PDA

View Full Version : Missing mid-bass? Sub + Alpine SPS-600 6-3/4"



drpeeb
04-03-2009, 04:26 PM
I feel like I'm missing what I guess would be "mid-bass" with this setup:

- 2005 Nissan Titan King Cab (half rear doors)

- iPod Nano 4th Generation 16GB directly into ...

- Kenwood KAC-745 amp (yes, from the 80's, I know, getting old!)

- Alpine SPS-600 6-3/4" speakers (new) in rear doors only (no front speakers right now)

- Kicker KM10 10" marine sub (2 yrs old) in a 1.0 cubic foot sealed box I made out of 5/8" Home Depot particle board, stuffed with polyfill (sounded bad, out of control, with any size port at all)

Two Alpines are run off amp "A" set to high-pass; Sub run off amp "B" bridged, set to "mono" input & set to low-pass.

(So, all sound comes from the back (for now anyway)).

Even when I crank it way up, where the highs are loud/ crisp/ clear and the bass is thumping real good, I can pretty much carry on a conversation! It's like the missing band is almost the same as vocals. Yet, I can hear all the vocals in the music just fine. Vocals don't sound muddled; It just seems to be missing a little "liveliness" or character maybe. Very BAM: "You want highs, you got highs; You want lows, you got lows. Vocals, no problem." Life? or energy ... not really.

I don't know that this is a huge problem, but I certainly don't think it's a very flat overall response I'm hearing. I could also refer to it as "too controlled".

Any thoughts?

(Do you all think these Alpines ****? They seem to bass-distort sooner than I would have thought being set on high-pass only)

Thanks for your input ...

Sideways17
04-03-2009, 05:06 PM
I feel like I'm missing what I guess would be "mid-bass" with this setup:

- 2005 Nissan Titan King Cab (half rear doors)

- iPod Nano 4th Generation 16GB directly into ...

- Kenwood KAC-745 amp (yes, from the 80's, I know, getting old!)

- Alpine SPS-600 6-3/4" speakers (new) in rear doors only (no front speakers right now)

- Kicker KM10 10" marine sub (2 yrs old) in a 1.0 cubic foot sealed box I made out of 5/8" Home Depot particle board, stuffed with polyfill (sounded bad, out of control, with any size port at all)

Two Alpines are run off amp "A" set to high-pass; Sub run off amp "B" bridged, set to "mono" input & set to low-pass.

(So, all sound comes from the back (for now anyway)).

Even when I crank it way up, where the highs are loud/ crisp/ clear and the bass is thumping real good, I can pretty much carry on a conversation! It's like the missing band is almost the same as vocals. Yet, I can hear all the vocals in the music just fine. Vocals don't sound muddled; It just seems to be missing a little "liveliness" or character maybe. Very BAM: "You want highs, you got highs; You want lows, you got lows. Vocals, no problem." Life? or energy ... not really.

I don't know that this is a huge problem, but I certainly don't think it's a very flat overall response I'm hearing. I could also refer to it as "too controlled".

Any thoughts?

(Do you all think these Alpines ****? They seem to bass-distort sooner than I would have thought being set on high-pass only)

Thanks for your input ...

Are the rear doors in phase? If they're out of phase it would give a tinny empty sound. A good trick to test if they're in phase or not is to take a AA battery and soldier a piece of wire on both the positive and negative end. Unhook the speaker wires from the amp that run to the doors and touch the positive battery to the Positive speaker wire and the negative battery to the negative speaker wire. You will hear a pop and the woofer should PUSH OUT. Test both to ensure they are both pushing out, toward each other. If one pushes out and one pulls in, they're out of phase and you've found the problem...if its all good

....then, what is that amp crossed over at in High Pass? Turn it down to about 100hz or so if its not already. I don't know that amp...(I was born in 84' Lol)....but that's a good place to start.

Let me know.

eharri3
04-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Are the rear doors in phase? If they're out of phase it would give a tinny empty sound. A good trick to test if they're in phase or not is to take a AA battery and soldier a piece of wire on both the positive and negative end. Unhook the speaker wires from the amp that run to the doors and touch the positive battery to the Positive speaker wire and the negative battery to the negative speaker wire. You will hear a pop and the woofer should PUSH OUT. Test both to ensure they are both pushing out, toward each other. If one pushes out and one pulls in, they're out of phase and you've found the problem...if its all good

....then, what is that amp crossed over at in High Pass? Turn it down to about 100hz or so if its not already. I don't know that amp...(I was born in 84' Lol)....but that's a good place to start.

