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SPL140.2
01-26-2008, 02:12 AM
http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/4/3.html

Its all about "choices" my friends ;) Dont let them take that away from you!!!

egg

ngsm13
01-26-2008, 02:24 AM
http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/4/3.html

Its all about "choices" my friends ;) Dont let them take that away from you!!!

egg

Money hungry industry.

Killing the sport if you ask me.

:rolleyes:

nG

SPL140.2
01-26-2008, 02:31 AM
Money hungry industry.

Killing the sport if you ask me.

:rolleyes:

nG

X2!!!

egg

delvryboy
01-26-2008, 03:04 AM
sounds like an interesting idea

audiolife
01-26-2008, 05:10 AM
how is it killing the sport? it was dieing on the path that it was going down. if it wasn't for bass race the numbers would have been really low as far as competitors at a 6 location finals last year. The big companies can help support the shows and actually make them shows once again (fun) as well as bring the common retailer back into having shows. Has 0 to do with the quality of a product and levels the playing field for the average competitor. from the looks of it there would be no specialized equipment allowed in the basic classes which is a good thing. who is to say once the numbers of competitors gets back up that they wont have those "extreme street" classes again?

iagrdshaka
01-26-2008, 05:58 AM
this is why I'm moving more toward HT :crap:

SPL140.2
01-26-2008, 11:55 AM
how is it killing the sport? it was dieing on the path that it was going down. if it wasn't for bass race the numbers would have been really low as far as competitors at a 6 location finals last year. The big companies can help support the shows and actually make them shows once again (fun) as well as bring the common retailer back into having shows. Has 0 to do with the quality of a product and levels the playing field for the average competitor. from the looks of it there would be no specialized equipment allowed in the basic classes which is a good thing. who is to say once the numbers of competitors gets back up that they wont have those "extreme street" classes again?

One way is taking choices away from competitors. If a new blood comes into the sport and he had a tight budget and purchased a non sponsered sub or amp he automatically gets bumped in class. <---not fair.... I do see where it would help retailers and the sponsered mainstream companys but there is many different ways to approach this. People would go back to retail if there wasnt such a high spike on mainstream products and over the hill install charges ;) I can see a spike on mainstream products because of advertising/promoting.... But really overpaying on a sub by $100-200 bucks is rediculous as well as paying nearly $50-80 for an hour at a retail store for installations.

New blood competitors sometimes dont even know the rules of drag. He/She may come to an event for the first time with a small budget system and just because that person purchased a non supported mainstream product will automatically be bumped in class. Probably get spanked and never show up to another competition again.

With all the costs of points chasing you would think a money prize at the end would be available, I mean a trophey is nice but there should be more to keep competitors to stay in the competition lanes.

Another way to keep the sport going is having prizes at small events, Im sorry I have never been a long time fan of a $.10 piece of paper to give out for rankings in events or some cheap $1 doller trophey especially when registration fees are nearly $20-30 dollars for a single event. Ive held events locally purchased almost $400 dollers worth of kustum shirts to give out to the winners and still made a profit, it wasnt huge but still enough to host another event. If wayne would lower the costs of retail memberships and not charge so much for holding events more retailers would host them ;) I know around here there is hardly any big key events because of the price it would cost to host it. Big events brings in new blood as well as spectators!!!

these are just my thoughts my whole argument upon this topic is CHOICE!!! Why do people by internet brands --->Quality, Customer Support, and $ in which mainstream companys lack!!! Again dont let them take your choices away from you!!!

egg

JimJ
01-26-2008, 11:57 AM
What if I read it in drag, does that count? :)


Why do people by internet brands --->Quality, Customer Support, and $ in which mainstream companys lack!!!

That's not always true.


But really overpaying on a sub by $100-200 bucks is rediculous as well as paying nearly $50-80 for an hour at a retail store for installations.

Overpaying? What if someone wanted to buy a DLS product, for example, and wanted to make sure that they weren't getting a knockoff (as is common online for DLS). Or they wanted an actual place to return the item if something breaks. And as for installation, some people are just better at tuning things than building things, for them paying a competent installer that rate may be totally justified.

SPL140.2
01-26-2008, 12:24 PM
What if I read it in drag, does that count? :)



That's not always true.



Overpaying? What if someone wanted to buy a DLS product, for example, and wanted to make sure that they weren't getting a knockoff (as is common online for DLS). Or they wanted an actual place to return the item if something breaks. And as for installation, some people are just better at tuning things than building things, for them paying a competent installer that rate may be totally justified.

I agree thats not always the case but for the most part it is.

