PDA

View Full Version : Birch box construction



cha0
11-26-2007, 07:42 PM
So im looking for something lighter then MDF and less flexable. closes place to me that sells trupan in the midwest is about 2.5 hours away. luckily for me theres a really big lumber yard a few miles from me. they have premium birch plywood, no voids, and its like 11 ply. the 3/4th inch is 35 bucks for a 4x8 sheet.

the question is from what i have read screws dont do anything if you have a good wood glue. so would there be any problem if i used a good glue and just used a brad nailer of finish nailer to tack it all together along with corner clamps? i dont mind using the screws but using a pnumatic nailer and some glue would be SOOO much faster. thanks in advance for the info.

bjfish11
11-26-2007, 07:45 PM
Here is my opinion....

Yes, I understand, glue holds the joints together. Im not going to argue that.

But screws will give a tighter joint while the glue dries than brads will. Thats why I use screws. Sure brads are faster.... but Im a little more concerned with quality than speed.

Just my $.02.

cha0
11-26-2007, 07:47 PM
totally agree on the speed VS quality thats why i asked. i have read numerous places that "screws do nothing when a good glue is used" so i figured hell, if the end result will be the same, why wouldnt you go the faster route.

screws it is...

cha0
11-26-2007, 07:49 PM
BTW, BJ, why the hell are you on line and not finishing up your box and taking pics for us to drool over?!

bjfish11
11-26-2007, 07:50 PM
OH, BTW. Thats a really good price on that Birch if it is truly void free 11 ply. Thats probably right in the range of what you would pay for a sheet of Trupan. Might as well stain that birch ;)

bjfish11
11-26-2007, 07:50 PM
BTW, BJ, why the hell are you on line and not finishing up your box and taking pics for us to drool over?!

LOL, cause Im exhausted... and I have other boxes to work on ATM. Sorry :p:

cha0
11-26-2007, 07:52 PM
yea i thought it was a decent price to. home depots normal birch is 36.99 out by me.

bjfish11
11-26-2007, 07:55 PM
Ive never really compared prices outside of my normal supplier.... so yea... LOL

But for a 5 x 5 sheet of 13 ply BB, it was like $32 or so....

budahbuddy803
11-26-2007, 07:59 PM
i used screws on my first box and it didnt come out so well... maybe because my inexperience. i just have a problem holding the two pieces of wood with glue on them, even after pre-drilling, and then screwing in the screws. Maybe because i used to thick of screws also. I am going to try using glue, air compressed nail gun, and clams this time.

BTW how would i describe the wood clamps people use on here that are very long? I saw a 12" one on sale at home depot of but a longer one. What size do you guys get?

cha0
11-26-2007, 08:00 PM
i just use the corner clamps but thats a slow way to go...

bjfish11
11-26-2007, 08:01 PM
They are "Bar Clamps." Personally, if I were to spend money on clamps, I wouldnt get anything less than 36". And they are really expensive, so I just dont use any. There is really no reason to use clamps and screws, unless you just want to clamp it to get the screws installed, then unclamp and move on.

JimJ
11-26-2007, 08:02 PM
BTW how would i describe the wood clamps people use on here that are very long? I saw a 12" one on sale at home depot of but a longer one. What size do you guys get?

Bar clamps?

I've seen them up to 4-5 feet, beyond that people use pipes with clamp pieces on them, so you can extend the clamps out as long as you need it.

PSturmer
11-26-2007, 08:14 PM
Here is my opinion....

Yes, I understand, glue holds the joints together. Im not going to argue that.

But screws will give a tighter joint while the glue dries than brads will. Thats why I use screws. Sure brads are faster.... but Im a little more concerned with quality than speed.

Just my $.02.

totally agree. a nail gun does not hold it tight as a screw. i have also found that long screws are better. they can hold mdf much tighter without stripping the wood. i currently use about 3 2.5'' screws on an edge about 16'' tall. seems to work very nicely.

