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View Full Version : Center channel MTM for Logitech Z-5500.



bustaplz
04-25-2009, 05:41 PM
I just ordered these components to build a custom center channel for my Logitech Z-5500 system that I run on my computer.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-804
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-302 x2
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-144

In the future I will probably upgrade to a decent reciever and some different surround speakers. I replaced the fronts with a pair of Sony bookshelf speakers that I've had around for a while and liked the sound better so I'm going to upgrade the center channel. I'm probably going to build a new subwoofer box when I build this center channel to use a spare RE SR10D4 that I have.

This is a sketchup of the enclosure I have planned. It should be about .4 cubic feet tuned to 55hz after displacement. I used WINISD to do the calculations as I've never build a ported box for anything but subwoofers, but the response curve looked good for the woofers. It will act as a monitor stand also, that is why it is taller in the front, to fit the 5.25" woofers but keep my monitor at eye level. Anyone see any problems with my little plan? The center channel of the amp is rated at I think 69W@8ohms RMS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/bustaplz/CenterChannelMTM.jpg

Fast1one
04-28-2009, 09:36 PM
I don't understand the fascination with an MTM center channel. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

One of advantages to running MTM setups is you reduce dispersion in the vertical plane, thereby reducing reflections caused by the ceiling- and more importantly- the floor ( floor bounce cancellation).

What happens when when you tip it on its side? Reduced dispersion in the HORIZONTAL plane. So what happens when you are not sitting directly on axis in the horizontal plane? uneven response and a reduction in volume.

But meh, do what you wish :) Better idea would be to do 2.5 way, with one of the woofers only playing midbass if you really need the extra output and reduction in distortion.

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 10:44 AM
Well first of all, I'm not very educated on the subject and have very little experience.

Second, as far as I can understand, I'll be exactly on axis for the center channel. It will be probably 3-4 feet from me, at about chest height. Off axis response is not really a concern when the speakers are all pointed at a single chair, right?

I'm not trying to build something incredible, just experimenting and hoping to upgrade what I have now. And remember I'm going from 3" full range drivers to a two-way, three driver setup. I don't like the idea of full range drivers all that much so I wanted to try this kind of setup out.

JimJ
04-29-2009, 11:49 AM
I don't like the idea of full range drivers all that much so I wanted to try this kind of setup out.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but just curious how you heard them :)

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 03:25 PM
You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but just curious how you heard them :)

My opinion on full range drivers? Well, something about it sounds crowded to me. I have no scientific data or theory to back up my opinion, but switching from the stock front/left to the bookshelf speakers I had made quite a difference in mid-range. I use ProLogic quite a bit and true surround when available and notice that most of the important sound comes from the center channel so I decided to try the same with it. I looked at some retail center channels, most of them too expensive to buy and then started looking around at some HT projects and what was available cheap from PE. MTM seemed to be the most common alignment, and it doesn't seem to complicated for a first try. So there! If you have a better suggestion for the $60 or so this project will require, let's hear it!

Fast1one
04-29-2009, 03:38 PM
Well first of all, I'm not very educated on the subject and have very little experience.

Second, as far as I can understand, I'll be exactly on axis for the center channel. It will be probably 3-4 feet from me, at about chest height. Off axis response is not really a concern when the speakers are all pointed at a single chair, right?

I'm not trying to build something incredible, just experimenting and hoping to upgrade what I have now. And remember I'm going from 3" full range drivers to a two-way, three driver setup. I don't like the idea of full range drivers all that much so I wanted to try this kind of setup out.I understand, I was just venting mostly for home theater setups where the listeners are not on axis with the center :)


My opinion on full range drivers? Well, something about it sounds crowded to me. I have no scientific data or theory to back up my opinion, but switching from the stock front/left to the bookshelf speakers I had made quite a difference in mid-range. I use ProLogic quite a bit and true surround when available and notice that most of the important sound comes from the center channel so I decided to try the same with it. I looked at some retail center channels, most of them too expensive to buy and then started looking around at some HT projects and what was available cheap from PE. MTM seemed to be the most common alignment, and it doesn't seem to complicated for a first try. So there! If you have a better suggestion for the $60 or so this project will require, let's hear it!
Crowded? Really depends on the drivers and what frquency range you were running them in. I have played with several 3 inch drivers and found that playing below ~250hz gives the sound you describe. Congested and unnatrual. My suggestion? Run a bigger driver or a better drier such as the CSS FR125 or the Daton RS100. I have experience with the latter, and its quite nice above 150hz. For a center channel, you really don't need to go lower than that.

