxima
08-26-2009, 12:48 AM
no one said you cannot have a SQ system with 1400W for a substage. I would put them in a sealed box and turn the bass down a little if needed it and for the front just put one set of comps not two sets.

BlackMaxima
08-26-2009, 12:53 AM
Dude read the thread.



But he does have a point. Have you factored in deadening and wiring? That being said, the Focal Access comps are for very budgeted installs. They're pretty crappy IMO. Honestly just go for a set of SR6500 in front, and some of the Momo coaxs in the rear. Pick up a matching MB Quart 4ch and you'll be good. The Momo line used to be pretty decent, but idk about the current stuff. You won't be using your head unit to it's full potential not running active, but this will be a great set up to get you going for a while.



thats what i was going to say , upgrade to a SR6500 in the front .

LaserRed38
08-26-2009, 01:48 AM
Coaxials are speakers that have the tweeter mounted on top of the mid so they both fit in the same location as one unit. Most people who run rear speakers just throw some coaxs in back because it's less work and if you power the front comps properly, you shouldn't even hear the rears anyway. That's why I've been saying don't bother, because you being the driver, you want your subs to blend in with your front stage so that they're more of a lower extension of your mids, if that makes sense. If you tune your system this way, having rear speakers will throw this off because it will pull the sound behind you. And a properly powered/aimed/installed front stage will be clearly audible from the rear seats.

But...if you are set on running rear speakers, just throw some decent coaxials back there with a little bit of deadener and see how you like it.

Bandieramonte
08-26-2009, 09:50 AM
I like your advice of just running a very nice set of comp in the front, like the SR6500, being sufficiently powered and well aimed.
However, I'm concerned on whether if the 2 subs will overpower the single SR comp or not, even if the comp is fully powered. I remember that in your posts #12 and #14 you explained that I should sell one SR sub and go with one SR comp. However, I would really want to find a way to have a balanced system working with the two subs (even if that means sacrificing some little SQ). That's why the idea of rear coaxials was brought to the table. If the set of comp is enough, I would leave it like that, without coaxials in the rear.

I hope I'm not asking too much when trying to fit a SQ system with those subs, I'm just trying to achieve a really good sounding system, and at the same time being balanced without any speaker overpowering the other.

Bandieramonte
08-27-2009, 01:15 PM
This is almost solved, please help me with the last issue in my previous post.

DidUHearThat?
08-27-2009, 04:15 PM
There is no danger of "overpower" the subs with the front stage. That's why you have an adjustment in your headunit. If it's too much bass, just turn it down or vise versa.

Just add the best front stage componets you can afford. Install them really well and learn how to adjust your settings. You will adjust them frequently for different songs, albums or when you turn the volume up or down. The loudness curve will force you to adjust the lows and highs down when you turn up the volume, and up when you turn the volume down. That's normal.

Bandieramonte
08-30-2009, 05:45 AM
Ok, I've decided I would definitely go with only the SR6500 comp front stage. Now, I'm trying to see which is the best amp setup for powering them. A polk specialist informed that the mids from that comp can handle 150 rms, while the tweeters 80 rms. I would like to power the comp to their max potential. So I'm trying to find an amp setup that would do this. Also, please remember that SQ is the main focus, so the amp setup must be SQ oriented. Since I don't have much availability here, these are the choices I have:

- 1 Focal Solid 4 to power the tweeters, leaving 2 channels free. 1 Kenwood KAC-7203 to power the mids.

- 1 Mb Quart Dsc-2150 to power the mids, 1 Mb Quart Dsc-280 to power the tweeters. According to the official manual, this amps only manage a frequency range of 10hz-1.2khz, which I'm not sure whether if this would sound horrible with mids and tweeters, considering they are in higher frequencies. Please help me clear this.

- 1 JBL GTO1004 bi amped to the SR6500

- 1 Focal Solid 4 bi amped to the SR6500

-1 Kicker Zx 850.4

Which one do you think would be better?

JimJ
08-30-2009, 10:23 AM
- 1 Focal Solid 4 bi amped to the SR6500

That.


I would like to power the comp to their max potential.

