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View Full Version : Imaging/integration, vs keeping a stealthy install w/ new highs



Betrayer00GT
12-20-2007, 09:47 PM
Hey guys. Good advice on these forums, so far. Looking for another bit of input.

I just added a 4" coax pair, the Infinity Reference 4012i, to my roommate's Crutchfield order because they only cost me $23.99 after 20% off. I paid no tax or shipping, either. :D Now, what to do with them, exactly...

FYI, I already have some 6"X8" Polk EX coax speakers in the bottom of my doors by the kick panels (This is a 2000 Mustang GT, and that is just the stock front location), and I will end up running the Polks @ something like 80Hz - 200Hz (I will try a Low-pass between 150Hz and 250Hz and see what works well), and then they will hand off to these Infinity Reference 4"ers. That is the plan, at least. I won't have the Infinity's here for a while, since they will ship from the other end of the US, plus it is during the Christmas shipping rush time. Also, 80Hz and below is the 15" MB Quart Reference 15"er in the trunk that I got earlier for $100.

Now, I want to put these Infinity coaxials in a set of custom "sail panels" (on the top of the door by the window), or in some custom kick panels down by the Polks. My main concern with my system is maintaining an extremely stealthy install. For this reason, I prefer the sail panels, as this is a "Mach 460" factory-location (for some 2.5"ers). I never had the Mach system, but I do want a VERY stealth install, so I'm willing to take advantage of the fact that the Mach system uses this location. Custom kick panels are a pretty dead give away, I would think. I don't want my system to end up contributing to some thief's evening score at some point, and I will do what I can to avoid that.

I would like your guys' comments on the difference in imaging and integration with a sail panel install, vs a kick panel install of these Infinity's. I an concerned that pointing them over at me from the sail panels will not actually image/sound as good as putting them in the kick panels and then aiming them up at me. My concerns are: The driver's side sail-panel-to-ear distance is much less than the same distance vs a kick panel install; They will be further away from the Polks handling the mid bass; They will be an "open air" mount (away from corners and such) and the Polks are located at the corner made by the doors and the front floorpan - very different tonality I would think (and so hard to integrate with out a good processor/eq).

I am concerned with sound quality, but a stolen system doesn't sound good at all, right? So, what do you guys think? Have I identified the pros/cons, or are there others, too? What would you do differently, anything? Thanks guys.

LaserRed38
12-20-2007, 10:44 PM
Don't take this the wrong way...but why do you seem obsessed with coaxials?

Betrayer00GT
12-21-2007, 12:00 AM
I don't think I am taking it the wrong way. I know components are better, by and large.

How about because I got the Polks in '03 for $70 and the 4"ers today for $24? That is $94 over 4 and a half years, which works better for my budget. I understand decent components are only ~$100, but that is $76 more than I just paid to go to a sub/midbass/highs setup. Does it make sense from that perspective?

If I could find some "Infinity Reference-series" level (ie, not the greatest but not "audiobling", either) component sets for ~$25, I am all for it. 4" components are fine too, since I plan to run these highs only above 150Hz (at a minimum), even up to above 250Hz (all @ 12dB/oct). I want the crossover that high mostly because it means I can get away with driver sizes that are easier to hide (even with the "shallow-ish" slope I need to use). Stealth is important to me, as I already mentioned. A 4" coaxial setup is even easier to hide than a 4" component set would be. Though, a component set of that size would be pretty easy to hide.

I am planing to use the Polk 6x8 coaxials for mid-bass just because I already have them, and they currently happen to work very well over that frequency range - to my ear.

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 12:24 AM
Mmkay gotcha. Did the 4 inchers come with speaker grilles? I honestly wouldn't mount those on the sail panels. Would you be glassin' a pod for them if you did? I have a non-Mach car and there is about .5" depth behind that little plastic piece that covers the mounting screws for the side mirrors...

I think the kicks would be your best bet. For sound, imaging and stealthiness. Jeez where in Sac do you live?? lol. Are your front windows tinted (I know we're in CA...)? BTW, what are you amping these with and do you still have your rear speakers?

Actually, the kicks might be kinda hard too, well at least on the driver's side. Unless you make some custom kicks. I think the hood-release might get in the way...Hmm...lemme go look at my car and I'll get back to you tomorrow haha. Nice to have someone else on here with a Mustang though. You should check out ca-mustangs.com if you're not on there...