Again it all boils down to choices, If that consumer wanted to buy online he should. If that consumer was worried about those things you mentioned go to a retailer but it should be the consumers choice. I agree paying an installer those prices too if the installer was very good and reputable, but how many shops dont know what the heck there doing and do cheap fast installs and charge an arm and 3 legs to do it??

egg

squeak9798
01-26-2008, 12:46 PM
I think that it would be a bad decision to limit the classes as he indicated in the first post (only post I read), only allowing "Competition Grade" equipment (i.e. Internet brands) into the Extreme Class (if I'm reading that right...but either way they were excluded from the street class).

Why ? Well, that would essentially cut the nuts off of the little guy. Though I don't have any specific data, my general observation would be that a large number of "internet" brands get a large portion of their sales from competition use and/or competition-driven advertising; i.e. Joe off the street attends a DB Drag competition and sees someone using a Fi BTL in a street class with great results. That might get Joe interested in the brand, research and eventually purchase a Fi product.

How many of these large mainstream manufacturers started off as large mainstream companies ? How many of them just sprung up one day available nationwide in hundreds of retail locations ? None. Hell even JL, the stereotypical "mainstream" brand, started off as a small mail-order product line....essentially equivalent to today's internet companies. And look at what happened to RE. Started off as a small house brand for a buildhouse, got some good recognition both online and in competition and grew to become a retail brand.

Also, how is it decided what level of retail distribution or mass production does a product progress from "competition grade" (i.e. small non-retail presence) to "consumer grade" (retail) ? Number of dealers ? Percentage of retail sales to direct sales ?

If a manufacturer wants to have a better presence and better return for their investment, then they need to produce products that obtain results and are priced competitively in the market, rather than look to the independent organizations to cut back their rules (and effectively cut out their market competition) to allow them to prosper. Look at what Pioneer has done! They are a highly "retailed" mass-market company who had the product quality and marketing strategy to help create one of the loudest vehicles in the world. They didn't ask anyone to cater the rules to their needs in order to accomplish this. If other mainstream manufacturer's want equivalent results, then they need to follow someone like Pioneer's lead and come up with an equivalent strategy.

audiolife
01-26-2008, 12:47 PM
One way is taking choices away from competitors. If a new blood comes into the sport and he had a tight budget and purchased a non sponsered sub or amp he automatically gets bumped in class. <---not fair.... I do see where it would help retailers and the sponsered mainstream companys but there is many different ways to approach this. People would go back to retail if there wasnt such a high spike on mainstream products and over the hill install charges ;) I can see a spike on mainstream products because of advertising/promoting.... But really overpaying on a sub by $100-200 bucks is rediculous as well as paying nearly $50-80 for an hour at a retail store for installations.

New blood competitors sometimes dont even know the rules of drag. He/She may come to an event for the first time with a small budget system and just because that person purchased a non supported mainstream product will automatically be bumped in class. Probably get spanked and never show up to another competition again.

With all the costs of points chasing you would think a money prize at the end would be available, I mean a trophey is nice but there should be more to keep competitors to stay in the competition lanes.

Another way to keep the sport going is having prizes at small events, Im sorry I have never been a long time fan of a $.10 piece of paper to give out for rankings in events or some cheap $1 doller trophey especially when registration fees are nearly $20-30 dollars for a single event. Ive held events locally purchased almost $400 dollers worth of kustum shirts to give out to the winners and still made a profit, it wasnt huge but still enough to host another event. If wayne would lower the costs of retail memberships and not charge so much for holding events more retailers would host them ;) I know around here there is hardly any big key events because of the price it would cost to host it. Big events brings in new blood as well as spectators!!!

these are just my thoughts my whole argument upon this topic is CHOICE!!! Why do people by internet brands --->Quality, Customer Support, and $ in which mainstream companys lack!!! Again dont let them take your choices away from you!!!

egg

they couldnt even keep full brackets in street classes.....how was the sport growing?

Trey803
01-26-2008, 12:48 PM
just b/c the big name companies have this known bad effect on their products b/c they are big names doesnt mean they dont make a product every now and then that kicks ***

JimJ
01-26-2008, 12:50 PM
they couldnt even keep full brackets in street classes.....how was the sport growing?

With gas where it is and the economy in the tank, I doubt anything would really make the sport explode right now.

SPL140.2
01-26-2008, 02:06 PM
they couldnt even keep full brackets in street classes.....how was the sport growing?

this is why other organizations came up with rookie classess. For a newbie who would want to compete against a veteran competitor who has stayed in street class for years and get there but spanked in the lanes by 15db?? We all have been there thats why people dont compete anymore!! DB drag needs to put in a class for newbies where the rules arnt biased upon on the names on the equipment the competitors chose but rather have rules that are fair just for newbies!!

egg

DBDRAGGUY
01-26-2008, 02:40 PM
If the idea is to make the sport grow, then you need to simplify it. Not complicate matters with limiting equipment that can be used. If you want to fix the street classes limit the runs of power wire and for make fuses mandatory. Cap the note that can be played at 50 hz. As far as bringing the retail shops back into the mix, they created competitions and now the competitions have outgrown them. Why would a shop owner host a comp, if they are not going to sell more products as a result. If your shops sells Kicker and DD dominates your show, it just doesn't make good business sense. I think it is too late to bring the shops back into the mix. If we want to save the sport we need to take a new approach to hosting shows.