PSturmer
11-26-2007, 08:16 PM
wednesday i am actually doing some tests of birch vs. mdf concerning spl. in the evening i will make a thread and post the results. basically i am making 2 identical box's. illuminating all the variables i have control of.

tommyk90
11-26-2007, 08:23 PM
Despite what other people tell you, USE SCREWS.

During my box building spree before finals I forgot to put screws on only ONE EDGE of the box while the rest was all screwed down.

I didn't use the box until the next day and when I did, I learned the hard way that glue alone will NOT hold a box together in my application. The first full tilt burp completely broke that edge of the box.

Some people don't realize exactly how much pressure is building inside a box, in my case about 170 dB worth.

For lower power situations it can do fine, but my 9515 has broken several boxes that were screwed AND glued because it still wasn't strong enough.

I use 1 5/8" coarse threaded screws about every 5-6".

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/tommyk90/PA310186.jpg

cha0
11-26-2007, 08:35 PM
Despite what other people tell you, USE SCREWS.

During my box building spree before finals I forgot to put screws on only ONE EDGE of the box while the rest was all screwed down.

I didn't use the box until the next day and when I did, I learned the hard way that glue alone will NOT hold a box together in my application. The first full tilt burp completely broke that edge of the box.

Some people don't realize exactly how much pressure is building inside a box, in my case about 170 dB worth.

For lower power situations it can do fine, but my 9515 has broken several boxes that were screwed AND glued because it still wasn't strong enough.

I use 1 5/8" coarse threaded screws about every 5-6".

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/tommyk90/PA310186.jpg


i wish i was pushing 170 DBs for daily. granted i would be deff, it would be fun. all im running in this box is 2 9910s and a z1a.

wednesday i am actually doing some tests of birch vs. mdf concerning spl. in the evening i will make a thread and post the results. basically i am making 2 identical box's. illuminating all the variables i have control of.



i think it has been established that MDF is much more flexable then birch. making it pretty ****** for SPL...

tommyk90
11-26-2007, 09:05 PM
i wish i was pushing 170 DBs for daily. granted i would be deff, it would be fun. all im running in this box is 2 9910s and a z1a.




i think it has been established that MDF is much more flexable then birch. making it pretty ****** for SPL...

You're probably doing 160's INSIDE the box. :) That's what I meant by my 170 dB comment. I measured my single 10" box doing a 170.0 inside the box.

Still a LOT of pressure.


Birch (GOOD birch) is known to be stiffer than MDF, while MDF is more dense. Both can work just fine for SPL enclosures and daily driving enclosures.

Lakota
11-26-2007, 10:07 PM
Despite what other people tell you, USE SCREWS.

During my box building spree before finals I forgot to put screws on only ONE EDGE of the box while the rest was all screwed down.

I didn't use the box until the next day and when I did, I learned the hard way that glue alone will NOT hold a box together in my application. The first full tilt burp completely broke that edge of the box.

Some people don't realize exactly how much pressure is building inside a box, in my case about 170 dB worth.

For lower power situations it can do fine, but my 9515 has broken several boxes that were screwed AND glued because it still wasn't strong enough.

I use 1 5/8" coarse threaded screws about every 5-6".

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b78/tommyk90/PA310186.jpg

Send the boxes that you don't want this way:) I could free up some of your clutter.

tommyk90
11-26-2007, 10:11 PM
Send the boxes that you don't want this way:) I could free up some of your clutter.

One of the boxes is out next to the garbage if you want it. :D

cha0
11-26-2007, 10:48 PM
One of the boxes is out next to the garbage if you want it. :D


haha, knowing im so close to your hood, its tempting...

kmanian
11-26-2007, 11:06 PM
If you are looking for the a better situation than screwing into the grain of the ply or MDF I will highly suggest the use of KREG pocket screws and glue. With this type of fastening system you are actually screwing into the layers of the wood at 75 +/- degrees to the screw, so you are not relying on the end grain to hold the screw threads. I would also suggest using "gorilla glue" it expands into the grain and makes a superior bond to common wood glue (wear rubber gloves though)