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 12:31 AM
Actually I found a pic of the driver's kick:

http://www.fnsweet.com/garage/gauge/gauge010.jpg

I think they would work fine right under the release. Just make sure the passenger side is level obviously. Gonna take a little work to get them flush though. What color is your interior? You could just cover them with some speaker cloth if they don't have grilles.

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 12:53 AM
Here...since I'm feeling nice and not studying for my final tomorrow at 8 am, I did a quick chop for you haha...

Betrayer00GT
12-21-2007, 05:10 AM
Mmkay gotcha. Did the 4 inchers come with speaker grilles? I honestly wouldn't mount those on the sail panels. Would you be glassin' a pod for them if you did? I have a non-Mach car and there is about .5" depth behind that little plastic piece that covers the mounting screws for the side mirrors...

They do come with grilles, actually. My plan is to not use them, however. I do have tan grille cloth on its way from Darvex.com, since it (pretty much) matches my interior color.

Regardless of where I put them, I will use a bit of fiberglass to make a pod for them. With the sail panel, I would make one I could affix to the black stock piece, then I could make a few and see if one works better than another. Once I have one I like a lot, I could try a more "permanent" mounting method. I'd be in for a bit of experimentation, first though.

Pretty much the same thing with the kick option, except I would cut a decent size hole in the kick to recess the enclosure as much as I can, since there is a bit of room back behind there (less now that I run a 0ga power wire from the alt to the bat in the trunk through there, though).

A "pod" attached to the sail could be made to approximate a Mach 460 one, but the kick pod would stand out pretty bad I would think. I would cover either with that tan grille cloth on its way from Darvex.com, but still...



I think the kicks would be your best bet. For sound, imaging and stealthiness. Jeez where in Sac do you live?? lol. Are your front windows tinted (I know we're in CA...)? BTW, what are you amping these with and do you still have your rear speakers?

Rear speakers? Not for me. Besides, they would just end up being almost passive radiators for my sub in the trunk. I doubt they would survive the experience. lol

The kicks for stealthiness, really? I wouldn't have thought so. I do have front tint. I am just a tad too "law and order" to have done it myself, but it was on the car when I got it. I am not "law and order" enough to remove it with out a fix-it ticket, which I have been threatened with - but never actually issued (yay CHP!).

You know, Sac is in the top ten city list for car theft in the nation. You don't have to live in a "bad" area to get your car jacked up. That is for sure. In fact, I moved from a "suburbanite" area to a more "urban" area, and my ins rate went DOWN. They cruise those "rich neighborhoods" more, I guess. I hate thieves :verymad:

Well, if someone wants to steal my crap, they are in for a disappointment. :D

I run a Profile California-series CA200 for the highs (a high/low pass from 40-250Hz, IIRC) and a more recent 400SX version of the same series for the sub. I got them direct from Profile in socal for $39 and $45, respectively. They are rated at 65w by 2 and 300w by 1 in my application. Of course it is Profile, so I don't actually know what it is outputting. I run w/ only 13.8v at the (sub) amp power-terminals w/ the engine running, so it might not actually hit the rated power. I will say I don't care, because it is enough for my taste. I ordered a second refurb CA200 for $39 shortly after my roommate placed his (our, I guess) order off Crutchfield. It will power these Infinity's.

You know, I did a brief heads up between both the CA200, the 400SX, and my Parasound home audio amp (all rated with in +/- 10w per ch or so of each other) running off my Stereophile "Class A" rated SACD player, and powering my Dynaudio bookshelf speakers. With in the limits of my testing, there was no effective difference between the Profiles on pure battery DC and the Parasound off of the apartment's AC mains, BTW.

Oh, and I don't currently use the built in crossovers, as I got a demo AudioControl 2XS from a local shop for $49 before I finished my install. I went in for a bit of extra speaker wire, and left with that active crossover. That kinda felt like winning the lottery. I had my eye on one of those, already. Didn't really want to pay the $100 I was finding them for on the Internet, though. That would have been more than my head unit, or more than both of the amps I had at the time combined, lol. It would have only been as much as I paid for the 15" MB Quart Reference-series sub in my trunk, though. :crazy: $49 made way more sense.



Actually, the kicks might be kinda hard too, well at least on the driver's side. Unless you make some custom kicks. I think the hood-release might get in the way...Hmm...lemme go look at my car and I'll get back to you tomorrow haha. Nice to have someone else on here with a Mustang though. You should check out ca-mustangs.com if you're not on there...

