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Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:11 PM
I just did a complete system in my 02 Bonneville SSEi. I More or less moved my system from my 2DR Tahoe when I sold it, but my speakers were messed up so I warrentied them for Infinity Kappas.

When I bought the car, it had a Pioneer deck and Reference components (6.5") front and 6X9s rear. I yanked the deck and front speakers, wired 14awg to the doors from my 4 channel and wired up the power to my amps (Memphis 1000d for my two Image Dynamics IDQ10s, and a Diamond 400.4 for the speakers). I painstakingly installed the speakers and crossovers (those enormous tweeters are a PITA). I dont relly believe in rear speakers, so I just have them disconnected.

SO heres my problem. It sounds like complete and utter garbage. The mids are harsh, the lower mids are absent and the upper highs (just before the crossover) lack detail and can be harsh.

It sounds like baffle diffraction and a horn effect. In my car, the speakers mount to the interior panel, so it has a lame baffle to begin with, and theyre also recessed an inch and a half from the outside of the panel. Both are very bad for sound, so obvoiusly I want to address both issues. However, the refereces didn't sound this bad. What gives?

I'm bainstorming possible solutions to the problem. First, I want to build a fiberglass enclosure onto the door panel to give the driver an airspace of its own, stiffen the door panel and add weight to the baffle. The problem there is that I'd have to make it removeable. The driver is rear mount.

I dynamatted the doorskin, which made an aready very quiet car eirily silent. I think that doing the panel and door structure would be of help as well.

I still need to tune the filters on the amps, but its had when it sounds so bad.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Any help here is much appreciated.

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 09:13 PM
it's doesn't have anything to do with deadening. It sounds like you need a better amp or more power to the speakers if you are underpowering them.

Mike465
11-11-2008, 09:13 PM
Well I hate to say it man but Kappas are not the best of speakers. There is a reason they are so cheap.

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 09:15 PM
also, kappas are considered harsh by many people. It's like the alpine type s speakers, they can get loud but are very harsh to the point you think your ears are going to bleed.

you may want to upgrade to perfects if you like kappa's. I heard people on here say they are really good

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:30 PM
Hmm, I would like to think they'd sound better than they do. I had Diamond D3's in my 'Hoe and they sounded way better, and the references that came in the car were not this bad.

They don't just sound crappy loud, so I cant see 130 wpc being too little when I'm only using a watt or two.

I wish I could have gotten something else, but I got the busted diamonds at Ultimate and thier pitiful line tops out at the Kappas.

What I'd like to do is borrow a laptop and run some sweeps of REW to see just how bad the response is.

Any other ideas, though? Like I said, this doesn't sound like "I just don't like this speaker" bad, it's like "What the hell is wrong" bad. Not quite "Tweeter and woofer switched" bad, but it sounds like hell. What I'm doing is bringing it to the head installer at ultimate and seeing what he thinks, as I'm sure hes heard a lot more kappas than I have.

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 09:34 PM
if you ever overpowered them too much then it may have damaged the speaker pretty bad. If it's not that then you may be overpowering them right now.

How many rms are you sending them now?

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:39 PM
I've never cranked on them, they've sounded terrible since they went in. I just finished it on Sunday night. I have my 4X65 bridged, but too much power will only hurt you if you use it. I ran it normal as well, and it was the same story, just less sencitive to volume changes.

efm80
11-11-2008, 09:41 PM
also, kappas are considered harsh by many people. It's like the alpine type s speakers, they can get loud but are very harsh to the point you think your ears are going to bleed.

you may want to upgrade to perfects if you like kappa's. I heard people on here say they are really good

who exactly on here says the Perfects are good? it seems to me everyone is constantly bashing them, including myself who owns a pair.

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:43 PM
So is it the general consesnsus that the speakers are THAT bad? Like, 1953 transistor radio bad? I've heard factory systems in geo prizms sound better than this...

