PDA

View Full Version : Any Car Salesmen here?



theCybe
12-05-2007, 02:10 PM
Please post tips for buyers. :)

I realize that most car buyers go in with a combative attitude, and are skeptical and wary of salesmen - making the experience painful for both sides.

What's the best way to avoid the whole scenario and just buy a car for a decent price without having to go through the battle?

Personally, I'd rather the salesman give me the car at the absolute best price - and throw him five hundred bucks as a thanks.

That's better than most commission, right?

Thanks. :)

hoss
12-05-2007, 02:12 PM
i was hired to be a car salesman once. i never went to the training classes. true story, i kinda wish i had gone. that would be a pretty chill job.

jdawg
12-05-2007, 02:23 PM
i was hired to be a car salesman once. i never went to the training classes. true story, i kinda wish i had gone. that would be a pretty chill job.

except it revolves HEAVILY around comission so you will be at the dealership 60 hours a week and 90% of that time you are sitting around wasting time for a customer to stop by

JimJ
12-05-2007, 02:48 PM
Tips for buyers?

Yeah, buy used :)

A good friend of mine is a former salesman turned manager...as much as I like him, I don't think I could ever buy something new now :D

SteveSkal
12-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Car salesmen are sleeze balls. of course there are exceptions to every rule but most would kill their own mother for a sale.

lilmaniac2
12-05-2007, 03:34 PM
Tips for buyers?

Yeah, buy used :)

A good friend of mine is a former salesman turned manager...as much as I like him, I don't think I could ever buy something new now :D


the price dave has offered me on some used stuff made me very happy

Ive sold used cars before on the side, for my boss who owned both atv store and car dealership. Its a bit different than new cars so I cant really help ya

theCybe
12-05-2007, 04:16 PM
Ever take your commission under the table? ;)

Raffi
12-05-2007, 04:19 PM
Get a PAL (pre approved loan) from your bank....then go buy a car.

theCybe
12-05-2007, 04:51 PM
Fortunately, I work for the bank >: )

hoss
12-05-2007, 06:39 PM
a good tip, dont go in like you own the place, but dont be a pushover either. take your time and dont let them push you around or tempt you. when i was recently car shopping at one dealership i made them an offer, and the manager told me "well thanks for coming by but we cant do that", so i politely told him thanks and i stood up and headed for the door. he screamed at me "hey where are you going???", to which i responded that i was leaving after he thanked me for coming by, and he said he was just kidding. i told him to never kid with me again, and if im serious i expect him to be serious as well (i cussed alot too, i do that alot). be stern with them, but remember their side as well.

a crapton of dealerships are going to a "no haggle" format though, so be prepared for that.

Skip01
12-05-2007, 08:06 PM
Now more than the salesmen about the car....i used to be one for new cars and i cant tell ya how many times i just BSed something i didnt know, it got hilarious at times

SuperchargedRS
12-07-2007, 10:16 PM
Well well well,

get a loan from the bank first, that takes the payment thing out of the picture.

when a salesman brings you the 4 square (it's the paper that has the price in the top R corner what they are taking your trade for in the left and the down in the left bottom and payemtn in the bottom R) they try to keep you off the price of the car by changing payments (extending a loan to make the payments lower.

Tricks, if your smart youi not buying a new car, when you look for a used car look for the cars on the lot with like a little smiley face sticker or star on them (only a few casr will have them) this tends to mean that the car has been on the lot for a while and the used car manager want to gone, tose cars can be had for a good price.

Secondly DONT BE A D1CK, it wont get anything done, theve seen it before (also the guys that come in like rambo tend to be the ones that get raped on the 4 square).

Now what you want to do is bring a woman with you (like a girlfriend or wife) this way you can be into the car and they can b1tch about the price "well we really cant afford that, we wanted to pay xxx OTD (out the door). THIS works well.

BE nice but stick to your guns.

finally when they ask you to sign the 4 square, likke they say "sign here saying that if I can do this then you will sign and drive the car away" sign it; that piece of paper mean jack chit, but unless you sign the desk guy (the sales dudes boss) wont negotiate because it looks like you are not willing to play ball/ or are a jack.