I am a strong advocate of using full range drivers for a center channel. Moving crossovers out of the vocal range really helps, especially with female voices. At the very least, go 2 way with a full range driver and a tweeter with a very high crossover (~10khz) clear from the vocal range.

$0.02

JimJ
04-29-2009, 04:13 PM
I have played with several 3 inch drivers and found that playing below ~250hz gives the sound you describe. Congested and unnatrual.

I've heard 3's that I've loved extending down past 150Hz, but you're talking about enclosures about as big as a medium-sized 'fridge :D

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 05:02 PM
I understand, I was just venting mostly for home theater setups where the listeners are not on axis with the center :)


Crowded? Really depends on the drivers and what frquency range you were running them in. I have played with several 3 inch drivers and found that playing below ~250hz gives the sound you describe. Congested and unnatrual. My suggestion? Run a bigger driver or a better drier such as the CSS FR125 or the Daton RS100. I have experience with the latter, and its quite nice above 150hz. For a center channel, you really don't need to go lower than that.

I am a strong advocate of using full range drivers for a center channel. Moving crossovers out of the vocal range really helps, especially with female voices. At the very least, go 2 way with a full range driver and a tweeter with a very high crossover (~10khz) clear from the vocal range.

$0.02

Makes sense, I guess I'll have to look into some full range drivers in the future. Maybe I'll try that as replacement for the surrounds(not that they really need replacing) if the center works out. I'll probably be building my own fronts if this project works out, I have a little sketch. They are angled slightly to sit against the edges of the center channel and point directly me. Would those 5.25" woofers be better suited serving in the fronts? What are reasonable alternatives to my center channel if I go that way?

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 05:07 PM
I've heard 3's that I've loved extending down past 150Hz, but you're talking about enclosures about as big as a medium-sized 'fridge :D

Well these 3" drivers are in plastic sealed enclosures probably about 6"x4"x4". They aren't terrible, probably better than most computer speakers I've heard, but that's not saying a whole lot. Compared to my $100 CDT component set, they sound like garbage. They also try very hard to play low, if I could adjust the crossover, maybe they would sound better, but I figure if the Z-5500 amp wants to send midbass signals, I'll use something that can handle those frequencies a bit better.

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 06:27 PM
At the very least, go 2 way with a full range driver and a tweeter with a very high crossover (~10khz) clear from the vocal range.


What if I built my own 3-way crossover. Something like 700/7000 I think would be possible. And used one of the Tang Band drivers out of the Logitech speakers as full range, two woofers and the tweeter I bought. 4 drivers sounds like a lot to drive with 68w but I don't know. Should I ditch the woofers in the center channel altogether and just run a full range or two and tweeter?

Fast1one
04-29-2009, 09:10 PM
What if I built my own 3-way crossover. Something like 700/7000 I think would be possible. And used one of the Tang Band drivers out of the Logitech speakers as full range, two woofers and the tweeter I bought. 4 drivers sounds like a lot to drive with 68w but I don't know. Should I ditch the woofers in the center channel altogether and just run a full range or two and tweeter?700 is a bit too high, I would aim for 300hz or even 200 to stay away from the vocal range. The upper crossover would be fine in that case.

The main thing to realize is that if you are going to go with a setup with a crossover point in the vocal range, then it needs to be implemented WELL. Three way sounds like way too much work for a center channel, but thats just my opinion.

Personally, I can tell the difference in the vocal range between full range drivers and well designed two way loudspeakers. A few of them come really close to perfection, but IMO none of them really have the magic of full range in the telephone band.

Anyway, thats all my opinion. If you want to do this right with two way, I would suggest going with an existing design that has been proven and thoroughly tested. One website in particular comes to mind. If you haven't been there, I suggest you do:

http://zaphaudio.com/

There are plenty of designs, ranging from stupid cheap to several hundred dollars. One in particular comes to mind:

http://zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html

Just plop it on its side and away you go :veryhapp:

bustaplz
04-29-2009, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the links, I like that design you posted. I don't know if I'll go by that yet, but what would be the best way to add in the mid-bass region if I'm using a full range driver?

Fast1one
04-29-2009, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the links, I like that design you posted. I don't know if I'll go by that yet, but what would be the best way to add in the mid-bass region if I'm using a full range driver?Just designing a passive crossover and going "2-way" with a mid bass driver and a full range. Obviously with separate chambers in the enclosures.