Which has really nothing to do with power ratings. If you sent them that much power, I doubt you'd be able to sit in the car, it'd sound so hideous :)

FJF
08-30-2009, 10:25 AM
:banghead:

If you read the review that I link'd, the methodology should be pretty clear.

Bandieramonte
08-30-2009, 12:08 PM
:banghead:

If you read the review that I link'd, the methodology should be pretty clear.

Yes, I read that so a pair of days ago and didn't remember. I see you had the Zapco AG 350 amp to move the mids, and the ARC mini amp to move the tweeters. I quote:
The bass dynamics were unprecedented IME with car speakers, helped in no small part by the Zapco pushing the drivers
I attribute much of the dynamic contrast to the synergistic relationship between the SR mids and the AG350 driving them.


So it seems it's really worth it to amp the mids and tweeters separately. In that case, which of the amp setups I posted would you recommend me more? (Also, please help me clear whether if the Mb Quart amps cap on the highest possible frequency range of 1.2khz would actually greatly limit the potential for the mids and tweeters)

DidUHearThat?
08-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Go with JimJ's suggestion.


1 Focal Solid 4 bi amped to the SR6500

Add lots of Second Skin to both inner and outer panels, MDF rings and good wiring (power, speaker and RCA).

Bandieramonte
08-30-2009, 09:48 PM
And how does the Focal Solid 4 compares to JBL's GTO 1004? The later has more power, and their quality seem to be similar.

Their parameters for THD and Signal/Noise are very good. So if the JBL has more power, shouldn't I go with it?

BlackMaxima
08-31-2009, 01:30 AM
Ok, I've decided I would definitely go with only the SR6500 comp front stage. Now, I'm trying to see which is the best amp setup for powering them. A polk specialist informed that the mids from that comp can handle 150 rms, while the tweeters 80 rms. I would like to power the comp to their max potential. So I'm trying to find an amp setup that would do this. Also, please remember that SQ is the main focus, so the amp setup must be SQ oriented. Since I don't have much availability here, these are the choices I have:

- 1 Focal Solid 4 to power the tweeters, leaving 2 channels free. 1 Kenwood KAC-7203 to power the mids.

- 1 Mb Quart Dsc-2150 to power the mids, 1 Mb Quart Dsc-280 to power the tweeters. According to the official manual, this amps only manage a frequency range of 10hz-1.2khz, which I'm not sure whether if this would sound horrible with mids and tweeters, considering they are in higher frequencies. Please help me clear this.

- 1 JBL GTO1004 bi amped to the SR6500

- 1 Focal Solid 4 bi amped to the SR6500

-1 Kicker Zx 850.4

Which one do you think would be better?



My vote would go to Arc audio KS 300.4. if you had that up there with the other choices lol. for the price the Focal Solid 4 looks good. But i still go with a Arc audio KS 300.4 given the choice :veryhapp:

FJF
08-31-2009, 11:02 AM
Yes, I read that so a pair of days ago and didn't remember. I see you had the Zapco AG 350 amp to move the mids, and the ARC mini amp to move the tweeters. I quote:
The bass dynamics were unprecedented IME with car speakers, helped in no small part by the Zapco pushing the drivers
I attribute much of the dynamic contrast to the synergistic relationship between the SR mids and the AG350 driving them.


I've since upgraded the amplification to a Zapco Ref200.2 for the tweeters and a (bridged) pair of Zapco AG350s on the mids. The tweeters are very revealing, which drove the need for better amplification. As I'm sure that your car doesn't generate and transmit as much noise as mine, you probably won't need this much power.


So it seems it's really worth it to amp the mids and tweeters separately. In that case, which of the amp setups I posted would you recommend me more? (Also, please help me clear whether if the Mb Quart amps cap on the highest possible frequency range of 1.2khz would actually greatly limit the potential for the mids and tweeters)

Could you post a link for the MBQ amp?

You most definitely want to amplify the mids and the tweeters separately. I'm assuming that you want to use the stock crosovers. As I went over in the review in some detail, the x-overs don't offer much of an adjustment range for the tweeters. Installed as described, the speakers sound overly bright - an understatement to be sure. Bi-amping the setup would give you an easy way of controlling the tweeter level, regardless, and would allow for much easier tuning of the system as a whole.