PSturmer
11-26-2007, 11:20 PM
If you are looking for the a better situation than screwing into the grain of the ply or MDF I will highly suggest the use of KREG pocket screws and glue. With this type of fastening system you are actually screwing into the layers of the wood at 75 +/- degrees to the screw, so you are not relying on the end grain to hold the screw threads. I would also suggest using "gorilla glue" it expands into the grain and makes a superior bond to common wood glue (wear rubber gloves though)

gorilla < titebond

gorilla (the new stronger-faster) < elmers glue stick

and pocket screws do not go deep enough into the wood.

kmanian
11-26-2007, 11:32 PM
gorilla < titebond

gorilla (the new stronger-faster) < elmers glue stick

and pocket screws do not go deep enough into the wood.
I am not sure what you mean by they don't go deep enough into the wood, they go cross grain, you can use screws that are long enough to go straight through the plywood, and finally you are using them in 2 capacities, 1) clamp the wood while the glue cures, 2) as reinforcement for the bond created by the glue. If you have any doubt as to the holding capacity of the system, I will build yo a box to your specs, ship it to you unassembled, you can put it together with the supplied glue, then I defy you to destroy the box with a any sub powered by any amp.
Secondly, how long of a screw are you putting into MDF and how often are you putting them. because of you penetrate MDF with to large of a screw and to often of an interval you hav comprimised the strength, you will split it apart.

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 12:02 AM
I am not sure what you mean by they don't go deep enough into the wood, they go cross grain, you can use screws that are long enough to go straight through the plywood, and finally you are using them in 2 capacities, 1) clamp the wood while the glue cures, 2) as reinforcement for the bond created by the glue. If you have any doubt as to the holding capacity of the system, I will build yo a box to your specs, ship it to you unassembled, you can put it together with the supplied glue, then I defy you to destroy the box with a any sub powered by any amp.
Secondly, how long of a screw are you putting into MDF and how often are you putting them. because of you penetrate MDF with to large of a screw and to often of an interval you hav comprimised the strength, you will split it apart.

Wood glue has been shown to be superior over anything else when bonding wood.

After all, its WOOD GLUE.

Wood glue causes a chemical reaction that actually bonds the wood pieces to each other, whereas gorilla glue (and other types) merely have a surface bond.

Use wood glue for enclosures. Period.

miker
11-27-2007, 12:03 AM
Might be a good idea to dip the screws in gorilla glue... B/c of the expanding effect...

Any thoughts?

Also a way to hold up the side panels is to put the base down on a large piece of wood, then place boards tightly around the wood, and screw them down. Then cut out a piece to brace across the middle. Once you get the main sides up the port should be pretty easy to finish.

kmanian
11-27-2007, 12:13 AM
Wood glue has been shown to be superior over anything else when bonding wood.

After all, its WOOD GLUE.

Wood glue causes a chemical reaction that actually bonds the wood pieces to each other, whereas gorilla glue (and other types) merely have a surface bond.

Use wood glue for enclosures. Period.

I agree with you in theory, however when using MDF typically guys building boxes do not clean off the residue (powder) cutting the MDF. the gorilla glue tends to work around this powder enveloping it and bonding to the fibers that are firmly attached to the panel. Also with standard wood glue, guys tend to run a bead of glue on the end grain of the cut, they do not typically spread a layer over the entire cut end of the wood, therefore they are not receiving the full benifit of the chemical bond, with the expanding effect of a poly glue you acheve a much larger adhesion base. If "wood glue is used properly, it is a great adhesive, it needs to be placed across the entire area that is being bonded, with the dust from the cut being removed prior to the placement of the glue. I am saying this out of practice, not theory, I have been a professional carpenter for 20 years, once again I will be willing to back up any recomendations that I make with a sample as proof.

theory and the real world are two totally different things.:)

Towlieee
11-27-2007, 12:14 AM
Wood glue has been shown to be superior over anything else when bonding wood.

After all, its WOOD GLUE.

Wood glue causes a chemical reaction that actually bonds the wood pieces to each other, whereas gorilla glue (and other types) merely have a surface bond.

Use wood glue for enclosures. Period.

Just out of curiosity, does liquid nails pass as wood glue?

I always just used liquid nails to bond wood, and in the corners inside

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 12:17 AM
Just out of curiosity, does liquid nails pass as wood glue?