Or just use a capable full range driver. Im telling you, the dayton RS100s have great bass, especially ported, and great extension all the way up to 20k. The 4ohm versions are best for ported alignments. The 8 ohm drivers have significantly different parameters, and are better suited for sealed alignments.

For 25 bucks, its hard to not try it :)

bustaplz
04-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Just designing a passive crossover and going "2-way" with a mid bass driver and a full range. Obviously with separate chambers in the enclosures.

Or just use a capable full range driver. Im telling you, the dayton RS100s have great bass, especially ported, and great extension all the way up to 20k. The 4ohm versions are best for ported alignments. The 8 ohm drivers have significantly different parameters, and are better suited for sealed alignments.

For 25 bucks, its hard to not try it :)

Hadn't thought of that. Would a RS100 really be able to compete with a tweeter?

Fast1one
04-30-2009, 12:49 AM
Hadn't thought of that. Would a RS100 really be able to compete with a tweeter?If you notice there is a peak in the response after 10khz. I have found that this helps with the off-axis response up high. When I was running them in my car I had had no desire to add a tweeter. In fact, going to run two in the kicks per side, in ported enclosures as a 1.5 way with one of them playing midbass only.

However, I will say the Fostex FF85Ks that I just got are the most detailed 3 inch full range drivers I have ever owned. Mine are moded, so I don't know how they are in stock form. But I swear this things truly rival TWEETERS costing double or triple their price. Actually they are technically really stout tweeters, as the metal dustcap is attached directly to the voice coil. Wouldn't reccomend running these below 150-200hz, so a midbass driver will definitely work well for these. So it really depends on what you want, superb quality at a loss of bass, or great quality with great bass.

I have them running from 300hz on up crossed over to dual 15 inch drivers in open baffles:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/Fast1one/0426091213.jpg

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=281

ballstothewall
04-30-2009, 02:21 PM
I love my FF85k's....

bustaplz
04-30-2009, 06:23 PM
You guys have gotten me all kinds of confused. I'm going to build the original design since the parts get here tomorrow and see how it sounds. I'm really interested in that Fostex driver but I'm not sure I could properly utilize it. Maybe I'll order a couple and try them out as surround channels. Would one of those Fostex drivers and a 6.5" woofer work well in a front channel application? Another worry I have is that those are rated at 10w rms. Each channel on the Z-5500 is rated for a bit over 60w, how much of a problem would this be?

Fast1one
04-30-2009, 06:44 PM
You guys have gotten me all kinds of confused. I'm going to build the original design since the parts get here tomorrow and see how it sounds. I'm really interested in that Fostex driver but I'm not sure I could properly utilize it. Maybe I'll order a couple and try them out as surround channels. Would one of those Fostex drivers and a 6.5" woofer work well in a front channel application? Another worry I have is that those are rated at 10w rms. Each channel on the Z-5500 is rated for a bit over 60w, how much of a problem would this be?I am powering my fostex with 50 watts per side. 10W is the mechanical limit, thermally they are taking it fine crossed over at 300hz

Sorry for confusing you so much. Just go ahead and build it and see how it sounds to YOU. If you don't like it, then you can experiment using the two woofers for midbass and a full range driver in the center.

bustaplz
04-30-2009, 09:14 PM
I am powering my fostex with 50 watts per side. 10W is the mechanical limit, thermally they are taking it fine crossed over at 300hz

Sorry for confusing you so much. Just go ahead and build it and see how it sounds to YOU. If you don't like it, then you can experiment using the two woofers for midbass and a full range driver in the center.

I guess that makes sense, lower frequencies put more strain on the driver? I don't mind being confused ever so often. I've learned quite a bit from this thread. The idea of using a single driver to reproduce vocal range makes a lot of sense, what is the normal vocal range in HZ? I'm a singer/musician so I like to consider myself somewhat educated in the nature of sound but normally I would think of vocal range in terms of octaves on a music scale, never really thought about what that translates to frequency-wise.

Also, I've been looking at building crossovers, it seems like the lower the crossover point, the more expensive and bigger the crossover gets. Is that about right?

Fast1one
04-30-2009, 10:08 PM
I guess that makes sense, lower frequencies put more strain on the driver? I don't mind being confused ever so often. I've learned quite a bit from this thread. The idea of using a single driver to reproduce vocal range makes a lot of sense, what is the normal vocal range in HZ? I'm a singer/musician so I like to consider myself somewhat educated in the nature of sound but normally I would think of vocal range in terms of octaves on a music scale, never really thought about what that translates to frequency-wise.