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 09:43 PM
I've never cranked on them, they've sounded terrible since they went in. I just finished it on Sunday night. I have my 4X65 bridged, but too much power will only hurt you if you use it. I ran it normal as well, and it was the same story, just less sencitive to volume changes.

depends on the speakers, some like a lot more than rated power and some don't. it can hurt your speakers.

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 09:46 PM
who exactly on here says the Perfects are good? it seems to me everyone is constantly bashing them, including myself who owns a pair.

i'm not saying there great, i've never owned a pair. But alot of people say they are good budget speakers.

I think it is your settings OP, try adjusting the EQ curve and lowering midrange or lows in the speakers a little. Sometimes too much midrange can distort speakers if they aren't great speakers, and the kappas are average at best.

williambrea
11-11-2008, 09:52 PM
i have kappas and for the money you cant beat em. They get loud, but they are a little harsh.
Somthing must be wrong if yours sound like garbage
try messing with your filters on your amp. Mine sounded like garbo and i messed with the settings and they sound good now! did it sound like it was only lower freq, not loud, and really mumbly sounding?

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:53 PM
depends on the speakers, some like a lot more than rated power and some don't. it can hurt your speakers.
Point number one: They sounded bad from the first time I fired them up.
Point number two: I've never cranked them up, I'd guess I've only ever hit them with 5 or so watts (I assume you know how the power:spl curve looks)
Point number three:How would having a lot of power available damage a speaker if it is not used?
Point number four: The speakers are not blown, they don't clip, theres no mechanical damage.

Of course I don't mean to be a ********, I just don't see the link. You input is appreciated, but I'n not sure were on the same page. They should sound the same whether theyre on a 15 watt or 1000 watt amp if you're only using a watt or two to drive them to 80 or so dB. As long as the amp works, that is. I checked that as well. I hooked them up to the reciever in my garage stereo to test the wiring quickly and they sounded bad then.

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 09:56 PM
i have kappas and for the money you cant beat em. They get loud, but they are a little harsh.
Somthing must be wrong if yours sound like garbage
try messing with your filters on your amp. Mine sounded like garbo and i messed with the settings and they sound good now! did it sound like it was only lower freq, not loud, and really mumbly sounding?

I won't argue, they do respond to power, and I havent heard any mechanical disress (when driven full range during testing), but I'm a fan of a nice, warm midrange and these make me nausious.

Doola36
11-11-2008, 10:00 PM
I have a pair of Kappa 6.5s running off of a sundown 100.4. To me they sound good and can be loud but htye do lack the midbass like others have said. But I didn't want them for the midbass. i wanted them for how clear and loud they can get. On the other hand I do have a set of cdt cl-62s and they sound great off of the sundown amp. SO maybe play around with your setting or something.

WhoSayWho?
11-11-2008, 10:01 PM
Just for clarification, when you say "upper highs" do you mean the highest frequencies of the mids? I thought that was what you meant because you said just before the crossover.

endofdays89
11-11-2008, 10:02 PM
like i said, mess with your mids and lows and see if you can balance it somehow.

williambrea
11-11-2008, 10:04 PM
I have a pair of Kappa 6.5s running off of a sundown 100.4. To me they sound good and can be loud but htye do lack the midbass like others have said. But I didn't want them for the midbass. i wanted them for how clear and loud they can get. On the other hand I do have a set of cdt cl-62s and they sound great off of the sundown amp. SO maybe play around with your setting or something.

X2 they are great for playing vocals and everything, they can cut through my DD bass and allow me to hear vocals. But the midbass is a little weak, but i only have 4inch kappas. But midbass dosent matter when your slammin gucci :D

Yourgrandma
11-11-2008, 10:10 PM
Just for clarification, when you say "upper highs" do you mean the highest frequencies of the mids? I thought that was what you meant because you said just before the crossover.