Joe Mamma
01-26-2008, 07:17 PM
i think it is the best thing that wayne could do, because lets face it, db drag has been going downhill pretty bad lately.

audiolife
01-26-2008, 09:47 PM
If the idea is to make the sport grow, then you need to simplify it. Not complicate matters with limiting equipment that can be used. If you want to fix the street classes limit the runs of power wire and for make fuses mandatory. Cap the note that can be played at 50 hz. As far as bringing the retail shops back into the mix, they created competitions and now the competitions have outgrown them. Why would a shop owner host a comp, if they are not going to sell more products as a result. If your shops sells Kicker and DD dominates your show, it just doesn't make good business sense. I think it is too late to bring the shops back into the mix. If we want to save the sport we need to take a new approach to hosting shows.

i think you have that back wards about who out grew who where when and why. shops used to hold more shows with that came manufacturer support and more money put into the shows to make them wanted to be seen by spectators

DBDRAGGUY
01-27-2008, 12:49 AM
i think you have that back wards about who out grew who where when and why. shops used to hold more shows with that came manufacturer support and more money put into the shows to make them wanted to be seen by spectators

Your right, I should have said grown apart.

audiolife
01-27-2008, 12:50 AM
Your right, I should have said grown apart.

that is about as accurate of a statement one could make!

duece212
01-27-2008, 01:05 AM
I will never compete because I cannot devote the amount of money it takes to be competitive locally, let alone nationally. Now say I can only buy certain retail chain products which can sometimes give lower performance/dollar than an internet brand I have access to? Why would I spend more money for less product just to compete?

Tell me where this is getting better again? This might be better for the industry in some way but for me, the cheap bastard that I am, I don't see this as a step closer in me wanting to compete.

For the industry's sake, I hope that everybody sees it differently than I do.

audiolife
01-27-2008, 01:07 AM
I will never compete because I cannot devote the amount of money it takes to be competitive locally, let alone nationally. Now say I can only buy certain retail chain products which can sometimes give lower performance/dollar than an internet brand I have access to? Why would I spend more money for less product just to compete?

Tell me where this is getting better again? This might be better for the industry in some way but for me, the cheap bastard that I am, I don't see this as a step closer in me wanting to compete.

For the industry's sake, I hope that everybody sees it differently than I do.

noone knows what will be on the lists yet so how do you know?

duece212
01-27-2008, 01:13 AM
noone knows what will be on the lists yet so how do you know?

It just looked like this would be retail store based brands, which would leave out a few internet based companies here in the U.S. (not that many). Thats how I was making my list. It sounded like a company may be a DB drag supporter but if not available at a brick and morter then they aren't allowed (thats my assumption from that post, and you know what people say about assumptions).

Honestly when I see stuff like this I think back to when I was a kid growin up and audio seemed like a much bigger industry and had more appeal than it does now. When I was younger I went to competitions and always wanted to compete, now...not so much. I'm lost sometimes trying to figure out why. Maybe when I was younger I didn't realize how much it really took to compete at a respectable level...:confused:

DBDRAGGUY
01-27-2008, 01:34 AM
It just looked like this would be retail store based brands, which would leave out a few internet based companies here in the U.S. (not that many). Thats how I was making my list. It sounded like a company may be a DB drag supporter but if not available at a brick and morter then they aren't allowed (thats my assumption from that post, and you know what people say about assumptions).

Honestly when I see stuff like this I think back to when I was a kid growin up and audio seemed like a much bigger industry and had more appeal than it does now. When I was younger I went to competitions and always wanted to compete, now...not so much. I'm lost sometimes trying to figure out why. Maybe when I was younger I didn't realize how much it really took to compete at a respectable level...:confused:

I am getting the same impression of limiting what can be used. A new would be competitor shows up with an amp he got from his brother or bought from a friend and its not on the approved equipment list. He gets thrown to the wolves and never returns. I was 15 when I got the bug, and before I had a car I was collecting used equipment for my system . I am sure this is the scenario for alot of new guys coming into the sport. So limiting equipment isn't the answer. The big retailers are behind the times with getting the product to the people for a reasonable price. Now Db Drag is going to attempt to bridge the gap in hopes that it will bring revenue. The competitors make this sport, not the retailers. How many local shops have you seen go under in the last 5 years? 5-7 just in my area alone. The internet retailers are offering better products at the same or better prices. Who are you going to buy from?

duece212
01-27-2008, 01:53 AM
http://www.termpro.com/dbdrag/rules/2008/matrix08B.htm

So a guy with a 15 in the back of his SUV gets to compete with a guy with an extreme built vehicle with the 15 walled off and all modifications allowed in the extreme classes?