Also, I've been looking at building crossovers, it seems like the lower the crossover point, the more expensive and bigger the crossover gets. Is that about right?Yup, it takes much more excursion to reach the same SPL at lower frequencies. Hence, when tweeters play music you can't see them move :cool:

As far as frequencies, just start at 20hz and for every doubling of frequency is a full octave. So for the auditory limits of humans (and therefore music), the entire frequency range of 20hz-20khz consists of 10 octaves of information.

Here is a great interactive graph of different instruments with respect to frequencies. Hover over the bands for more information. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

As you can see, the lower limit of a female vocalist is around 250hz. This is generally regarded as the lower limit of the vocal range, just because with most modern music even males don't go lower than that. Everything below that is generally harmonics.

The upper limit is debated, but the core is generally below 5khz, with sibilance going up to about 10khz. Hence, 10khz is a great place to cross over a tweeter to a full range driver for extra sparkle if it needs it, especially if its a larger (above 4 inch) full range. Its commonly reffered to as a super tweeter, because it plays so high, not because its super :)

As far as crossover points, yes the lower the crossover the point the more expensive the parts get. Thats why I suggest going with a quality full range driver that can dig low.

bustaplz
05-01-2009, 11:21 AM
Yup, it takes much more excursion to reach the same SPL at lower frequencies. Hence, when tweeters play music you can't see them move :cool:

As far as frequencies, just start at 20hz and for every doubling of frequency is a full octave. So for the auditory limits of humans (and therefore music), the entire frequency range of 20hz-20khz consists of 10 octaves of information.

Here is a great interactive graph of different instruments with respect to frequencies. Hover over the bands for more information. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

As you can see, the lower limit of a female vocalist is around 250hz. This is generally regarded as the lower limit of the vocal range, just because with most modern music even males don't go lower than that. Everything below that is generally harmonics.

The upper limit is debated, but the core is generally below 5khz, with sibilance going up to about 10khz. Hence, 10khz is a great place to cross over a tweeter to a full range driver for extra sparkle if it needs it, especially if its a larger (above 4 inch) full range. Its commonly reffered to as a super tweeter, because it plays so high, not because its super :)

As far as crossover points, yes the lower the crossover the point the more expensive the parts get. Thats why I suggest going with a quality full range driver that can dig low.

Sir, that truly is an incredible link. I'm emailing it to myself as we speak, I want to check it out more when I get home from the office. I didn't realize guitar was so low on the scale compared to vocals and even a kick drum. I do think your estimate of the lower vocal range is a bit off. Looking at that chart, I can sing(although not well) below 200hz. On a good day I probably have about 2.75-3 octave range which isn't really that impressive and my voice is most comfortable around G4. There are probably millions of singers who can sing comfortably, with volume lower than myself.

I guess that graph is there to aid in mixing music? Really interesting how low the Tuba and Bassoon reach almost as low as a pipe organ. Also interesting how very little seems to reach down past 40hz. For some reason I've had a sort of aversion to sealed subwoofer enclosures, favoring low tuned ported boxes because I got it in my head that getting a flat response down in the 30hz area was important to me. I may need to build a sealed box for my car and compare a bit.

Seriously, thank you for that link! You've given me something to think about all day. I also had to google Sibilant, this lead me on a tour through a whole lot of words I never knew existed when referring to vocals. I knew about plosives, but wasn't aware the vocal-dictionary was so thick. I'm also stunned/not sure that an acoustic guitar resonates at 80hz, when I get home I'll have to fire up WINISD's signal gen and sit down with my acoustic and see what notes and harmonics fit where.

Maybe you're the person to answer this question:

I have one SR10D4 that I got for a steal after I bought the two for my Jeep sitting around waiting to be put into use. I started messing around with ported box designs, trying to find the most efficient alignment I could as I'll only be giving it 188w and it is rated for 300(it can take a bit more) and eventually stumbled upon Transmission Lines. I've found very little detailed information about TLs online but gathered enough to send me to Home Depot to buy some 12" cardboard tubing. I bought two 4' long pieces as I figured out I would need somewhere around 11' for the Fs of the driver.

Then I found some different information about what kind of diameter the line should be so I'm not sure what to believe. Here are the specs of the driver, I think it is somewhat suitable for a TL, based on some guidelines I've found but I really wouldn't know either way.