Let me know.

Midbass is when the 'impact' sounds of the music, the attack part of the bass note that transitions into lower mid range where the lowest vocals begin, comes from in front. In a properly tuned system it creates the illusion that all of the heavy bass hits and low notes that give your music impact and fullness come from in front of you rather than behind and helps 'hide' the sub frequencies where they can be heard and felt but not perceived as directional. For that you need good mids in sealed doors running off a good amp... IN FRONT of you. Good equipment behind you and stock equipment in front of you simply cannot be properly appreciated by the human ear. Is there any particular reason why you started by replacing and amplifying the least important speakers in the system?


In my opinion there is no problem whatsoever with your setup. It's doing exactly what you told it to do when you picked your components and installed everything. You can hear the sub, and get some sense of whatever's coming from the rears even though it's largely lost on you because it's behind you, then a gap, then the ****** highs and mid range from the stock fronts. It is time to think about front components that can do a convincing 70 hertz or so without screaming for mercy and finding power for them.

Sideways17
04-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Midbass is when the 'impact' sounds of the music, the attack part of the bass note that transitions into lower mid range where the lowest vocals begin, comes from in front. In a properly tuned system it creates the illusion that all of the heavy bass hits and low notes that give your music impact and fullness come from in front of you rather than behind and helps 'hide' the sub frequencies where they can be heard and felt but not perceived as directional. For that you need good mids in sealed doors running off a good amp... IN FRONT of you. Good equipment behind you and stock equipment in front of you simply cannot be properly appreciated by the human ear. Is there any particular reason why you started by replacing and amplifying the least important speakers in the system?


In my opinion there is no problem whatsoever with your setup. It's doing exactly what you told it to do when you picked your components and installed everything. You can hear the sub, and get some sense of whatever's coming from the rears even though it's largely lost on you because it's behind you, then a gap, then the ****** highs and mid range from the stock fronts. It is time to think about front components that can do a convincing 70 hertz or so without screaming for mercy and finding power for them.


I totally agree with your midbass explanation but I took his thread as something wrong with the installation (phasing or crossover point too high) And yes, It makes no sense to start with the rears. Sorry man, no disrespect.

drpeeb
04-04-2009, 12:38 AM
I totally agree with your midbass explanation but I took his thread as something wrong with the installation (phasing or crossover point too high) And yes, It makes no sense to start with the rears. Sorry man, no disrespect.

Ahhh ... I wasn't totally clear: I have no sound being produced up front at all! Not using the stock front door speakers. I'm using only the two Alpines in the rear doors and the sub. Nuttin' up front, which as you say isn't optimum, but I'm trying to modify the truck as little as possible: No replacing the HU and prefer not to change the front door/ dash speakers, either, although that plan may change. I want this to kind of be a semi-portable, easily removable system that I can reasonably remove and put in my next vehicle when that time comes: Grab my amp and sub, snip the wires (leave the door speakers), and I'm gone.

So ... I would call the sound I'm hearing very good, waaaay better than OEM, a quality, tight, clear as can be sound ... just lacking in the mid-bass "liveliness" range. Highs, lows and mids are all more than fine for me; It's that area between mids and lows that seems to be missing.

Also, regarding the crossovers (one per amp): They aren't adjustable on my dinosaur. It's 80 Hz .. Hi-pass, Off, or Low-pass. So, the sub is getting 80 and below, and the Alpines 80 and above. What do you think? Is 80 Hz too much to expect from the little 6-3/4" Alpine speakers?

(I appreciate all this info so much I've forgiven your bragging that you're the same age as my amp!!! :D ... Thank you!)

eharri3
04-04-2009, 11:55 AM
Ahhh ... I wasn't totally clear: I have no sound being produced up front at all! Not using the stock front door speakers. I'm using only the two Alpines in the rear doors and the sub. Nuttin' up front, which as you say isn't optimum, but I'm trying to modify the truck as little as possible: No replacing the HU and prefer not to change the front door/ dash speakers, either, although that plan may change. I want this to kind of be a semi-portable, easily removable system that I can reasonably remove and put in my next vehicle when that time comes: Grab my amp and sub, snip the wires (leave the door speakers), and I'm gone.

