PDA

View Full Version : Front system for emerging SQ system?



buggsson
12-06-2008, 05:58 PM
So, gradually, and very slowly it appears that my system is finally taking shape, sort of anyway.

For now, it leans towards an Alpine iDA-X300 for a HU, and the Audison Bit One as processor. To these I need to add speakers, a pair of 6.5" midbasses and a pair of tweeters.

I listen to many genres, but today it's mostly metall, prog, and hard rock with something lighter now and then to vary the musical diet a bit. For example solo piano, and jazz, like Miles Davis, just so you know what the speakers are meant to be able play.

I've found that the following speaker kits fall within my preferences (without filters then I'm going active):

DLS Ultimate Iridium 6.2
DLS Ultimate Nobelium 6.2
Ground-Zero Uranium GZUC 165X (a Joker in the pack, kit lacks data heavily)
Hertz MLK165
Morel Elate 6
Radical Audio RA16RF
Seas Lotus Reference RS165F
Tec SQ6K

I have a VW Passat Variant. I will have to put them in the doors, low in the front of the doors. Was thinking of doing a plywood baffle to put them in, and then fiberglass as hell to stiffen the door panel up a bit, and providing the sealed chamber.

Now I guess, quite a few of you might ask what kind of amp I'm gonna run, and what my budget is?

My budget is skrewed anyway, due to the HU and processor that got more expensive than anticipated. As I intend to get a sub and sub-amp later, what can I say? I am planning on skimping a bit on the amp side, just to make it more affordable, not buing junk though. If I don't go for the Audison LRx 5.1K, that will power it all. I guess, if I go for two amps, each will have to cost no more than 600 USD, but then it must include shipping (to sweden, and a 30% tax hike).

Amp choice will, in all due course have to wait a bit, until descision is made for the front system, and that for a reason. The systems listed above all have very different power demands. Especially the Hertz MLK165, I've heard the most extreme amounts of power that some throws at them. The more power required, the more money required. Therefore, amp will be influenced by speaker choice.

Front system will be run at 4 ohm, no more, no less.

I've looked at 4-, 5-, and 6-channel amps. I've not been able to find a decent 4-channel amp that deliver more than 4 x 150W RMS at 4 ohm, that I can afford. Thats why I've looked at 6-channel amps, bridge two channel pairs for the pair of 6.5" and the remaining pair for the tweeters.

What more can I say?

So, any input on the above would be much appreciated.

Horsemanwill
12-06-2008, 06:37 PM
how about Image Dynamics ID XS65

headless
12-06-2008, 07:01 PM
Since you're in europe, i'd look into Rainbow also. Vanadiums or Profi's. Power Line CS might even be affordable over there; dunno what pricing is like across the pond.

shaneb
12-06-2008, 07:04 PM
I'm in the same boat. Going with Image Dynamics CTX56cs

JimJ
12-06-2008, 07:12 PM
I'd look into Hybrid Audio Legatias, no point in buying passive crossovers if you aren't using them anyway.

FoxPro5
12-06-2008, 07:52 PM
I'd look into Hybrid Audio Legatias, no point in buying passive crossovers if you aren't using them anyway.

Exactly. Why buy passives when you have everything in the BitOne?

If you prefer Lotus, then just buy the Excel equivalents and save some cash.

Skimp a lot on your amp choice to free up even more cash for your install. The 5.1k offers that nice staggered power and an all-in-one solution for an active 3-way, but you can get a couple amps that do more for less. Plus there are lots of other capable 5 channels.

4x150 watt amps certainly exist and would be best used in your system with the front channels powering the mids and the rears bridged to your sub. Then, all you'd need is an amp for your tweeters. Should be able to find something for under $1/watt (ie 50 watts for $50).

Or, as you said, a 6 ch briged down. But you'd still need a sub amp.

I'm not going to recommend a speaker for a certian music preference because I think that's a little silly. Become familiar with the objective testing and parameters of drivers and combine that with what other's suggest. Don't listen to people who give unqualified statements such as " _________ speakers are amazing" because they are idiots. ;)

buggsson
12-07-2008, 10:02 PM
I'd look into Hybrid Audio Legatias, no point in buying passive crossovers if you aren't using them anyway.

I won't buy the passive crossovers, most kits can be baught as separates. (I tried to indicate that by writing without filters, I took that to be the same thing, apparently not).

I did look up Hybrid Audio, and the Legatia 2-way looks very promising, I'm just curious about the smallish tweeter, should that small tweeter really be better than a large, "ordinary" tweeter in reproduction? It might also be a problem with listening tests in person, I might have to go to the UK for that. What about the brand itself, never heard of them before JimJs post?

I think I will skip the ID speakers, they seem to have PP-cones.