Yeah, I don't see a lot of Mustang love here. Not so much hate, but no real love either. 'Brings a tear to me eye, lol. We both have '00 Mustangs, and we are both in California, not exactly shocking, huh? lol

I am on ca-mustangs, but I am on the Stangnet forums more often. CA-M for meets (when I can remember), and SN for tech questions and the like. Same ID on both, which is the one I use here.

As I mentioned, I will be using my (non-existent, but) elite fiberglassing skilz to do something for these 4" Infinity's, regardless of where I put them. The details of my plan are a bit vague and fuzzy, but it all works out really well in my head. :cool:

Thanks for the photochop, too. I wish I had more of the PS skilz. You know, to go with my 1337 fiberglassing skilz (not!). :D

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 09:46 AM
Hey....Profiles get the job done lol. With the grille cloth I would think the kicks would be less noticeable than the sails. Depends on how dark your tint is either way. But the kicks would give you the best sound. To me that is more important. I know stealthiness is more important to you. But you can't really see my kicks from the outside anyway and my front windows aren't tinted. I have my tweets mounted on the kicks fyi. I feel like the pod for some 4 inchers would be really noticeable on the sails, and stick out off the door quite a bit. That and from my experience with my last comp set and mounting the tweets there, the sound was all off (and harsh...but that was mostly because they were Type-Rs). Just some food for thought...BTW, I live in Stockton during the week so I know all about wanting to protect my car. Weird though, I don't have tinted fronts or an alarm, but I do use THE CLUB lol. Guess whose cars have been broken into?? My friends with front tints and alarms. [knock on wood]. I did have my bike jacked though....

tsenfw
12-21-2007, 10:31 AM
Mustang pride! hehe

I've got a 2000 3.8. Looking for a fox body to mess around with.

I'm getting a PG RSD's in a while. Anyone ever mount 6.5's in the doors where the factory 5 x 8's go? Trying to figure out where to put everything (amp, mids, tweeter). I have no fiberglass experience, I'd probably give it a shot but I dont' think it would come out great the first try.

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 12:40 PM
Yea...not hard at all. Just make a baffle out of MDF...cover it in deadener and you're set. I can go take my door panel and snap a pic for you if you want...

Betrayer00GT
12-21-2007, 12:51 PM
Hey....Profiles get the job done lol. With the grille cloth I would think the kicks would be less noticeable than the sails. Depends on how dark your tint is either way. But the kicks would give you the best sound. To me that is more important. I know stealthiness is more important to you. But you can't really see my kicks from the outside anyway and my front windows aren't tinted. I have my tweets mounted on the kicks fyi. I feel like the pod for some 4 inchers would be really noticeable on the sails, and stick out off the door quite a bit. That and from my experience with my last comp set and mounting the tweets there, the sound was all off (and harsh...but that was mostly because they were Type-Rs). Just some food for thought...BTW, I live in Stockton during the week so I know all about wanting to protect my car. Weird though, I don't have tinted fronts or an alarm, but I do use THE CLUB lol. Guess whose cars have been broken into?? My friends with front tints and alarms. [knock on wood]. I did have my bike jacked though....

You know, I don't have the speakers yet (they did ship today though, yay!), so maybe when I see them "in person" it will be apparent they are too big for the sails. I see what you mean about the kicks, now. I guess a 4" coax could get lost in the kicks, as a tweeter could. Hmm... better sound is good. I think I might just try the kicks first, then see what I end up with. If it is too obvious, I will try a sail panel, but maybe a 4" set will be to big to pull that off.

Thanks for the perspective.

I believe Stockton is on the same list that Sacramento is on (although it might be Fresno I am thinking of, hell it is likely all three are on the list). It is cool your stang has been left alone. Someone already popped my lock with a screwdriver/hammer combo. They got nothing, though. That was because there was nothing to get. No music, no loose change, no nothing. Well a digital tire pressure gauge, but they didn't even take that $8 modern marvel. :D



Mustang pride! hehe

I've got a 2000 3.8. Looking for a fox body to mess around with.

I'm getting a PG RSD's in a while. Anyone ever mount 6.5's in the doors where the factory 5 x 8's go? Trying to figure out where to put everything (amp, mids, tweeter). I have no fiberglass experience, I'd probably give it a shot but I dont' think it would come out great the first try.

The good ol' 5.0 in the foxes has so much cheap aftermarket vs my 4.6 "Modular". I wish.