So ... I would call the sound I'm hearing very good, waaaay better than OEM, a quality, tight, clear as can be sound ... just lacking in the mid-bass "liveliness" range. Highs, lows and mids are all more than fine for me; It's that area between mids and lows that seems to be missing.

Also, regarding the crossovers (one per amp): They aren't adjustable on my dinosaur. It's 80 Hz .. Hi-pass, Off, or Low-pass. So, the sub is getting 80 and below, and the Alpines 80 and above. What do you think? Is 80 Hz too much to expect from the little 6-3/4" Alpine speakers?

(I appreciate all this info so much I've forgiven your bragging that you're the same age as my amp!!! :D ... Thank you!)

OK so again... you wanted to minimize modifications to the truck so you started with the speakers you won't be able to hear first and have absolutely no sound coming from the front of the vehicle? My only suggestion then would be to rotate the driver's seat and drive backwards.

Seriously... Im just trying to wrap my head around why you would wrip out fronts completely and leave rears but I guess to each his own. I am also very skeptical of your suggestion that having no sound coming in front of you is that great but I guess sound really and truly is subjective. Sit in a vehicle with excellent from speakers and see if you still feel that way.

Regardless...you're missing something because you replaced the wrong speakers and in my opinion trying to find some 'fix' for this is a loosing battle. Frequency response is dependent on listener and speaker positioning and aiming.

eharri3
04-04-2009, 11:57 AM
I totally agree with your midbass explanation but I took his thread as something wrong with the installation (phasing or crossover point too high) And yes, It makes no sense to start with the rears. Sorry man, no disrespect.

None taken, originally meant for the OP.

drpeeb
04-04-2009, 05:54 PM
OK so again... you wanted to minimize modifications to the truck so you started with the speakers you won't be able to hear first and have absolutely no sound coming from the front of the vehicle? My only suggestion then would be to rotate the driver's seat and drive backwards.

Seriously... Im just trying to wrap my head around why you would wrip out fronts completely and leave rears but I guess to each his own. I am also very skeptical of your suggestion that having no sound coming in front of you is that great but I guess sound really and truly is subjective. Sit in a vehicle with excellent from speakers and see if you still feel that way.

Regardless...you're missing something because you replaced the wrong speakers and in my opinion trying to find some 'fix' for this is a loosing battle. Frequency response is dependent on listener and speaker positioning and aiming.

I may still not have been clear ... I didn't take the front speakers out; I'm just not using them! Both the HU and all front speakers have been untouched. I am trying to totally avoid messing with (or even using any more) the HU & the front speakers, instead replacing only the rear door speakers with the Alpines, adding a sub and an amp to power both, and feeding an iPod directly into the amp.

So, you're right in that I'm not gonna have front sound under my current plan. Maybe I'll change my mind and break into the front door panels and replace those speakers at some point ... but, my original question still stands, so I'll re-state: With a sub and 6-3/4" full range speakers (even if they were installed up front!), would it be normal or common for a listener to maybe want to add some mid-bass? Or feel that the mid-bass range is lacking?

bass_lover1
04-04-2009, 06:28 PM
By "no front speakers right now," does that mean none are installed, or you are using the factory speakers?

If you're not using front speakers period, you answered your own question.

Why does it sound lifeless when the speakers are about 2 feet behind me, 90* off-axis, and probably muffled pretty well by the front bench.
Makes me ponder.

drpeeb
04-04-2009, 11:44 PM
By "no front speakers right now," does that mean none are installed, or you are using the factory speakers?

If you're not using front speakers period, you answered your own question.

Why does it sound lifeless when the speakers are about 2 feet behind me, 90* off-axis, and probably muffled pretty well by the front bench.
Makes me ponder.

The factory speakers are there, but are still connected to the OEM HU, which I am not using. I am only using my iPod straight into the amp, which powers the 2 Alpine 6-3/4" full range speakers and a sub.