10"
Electrical Q Value -Qes: 0.39
Mechanical Q Value -Qms: 5.5
Total Speaker Q Value -Qts: 0.36
Free Air Resonance -Fs: 25.3 Hz
Equivalent Compliance -Vas: 31 liters
One-Way, Linear Excursion -Xmax: 18 mm
Efficiency -SPL 1W/1m: 85.3 dB SPL
Effective Piston Area -Sd: 310 cm^2
DC Resistance -Re: 1.8 ohm
Nominal Impedance -Znom: Dual 2/4 ohm
Thermal Power Handling -Pe: 300 W
Force Factor -Bl: 14.35

The new information I have says that I should keep the TL area to something like 1-1.25x the driver's displacement, or taper it from whatever size I need down to the Sd. Obviously tapering a big cardboard tube is not something I can do, and I can't start a project to do a folded TL right now considering time constraints, the fact that I already have a few audio projects going and the fact that I don't even know how a transmission line will sound and if it will fit my needs. The tubes were something like $28 so it's not as expensive as building an intricate(and probably large) folded TL would be but if the tube style impresses me I will probably try a more refined approach, possibly with a larger driver and a plate amp.

I'm praying you know a bit about TLs as it seems to be a club no one wants me to join and you seem to know just about everything else. The other option is to put the driver into a ported box that is just a bit over 2cubes and tune it low, the curve in WINISD for that looks pretty fantastic for a HT-style subwoofer, lots of sub-bass and a pretty flat curve. But I'm always up for some experimenting and I've built plenty of ported boxes, looking to change it up a bit.

Thanks again for the info you've given me and thanks for anything you can tell me about putting together a transmission line.

Sorry for writing a whole ****ed novel, but I'm just throwing my ideas out.

Fast1one
05-01-2009, 12:47 PM
TLs are fun but expect to do a lot of experimentation to get it right. Also I would consider doing some negative taper because it shortens the length and dampens the second resonance around the midbass region. Also, stuffing is your friend.

As far as the vocal range, yes I am aware that you can go lower. But for most genres, I have found that there isn't much vocal range below that 250hz mark. Its just a good point to crossover a small midrange/full range in general (convenient).

Yeah I love that link. I always reference it when I can. Very powerful, yet simple diagram.

bustaplz
05-01-2009, 02:06 PM
TLs are fun but expect to do a lot of experimentation to get it right. Also I would consider doing some negative taper because it shortens the length and dampens the second resonance around the midbass region. Also, stuffing is your friend.

As far as the vocal range, yes I am aware that you can go lower. But for most genres, I have found that there isn't much vocal range below that 250hz mark. Its just a good point to crossover a small midrange/full range in general (convenient).

Yeah I love that link. I always reference it when I can. Very powerful, yet simple diagram.

Well how do you think that driver would do attached to the tube I already have? It would be 12"x8' and the volume of a small box to attach it all together. I can't tell if the dimensions are right or wrong at this point!

Fast1one
05-01-2009, 03:38 PM
Well how do you think that driver would do attached to the tube I already have? It would be 12"x8' and the volume of a small box to attach it all together. I can't tell if the dimensions are right or wrong at this point!no taper:

1128ft/s = speed of sound

Lenth =8 feet

Divide by 4 (quarter wavelength)

Divide speed of sound by equivalent length, then divide by 4:

1128/8/4 = 35.25 HZ

That is not accounting for the exit or the outer boundries. Since you are going with a straight taper, I would tune above or below the FS. Don't tune at the FS because the response will be especially ragged. Then experiment with placement and stuffing. Try concentrating the stuffing near the driver or spread out. Also, keep the volume very small, cross sectional area should be near that of the tube. So make it a cube and make the dimensions roughly the diameter of the tube (obviously slightly larger for mounting).

Warning: TLs have two peaks, one at the tuning and one about an octave higher or so. This means its right around the midbass region. To fix the ragged response up top, stuffing will attenuate it. But at the cost of output. So the sub really can't be crossed over higher than around 60-80hz. Not that you should anyway...

vario
05-07-2009, 08:33 AM
Nice open baffle system on prior page :)

I needed a center so I got two vintage Infinity RS2001 for $10, refoamed and shoved together end on end to be WTTW.

bustaplz
05-23-2009, 11:43 AM
no taper:

1128ft/s = speed of sound

Lenth =8 feet

Divide by 4 (quarter wavelength)

Divide speed of sound by equivalent length, then divide by 4:

1128/8/4 = 35.25 HZ

That is not accounting for the exit or the outer boundries. Since you are going with a straight taper, I would tune above or below the FS. Don't tune at the FS because the response will be especially ragged. Then experiment with placement and stuffing. Try concentrating the stuffing near the driver or spread out. Also, keep the volume very small, cross sectional area should be near that of the tube. So make it a cube and make the dimensions roughly the diameter of the tube (obviously slightly larger for mounting).