As I haven't heard any of the amps you mentioned in my system, I can't recommend one over another.

Bandieramonte
08-31-2009, 12:26 PM
I've since upgraded the amplification to a Zapco Ref200.2 for the tweeters and a (bridged) pair of Zapco AG350s on the mids. The tweeters are very revealing, which drove the need for better amplification. As I'm sure that your car doesn't generate and transmit as much noise as mine, you probably won't need this much power.



Could you post a link for the MBQ amp?

You most definitely want to amplify the mids and the tweeters separately. I'm assuming that you want to use the stock crosovers. As I went over in the review in some detail, the x-overs don't offer much of an adjustment range for the tweeters. Installed as described, the speakers sound overly bright - an understatement to be sure. Bi-amping the setup would give you an easy way of controlling the tweeter level, regardless, and would allow for much easier tuning of the system as a whole.

As I haven't heard any of the amps you mentioned in my system, I can't recommend one over another.

The spec sheet for those Mb Quart amps can be found here. (http://www.maxxsonics.net/manuals/mbquart/pdfs/MBQuart08DiscusAmplifierManual.pdf) Almost everyone recommends me to bi amp with the Focal Solid 4, but my concern with it is that it will only send 80 rms to the mids, and I want more power for them!! So that has got me undecided still, and that's why I asked post #42, still left without answer. I don't know if I can bi amp with the JBL amp but sending 90 rms to all channels so as to avoid blowing the tweeters, or send 100 rms on two channels to the mids, and 80 rms on the rest two channels to the tweeters.

And about going two amps separately, I still got no insights onto this! The only good powerful and affordable two channel amp for powering the mids I got available here is the KAC-7203, and I don't know whether if it's a good option to power the mids. The other way is with the MB Quarts I posted, but still don't know because of its frequency response cap it specifies.

So I really would want to do something similar like bi amping with the focal solid 4, but with more power and still preserving the same quality SQ level. May that be possible with any of the other amps I posted?

FJF
08-31-2009, 12:40 PM
The spec sheet for those Mb Quart amps can be found here. (http://www.maxxsonics.net/manuals/mbquart/pdfs/MBQuart08DiscusAmplifierManual.pdf)

I can't say that I've ever seen a full-range amplifier spec'd like the MBQ. If you like the amp, ignore the spec. It's not like they're never posted strange specs in the past.


Almost everyone recommends me to bi amp with the Focal Solid 4, but my concern with it is that it will only send 80 rms to the mids, and I want more power for them!! So that has got me undecided still, and that's why I asked post #42, still left without answer. I don't know if I can bi amp with the JBL amp but sending 90 rms to all channels so as to avoid blowing the tweeters, or send 100 rms on two channels to the mids, and 80 rms on the rest two channels to the tweeters.

1. The difference between 80wpc and 100wpc is of no real consequence.

2. Don't concentrate on the wattage. For all intents and purposes, it's meaningless in this application. Buy the amp you like, bi-amp the speakers via their x-overs, and set the gains with your ears.


And about going two amps separately, I still got no insights onto this! The only good powerful and affordable two channel amp for powering the mids I got available here is the KAC-7203, and I don't know whether if it's a good option to power the mids. The other way is with the MB Quarts I posted, but still don't know because of its frequency response cap it specifies.

Sounds like going with a higher quality 4-channel may be best.


So I really would want to do something similar like bi amping with the focal solid 4, but with more power and still preserving the same quality SQ level. May that be possible with any of the other amps I posted?

What car is this going into and how will the speakers be installed? Do you normally play the system at very high volume?

Bandieramonte
08-31-2009, 01:33 PM
I can't say that I've ever seen a full-range amplifier spec'd like the MBQ. If you like the amp, ignore the spec. It's not like they're never posted strange specs in the past.


Ok, but even so, what if the real cap is 20khz? This would still limit the tweeters' brightness, and I would enjoy a bit more the music having more ample upper frequencies.



1. The difference between 80wpc and 100wpc is of no real consequence.

2. Don't concentrate on the wattage. For all intents and purposes, it's meaningless in this application. Buy the amp you like, bi-amp the speakers via their x-overs, and set the gains with your ears.