If you are buying a new car buy it from the "fleet" department, these guys only get paid more for volume (sometimes they make a flat rate per car sold, hence the reason they may have to sell 25 cars to have a good month where as the normal sales guy will sell 9), you can bounce numbers with the fleet guy (or if they have a internet dept. use that) from lot to lot, usualy these fleet/internet guys will drop there pants as they are all about volume). Also saying you are a cosco member sometimes makes them sell you the car for like 250ish over cost (new cars only) and yes they will ask to see the cosco card.

Buy the car at the end of the month, as they have sales competitions which go off cars sold.

uhhhh.. cant think of anything else right now, oh yea, if your really smart you will take the check the bank gives you, get a auto trader and try to get a car that way, those tend to be the best deals, sometimes you can find someone that is still ows money on the car, and you can pick it up CHEAP, best trick is to get a older autotrader (like 3 or 4 weeks old) fin the a little steeply priced cars, and call them as those people tend to wake up when the bill comes in the mail for the next payment yet the phone isnt ringing w/ buyers!...that or make a friend and go to the auction (no this is NOT the public auction)

also the I'll give you 200 bucks under the table thing wont work, the guy at the desk needs to make money too, and the salesman isnt even CLOSE to the finaly word. also dont buy any of that crap in the F&I office, except GAP insurance (if you insurance provider doesnt have it) that stuff is also price negotiable.

hoss
12-07-2007, 10:20 PM
also, avoid carmax. they are ****.

btdickey99
12-07-2007, 10:22 PM
Im a car salesman

hoss
12-07-2007, 10:23 PM
Im a car salesman

good advice.

billabongcr
12-07-2007, 10:25 PM
interesting stuff

billabongcr
12-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Moar!!!

SuperchargedRS
12-07-2007, 10:29 PM
...

billabongcr
12-07-2007, 10:30 PM
...

ninja edit?

btdickey99
12-07-2007, 10:32 PM
*Getting a loan isnt the best start. The way I would do it is find the car first off. Assuming its used offer something really low for the car(average used car has 3-5k markup). When you let them know that this is the car and are talking numbers let them come back and the whole time act like this car is out of your league. Offer really low number maybe $3500 cheaper then what the price is. Once you finalize on a prize tell them you all of a sudden have a trade.

*The whole time you tell them you dont have a trade, and now throw it on them once you have a price set. The reason for this is that you will actually have an ACV(Actual cash value) not allowance. On this price you tell them that CarMax has offered w/e KBB is in excellent cond and that you would like to get that for your car.

*Now once you have settled on the 2 numbers tell them you need to leave and go thru your bank for financing. They will follow with, wahts your rate there. Knowing how your credit is will then lead you to tell them that your bank offers say, 5.9% for 60 mo(which is good on a used car). FYI, dealerships can get a point better than anyone bc they deal in bulk, and if they cant get your rate that low, they can buy the rate down, taking more money off the car.

*Once you get to warranties, most warranties the finance guy marks up $1000

Thats about it, any questions?

billabongcr
12-07-2007, 10:35 PM
i dont get any of that, but it sounds good

btdickey99
12-07-2007, 10:37 PM
lol sorry....
I promise it works tho....Its been done to me, and everyone ends up happy in the end

Foote
12-07-2007, 10:38 PM
Eh...I buy super used cars. :) As long as she runs, ill take em on the low low loooow.

My advice: Look for the crappiest most ragged out thing thats still running. I got my 90 blazer for $200 and its been running since, and ive put no money in it for fixing (only electrical upgrades for sound system.) :)

SuperchargedRS
12-07-2007, 10:38 PM
**The whole time you tell them you dont have a trade, and now throw it on them once you have a price set. The reason for this is that you will actually have an ACV(Actual cash value) not allowance. On this price you tell them that CarMax has offered w/e KBB is in excellent cond and that you would like to get that for your car.


uhh and you think they are going to give you retail for your car?
Your argument is over come quickly by anyone that has worked the point for over a year,

bring the g/f or just a chick to play the g/f to buy the car

sell your trade car on auto-trader, the corner, to a friend. ebay whatever, but dont trade it in

2k vette 60k mi suggested trade (good condition) $16,895

same suggested private party $19,465

see what I am getting at (and a good salesman wont even give you suggested trade in value) whre the heck do you think all that markup on used comes from?

btdickey99
12-07-2007, 10:41 PM
uhh and you think they are going to give you retail for your car?
Your argument is over come quickly by anyone that has worked the point for over a year,

bring the g/f or just a chick to play the g/f sell your car on auto-trader, the corner, to a friend. ebay whatever, but dont trade it in