Yes, I realize this all being behind me will always be imperfect, but I don't think speakers being behind you would cause them to sound great in all ranges but mid-bass.

eharri3
04-05-2009, 12:00 PM
I think you are misunderstanding me. You think Im just pointing out your speaker position as a separate and unrelated observation but I'm not. You're not getting direct sound, you're getting muffled sound from those speakers filtering through the front seat and random vibrations, reflections, and refractions of frequencies, some of which may make their way directly to your ears and be more clearly perceived by you than others which reflect off different surfaces before getting to you. When the speakers aren't in front of you and aimed and positioned for good response and you start trying things like this it has effects on the way the sound travels that it can be very hard to predict. Alot of midbass/midrange frequencies will be diffused, or muffled and broken up before they reach you. Upper mid range and higher frequencies tend to travel more like beams rather than waves, meaning they may bounce off multiple surfaces before they even get to you but many of them will still get there. It can change based on the size and shape of a vehicle and its interior. Your personal opinion may be that it sounds awesome or even OK but IMHO it probably doesn't. So yes, it is completely 100 percent normal for someone with your setup to be missing something, very possibly in the 80-250 hertz range where alot of sound is more likely to be diffused and muffled by everything it has to travel through to reach you.

People are answering your question and you are not except it. If my sig had more space you would make my 'car audio wall of wisdom'

drpeeb
04-05-2009, 12:18 PM
I think you are misunderstanding me. You think Im just pointing out your speaker position as a separate and unrelated observation but I'm not. You're not getting direct sound, you're getting muffled sound from those speakers filtering through the front seat and random vibrations, reflections, and refractions of frequencies, some of which may make their way directly to your ears and be more clearly perceived by you than others which reflect off different surfaces before getting to you. When the speakers aren't in front of you and aimed and positioned for good response and you start trying things like this it has effects on the way the sound travels that it can be very hard to predict. Alot of midbass/midrange frequencies will be diffused, or muffled and broken up before they reach you. Upper mid range and higher frequencies tend to travel more like beams rather than waves, meaning they may bounce off multiple surfaces before they even get to you but many of them will still get there. It can change based on the size and shape of a vehicle and its interior. Your personal opinion may be that it sounds awesome or even OK but IMHO it probably doesn't. So yes, it is completely 100 percent normal for someone with your setup to be missing something, very like in the 80-250 hertz range where alot of sound is more likely to be diffused and muffled by everything it has to travel through to reach you.

People are answering your question and you are not except it. If my sig had more space you would make my 'car audio wall of wisdom'

It might be kinda cool to get added to your wall!! "I was so dumb a smart dude added me to his wall of dummies!" My friends would get a kick out of that!!

Anyway ... I also sat myself down right in the middle of the back seat, centered right between the Alpines, so they were pointed as directly at my ears as they could reasonably be, and my original observation still stands: Missing mid-bass. Super clear highs, mids and sub-lows, just not great in the mid-bass range.

Does this change your mind?

Maybe I need a "woofer" instead of a "sub-woofer"?

Thanks again for everyone bearing with me ...

eharri3
04-05-2009, 12:33 PM
It might be kinda cool to get added to your wall!! "I was so dumb a smart dude added me to his wall of dummies!" My friends would get a kick out of that!!

Anyway ... I also sat myself down right in the middle of the back seat, centered right between the Alpines, so they were pointed as directly at my ears as they could reasonably be, and my original observation still stands: Missing mid-bass. Super clear highs, mids and sub-lows, just not great in the mid-bass range.

Does this change your mind?

Maybe I need a "woofer" instead of a "sub-woofer"?

Thanks again for everyone bearing with me ...

Then you have to go into questions like are those rear doors deadened? How much power are you putting to the speakers? Where is your mid/high crossover in relation to your sub? Having a good midbass/mid range driver is only half the battle. Tuning can make those frequencies jump out at you or seem to disappear completely.

And at the end of the day a cheap coaxial is still a cheap coaxial. Sloppy crossover and usually with cheaper cone materials and overall construction than a good end dedicated midbass/midrange. Issues of installation can affect how much midbass/lower mid range you'll get but may only take you so far in terms of what satisfies you.

Beyond that my mind is unchanged but if this is what you want to do with your sound system more power to you. IF you do get more midbasses I strongly suggest mounting them in the front seatbacks firing rearward for best effect.

Doola36
04-05-2009, 12:40 PM
Okay, my question is for the OP. How are you getting a signal to your amp? Also do you have the rockford fosgate factory system in your truck? I know in my titan the front outputs are different than my rear. I have the factory RF system which I have a factory amp to all my stock speakers.

drpeeb
04-05-2009, 12:49 PM
Okay, my question is for the OP. How are you getting a signal to your amp? Also do you have the rockford fosgate factory system in your truck? I know in my titan the front outputs are different than my rear. I have the factory RF system which I have a factory amp to all my stock speakers.