This means that I could bi amp to the JBL GTO1004 and set the power so that the amp sends to 90 rms per channel?



Sounds like going with a higher quality 4-channel may be best.

Well, considering the people's recommendation, the Focal Solid 4 seems to be the better quality than the JBL GTO1004



What car is this going into and how will the speakers be installed? Do you normally play the system at very high volume?


This is going into a 2007 Jeep Liberty, where I will have two SR124-DVC subs in the trunk (for 1300 rms power with the Mb Quart DSC 1500.D), the SR6500 comp will be front stage, installing the tweeters on-axis, and the mids where the stock mids are, powered with the ???? amp(s), and the Pioneer 800PRS head unit. Because I will have plenty of power on the subs, I'm concerned on the power from the comps, wanting the most I can get from them. I normally like to listen the music with the highest volume such that no even a single bit of distortion comes out. (as soon as distortion comes, I lower the volume, though I don't know how would this be with my new system, since before I just had 2 CVR 15'' and 4 7x10 80rms kenwood speakers all in the rear, sounding like ****)

FJF
08-31-2009, 01:59 PM
Ok, but even so, what if the real cap is 20khz? This would still limit the tweeters' brightness, and I would enjoy a bit more the music having more ample upper frequencies.

The amp may reach higher than 20K, but that's of little relevance. If the Liberty is as quiet as a tomb, and it probably isn't, there isn't much to be concerned with past ~16K. Sure, there's room ambiance and air, but that isn't going to be much of a factor here.


This means that I could bi amp to the JBL GTO1004 and set the power so that the amp sends to 90 rms per channel?

I don't think you understand. Numbers like 90 watts and 100 watts have no practical meaning in this application. Don't worry about it. It's not a concern. Tune the system with your ears and everything will fall into place.


Well, considering the people's recommendation, the Focal Solid 4 seems to be the better quality than the JBL GTO1004

OK.



This is going into a 2007 Jeep Liberty, where I will have two SR124-DVC subs in the trunk (for 1300 rms power with the Mb Quart DSC 1500.D), the SR6500 comp will be front stage, installing the tweeters on-axis, and the mids where the stock mids are, powered with the ???? amp(s), and the Pioneer 800PRS head unit. Because I will have plenty of power on the subs, I'm concerned on the power from the comps, wanting the most I can get from them. I normally like to listen the music with the highest volume such that no even a single bit of distortion comes out. (as soon as distortion comes, I lower the volume, though I don't know how would this be with my new system, since before I just had 2 CVR 15'' and 4 7x10 80rms kenwood speakers all in the rear, sounding like ****)

You did mention that it was a Liberty earlier and I spaced it. My bad.

When you say the tweeters will sit on-axis, will you be building pods for them?

As for the subs, let's go through a basic tuning scenario. Say, your system is installed and you're sitting in the car. Everything is set to flat in the HU, the subs are turned-off. You play a familiar track that's recorded at a high level and adjust the gain on the mids. After that, you adjust the gain on the tweeters as the mids are playing at a preferred volume. Notice how the subs are still turned-off.

Once you're happy with the speakers, then you turn-on the subs, turn them all the way down, and begin to bring up their volume to blend with the front speakers.

So, you see, the power you're giving the subs doesn't have much relevance here. The subs are a secondary factor.

Bandieramonte
08-31-2009, 02:33 PM
The amp may reach higher than 20K, but that's of little relevance. If the Liberty is as quiet as a tomb, and it probably isn't, there isn't much to be concerned with past ~16K. Sure, there's room ambiance and air, but that isn't going to be much of a factor here.

So you mean that with the Liberty, It would be the same to have frequency response of up to 20khz, than up to 30khz?



I don't think you understand. Numbers like 90 watts and 100 watts have no practical meaning in this application. Don't worry about it. It's not a concern. Tune the system with your ears and everything will fall into place.