Regarding the Rainbow lines, I migth be able to afford them all, without crossovers, however, they lack data, and if not the sole retailer over here can provide data, I pass. I'm sick of having to hunt down data that aught to have been provided in the first place.

About apmps, yes, that has to wait a bit longer, and I will take FoxPro5s suggestions into consideration, I really do not want to spend more than I have to, but the Audison presented such a tempting package, but there will be other options to. What I have difficult to grasp, is how to manage to drive maybe 200W RMS for front speakers and then a sub at at least 600W RMS on the same amp, is there such an amp? I would have guessed you would preferrably run the whole front system on one amp, and then have an additional sub amp?

What do you all think about the placement of the front system, down in the door? Any chance of a decent response from down there? It is the only place though, for now, in that particular car.

buggsson
12-10-2008, 09:35 PM
I've become more and more interested in the Hybrid Audio Legatias, anyone who has any experience with them? For the heck of it, and don't ask me why, but these are the only ones I might consider without listening to them. Having something different is quite tempting, but it must be good (in the general opinion).

JimJ
12-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I've listened to the L8s, L6s, L3s, L4s, and L1s...

Some of the best I've heard :)

FoxPro5
12-10-2008, 10:25 PM
I've become more and more interested in the Hybrid Audio Legatias, anyone who has any experience with them? For the heck of it, and don't ask me why, but these are the only ones I might consider without listening to them. Having something different is quite tempting, but it must be good (in the general opinion).

They are highly capable drivers that seem to be very plug and play-able. Fairly neutral, sometimes "edgy" sound characteristic of a paper cone. I think they should be considered for anyone, baring they know what they are doing.

I've used the entire Legatia line sans the L6. Yes, using is very important. Not to sound like a ****, but it is. :)

UCF52
12-10-2008, 10:26 PM
I've become more and more interested in the Hybrid Audio Legatias, anyone who has any experience with them? For the heck of it, and don't ask me why, but these are the only ones I might consider without listening to them. Having something different is quite tempting, but it must be good (in the general opinion).

You may want to do some searching over on DIYmobileaudio.com if you are interested in HAT speaker systems. There seems to be more information about them over there.

JimJ
12-10-2008, 10:46 PM
I wish I had more time listening to the L8's and 4's in Brooksie's truck...

What's been amazing though is I've had a year of listening to the 6/3/1 set in Dave's Camry with the initial settings that were used throughout the season, after Mr. Bulwada's tuning, they're just at another level now :)

buggsson
12-11-2008, 07:59 PM
They are highly capable drivers that seem to be very plug and play-able. Fairly neutral, sometimes "edgy" sound characteristic of a paper cone. I think they should be considered for anyone, baring they know what they are doing.

I've used the entire Legatia line sans the L6. Yes, using is very important. Not to sound like a ****, but it is. :)

What do you mean by "baring they know what they are doing"? I mean, I know what you mean in a way, but would that be more of a topic with L6/L1 than with any of the other component systems mentioned in my first post, that's what I would like to know.

FoxPro5
12-11-2008, 09:55 PM
What do you mean by "baring they know what they are doing"? I mean, I know what you mean in a way, but would that be more of a topic with L6/L1 than with any of the other component systems mentioned in my first post, that's what I would like to know.

I mean simply that a speaker is only as good as how it's installed and tuned properly in the car. Jim J's post above speaks volumes.

I've only personally used the Lotus and Legatia speakers you've mentioned. I don't make comments on how things sound if I haven't used them. Any and all could sound fantastic and all of them certainly do have the potential to sound terrible. That's what I mean by "capabile." Again, become familiar with the objective testing done on those drivers (Klippel if you can find them on diymobileaudio.com, T/S parameters, etc) and work from there. Ignore the subjective stuff like "those speakers sound like ***" or "I heard them and they were amazing" as neither of which are really useful to you at all, IMHO.

Megalomaniac
12-12-2008, 10:37 AM
I really enjoyed the Legatia's tweeters. However I have not heard a Hybrid Audio setup that contained their mids that I really fell in love with YET. It didnt hit all my sweet spots. Felt a little lifeless. The vehicle(Shelby Mustang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BHj2x3k35c)) was even tuned by Scott Buwalda(owner of Hybrid Audio). Now I am not going to blame the speakers themselves. The owner of the car was very limited in his positioning of the speakers, he refused to cut up the car for better placement.

now on the other hand, the best mids, in my opinion, I have heard to date on numerous occasions has to be the Scanspeak Revelators (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYWy57LTMU) and the Genesis version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAG2Dd_9W0) of the Revelators. Its very hard to describe the way things sound, best word I could describe the Revs is its full of life and energy.