I have my amps on the rear deck, and I think people with enough Patience (not always me, but sometimes) can get good fiberglass results, even the first time. Just make sure to educate yourself so there are no major blunders the first time, lol.

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 01:05 PM
I'm gonna go snap some picks of my tweets for ya guys...

grampi
12-21-2007, 01:17 PM
What HU are you using?

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Here's some pics...

Cleanest trunk on CA.com lol
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0033.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0034.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0035.jpg


You can see it with the flash, but that is with a flash and no tinted windows. I think your 4inchers covered by the grille cloth and tints will be pretty hidden...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0037.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0038.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0041.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0042.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0043.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0044.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/pnemeth12705/PICT0045.jpg


Yea I need more SD and its kinda ghetto, but I have plans lol..don't we all??

tsenfw
12-21-2007, 02:21 PM
Nice. Thanks for the pics. Couple of questions. Where are your sub/subs? What size are those components and did you have to trim the door frame or covering? And are those tweeters velcroed on? lol

Betrayer - I say just mount on the back of the seat. I took a piece of ply slightly bigger than my amp, carpeted it, and screwed it right into the backing of one of the seats. Then mounted a fairly big amp on it. It all fit nicely behind one seat!

LaserRed38
12-21-2007, 03:02 PM
The comps are 6.5s. No other mod needed other than the 5x7 to 6.5 baffle. Yes I have the tweets temporarily velcroed. I'm going to make some glass pods for em eventually. I did that intentionally so that I could move them around until I got them just right to my ears. And...subs? We don't need no stinkin subs!! No just kidding, the OP wanted to see a stealth install so yea...try and find my subs haha.

I used to have 2 10" Type-Rs. The whole system was Alpine. Type-R comps and 5x7 coaxs in the back. Then I learned about Car Audio lol. Got a set of the CDTs, but my 4 ch Alpine was only putting out 75x4, so I stepped up to the Audison 2ch and ditched the rears. Then I decided my sub box took up too much trunk and blocked my rear shock towers so I couldn't use my new rear shock tower brace. SO, sold the subs and sub amp. Keeping the 4ch for a budget install in my dad's F150. I was planning on getting a 1.1k and a Fi Q, but once I got back to school, bills and food took priority over sound. Maybe over winter break...

mlstrass
12-21-2007, 04:22 PM
Hey guys. Good advice on these forums, so far. Looking for another bit of input.

I just added a 4" coax pair, the Infinity Reference 4012i, to my roommate's Crutchfield order because they only cost me $23.99 after 20% off. I paid no tax or shipping, either. :D Now, what to do with them, exactly...

FYI, I already have some 6"X8" Polk EX coax speakers in the bottom of my doors by the kick panels (This is a 2000 Mustang GT, and that is just the stock front location), and I will end up running the Polks @ something like 80Hz - 200Hz (I will try a Low-pass between 150Hz and 250Hz and see what works well), and then they will hand off to these Infinity Reference 4"ers.

How do you plan to bandpass the Polk coax's? Just setting a HP filter will still let them play everything above 150hz or whatever you set it at.

Also what are you trying to gain by doing this set up? I'm a little confused as I can't believe the Polk mids have any midbass to speak of and they already play the mids/highs, so how will the 4" ers help?

Personally I'd shell out $100 for a decent set of comps and be done with it, but I am interested to see how it works out for you.

Betrayer00GT
12-21-2007, 05:11 PM
How do you plan to bandpass the Polk coax's? Just setting a HP filter will still let them play everything above 150hz or whatever you set it at.

Also what are you trying to gain by doing this set up? I'm a little confused as I can't believe the Polk mids have any midbass to speak of and they already play the mids/highs, so how will the 4" ers help?

Personally I'd shell out $100 for a decent set of comps and be done with it, but I am interested to see how it works out for you.

I saw it asked before, so the HU I am using is a Clarion DXZ475MP. I have it running with "Internal Amp Cancel" enabled. My roommate just ordered one for $72, after 20% off. That is the order I added the Infinity Reference 4"ers to.

As far as how the crossover setup will work, I am running an Audio Control 2XS w 80Hz crossover and 20Hz subsonic modules, ATM. That will not change. The >80Hz output for L&R will each get y-split to the two CA200 Profile's. They will each do either a lowpass for the Polks or a highpass for the Infinity's somewhere between 150Hz and 250Hz. Their internal x-overs max out at 250Hz. I did not get a 400SX for either the mid-bass or highs, even though it is more power for only $6 more, simply because their internal x-overs max out at 140Hz. With the 12dB/oct slopes they all use, that might not have been high enough.