Warning: TLs have two peaks, one at the tuning and one about an octave higher or so. This means its right around the midbass region. To fix the ragged response up top, stuffing will attenuate it. But at the cost of output. So the sub really can't be crossed over higher than around 60-80hz. Not that you should anyway...


I actually put together the TL for my spare RE SR10. I did some experimenting and ended up with it being about 7.75' long and tapered from 12.5" down to ~8" diameter at the end. It's not perfect by any means and I don't have enough polyfill to really experiment with stuffing it, but the transmission line design has convinced me. It has transient response closer to a sealed box than a ported box and massive output from 28hz-45hz compared to the ported box. A 37hz tone will move things around the room and anything from 30-45 will vibrate clothes. I'm actually very suprised by how well it works, I may try to build a quality folded line with a larger driver in the future and do it right. But for something made out of cardboard and a couple pounds of duct tape, it's really amazing. I calculated the tuning and it sits right at 36-37hz(well above Fs) and I've noticed that there is a STEEP drop from 45hz-60hz and another peak a bit above that. It's very strange and has a completely different sound than I am accustomed to, but it's also got a very natural sound down low. I really didn't think a cheap 10" sub off 188w could ever exert the amount of low end force that this does.

Unfortuneatly, the Z-5500 sub amp channel is crossed over WAY too high, but I can't do a whole lot about that. I'll probably end up with a 7.1ch receiver and a good plate amp in the future so maybe I can do some more experimenting with TL designs. I just wish it wasn't so GOD **** BIG. I have the woofer end sitting in a chair, and the open end sitting on a table in the corner of my room. It's the best placement I could find besides laying it on the floor behind my desk chair. :D

Fast1one
05-23-2009, 12:01 PM
What you are hearing is what I was describing. TLs have TWO peaks, one near the tuning and one up higher. What you are probably hearing is ripples in the upper response, hence the drop off...

Glad you are enjoying it. Yes TLs are awesome and very easy to build. A good mix between ported and sealed enclosures...

bustaplz
05-26-2009, 04:41 PM
What you are hearing is what I was describing. TLs have TWO peaks, one near the tuning and one up higher. What you are probably hearing is ripples in the upper response, hence the drop off...

Glad you are enjoying it. Yes TLs are awesome and very easy to build. A good mix between ported and sealed enclosures...

I'd really like to someday build a proper T-Line with a larger driver. I've seen pictures of folks building folded lines and they look really nice and I toyed with the idea but it would be a pretty drawn out project for me and I don't have the time for it at the moment. I'm amazed at how well this one works for being built out of cardboard and duct/electrical tape. I think if the rest of my system could reproduce mid-bass a bit better the drop off in the TL's response wouldn't be an issue at all. With a good plate amp and some better mid-bass I could LP the TL before the high peak and would have a really impressive low-end.

I can honestly say that the low end from this thing just below what I think is the tuning is BRUTAL when I give it some power, but really well controlled at the same time. I can only imagine what a properly built and engineered TL could do, especially off an amp that doesn't drive into clipping so readily as the Z-5500 does. Fast1one, do you have any T-Line builds? Maybe some direction on a good driver to use for a T-Line? I am kind of wanting to try a 15" woofer as I've never owned one, and am trying to keep my spending somewhat low right now so I'm having a hard time finding good audio projects, but I think I TL may be financially viable. :D

its_bacon12
05-27-2009, 09:32 AM
Hm. All this talk of full range drivers makes me think of one thing: beaming.

There is absolutely no way any full range driver can reproduce the same kind of dispersion patterns as a 2 or 3 way speaker, I don't care who you are it's just not physically possible. OP, that's why when you hooked up those Sony bookshelves, you noticed a less "crowded" sound. Sure, people will argue me on this with their snake oil and stuff but outside of the sweetspot for full rangers, you'll hear little to no treble. Not my kind of speaker. Even Fostex or those CSS mids or even the recently coveted W4-1337 all run into the same problem of beaming and lack of low extension. Even if you did full range, you'd need a notch filter to smooth out response as it can get quite peaky.

As far as the CC you're designing, it is far from ideal by every means and doesn't match anything else in your system but go ahead and give it a try. Like Fast1one said in page one, I'd also advise for 2.5way and have it give you a little more midbass.

ballstothewall
05-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Have you ever even listened to a quality full range setup?

its_bacon12
05-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Yes, I have. My opinion is justified as I see it, and to my ears, nothing compares to a well designed 3way set of towers.