Its obviously smarter to sell your car outright, but most dont want to deal. Maybe try telling them that you will have to wait to sell the car on your own b4 doing business. Once they cant budge anymore on any prices then they will tell you

billabongcr
12-07-2007, 10:43 PM
my dad was a master mechanic so grew up working in the garage with him, and i go to school for automotive collision repair.

so when they see me getting my hands dirty under the hood and under the truck looking at EVERYTHING..they usually tend to walk away until im done.

i usually dont find many vehicles i like anyways..everything has something wrong with them :crap: so i dont much get to the talking numbers stage

Ferendon
12-08-2007, 01:26 AM
/facepalm
Every single piece of advice in here sounds like it's from a ****ing "I think I know everything, so I'm going to be an *******" car buyer. You people are so far off base, it's not even funny. I've seen a FEW pieces of advice worth a ****, the rest is uneducated assumptions. I sold cars, quite successfully for quite some time, well over 2 years, and I'm still involved very closely with several dealerships, on a daily basis.

OSF (Outside Financing) is NOT, always the best way to go. OSF doesn't have incentivised rates, and you often lose other incentives. And you can't lease through OSF. And OSF rarely gives you a few extra points to get to the next tier, whereas a dealership quite often will. OSF also doesn't have the carry percentages of a dealer bank.

The 4-square is price, rebates, and incentives in the top right, trade offer in the top right, down payment in the bottom left, and payments in the bottom right. And most dealers are going to a 9 square for leases, and 18 squares for purchases.


If you're smart, you purchase new or used, depending on your needs, and what kind of car it is. If you need a large SUV, and you find a good used one, it's probably a safe bet. And always buy certified. If you're buying a truck, sports car, or any other type of vehicle that is known for hard use, then buy new. You don't want someone else's sticky lifters or glazed clutch.
Old age units are very rarely marked, but are quite often spiffed and have a large mini. This means nothing to the purchaser, other than knowing that both the dealer and the salesperson want to sell that car. After 90 days on the lot, that car gets very expensive for the dealer to keep, so they have to move it, and quickly. Just ask your salesman. If he sees a sure $500 commission, a spot on a bonus board, a vin, and most of the time, 2 moves, he'll gladly show you those cars. Vins and moves are used to determine bonus eligibility and amount, so if he can get more than one from a single car, then he'll most often do so without batting an eye. This is also why the under the table pay rarely works. They might make half of what you're offering them in commission, but they make it back quite easily in bonuses.

The test drive is going to be filled with the salesperson making assumptions, and stating things as if you've already agreed to them. Don't argue. Just smile a nod. He thinks he's got you for sure, so the moment the 4 square rolls out, you can argue, crush him, and send him back into the sales office defeated. Have the trade detailed before you take it in to trade it in. If possible, have it done at the dealership you're purchasing from. Then when they nit pick the interior or body, about stains, swirl marks, anything like that, you can blame their detail crew.

Bringing a wingman or third baseman is a horrid idea. A wingman being someone, like a wife or girlfriend that will not be on the F&I paperwork. A third baseman is someone who is in no way related to the purchase, as in a father-in-law, co-worker, boss... This just pisses them off, and does so very quickly. Just like you can walk away from a deal, a car salesman can **** you hard. I've seen sales managers 'sling' customers... Which means submitting them to every available bank, with stretched numbers, so it takes a while to get a 'no or go'. That way no other dealer can submit you, for at least a day or two. And if the bank approves you, they do so through the dealership that submitted the deal, and if they turn you down, it's hard to get them to make a second look when they see your name. BUT, if you buy from the dealer that submitted you, he can call, tell the bank the REAL numbers, and have it approved over the phone, in a matter of minutes.