Off topic of the"approved list" hardware but still seems outta whack.

Fear Of Theive
01-27-2008, 01:59 AM
So does this mean..That this summer since i wanted to run street B I can't and i gotta do like ss?


And i wonder what they'd do for people Like Team Wolfpack- Bill Makes his own subs?

mjf
01-27-2008, 02:34 AM
this being a way to give the bigger companies more money :rolleyes:

this is probably one of the most idiotic ideas ive seen in quite a long time.

audiolife
01-27-2008, 04:33 AM
It just looked like this would be retail store based brands, which would leave out a few internet based companies here in the U.S. (not that many). Thats how I was making my list. It sounded like a company may be a DB drag supporter but if not available at a brick and morter then they aren't allowed (thats my assumption from that post, and you know what people say about assumptions).

Honestly when I see stuff like this I think back to when I was a kid growin up and audio seemed like a much bigger industry and had more appeal than it does now. When I was younger I went to competitions and always wanted to compete, now...not so much. I'm lost sometimes trying to figure out why. Maybe when I was younger I didn't realize how much it really took to compete at a respectable level...:confused:

how are these companies supporting db drag? by getting product out? you might see it as one sided as that but it takes alot more than that to help support a show. takes sponsership money to hold other events to make it a real show that has a crowd and spectators as well as competitors can win other prizes.

all this "pricing" i hear about is a little strange as you have full retail, and MAP prices. i have yet seen a dealer not at least off MAP to help get a sale. that price although higher than ebay is still a fair price. over all starting from scratch i would venture to say to be REAL WORLD competitive the costs will be much less. i highly doubt you will need 2 5000 +++watt amps to be competitive. to those that say "this will kill it" the way it has been going over the last few years doing the last 2-3 years seems to have been killing itself.

delvryboy
01-27-2008, 07:01 AM
Look at it this way...... nothing is stopping anyone from buying from internet stores.

2critical
01-27-2008, 08:22 AM
this being a way to give the bigger companies more money :rolleyes:

this is probably one of the most idiotic ideas ive seen in quite a long time.

x2

2critical
01-27-2008, 08:34 AM
IMO, The problem isn't that companies like DD, RE, Sundown, etc. are kikin' that arse. If you think about it, competitors come from spectators, the truth is this has got to be worse than golf from a spectators point of view. I recently went to a show to watch the SPL and when they started at 1 pm we went over. The guy we had seen earlier sitting on his arse all morning is running that part of the show. Well he starts to "tech in" the first car. 15 mins. later you hear a couple notes. Repeat process, if nothing is wrong. If it is add another 5-10 mins. before the guy makes his run.

SPL140.2
01-27-2008, 01:45 PM
how are these companies supporting db drag? by getting product out? you might see it as one sided as that but it takes alot more than that to help support a show. takes sponsership money to hold other events to make it a real show that has a crowd and spectators as well as competitors can win other prizes.

all this "pricing" i hear about is a little strange as you have full retail, and MAP prices. i have yet seen a dealer not at least off MAP to help get a sale. that price although higher than ebay is still a fair price. over all starting from scratch i would venture to say to be REAL WORLD competitive the costs will be much less. i highly doubt you will need 2 5000 +++watt amps to be competitive. to those that say "this will kill it" the way it has been going over the last few years doing the last 2-3 years seems to have been killing itself.

they need to put a rookie class for newbies with no biased rules on equipment being used but rather topped off at watts or sub size. They should also make veterans who are competitng in the same class year after year to move up. I never understood how an installer or someone who has ties to a company can compete in street classes agains a newbs its just not fair.

egg

audiolife
01-27-2008, 04:20 PM
they need to put a rookie class for newbies with no biased rules on equipment being used but rather topped off at watts or sub size. They should also make veterans who are competitng in the same class year after year to move up. I never understood how an installer or someone who has ties to a company can compete in street classes agains a newbs its just not fair.

egg

no biased rules for newbies? from last i have seen there isnt even a list yet that is done. why dont we wait and see what is done first before we complain/tweak too much. i would hope that in the basic classes they DONT allow amps or subs that cost several thousands of dollars. that would be my only complaint. amps wit a price range of up too $1000 (from their list) subs up to $350 in their list would be an excellent starting point. this isnt about money this is about throwing an identity back into the sport that is recignizable to help bring new blood in and hopfully make a big show a real show again (hopefully it developes more than 1 show to be big again).