Fast1one
05-27-2009, 10:26 PM
Have you ever even listened to a quality full range setup?Thats what I was thinking...

Simple fact is that a driver is going to beam. Whether the beaming is significant enough to affect the listening experience remains to be determined. Using smaller drivers pushes the point at which a driver starts beaming further up where the ear is less sensitive to fluctuations in frequency response. 3 inch drivers really are the best of both worlds, with a great mix of low end extension (to crossover to a subwoofer) and upper frequency response.

Yes, a driver does start beaning at a certain point. However, if the driver is 30 degrees off axis OR LESS, the beaming is less severe until a much higher point. For a 3 inch driver, usually its only the last octave which is affected. And who said the speakers had to be pointed perfectly forward? Introducing a little toe in (with reason) greatly helps the problem and makes in nearly inaudible playing test tones. With music I really can't tell the difference.

Science is a great guideline, but its music for goodness sake. Implementation is most of the battle ;) Tweak, experiment, and enjoy!

Fast1one
05-27-2009, 10:31 PM
Yes, I have. My opinion is justified as I see it, and to my ears, nothing compares to a well designed 3way set of towers.I think that is pretty bold. For a three way system to sound like a coherent point source, the listener needs to be pretty far from the speakers. Otherwise, lobing is clearly audible if you are too close. Personally, I have to be at least 3 meters away from the 3-way front stage, otherwise it drives me crazy. That doesn't really work with all rooms since the last thing you want to do is be right up against the wall. Other5 than that, I agree. 3 ways are high up on my list as well. I still prefer the simplicity of full range drivers with woofers, but I will ever go to a traditional two way again.

Different strokes for different folks...

ballstothewall
05-28-2009, 01:06 AM
Yes, I have. My opinion is justified as I see it, and to my ears, nothing compares to a well designed 3way set of towers.


Just curious, what style of full range stuff have you heard?

its_bacon12
05-28-2009, 09:11 AM
Just curious, what style of full range stuff have you heard?

The 3 way system I am referring to is seen here: http://clearwaveloudspeaker.googlepages.com/

It's the first set of speakers shown. Also, have a set of 2 ways as seen here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=361757&postcount=4

Both are done by the same guy, who lives about 20 minutes from me and does an outstanding job on his stuff.


EDIT: Woops, I answered the wrong question. I can't say for sure but one of my friends dad's was like you guys a full range driver in a t-line of some sort. He's very DIY too and follows the same kinds of designs you guys do. I do know it was a modded Fostex driver but which one I couldn't tell you.

Like I've said though, the 3 way design I heard fits my tastes and I prefer it largely over a full range driver.

Fast1one
05-28-2009, 01:52 PM
Full range drivers only really shine when in open baffle IMO. Otherwise, they do sound a bit like described. Congested, overwhelmed, etc. Of course, this can be somewhat remedied with clever box stuffing techniques, but not 100%

This is largely due to box colouration, and effects all types of speaker designs. Simply put, I will NEVER go back to a boxed speaker for home audio again. Nothing compares for the best sound. No box colouration, frequency response in room is BETTER than a point source, and it is much more natural sounding. I suggest you give it a try, whether it be full range or 2/3 way. Yes you need 3 feet from the back wall, but speakers shouldn't be placed against the wall anyway.

ballstothewall
05-28-2009, 02:09 PM
The 3 way system I am referring to is seen here: http://clearwaveloudspeaker.googlepages.com/

It's the first set of speakers shown. Also, have a set of 2 ways as seen here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=361757&postcount=4

Both are done by the same guy, who lives about 20 minutes from me and does an outstanding job on his stuff.


EDIT: Woops, I answered the wrong question. I can't say for sure but one of my friends dad's was like you guys a full range driver in a t-line of some sort. He's very DIY too and follows the same kinds of designs you guys do. I do know it was a modded Fostex driver but which one I couldn't tell you.

Like I've said though, the 3 way design I heard fits my tastes and I prefer it largely over a full range driver.

If you ever get a chance you should listen a Clark Blumenstein/Terry Cain/Jason Flanary built full range setup. That is ear ***.