I meant upper mids, just before the tweeters take over. They just aren't articulate. I suppose a little reading would have been good prior to taking the time to put these things in. I'm still going to try to shore up the door panels and get the filters set better, but from what I'm hearing, Kappas arent a very good sounding model. Too bad Ultimate *****, I would like to keep my $250 credit towards speakers rather than trying to sell the kappas for $6.50 on craigs list.

WhoSayWho?
11-11-2008, 11:31 PM
Still, I can't imagine them typically sounding as bad as your's sound. Most of the critisicism I hear is about the tweets being harsh.

I just wonder if this does not have more to do with the way they are mounted, which you indicated was less than ideal.

BigMoneyTT
11-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I have a set of Kappa 6x8's and I actually think they sound great... but I only paid $55 for the pair so I guess my frame of reference is a little different. I have used them in a number of different configurations, from just head unit power, to a cheap Volfenhag amp, and 300 watts a piece off a big Kicker stereo amp, and now I'm running them active off a 4 channel putting out 200 watts rms to each tweeter and each mid. They have taken the power great, and I tend to keep them cranked. I will agree that there is definitely room for improvement on the midbass.

eykang
11-11-2008, 11:48 PM
post some pics of how the frontstage is installed.

what speakers have you used in the past before? maybe you are just used to better sounding speakers. i've heard these and did not like them as well.

LaserRed38
11-12-2008, 03:32 AM
Honestly, I'm impressed that you are trying to stick with the set-up you have and see if you can get them to sound better, even IF they are Infinity speakers. I've never been a fan of any of their speaker lines, that I have heard...

But I have to hand it to you for trying out different things, rather than just swapping out equipment right off the bat.

eykang
11-12-2008, 03:43 AM
After reading your first post again I think the main problem is how the mids are mounted. having the mid mounted to the inner door panel is probably making things sound terrible. is there no way you can just create an mdf spacer and bolt it into the steel in the door? if not try adding lots of clay and trying to make the door panel heavier. i'm sure that thing is vibrating like crazy and making all sorts of strange things happen.

jmanpc
11-12-2008, 04:00 AM
Your Kappas sound horrible? Maybe because that's just what they do. Sound horrible. :fyi:

Yourgrandma
11-12-2008, 08:08 PM
post some pics of how the frontstage is installed.

what speakers have you used in the past before? maybe you are just used to better sounding speakers. i've heard these and did not like them as well.

Yes, I am spoiled. However my biggest philosophy with audoio has always been that if the speakers are surrounded by a crappy sounding environment (in this case in a far less than ideal enclosure), they'll never perform up to their potential. My home system may not be the most expensive, but I think I make the most of my Definitive PT400s wit proper placement, room treatments and attention to setup. I also enjoy listening to rather high end setups. B&W Nautalis 802d is my favorite speaker to listen to in case you're interested. I've also auditioned Wilson MAXX ans WATT/PUPPY's, and most of the top models of the more well known brands (Martin Logan Summits, Klipchorns, ect)

So perhaps I am jaded, so what should the next step be? Should I rip them out and give them to charity or should I try to make the most of them for the time being. At least if I get these to sound decent, when I get respectable speakers they'll sound much better.

Are there any threads about people solving door panel problems? I dont think I'll be able to actually mount them to the doors, but I can at least move the drivers closer to the grill, eliminating the horn effect of the recess. That would also give me room to isolate the driver with a fiberglass rear baffle. This would also stiffen and add weight to the door panel. The last resort would be kick panels. I doubt theres enough room for them to fit nicely, but it's probably doable.

Basically, I want to give these piles as best a chance as theyre ever going to get.

I'm not sure if any of my ideas have been tried, but I'd like to see what others have done.

Thanks for the input...

Mynameismcgyver
11-12-2008, 09:47 PM
Just going to throw this out there....Are the speakers in correct phase? I had a set of Inifinity Reference's along time ago. Mixed up the wiring when I set up the tweeters and IIRC having the same problem you were.

