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atlninja82
11-16-2008, 12:38 AM
so ive been looking at peoples box builds lately and i have seen people using screws and people just using glue. so should i use screws if im already using wood glue? isnt the glue stronger than the wood itself? any comments, thoughts, or opinions are appreciated.

-eric

Twisted_0912
11-16-2008, 12:39 AM
the screws hold the material in place until the glue dries

mlstrass
11-16-2008, 12:40 AM
been covered a 100 times. Screws hold the box together while the glue dries. Normally used in place of clamps...

IDSkoT
11-16-2008, 12:41 AM
been covered a 100 times. Screws hold the box together while the glue dries. Normally used in place of clamps...

x2

Some people will clamp the box down after they glue it, then put in screws (Usually about 6" apart from each other.) Once they screw it in, they un-clamp and go to the next part.

BushJ311
11-16-2008, 12:51 AM
I use glue and screws + clamps. But you do not need screws. I also did not keep the clamps on long

atlninja82
11-16-2008, 12:51 AM
o sorry. i wasnt aware of the topic being covered. i would search but i didnt know what to search for. but since i have clamps cant i just clamp it down and let it dry and move on like that instead of using screws?

IDSkoT
11-16-2008, 12:54 AM
o sorry. i wasnt aware of the topic being covered. i would search but i didnt know what to search for. but since i have clamps cant i just clamp it down and let it dry and move on like that instead of using screws?

Yeah, of course. People do it as a precaution. Because, it actually takes 24 hours for the glue to cure 100%. I keep my clamps on for 2-6 hours per bind to make sure the bond is good.
But let's put it in retrospect...
If you use screws, there will be pressure on that joint, the same as if clamps were on, all the time. Even after the glue cures.

But, you can use clamps and only clamps. I did that on my last build. The only thing is, I took my time. So it ended up taking me 2 or 3 days to construct a box with 6 sides. :laugh:

atlninja82
11-16-2008, 01:05 AM
gotchya. i think ill use some screws then. thanks a lot. and sorry for asking the same question a million other people did evidently .

-eric

jdawg
11-16-2008, 01:51 AM
o sorry. i wasnt aware of the topic being covered. i would search but i didnt know what to search for. but since i have clamps cant i just clamp it down and let it dry and move on like that instead of using screws?

orly? What about the thread you made about it. :rolleyes:

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362296

Pioneer~Saturn
11-16-2008, 03:26 AM
Yea, using screws allows you to keep moving with the project instead of waiting for the glue to cure with the pieces in clamps...the screws actually would also provide some support by going into the material further than the glue would, just a thought. If I have the time I simply clamp, makes a baller-smooth finish with no worries about screws+screw holes to cover up..

Rashaddd
11-16-2008, 04:40 AM
the face of MDF can relatively easily be stripped and peel off. The glue won't fail, but it can be like gluing your two fingers together, and then when you pull them apart, the glue doesn't unstick, so instead a chunk of skin rips off one finger.

granted its unlikely to actually happen in an enclosure, but I think it is hard to argue against the fact that you're better off putting in screws every 6-8"

kovemaster559
11-16-2008, 05:09 AM
just use a router , rabbiting bit , glue and tats it . makes it nice ohhh and clamps lots of clamps

CadillacMatt
11-16-2008, 02:05 PM
Smaller enclosures should be OK without screws but for something like my 75lb box we used brad nails & screws in conjunction with plenty of wood glue :)

Might be overkill but better to be safe then sorry.

ngsm13
11-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Pneumatic nailer + glue = win.

nG

wasted ink
11-16-2008, 07:08 PM
the face of MDF can relatively easily be stripped and peel off. The glue won't fail, but it can be like gluing your two fingers together, and then when you pull them apart, the glue doesn't unstick, so instead a chunk of skin rips off one finger.

granted its unlikely to actually happen in an enclosure, but I think it is hard to argue against the fact that you're better off putting in screws every 6-8"

as long as the joint is clamped while the glue fully cures, theres no possibiltity of that happening. i know exactly where youre coming from though. if somehting is going to break (and this has been proven) the wood will break before the joint (and not the paper surface ripping away)


just use a router , rabbiting bit , glue and tats it . makes it nice ohhh and clamps lots of clamps

amen homes


Smaller enclosures should be OK without screws but for something like my 75lb box we used brad nails & screws in conjunction with plenty of wood glue :)

Might be overkill but better to be safe then sorry.

i used nothing but glue on my 5.5 cube enclosure for my MT18. and although using alot of screws and nails may seem like a good idea, ("the more, the better" theory) if you use fasteners closer then 6 inches or so from each other, they become stress risers in the joint. predrilling (pilot holes) will help, but not solve the problem.

trust me when i say, gluing and clamping is the way to go. if you must use screws, space them evenly every 8" or so, and use pilot holes.

wasted ink
11-16-2008, 07:10 PM
orly? What about the thread you made about it. :rolleyes:

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362296

i was thinking the same exact thing when i saw this thread.. but it was late, and i thought i might have been wrong.