The first rule of the 4-square (for the salesman), is to get a commitment. When they bring it to you, let them talk. They'll read it all to you, and explain everything. Let them do this. They will ask "Which one is gonna work best for you?" and set their pen down. Take your own pen, it's a blow to their plan. As soon as they lay their pen down, you pull yours out, and state very clearly "It's cool, I've got my own pen". They say the pen is mightier than the sword. This is very true in the car business. After you read what he has presented you with, flip the paper over. Write down your down payment, term (in months), and a payment range of $10. I.E. : $1000 down, 60 x $450 - $460, write down the amount of the trade if there is one. Sign it, and slide it back to them, lean back in your chair, and don't say a word. ANY time you're working with numbers, encroach them. Lean in on them. Sit directly across the table. If you're across from them, you're battling, if you're next to them, you're 'agreeing'. Of course, some salespeople are different, and this works best sitting next to them. Your first offer needs to be retarded. Absolutely insane, and you need to understand, that it WILL get kicked back. But it will help put them in place, just like they tried to do to you with the 'first pencil'. They'll usually say it can't be done. Make a snide comment, something along the lines of "That's not your decision, now run along and ask you daddy little boy". Make them feel like they are a gopher. The deal is between you and the manager, and he is quite literally a gopher. Let him know that you understand this, and are going to treat him as such.

Not just anyone can walk in and purchase fleet. As a matter of fact, fleet requires a DBA most of the time, to get an approval as a fleet purchaser. And rarely will you get a fleet approval on 1 car for you first fleet purchase. Usually, if you've never purchased fleet, you have to buy 2 or more cars to get in that door. Internet departments are great, but correspond by e-mail until you're where you want, or really close, with the numbers. Print your ENTIRE correspondence. Every single e-mail, both yours and theirs. Everything from your initial contact, to the very last e-mail sent. Internet departments are notorious for changing their minds, or pretending they never said something. Internet departments usually start with a near-invoice price, and even if they don't, they have no more wiggle room, than any other salesman. It doesn't matter how you approach the dealer, the invoice and hold back values are the same. This holds true for all dealers too. All of the dealers have the same invoices for the same vehicles, so if one Ford dealer can sell a car for $22,222, then any other dealership can as well. Buy from a dealer that you like, and large dealers are often rude, and rely on customers assuming that it's cheaper because the dealer is so large. There's no such thing as 'buying power' in the car business, at least not on new cars.

Buying at the end of the month is the same as buying at the beginning of the month. Direct dealer competition is minimal, and most clearance sales start at the beginning of the month, and last til the end. In some cases, you might get lucky, and the dealer will be a few units from some sort of goal, but this is RARE, and when it does happen, it happens early in the day, on the last Saturday of the month, as long as there are 3 or 4 days left in the month after that Saturday.

If you have an OSF check, never tell them. Pull it out last minute, but again, I warn against this. There are more headaches with OSF then one would care to think.

Buy whatever you see fit in the F&I office. Gap insurance is a must, and should RARELY be $1000, and almost as rarely above $500. I sold a $51,000 Armada, and the cost on the Gap insurance was $331. Have no fear of what they have to offer, just make sure you have a decent sense of what the product is worth. If they offer you PermaPlate, offer them $150 for it, but PermaPlate or Paint and Fabric protection, is well worth the $150 it's worth. If they hit you with Wheel and Tire coverage, consider the wheels and tires on your car. If you're buying a base model with steelies and hubcaps, it's unneeded, if you got the twinkies and stinkies (High end wheels and decent tires)... Well, you get the idea. Never buy wheels and tires from a dealership, unless you are CERTAIN that the price is right. It hardly ever is.

There's more to it than this, but I don't know you people, so I'm not spending any more time correcting the drivel spilled upon the thread.

Ferendon
12-08-2007, 01:28 AM
Its obviously smarter to sell your car outright, but most dont want to deal. Maybe try telling them that you will have to wait to sell the car on your own b4 doing business. Once they cant budge anymore on any prices then they will tell you
When you trade in, you get a tax savings as well. So figure the tax on the trade in offer, and add it in there.

Ferendon
12-08-2007, 01:44 AM
*Getting a loan isnt the best start. The way I would do it is find the car first off. Assuming its used offer something really low for the car(average used car has 3-5k markup). When you let them know that this is the car and are talking numbers let them come back and the whole time act like this car is out of your league. Offer really low number maybe $3500 cheaper then what the price is. Once you finalize on a prize tell them you all of a sudden have a trade.

Where the hell did you hear most used cars have $3-5k in markup? That's a crock of ****. Most used car dealers don't make that around the house, much less on the front end of the deal. $1500-2500 is a safe assumption.