Check then double check! Best principle invented!

cichlid_baby
11-12-2008, 10:15 PM
I meant upper mids, just before the tweeters take over. They just aren't articulate. I suppose a little reading would have been good prior to taking the time to put these things in. I'm still going to try to shore up the door panels and get the filters set better, but from what I'm hearing, Kappas arent a very good sounding model. Too bad Ultimate *****, I would like to keep my $250 credit towards speakers rather than trying to sell the kappas for $6.50 on craigs list.



Man.. I was just eyeing a complete front and rear set of Kappas for my Tahoe from Ultimate Electronics myself. I noticed the larger tweets sounded very bright, almost harsh in the soundroom but I thought that was normal and expected in a high end set of tweeters.

I did notice the lack of midrange punch from the mid bass drivers but thought that it could be compensated with using three 10s in a sealed box.

Am I off on this kind of thinking?

Should I stay away from these Kappas, and go for the Type R's in all corners??

Yourgrandma
11-12-2008, 10:36 PM
I listened to the r's at ultimate. They were hooked up out of phase, but after I had them fix that, they still sounded pretty lame. I think most of the big name car audio stuff is geared towards today's ever increasing crop of deaf iPod kids that couldnt tell an accurate speaker from a car alarm siren.

Bright? Yes, very. Sensitive? Yep, hook them up to your 1000wpc amp and enjoy the blood stains on your shoulders.

I get the impression that one must stay far away from the national brands if they want anything that resembles good sound. I havent shopped much for car speakers, but you can bet I havent been impressed.

So when my efforts to make these krappas sound good fail, what should I be looking at? Are ther any brands that are well known in mobile audio as being accurate?

Yourgrandma
11-12-2008, 10:38 PM
Just going to throw this out there....Are the speakers in correct phase? I had a set of Inifinity Reference's along time ago. Mixed up the wiring when I set up the tweeters and IIRC having the same problem you were.

Check then double check! Best principle invented!



Theyre right. Out of phase is an easy one to hear, this isn't so simple. They also sound like crap individually, phase issues would only be present with both running.

da box king
11-12-2008, 10:39 PM
I use to run kappas in installs, they can handle power, but are harsh

since then I've gone with my ID's and will never go back

cichlid_baby
11-12-2008, 10:52 PM
Well.. back in the day... I use to have some Boston Acoustics and MB Quarts.. I remember them sounding really nice but they were very pricey.. and these days with a family and all.. and the economy the way it is.. I just can't justify spending $299-$399 for a set of components.

Yourgrandma
11-12-2008, 11:00 PM
I use to run kappas in installs, they can handle power, but are harsh

since then I've gone with my ID's and will never go back

I like my IDQ10 subs. They seem like a no-bs company. My subs look like cheap stuff, but they sound great. I have been thinking about them for the components. I notice thy make horn setups even. Thats pretty cool.

Saint211
11-12-2008, 11:19 PM
Every speaker in my car is infinity kappa. I get awesome deals on their speakers and they are well suited for my purposes... cutting through the bass :)

Right now I have 2 6x8's in each front door with 125 wrms to each speaker. I have room to fit one more 6x8 in each door, which I will probably take advantage of when I put my second nightshade in.

Midbass = lacking, but I notice it less with the subs in because I cross my subs over a little higher than most people.

Midrange = I dont really see how it "lacks" considering I can feel the midrange. The midrange, atleast in my setup, is fairly pronounced. Maybe the lower midrange, like near midbass... is lacking.

Highs = admittedly bright compared to other speakers.. the attenuation button helps a little bit. While I do enjoy a warmer tweeter, the tweeters keeps the high frequencies well pronounced even with the bass, and now iinstead of getting horns, it leaves me 2 channels free for the lacking midbass problem.


Its kinda loud, and my ears havent bled once yet..... sounds a little exagerrated. Even if I have 6 or 8 kappas in my car, it wont be unbearable... considering it might JUST break even with the lows.