My question was more on the technical side. I've never done a bi amp setup, and I don't know if bi amping means that the amp is necessarily going to send all the power it has per channel without possibility of lowering the power the amp sends(e.g. 100 rms per channel) posing a threat to the tweeters.
Also, does any 4 channel amp support bi amping? (this is specifically to know if the JBL amp supports bi amping too as the focal solid 4)





You did mention that it was a Liberty earlier and I spaced it. My bad.

When you say the tweeters will sit on-axis, will you be building pods for them?

As for the subs, let's go through a basic tuning scenario. Say, your system is installed and you're sitting in the car. Everything is set to flat in the HU, the subs are turned-off. You play a familiar track that's recorded at a high level and adjust the gain on the mids. After that, you adjust the gain on the tweeters as the mids are playing at a preferred volume. Notice how the subs are still turned-off.

Once you're happy with the speakers, then you turn-on the subs, turn them all the way down, and begin to bring up their volume to blend with the front speakers.

So, you see, the power you're giving the subs doesn't have much relevance here. The subs are a secondary factor.

Yes, I will probably build some pods for the tweeters. I really understood your description about the subs. Since I'm so new to this SQ business, I got much to learn. When I get my system, I will better understand your explanation.

FJF
09-01-2009, 12:09 PM
So you mean that with the Liberty, It would be the same to have frequency response of up to 20khz, than up to 30khz?

The media, itself, doesn't support extensional to 30K. Have you ever tried listening to a 20K tone in a moving car? It's essentially inaudible. Which ever amp you get will extend high enough.



My question was more on the technical side. I've never done a bi amp setup, and I don't know if bi amping means that the amp is necessarily going to send all the power it has per channel without possibility of lowering the power the amp sends(e.g. 100 rms per channel) posing a threat to the tweeters.

You're familiar with the concept of gain, right? When you setup the system and blend the drivers, you will set the gain on the amp appropriately. As such, the amplifier will be sending the power that's right for each driver. I honestly don't know how to explain this any differently than what's already been covered. There may be a language issue at play. Perhaps you could search around the web and find an explanation that's easier for you to understand.

If someone else can explain this more clearly, please feel free to join in.



Also, does any 4 channel amp support bi amping? (this is specifically to know if the JBL amp supports bi amping too as the focal solid 4)

The SR crossovers support bi-amping. This means that you'll be using an amp channel to power each driver: 4 drivers (2 mids and 2 tweeters), 4 amp channels in a 4ch amp.



Yes, I will probably build some pods for the tweeters. I really understood your description about the subs. Since I'm so new to this SQ business, I got much to learn. When I get my system, I will better understand your explanation.

I think you'll see how everything falls into place, once the system is in the car. Good luck.

Bandieramonte
09-01-2009, 12:47 PM
The media, itself, doesn't support extensional to 30K. Have you ever tried listening to a 20K tone in a moving car? It's essentially inaudible. Which ever amp you get will extend high enough.

Interesting. So the SR6500's extension to 30khz would prove to be practically useless. I'm guessing whether if a good sound deadening in the car would allow me to listen higher frequencies.



You're familiar with the concept of gain, right? When you setup the system and blend the drivers, you will set the gain on the amp appropriately. As such, the amplifier will be sending the power that's right for each driver. I honestly don't know how to explain this any differently than what's already been covered. There may be a language issue at play. Perhaps you could search around the web and find an explanation that's easier for you to understand.

If someone else can explain this more clearly, please feel free to join in.

Don't worry, I now understand this.

LaserRed38
09-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Lol dude, depending on your age, you probably don't even hear anything higher than 14-16k hz anyway! I have that dog whistle app on my iPhone and it's funny to give people random hearing tests. My grandpa doesn't hear past 7k hahaha, but he's 80. On the other hand my 4 year old cousin heard the 20k tone clear as day. I don't hear much past 17k and I'm about to be 22.

It's good that you're trying to do a lot of research, but you're making it too complicated for yourself. Grab the speakers and an amp and play with them! It's the best way to learn. It's just my OCD-ness, but I'd get whatever 4ch amp matches your sub amp. It just cleans up the install and looks nicer to have matching amps when you open the back up for people to look at. At this point in your experience, you won't notice different amp manufacturers' characteristics. And for the record, neither would I, I'm pretty sure.