I always just used liquid nails to bond wood, and in the corners inside

liquid nails is not wood glue.

miker
11-27-2007, 12:20 AM
Use lots of glue clean up later? To ensure you get a good even layer.

Also the screws "pull" the wood together very nicely.. I'm thinking (haven't tried) that nails would more hold it together, not pull it together, but if you it clamped really tight nails and glue might be OK.

kmanian
11-27-2007, 12:23 AM
Just out of curiosity, does liquid nails pass as wood glue?

I always just used liquid nails to bond wood, and in the corners inside

The problem with using construction adhesive in joining panels is that you are using a adhesive that has body, it is creating a space between the 2 substraights that is filled with the adhesive, the adhesive is then the weak spot, the adhesive it self has a very low tensel strength, so once again this is in theory, so depending on the service it is going to see it may work just fine. I will say that using it in the corners of the interior of the box is adding strength to it as apposed to latex caulk.

donpisto
11-27-2007, 12:27 AM
OH, BTW. Thats a really good price on that Birch if it is truly void free 11 ply. Thats probably right in the range of what you would pay for a sheet of Trupan. Might as well stain that birch ;)

x2. Grade A birch at that price is insane. Here at home depot by my house they have grade B or C for about the same price.

Towlieee
11-27-2007, 12:28 AM
The problem with using construction adhesive in joining panels is that you are using a adhesive that has body, it is creating a space between the 2 substraights that is filled with the adhesive, the adhesive is then the weak spot, the adhesive it self has a very low tensel strength, so once again this is in theory, so depending on the service it is going to see it may work just fine. I will say that using it in the corners of the interior of the box is adding strength to it as apposed to latex caulk.

Alright thats good to know

I'll definitely try wood glue on my next install, and keep the liquid nails for the corners

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 12:41 PM
Why are people even arguing about this? Wood glue is the best to use. Period. The end.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 12:42 PM
Alright thats good to know

I'll definitely try wood glue on my next install, and keep the liquid nails for the corners:confused: Why would you even use liquid nails for the corners? It doesn't do anything just sitting there by itself. If you want to use a sealant, then use...a sealant! Silicone sealant is all you should use.

mlstrass
11-27-2007, 12:54 PM
The Trupan I buy up in Zion, comes from a lumber yard in Chicago. Touhy Lumber in Zion is the place I buy it. He could probably put you in touch with the place in Chicago...

bumpincrv
11-27-2007, 01:01 PM
I dont see how glue holds better than screws i have used titebond and screws and it still broke the bond and broke the screws idk is there a beter glue i should be using

Lakota
11-27-2007, 01:14 PM
I dont see how glue holds better than screws i have used titebond and screws and it still broke the bond and broke the screws idk is there a beter glue i should be using

Sounds like the bond wasn't very good, i.e. the glue didn't cure correctly or there was a gap. I take all the screws out of my boxes when they glue has dried and I've never had a box come apart.

tsenfw
11-27-2007, 01:32 PM
I asked the same thing as the op like 1 month ago and everyone just said titebond and brad nails. Now everyone is saying woodglue and screws lol.

Well, I built my box with titebond III, mdf, and 2" brad nails. I used corner clamps and reg clamps really tight everywhere I nailed. It seems really solid, I'm sure it'll hold up for a daily beater. The titebond mdf bonding strength really surprised me.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 01:38 PM
I dont see how glue holds better than screws i have used titebond and screws and it still broke the bond and broke the screws idk is there a beter glue i should be usingBecause screws don't actually hold anything. They just keep the wood panels close to one another, but that isn't a bond. Wood glue literally creates an emulsion of wood fibers at the joint so that when it dries, it's stronger than the wood it's bonding itself. It's much the same as bone density. Your bones are strong, but are relatively soft and fragile. If you break a bone, the new groth there, aka the bond between the two bits of old bone will be stronger than before when you broke it. The same applies to wood glue bonds. I even recycle screws when I'm building a lot of enclosures at one time and don't feel like buying more screws. I'll assemble a box with screws and glue, then once i'm finished, take out the screws and start the next one with the same screws.