Rashaddd
11-16-2008, 09:48 PM
as long as the joint is clamped while the glue fully cures, theres no possibiltity of that happening. i know exactly where youre coming from though. if somehting is going to break (and this has been proven) the wood will break before the joint (and not the paper surface ripping away)


Idk, maybe you get different MDF where you're from than I get, but I'd have to disagree. Go take two pieces of wood, make a joint, let it cure for a couple days, stand on it with it like this: V, so that there is outward pressure on the joint. It will break (assuming its big enough to give you leverage), and it will most likely rip a layer off of the mdf on one or both sides of the joint

Now, in an actual box, one thing that makes it much more solid is the structural support of the other pieces of the box. when you've got wood connected with strong joints like this on all edges, the complete product is very sturdy, but the individal joints alone are not as strong as people seem to think, due to the ratio of the size of the boards to the surface area of the joints

wasted ink
11-16-2008, 10:00 PM
Idk, maybe you get different MDF where you're from than I get, but I'd have to disagree. Go take two pieces of wood, make a joint, let it cure for a couple days, stand on it with it like this: V, so that there is outward pressure on the joint. It will break (assuming its big enough to give you leverage), and it will most likely rip a layer off of the mdf on one or both sides of the joint

Now, in an actual box, one thing that makes it much more solid is the structural support of the other pieces of the box. when you've got wood connected with strong joints like this on all edges, the complete product is very sturdy, but the individal joints alone are not as strong as people seem to think, due to the ratio of the size of the boards to the surface area of the joints

youre absolutely right, and i agree.. when i posted that earlier, i meant in the application of a completed box. i should have clarified, just a misunderstanding.

everything you said is correct and very accurate... and im actually impressed someone else around here takes the time to understand things from this point of view..

BobbyDD
11-16-2008, 10:20 PM
Idk, maybe you get different MDF where you're from than I get, but I'd have to disagree. Go take two pieces of wood, make a joint, let it cure for a couple days, stand on it with it like this: V, so that there is outward pressure on the joint. It will break (assuming its big enough to give you leverage), and it will most likely rip a layer off of the mdf on one or both sides of the joint
Now, in an actual box, one thing that makes it much more solid is the structural support of the other pieces of the box. when you've got wood connected with strong joints like this on all edges, the complete product is very sturdy, but the individal joints alone are not as strong as people seem to think, due to the ratio of the size of the boards to the surface area of the joints

If you do that it's going to break whether it has screws and/or nails in it or not.

wasted ink
11-16-2008, 10:29 PM
If you do that it's going to break whether it has screws and/or nails in it or not.

youre right, but he wasnt trying to prove that screws would hold that load. he was showing the way a glued joint will break.

Rashaddd
11-16-2008, 10:32 PM
If you do that it's going to break whether it has screws and/or nails in it or not.

Obviously. But don't you think having a screw extend 2 inches into the joint will help it last a little longer?

My main point is that I think we've sort of over-stated the reality of what a properly glued joint will sustain. We give the impression that you could do what I described, and the joint wouldn't actually come apart, but one of the boards would snap in half, which is just unrealistic.

Personally I don't know the details and facts about the added stress that many claim the screws can add in the wood, so I cannot state with certainty that it is the best thing to do.

In all reality though, the majority of boxes would be able to hold up with just screw and silicone for longer than most people seem to keep a single box/setup in their car. Still, obviously it's a better idea to go ahead and take the time to glue the box properly, I am not arguing against that.

BobbyDD
11-17-2008, 12:04 AM
Obviously. But don't you think having a screw extend 2 inches into the joint will help it last a little longer?

My main point is that I think we've sort of over-stated the reality of what a properly glued joint will sustain. We give the impression that you could do what I described, and the joint wouldn't actually come apart, but one of the boards would snap in half, which is just unrealistic.

Personally I don't know the details and facts about the added stress that many claim the screws can add in the wood, so I cannot state with certainty that it is the best thing to do.

In all reality though, the majority of boxes would be able to hold up with just screw and silicone for longer than most people seem to keep a single box/setup in their car. Still, obviously it's a better idea to go ahead and take the time to glue the box properly, I am not arguing against that.


It does seem logical that it would be a little stronger with screws too.