Clarity wise, even though I have coaxials, my front stage sounds very clear and detailed. Im sure some of the more epensive comp sets owuld sound much sicker but honestly Im not about SQ in the least. I want everything to be super loud. period



I dont see how they could possibly sound as bas as you make them out to be.

+

cichlid_baby
11-12-2008, 11:44 PM
So when my efforts to make these krappas sound good fail, what should I be looking at? Are ther any brands that are well known in mobile audio as being accurate?



Well for about $250-$275 online... you could get a set of Boston Pro 60's.. which most will tell you are some very good sounding speakers..

I.. on the other hand was trying to stay out of that price range.. therefore leaned to the Kappas but now... I am wavering.

LaserRed38
11-12-2008, 11:49 PM
Why would one install more than one...6x8...in each door?

z31joe
11-12-2008, 11:50 PM
which kappa are these??
Maybe they need to "break in" some more. Move the tweeters to another location and mount them off axis. EQ down at around 1k-6khz. Also try swapping out the kappa tweeters with the reference tweeters.
If nothing else works, sell them and get something else.

Yourgrandma
11-13-2008, 07:15 AM
WOW, multiple 6X8's in the doors...

Look, I won't bash on anyone else's tastes, but it's just that, personal taste. I personally would like to preserve as much of my hearing as possible. I prefer a nice, smooth, accurate sound. If you've ever hear any of the home speakers I mentioned, you'll know what I mean.

They're 6.5" comps, btw. But break in is one of those gray areas that has never really been proven to chand sound quality. In acuality, youre just getting used to how they sound. Or in the case of these happas, going deaf.

Since I got them on a warrenty at ultimate I'll try to see if I can just get my money back outright and get something I like. I will give them credit, though, they are built fairly well and so handle power. I put in some earplugs (I wear earplugs a lot) and cranked them up a little. I heard no distress. Earplugs are the way to go to catch stuff like that, your ears don't get overwelmed and you can make out things like clipping tweets and bottoming woofers.

headless
11-13-2008, 08:13 AM
Kappas do sound horrible. I had a pair in my old corolla. I left them in it when i traded the car to someone. For a ****ing video card for my PC. They were that ******.

acubsfan
11-13-2008, 10:19 PM
I have the Kappa 60.7's as my front stage right now, and honestly have not been impressed. They weren't terrible, but there seems to be something seriously missing between my sub and my front stage and yeah, they can be insanely harsh sometimes. I have a set of Rainbow SLC Kick components I am going to swap them out with, and I also have a pair of ID OEM's to try as well. Hopefully I see a marked improvement with some combination of these.

Saint211
11-14-2008, 04:07 PM
Why would one install more than one...6x8...in each door?

Cause the space left in my door after I modified the door panel was perfect for 3 6x8, plus I could only get 6x8's and 6x9's at the time. As for multiples... So I can have insanely loud music as opposed to insanely loud bass.

Considering I got 3 pairs for less than retail of 1 pair..... I didnt really care

headless
11-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Well. It's probably kinda loud i guess.

Yourgrandma
11-14-2008, 06:48 PM
I listened to the Boston Pro 60's today, after using the Wilson Audio MAXX for a primer. I must say I was very impressed. I think thats what I'm going for. I talked to Ultimate though and the best they can do is a store credit on the kappas. That ***** because I dont shop there anymore.

JrVtecAccord
11-14-2008, 08:17 PM
I listened to the Boston Pro 60's today, after using the Wilson Audio MAXX for a primer. I must say I was very impressed. I think thats what I'm going for. I talked to Ultimate though and the best they can do is a store credit on the kappas. That ***** because I dont shop there anymore.

Take the store credit and buy something that you can sell quickly on craigslist or similar. You will lose a little money but at least you can apply it to your next set of comps.

Yourgrandma
11-14-2008, 11:36 PM
Why not just sell the kappas on CL then?