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 01:41 PM
I have to use screws because my cuts ****. :laugh:

bumpincrv
11-27-2007, 01:42 PM
yea my box never came apart but it did break screws and rattle but now i have a new box built wit hscrews and titebond and threaded rod

sqhertz
11-27-2007, 02:44 PM
glue , clamp , pre drill , screw , unclamp and move on? i may have to try this out. im sure ill mess up pre drilling the first couple times but it seems itll save alot of time waiting for glue to dry some before moving on. hm.

audioarsonal
11-27-2007, 02:57 PM
I put a little dab of TBII in the screw hole before I screw it down.Just a little extra insurance.

sqhertz
11-27-2007, 03:03 PM
but thats all there is to it? or do you pre drill before glueing?

miker
11-27-2007, 03:06 PM
You NEED to pre-drill w/ MDF... Even when screwing two scrap pieces together... It just doesn't work unless you pre-drill...

Just make draw a line across where that you want all your holes on... Pre-drilling is easier than drilling the screws in...

audioarsonal
11-27-2007, 03:08 PM
That is after I pre-drill with counter sink I put in a dab of glue.As well as gluing the edges not just glue in the holes sorry.

sqhertz
11-27-2007, 03:08 PM
You NEED to pre-drill w/ MDF... Even when screwing two scrap pieces together... It just doesn't work unless you pre-drill...

Just make draw a line across where that you want all your holes on... Pre-drilling is easier than drilling the screws in...


i know that.
im asking do you pre drill before the glue or while the clamps are holding the glued pieces together?
i always just used clamps alone, so i dont know. :confused:

miker
11-27-2007, 03:10 PM
OHHHH. Gotchya.

He's talking about EXTRA glue. Yes of course still glue the entire edge together, but he ALSO puts glue on the screws... Holds them in tighter, and would make it more airtight.

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 03:14 PM
You can still make a good box by simply using ONLY screws through the entire box.. then sealing all tha edges/corners w/glue.. (Liquid Nails is my preference)

& no, I don't CARE what kind of glue YOU use or what kind of glue YOU think is better. :fyi:

All this talk about screws backing themselves out & the bond between the glue & wood breaking.. is bullshit.
You know how hard it is to pull that **** apart? Yeah.. your sub isn't going to do it.

Only thing I've EVER seen like that is a sub backing it's mounting screws out..
Or stratusrt01 had a folded horn that he only used glue & brad nails.. & the side of the compression chamber came off..

audioarsonal
11-27-2007, 03:15 PM
Correct this is just a little insurance that everything is thight and well bonded.I don't think everyone does it but hey can't hurt anything.

lilmaniac2
11-27-2007, 03:19 PM
You can still make a good box by simply using ONLY screws through the entire box.. then sealing all tha edges/corners w/glue.. (Liquid Nails is my preference)

& no, I don't CARE what kind of glue YOU use or what kind of glue YOU think is better. :fyi:

All this talk about screws backing themselves out & the bond between the glue & wood breaking.. is bullshit.
You know how hard it is to pull that **** apart? Yeah.. your sub isn't going to do it.

Only thing I've EVER seen like that is a sub backing it's mounting screws out..
Or stratusrt01 had a folded horn that he only used glue & brad nails.. & the side of the compression chamber came off..

Wrong. You build ****** boxes if you build em that way. I know thats how I started building em. I finally moved on to wood glue and it makes a world of difference :)

audioarsonal
11-27-2007, 03:21 PM
Most failures are from improper bracing which causes joint failure due to unwanted vibrations.

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Wrong. You build ****** boxes if you build em that way. I know thats how I started building em. I finally moved on to wood glue and it makes a world of difference :)

I don't build my boxes like that..

BUT my past 2 boxes (DD 3515 & HD3 15") I've built w/only screws, no glue.. then Liquid Nailed it to seal it inside..

Not a single problem. :)

NO air leaks.. at ALL.. can't really deny it.. or disagree, I've had good luck with it..

lilmaniac2
11-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Does it work, Yes.