I do not have the Rockford Fosgate system, but as I said earlier that doesn't matter at all since I'm using absolutely nothing of the factory stereo. I'm running an iPod directly into my amp which directly feeds two Alpine SPS-600 6-3/4" speakers in the rear doors only, plus a 10" sub.

So, the actual Titan OEM stereo is completely immaterial in this case.

Sideways17
04-05-2009, 01:19 PM
He's using a mini plug to RCA from what I gathered....ya know I was thinking, although this isn't optimum as we have all come to terms with, but OP have you messed with the eq in your Ipod?

Gasp! Enter the WHAT THE HELL DID SIDEWAYS JUST SAY!?! Lol! Before anyone has a heartattack about my suggestion, relax and realize what's going at this point in our life's. Economy is ****. Some veterans on this forum might freakout because he doesn't have a HU or 9 layers of deadening in his doors but he's making due with what he has. Although....why don't you take those Alpines, since you already have them, and move them up front!?

amartin_72
04-05-2009, 01:20 PM
dude you need front speakers

drpeeb
04-05-2009, 01:35 PM
He's using a mini plug to RCA from what I gathered....ya know I was thinking, although this isn't optimum as we have all come to terms with, but OP have you messed with the eq in your Ipod?

Gasp! Enter the WHAT THE HELL DID SIDEWAYS JUST SAY!?! Lol! Before anyone has a heartattack about my suggestion, relax and realize what's going at this point in our life's. Economy is ****. Some veterans on this forum might freakout because he doesn't have a HU or 9 layers of deadening in his doors but he's making due with what he has. Although....why don't you take those Alpines, since you already have them, and move them up front!?

Yes, I am using a mini plug to RCA; Is there any other way to connect an iPod to an amp?

And, yes, I have messed with the iPod's EQ: I've tried every EQ single setting on it a lot, including no EQ. I've tried every EQ setting with many different songs of many different era's.

I do think I will improve things by sealing the rear doors and deadening them, but first ...

My next step: I will take my home speakers, which do have the great mid-bass I feel is missing, stick those in the back seats of the truck, and give them a listen. These have 10" woofers (may not be sub-woofers, not sure) and a 10" passive raditor. Will report back ... although you dudes are probably tired of this thread.

Ahh ... One more way to phrase my original question: Could you take just two 6-3/4" speakers, a 10" sub & an amp, free to tune them and place them however you wanted, in whatever car/ truck you wanted, and end up extremely happy with the final sound in the mid-bass area?

drpeeb
04-20-2009, 01:43 AM
Update ... Since my original question I have revised my installation, finishing it the "right way", which I never even knew about before.

Most of you probably know all about proper speaker installation, but I'll share anyway for those who might not.

First of all, the "missing mid-bass" sound I was hearing was probably due to hearing not only the front projecting side of the 6-3/4" Alpine coax's in the rear doors, but also hearing some of the back side of these speakers, due to the door cavity not being sealed off.

So ... For those Alpines, I took them back out, installed a bunch of pieces of Second Skin's "Damplifier", which is a self-adhesive deadening material that you can stick on any surfaces that are resonant, such as the thin outer skin of a car's body. Maybe even more important than that: I also pretty much sealed the door cavity so I can't hear any of the back of the speaker. HOLY COW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Night & day!

I think what I have achieved is that they doors are actually now pretty much the equivalent of being like your typical house stereo system loud-speaker. These, combined with my 10" sub, sound friggin' GREAT! Remember all the EQ's on my iPod Nano that I tried, to try to improve the sound? Some EQs helped, but none always sounded good on all songs. Now .. instead of trying to correct the sound with the EQ, I can use about 7 of the Nanao's different pre-set EQs, and they all sound awesome ... Just pick the one that suits you!

I'm not missing mid-bass anymore!! I'll also be returning to Crutchfield the Kenwood EQ I just ordered. I absolutely don't need it. I also do not at all miss not having front speakers - The sound is so overwhelmingly full that you can hardly tell it's only coming from the rear doors. Very pleased! I pull into my garage and just sit and marvel at how good, tight, punchy and full it sounds!

The need for deadening never occurred to me before, but for anyone taking their interior panels apart anyway, to replace speakers, while it's already apart you might as well stick on some deadener. I do not think you will be disappointed!

Thanks for all the responses ...