So, it will be the Clarion "Front RCAs" -> AudioControl 2XS, and from there:

A.C. 80Hz lowpass to Profile 400SX for the sub, w/no crossover enabled on the amp
A.C. 80Hz highpass to one Profile CA200 with lowpass between 150 and 250Hz enabled for mid-bass duty (on the amp itself)
a second AC 80Hz high pass to the other Profile CA200 with this amp's highpass set to the same frequency as the other CA200's lowpass.



EDIT: Oh, and as to why/my thinking. The stock position in the Mustang puts the front door speaker well into the door panel. It is also basically vertical, with a nod toward the idea of pointing at the listener, but no actual effect as far as that goes. This means the driver's side speaker is blasting at the drivers feet and the lower dash, but not really at the drivers ears. Just to make things more interesting, the passenger side door speaker is almost pointed right at the driver. Sound above a certain point, and well before 20KHz, is directional enough that this different effect for each side kills (as in kills-it-dead) imaging.

See what LaserRed38 did with the tweets in his component set? I am doing the same thing, in effect, except my "component set" is a 6x8 woofer for "down low" (at least 250Hz, maybe as low as 150Hz, is as high as they will get), with a 4" for the big human voice range above that, and passively handing off the tippy-top to a small tweeter (likely somewhere around 5KHz, but not sure on that). As long as I can get things to integrate, I should be able to image like crazy. Which would be a major improvement from where things stand, ATM.

As far as the Polks not having any real midbass output, I don't think so. Something like Cake's "Short skirt, long jacket" has a drum that does not go low, but is really prominent. I believe it is the Polks handling a lot of that. That song works really well in my car, even before the damping material (12sqft to start) has arrived, with the grille cloth, from Darvex.com - though that might be today. I would like to get a Real Time Analyzer on this system when I have it closer to where I ulitmately would like it to be. Then maybe an eq is in my future. Hopefully not, but I would like to KNOW one way or the other, thus a pass with an RTA is difinately in my future.

A reminder on an important part of this, from my perspective. This whole switch from Polk 6x8s as highs to Polk mid-bass and Infinity Reference highs, is going forward because I got the speakers for $24. If they ****/this doesn't work, I wouldn't really care. I am out some time, but that it it really, right? Well, once you take into account that I will have the kick panels wired with 65watts/ch, and the doors wired with another 65watts/ch available, (and could go straight to something more appropriate/proven to work well), it is a no harm = no foul situation. And that is only if it bombs because I just can't get it to work for some reason. I wouldn't have spent even the $24 if I thought that would happen, really. If it does go wrong, I will just grab some ~$200 components after a bonus rolls in, or after I pay off the car (6-months from now, maybe a bit more) - you know, something more proven to work well. Then I could bridge a CA200 amp into each front channel, to run @ a Profile rated 190watts/ch up there. lol

I don't see what I lose by giving it a shot. :shrug:

Betrayer00GT
12-24-2007, 04:44 PM
Got my damping material a couple days ago, and I have done the door panels and doors. I like the difference. :D

...more to do, of course.

The scheduled delivery date for the 4" Infinity Reference coaxials is the 3rd. Not going to try any fiberglass for them until they are here and it can be perfectly custom fitted. Well, probably. I might get impatient if I have some extra time.

EDIT:


...I'm a little confused as I can't believe the Polk mids have any midbass to speak of ...

Well, with the damping of the doors done, my Polks keep the "bass image" (for lack of a better term) up front all the time. In other words, all bass seems to come from in front of me, but that's only if I can tell where it's coming from at all. I have yet to damp behind my driver's position at all yet (including putting any in the trunk), so I do hear rattles from behind me at times, but that is not the same thing. I am throughly impressed. From the mid-bass and down, anyway.

It still images like crap, in general, due to the poor nature of the door location from the factory. However, I get my imaging "reference" from the Dynaudio bookshelf speakers I have in both of my home audio systems. I have a setup for Home Theater and a separate one for music. They both set my standards pretty high. We will see if I can fix the imaging in my car (or improve it just enough to satisfy) some time after the Infinity Reference coaxials arrive - in less than a week from this edit. I will not put them in without appropriate fiberglass additions to the kicks for them, however. Plus, the kicks and the fiberglass additions must all be covered in my "tan" grille cloth before they can be installed. Otherwise the install will be pretty obvious.

All of that will not get done quickly. :(