Would it work if i ran 8 gauge power wire to my saz 3000ds. Sure, Is it optimal of coarse not :)

audioarsonal
11-27-2007, 03:23 PM
And I think someone did a test and found wood glue to be far superior to liquid nails(the choice of beginners).

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 03:32 PM
You can still make a good box by simply using ONLY screws through the entire box.. then sealing all tha edges/corners w/glue.. (Liquid Nails is my preference)

& no, I don't CARE what kind of glue YOU use or what kind of glue YOU think is better. :fyi:

All this talk about screws backing themselves out & the bond between the glue & wood breaking.. is bullshit.
You know how hard it is to pull that **** apart? Yeah.. your sub isn't going to do it.

Only thing I've EVER seen like that is a sub backing it's mounting screws out..
Or stratusrt01 had a folded horn that he only used glue & brad nails.. & the side of the compression chamber came off..

Sure you can do that, but what's the point?

For the money you spent on liquid nails you could buy a TON more wood glue and use that along with the screws.

Wood glue is way cheaper than liquid nails.

And fyi, I have broken a joint that was screwed AND glued because the box flexed too much. A little threaded rod took care of that. :)

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 05:14 PM
You NEED to pre-drill w/ MDF... Even when screwing two scrap pieces together... It just doesn't work unless you pre-drill...

Just make draw a line across where that you want all your holes on... Pre-drilling is easier than drilling the screws in...It works just fine if you don't predrill. It is just more difficult and more tedious.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 05:16 PM
You can still make a good box by simply using ONLY screws through the entire box.. then sealing all tha edges/corners w/glue.. (Liquid Nails is my preference)

& no, I don't CARE what kind of glue YOU use or what kind of glue YOU think is better. :fyi:

All this talk about screws backing themselves out & the bond between the glue & wood breaking.. is bullshit.
You know how hard it is to pull that **** apart? Yeah.. your sub isn't going to do it.

Only thing I've EVER seen like that is a sub backing it's mounting screws out..
Or stratusrt01 had a folded horn that he only used glue & brad nails.. & the side of the compression chamber came off..Don't ever give advice to this forum on this topic. You are blatantly wrong, and there are published articles by people from woodworkers to materials engineers that state that wood glue is the strongest way to bond wood.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 05:18 PM
And I think someone did a test and found wood glue to be far superior to liquid nails(the choice of beginners).It is stronger than anything else besides wood-wood joints (dowels, dovetails, biscuits, etc).

miker
11-27-2007, 05:31 PM
It works just fine if you don't predrill. It is just more difficult and more tedious.

I guess if you can hold it down... It's hard to be accurate while pushing down with allot of force..

But I guess your right, it's possible, just not ideal.


Also he was NOT arguing that wood glue was not the strongest.. He was arguing that you don't NEED wood glue to make a decent box.

kmanian
11-27-2007, 06:11 PM
Don't ever give advice to this forum on this topic. You are blatantly wrong, and there are published articles by people from woodworkers to materials engineers that state that wood glue is the strongest way to bond wood.

This is freakin rediculous, I can tell you personally, and by Tommys own admission, that in the real world alot of guys are not making good cuts. wood glue is onlt superior when there is wood to wood contact, if there is not wood to wood contact you have negated the benifits of it, therefore a adhesive that fills the voids where there is no actual wood contact is going to give you far superior bonding. On top of that if you agr trying to bridge the gap with wood glue, yo end up with a very brittel joint, because the wood glue is extremely brittel once dried. So unless you are a seasoned woodworker/carpenter/scientest, back off of others with the absolute, holyer than thou crap

kmanian
11-27-2007, 06:15 PM
:confused: Why would you even use liquid nails for the corners? It doesn't do anything just sitting there by itself. If you want to use a sealant, then use...a sealant! Silicone sealant is all you should use.