I also believe each company and where they from have a different perspective on the ways things sound. The Focal(French) sound very different from the Hertz(Italian). The Hertz tend to be on the warmer and smooth side of sounds where as the Focal's are more articulate and edgy.

buggson, Are you able to demo any of the sets you listed? Best thing to do is listen for yourself and find the set that makes you smile when you listen right away :)

buggsson
12-16-2008, 06:17 PM
I really enjoyed the Legatia's tweeters. However I have not heard a Hybrid Audio setup that contained their mids that I really fell in love with YET. It didnt hit all my sweet spots. Felt a little lifeless. The vehicle(Shelby Mustang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BHj2x3k35c)) was even tuned by Scott Buwalda(owner of Hybrid Audio). Now I am not going to blame the speakers themselves. The owner of the car was very limited in his positioning of the speakers, he refused to cut up the car for better placement.

now on the other hand, the best mids, in my opinion, I have heard to date on numerous occasions has to be the Scanspeak Revelators (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYWy57LTMU) and the Genesis version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAG2Dd_9W0) of the Revelators. Its very hard to describe the way things sound, best word I could describe the Revs is its full of life and energy.

buggson, Are you able to demo any of the sets you listed? Best thing to do is listen for yourself and find the set that makes you smile when you listen right away :)

FoxPro5, I am aware of the fact that installation is paramount, and I fear I will likely fail on this one, as it will be my first install, but I got the impression there was something especially difficult with installation of the Legatia, apparently not, but I have to tell that I've for now, put them on hold. When customs and taxes are paid, they would be too expensive. Maybe in the future..............

Magalomaniac, I will check up on the Scanspeaks again, and I was given an offer of the Genesis, but it was said they were beefed up SEAS speakers if I remember correctly, anyway, I'll check them up again. The Genesis might be on the expensive side. And yes, I will be able to listen to them all, but it will involve rather extensive travelling, I've at least about 400 km to the nearest Morel dealer. I hope to be able to start listening sessions during the christmas holidays.

FoxPro5
12-16-2008, 06:42 PM
Are you on Talkaudio.uk? Maybe hook up with some of those guys and listen to their cars? Genesis is huge on that forum. And I'd suspect DLS, Dynaudio, and SEAS is pretty easy to come buy if you're from Sweden.

buggsson
12-17-2008, 10:56 AM
Are you on Talkaudio.uk? Maybe hook up with some of those guys and listen to their cars? Genesis is huge on that forum. And I'd suspect DLS, Dynaudio, and SEAS is pretty easy to come buy if you're from Sweden.

No, I'm not on Talkaudio.uk, and I guess that would be a very long a trip. DLS and SEAS I have in the vicinity, but Dynaudio is not very common here, at least not what I have noticed. I've checked up on the Scan-Speak Revelators, but that seem to be a quite expensive solution, and I guess it would be difficult to find a car to listen in, and are they really made for car environments? Nothing in the product sheets about that. They do look nice though. I think I'll stick to what I have in my list in the first post, if nothing very interesting, that is affordable turns up.

khanhfat
12-17-2008, 02:05 PM
I'd say focal and Rainbow will fit into heavy metal category best.

FoxPro5
12-17-2008, 04:11 PM
are they really made for car environments? Nothing in the product sheets about that.

No, the are not made for a car. What does that have to do with anything, though? It's just a driver. It still has to be optimized and used intelligently. Seeing as though they ideally prefer a sealed environment, I see no issue at all. I use SS drivers in my car and so do many hobbyists and competitors.

Also, Scan has made plenty of car-audio specific drivers which are really not any different then their own; they just have a different sticker on them.

But, I do have to warn you, I don't read too many product sheets. Oddly enough, I seem to be fairly satisfied in life without them most of the time.

buggsson
12-19-2008, 05:59 PM
No, the are not made for a car. What does that have to do with anything, though? It's just a driver. It still has to be optimized and used intelligently. Seeing as though they ideally prefer a sealed environment, I see no issue at all. I use SS drivers in my car and so do many hobbyists and competitors.

Also, Scan has made plenty of car-audio specific drivers which are really not any different then their own; they just have a different sticker on them.

But, I do have to warn you, I don't read too many product sheets. Oddly enough, I seem to be fairly satisfied in life without them most of the time.

I thought that inside a car door would be a quite hostile environment for a driver, especially if it has an untreated paper cone, apparently not.

I guess that, eventually I might also come to a point where I don't feel like I "need" to read spec sheets to get a feeling for what I will get in the box, but for now, I feel more comfortable following a few old and tested myths in car audio. I'm more of a braces AND belt guy, I'm sure to cut my corners later on.

I'll be starting my listening sessions any day now.

My speakers need to be all-rounders rather then genre specific then I listen all kinds of music, but they surely must be more than satisfactory for metal and stuff.