*The whole time you tell them you dont have a trade, and now throw it on them once you have a price set. The reason for this is that you will actually have an ACV(Actual cash value) not allowance. On this price you tell them that CarMax has offered w/e KBB is in excellent cond and that you would like to get that for your car.

First off, this is a good way to **** yourself. When you present the trade, the dealer has 2 numbers to play with to get the bottom line they want. On purchases w/o a trade, the dealer is going to set a higher price point. When you add the trade to an agreed price, you've already agreed to a higher price than if you have thrown the trade in to begin with. When it comes to financing, this can **** you as well. I've had customers approved at any bank they want, until we added the trade, and suddenly the bank either wouldn't look at the same deal again, or they where too ****ed to get out of the trade. And if the dealer says you'll need a higher down payment, after you add the trade, don't assume they are lying. Quite often a larger down payment is needed to swallow negative equity. A tad bit of negative equity can get them to drop the price a tad, but if it's anything more a few hundred bucks of negative equity, then you'll probably need more cash out of pocket. Car dealerships KNOW that CarMax NEVER offers Excellent, and they also don't go by KBB. KBB was developed for consumers, and has no bearing on dealer pricing. You're obviously not aware of Mannheim guides, or the Black Book. KBB is a 'shot in the dark guess', based on California's economy, and has absolutely no bearing anywhere else in the nation. Most dealerships are also smart enough to call CarMax and give them the stock number of the trade and ask what the offer was on it. CarMax will quite often tell them, too.

*Now once you have settled on the 2 numbers tell them you need to leave and go thru your bank for financing. They will follow with, wahts your rate there. Knowing how your credit is will then lead you to tell them that your bank offers say, 5.9% for 60 mo(which is good on a used car). FYI, dealerships can get a point better than anyone bc they deal in bulk, and if they cant get your rate that low, they can buy the rate down, taking more money off the car.

Unless you have actually talked to a bank or CU about a rate, never ballpark it, unless you specify that it is a CU. Banks use the same Tier levels as dealerships, and if you say "Bank One offered 5.9% over 60", then the sales manager will get his book out, look up Bank One, and see what the rate is for the Tier you're on. He can quickly call BS, as most banks don't changes rates arranged based on history with them, just with your credit history and rating. A CU will take in to account your history with them, and they do not use a Tier system, nor do they release their rates to financiers are car dealerships.

*Once you get to warranties, most warranties the finance guy marks up $1000

Again, lease the random numbers in your ***. Most warranties carry a few hundred in markup, but not $1000. The bank does not finance based on the bottom line, they are given an itemized list of the charges that create the total. If they price of something is too high, the bank will not allow it to be sold at that price, as they are the ones taking a liability involving a sum of money, which is larger than the value of the collateral.

theCybe
12-08-2007, 02:08 AM
carmax offered $800 on a car I traded for $3000. Hell with Carmax.

Hell with used cars, too. I'm willing to pay the extra two grand for a brand new car.

Thank you for the lenghty advice.

southwest713
12-08-2007, 02:14 AM
Where the hell did you hear most used cars have $3-5k in markup? That's a crock of ****. Most used car dealers don't make that around the house, much less on the front end of the deal. $1500-2500 is a safe assumption

i was selling cars for 2 yrs, and our average markup was about 4k. biggest i saw was 1 that made about 8k in the front :greedy:

Ferendon
12-08-2007, 02:22 AM
I personally sold a Harley Davidson F-150 for a $9300 front end, it made almost $14k around the house. It was a cash deal, so we didn't have to get within a certain carry %. It was quite nice. You where on one hell of a lot if you had a $4k average markup. Are you talking about $4k over purchase price, or over TIV?

theCybe
12-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Lots of stuff to consider here. Thanks :)

AllstarE4
12-08-2007, 11:43 AM
Ferendon... I have a friend that was a used car salesman at one of the largest dealerships around Fort Worth. He said their typical markup was 5k. Not trying to call you out, just saying it does happen. I think advice is going to vary based on where someone has sold cars. Most dealership practices are probably about the same, but with anything there are going to be variances.

btdickey99
12-08-2007, 11:51 AM
Ferendon is an idiot

SuperchargedRS
12-08-2007, 06:16 PM
Ferendon is an idiot

x2

Skip01
12-09-2007, 01:23 AM
Hell...sell a car thats semi rare....we had a 18k markup on a GT500 Shelby......allll profit sooo allll money for the salesman...lucky bastard...i think it was a walkup to off showroom....just stupid

it was like 6000 in the salesmen pocket on that one deal

19psi
12-14-2007, 04:48 PM
ferendon +1.
he knows the deal.