I've never heard a standard 3-way setup that I liked as much as a well done standard 2-way, horns, or full range. And I have heard some very well done 3-way setups while touring the RMAF a couple years ago.

its_bacon12
05-28-2009, 05:12 PM
Full range drivers only really shine when in open baffle IMO. Otherwise, they do sound a bit like described. Congested, overwhelmed, etc. Of course, this can be somewhat remedied with clever box stuffing techniques, but not 100%

This is largely due to box colouration, and effects all types of speaker designs. Simply put, I will NEVER go back to a boxed speaker for home audio again. Nothing compares for the best sound. No box colouration, frequency response in room is BETTER than a point source, and it is much more natural sounding. I suggest you give it a try, whether it be full range or 2/3 way. Yes you need 3 feet from the back wall, but speakers shouldn't be placed against the wall anyway.

Honestly though, my needs for the speaker go outside of a listening room. I use them for HT, loud music, games, parties, whatever beckons at the time.

That's why my tastes lean me toward the speakers I enjoy, much more versatile. If I were in a quiet listening room, sitting in a fixed position, I think I would enjoy the full rangers much more. Also, the T-lines for these full rangers enhance midbass mostly because of being able to deflect the back wave. I've seen some closed ended T-lines that do that and the perceived sound is much better than a simple bass reflex, sealed, bipole or anything along those lines, outside of open baffle.

Fast1one
05-28-2009, 05:37 PM
Honestly though, my needs for the speaker go outside of a listening room. I use them for HT, loud music, games, parties, whatever beckons at the time.

That's why my tastes lean me toward the speakers I enjoy, much more versatile. If I were in a quiet listening room, sitting in a fixed position, I think I would enjoy the full rangers much more. Also, the T-lines for these full rangers enhance midbass mostly because of being able to deflect the back wave. I've seen some closed ended T-lines that do that and the perceived sound is much better than a simple bass reflex, sealed, bipole or anything along those lines, outside of open baffle.I guess I have grown older... not really into loud any more :D Yes TLs have a very nice sound to them indeed... still wont go back though. Nothing disappears into the room like my current open baffle set up.

its_bacon12
05-28-2009, 08:35 PM
Heh, well considering I'm still in college and enjoy crankin it sometime, a full range open baffle or t-line wont fit my current tastes/needs.

Regardless, it's still my opinion that a well done 3 way can sound better than a full range. I love the high end treble sparkle of ribbons and no full range driver I have ever heard can give me what ribbons do. Not to mention the dynamic bass of having 4 7" drivers :) Not to mention the amount of adjustable effects can be tweaked by switching out components in the crossover. I like hot tweeters so with these DIY speakers, I can switch out the resistor with ease and instant greater top end.

Anyways, to each his own and that's why there are different products out there.

Fast1one
05-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Heh, well considering I'm still in college and enjoy crankin it sometime, a full range open baffle or t-line wont fit my current tastes/needs.

Regardless, it's still my opinion that a well done 3 way can sound better than a full range. I love the high end treble sparkle of ribbons and no full range driver I have ever heard can give me what ribbons do. Not to mention the dynamic bass of having 4 7" drivers :) Not to mention the amount of adjustable effects can be tweaked by switching out components in the crossover. I like hot tweeters so with these DIY speakers, I can switch out the resistor with ease and instant greater top end.

Anyways, to each his own and that's why there are different products out there.
Im a college student as well. A couple years ago I decided to take charge of my hearing. I am now very responsible with the volume knob. Not that you aren't, I just can appreciate the music better when its not blaring.

My FF85ks have a lot of sparkle, better than any other full range driver I have every listened to. I would compare them to BG Neo3s in many regards. Due to their rising response in the last octave, the off axis response does not suffer. Also, the metal dustcap is attached directly to the voice coil, making it a true tweeter.

4 15s > 4 7s :D

its_bacon12
05-28-2009, 10:22 PM
Lol.. Well that's 4 7's per side and those only cover the midbass. I did see your open baffle speakers and they look good, but I'd be worried about LFE. My sub-bass comes from a Shiva-X in a 4.6 net volume box tuned to 16 hz on 500w.

I am responsible with my speakers, but I love to crank it sometimes.

Fast1one
05-28-2009, 10:45 PM
Lol.. Well that's 4 7's per side and those only cover the midbass. I did see your open baffle speakers and they look good, but I'd be worried about LFE. My sub-bass comes from a Shiva-X in a 4.6 net volume box tuned to 16 hz on 500w.

I am responsible with my speakers, but I love to crank it sometimes.For music the low end is fine. I may add a subwoofer later on for 40hz down, but I am in no rush whatsoever.

Total thread hijack :laugh:

its_bacon12
05-28-2009, 11:09 PM
Yeah, I thought of that after we started posting but atleast it wasn't trolling.