The problem now is figuring out where I should buy the bostons. I ordered them from a seller on amazon for 300 but they called me 20 minutes later and said they were all out.

El Ropo
11-15-2008, 11:54 AM
Your Kappas sound horrible? Maybe because that's just what they do. Sound horrible. :fyi:

Quoted for the truth.

Doola36
11-15-2008, 11:58 AM
Well I like my Kappas....But who am I......:)

Yourgrandma
11-15-2008, 03:19 PM
I got the Pro 60's today. Im running the heater out in the shop, just waiting for it to warm up.

JrVtecAccord
11-15-2008, 03:41 PM
I got the Pro 60's today. Im running the heater out in the shop, just waiting for it to warm up.

Did you get the pro60se's or just the pro60's. I had some pro60's and the tweets can get pretty harsh too! I believe the se's have the same tweet as the spz's.

I just installed my spz60's yesterday and they kick arse! I am only running them off the HU and they already sound good, I can't imagine how they will sound with around 200wrms a piece.

Yourgrandma
11-15-2008, 05:44 PM
Just the regular pro60's. I agree, they are a tad bright, but at least it managable. With only one hot spot in the range, its a lot easier to get rid of with treb control, just find where it is and set my treb control to that freq, and turn it dow a bit. At least thats the hope. Worst case, I'll get different tweets.

Just came in to warm up a bit and figure out how to mount the crossovers. I guess liquid nails again, the one from the kappas (I'm still on the driver's side) was stuck in there pretty well. It's nice that the boston crossover splits in half, makes mounting easier. Or possible, of that matter, its huge in one piece.

Yourgrandma
11-15-2008, 09:15 PM
Ahhh!! Finished putting the Pro 60s in and what an improvement!! I still want to do the door panel mods and tweeter pods, but for now at least I can listen to some music in the car.

They are a touch on the bright side for my tastes, but I knocked it down 2dB@15khz and its much easier to listen to.

skylineqrt4
12-18-2008, 01:44 AM
I've never cranked on them, they've sounded terrible since they went in. I just finished it on Sunday night. I have my 4X65 bridged, but too much power will only hurt you if you use it. I ran it normal as well, and it was the same story, just less sencitive to volume changes.

I'm new to this site and i know its a little late being mid december and the last post was three weeks ago with the end result of a pair of new boston's... (nice choice!)... Their are two possiblity's that might make your kappa's may sound like crap.

1st. Kappas have two ohm voice coils. Most amps under $700 are not 2 ohm stable in bridge mode. I'm actually surprised that you did'nt fry your amp when you wired it in bridge mode.

2nd. Did you use stock speaker wire in the doors? ( 18 to 22 guage?)
the reason that i ask this is that infinity say's in its manual that it is safe to run 2ohm kappas directly from the head unit because stock speaker wire increases the resistance so as to not fry your decks amplifier. If you went with the stock wiring (a short cut for people who don't want to spend money on good wire or for people who don't want to hassle with wiring bigger wire threw to the door) you could possibly be running as much a 8 ohms from your amp (or around30 watts with peak power severely reduced). that would make just about any mid level or higher speaker sound like turds.

dewey79
01-01-2009, 09:45 PM
I have the infinity Kappa 60.9 and they are really good. I can hear things on the high end that I have never heard before. My tweeters are in my dash facing my wind shield and they sound really nice that way.

I am running them off a 2 ohm 2 channel, 200 rms per channel sony amp. I only have to turn my gain up a quarter of the way to get a sound that fills up my car.

They actully sound a lot like house speakers, but are crispy sounding and loud. I love them! They sound way better than the infinity reference components I had because they have more mid base, better surround sound, and detail. Whey they brake in the sound rolls off of thoses speakers like water and they are not harsh.

They will sound harsh if you are not giving them enough power, but be carful not to over power them either because they will not sound as good. Adjust your amp so that they play in a sweet spot.