DBfan187
12-14-2007, 04:48 PM
they're crooks!

Ignatowski
12-15-2007, 09:23 AM
I have bought alotta cars and trucks in my 40 years
and there are some really great pointers posted here-
The trouble is while most car salesman as sleezy peices of turds there are a few really helpfull ones that want to get you in and out fast with the best deal possible.....
As a consumer and business owner myself some things I might add
are and pretty common sense stuff
ALWAYS buy from a salesman who is reccomeneded to you
or a friend of a friend - seasoned salesman with experience can make **** happen
I wont even talk to the schmuck on the lot...usually they are new,green &
thier inexpeince will make you nuts not too mention the paper work will be all over the place......

Dont be afraid to low ball,cry poverty tell them your interested in another
car at another dealership thats is less optioned out than the one he is selling
and you dont need all the bells and whistles....
and dont be afraid to let the sales guy stew a day while you think it over
be patent.......


If possible show a flash a roll of cash IE Mayweather.....I showed a roll money and had the freekin
owner of the dealership come buy and offer me a coke and a sandwich :cool:
Needless to say I bought my Dooley this was and never spent a nickel of that cash
0 down,0% finance and 8Gs off sticker......plus the sandwich LOL
I might have been able to grab a few more bucks off who knows but everyone
got a fair deal..........

davidfre21
12-16-2007, 10:30 AM
i went to a dealer yesterday to look at a cheap rodeo. The sales man was busy at the time to we BSed with another guy and were playing with the gaurd dog. The salesman comes over and randomly flips on me and my buddy. Saying is goin to kick our asses and even picked up a rock. Dude was nuts...


avoid those dealers.

Ferendon
12-21-2007, 02:59 AM
Ferendon is an idiot
And you are?

x2
I think you're just tired of me calling you out on all of the retarded **** that you type. And you do it a lot. I've never checked, but I hope this place has an ignore list. I deal with too much bullshit elsewhere. But then again, you're good for a laugh.

Hell...sell a car thats semi rare....we had a 18k markup on a GT500 Shelby......allll profit sooo allll money for the salesman...lucky bastard...i think it was a walkup to off showroom....just stupid

it was like 6000 in the salesmen pocket on that one deal
Most dealerships cap the commissions on those cars to $1000. I think Ford even has a cap on them. It's more than $1000, but nowhere near what the full commission would be on a fully market adjusted GT500.


And you can call me an idiot all you want, but I sold cars for quite some time, and I still work with car dealerships every day, and quite a few of them. I live my life in and around the car business, and I deal with more dealerships than just about any salesman will ever work at. Are there people who know the business better than I? Of course. Do either of you? Not by a long shot.

kingNdaCastle08
01-10-2008, 04:49 PM
Car salesmen are sleeze balls. of course there are exceptions to every rule but most would kill their own mother for a sale.

this is true. MANY are. HOWEVER...i have had an extremely pleasant experience with some. i bought a 2004 mustang GT 40th anniv. edition from carmax(lol), and it was extremely easy AND at a good price. just look out for the added lil costs. thats where they make theyre money. tell them to adjust the price so that the TOTAL comes out to what YOU are trying to spend. =D

btdickey99
01-10-2008, 04:52 PM
And you are?

I think you're just tired of me calling you out on all of the retarded **** that you type. And you do it a lot. I've never checked, but I hope this place has an ignore list. I deal with too much bullshit elsewhere. But then again, you're good for a laugh.

Most dealerships cap the commissions on those cars to $1000. I think Ford even has a cap on them. It's more than $1000, but nowhere near what the full commission would be on a fully market adjusted GT500.


And you can call me an idiot all you want, but I sold cars for quite some time, and I still work with car dealerships every day, and quite a few of them. I live my life in and around the car business, and I deal with more dealerships than just about any salesman will ever work at. Are there people who know the business better than I? Of course. Do either of you? Not by a long shot.

most dealers dont cap deals out at 1000 you *******

Ferendon
01-11-2008, 01:50 AM
Every Ford dealer in Texas does, and it's a rule handed down by Ford. It's not EVERY deal, just the Shelby GT and GT500s.