Well that makes a sealent, try to paint it, what is your point? liguid nails will do the same job of sealing with superior adheasion

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 06:23 PM
This is freakin rediculous, I can tell you personally, and by Tommys own admission, that in the real world alot of guys are not making good cuts. wood glue is onlt superior when there is wood to wood contact, if there is not wood to wood contact you have negated the benifits of it, therefore a adhesive that fills the voids where there is no actual wood contact is going to give you far superior bonding. On top of that if you agr trying to bridge the gap with wood glue, yo end up with a very brittel joint, because the wood glue is extremely brittel once dried. So unless you are a seasoned woodworker/carpenter/scientest, back off of others with the absolute, holyer than thou crap

Well actually, the reason I had mentioned bad cuts was not to support the use of liquid nails or anything else, but to state that SCREWS and glue is the better way to go.

Screws actually PULL the wood together if you have bad cuts so the wood glue can make a strong bond. Unless you have a LOT of clamps or make perfect cuts, screws are 100&#37; necessary IMO.

cha0
11-27-2007, 06:30 PM
****, never had a thread go 5 pages.

im going to get the pics of my birch project soon with screws and WOOD glue...

back to your regular scheduled argument.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 06:30 PM
Well that makes a sealent, try to paint it, what is your point? liguid nails will do the same job of sealing with superior adheasionWhen liquid nails dries on something other than a joint, aka just left open, it's very hard and flaky and does a **** poor job of sealing anything. Silicone moves into the smallest spaces and creates a soft sealant that cannot be removed from these holes even if the main bulk of it is removed.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 06:32 PM
This is freakin rediculous, I can tell you personally, and by Tommys own admission, that in the real world alot of guys are not making good cuts. wood glue is onlt superior when there is wood to wood contact, if there is not wood to wood contact you have negated the benifits of it, therefore a adhesive that fills the voids where there is no actual wood contact is going to give you far superior bonding. On top of that if you agr trying to bridge the gap with wood glue, yo end up with a very brittel joint, because the wood glue is extremely brittel once dried. So unless you are a seasoned woodworker/carpenter/scientest, back off of others with the absolute, holyer than thou crap:confused: I couldn't care less if you can't cut worth a ****, that isn't really relevant. If you can't get a usable cut (clamping and screws can take even 1/4" mishap cuts into glueable cuts), no adhesive will save you anyway as the joint isn't strong, it's just airtight. In the end, it's still going to fail, so I ask you, what is YOUR point?

kmanian
11-27-2007, 06:32 PM
****, never had a thread go 5 pages.

im going to get the pics of my birch project soon with screws and WOOD glue...

back to your regular scheduled argument.dude I actually laughed out loud. that was great.

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 06:37 PM
When liquid nails dries on something other than a joint, aka just left open, it's very hard and flaky and does a **** poor job of sealing anything. Silicone moves into the smallest spaces and creates a soft sealant that cannot be removed from these holes even if the main bulk of it is removed.

You're local to me, should I bring you a box I've built & show you how "hard & flaky" my Liquid Nails on my boxes?
Yeah, you're wrong about that man.. you may be right in your own little way, but you can't tell me Liquid Nails doesn't seal.. because it does. :fyi:

http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductListing.do

Tell me Liquid Nails doesn't have what I need to build a box.. ;)

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 06:38 PM
Liquid Nails: Wood - http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductDetails.do?productId=56
Liquid Nails: Premium Sealant: http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductDetails.do?productId=13

Hmmm.. weird?

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 06:42 PM
You're local to me, should I bring you a box I've built & show you how "hard & flaky" my Liquid Nails on my boxes?
Yeah, you're wrong about that man.. you may be right in your own little way, but you can't tell me Liquid Nails doesn't seal.. because it does. :fyi:

http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductListing.do

Tell me Liquid Nails doesn't have what I need to build a box.. ;)Are you all really this dense? The question isn't whether or not liquid nails or gorilla glue works for an enclosure, it's why the heavenly **** you would even use it? It's over 2x more expensive, less effective and messier. You don't have to preach to me either, as I've used every adhesive in the book before actually testing and reading and realizing that wood glue is the best thing for enclosure bonds. I don't even see why this is a discussion. Also, liquid nails is not a sealant either, it's an adhesive. It doesn't have the properties of a true sealant, which is again cheaper to buy, so why not get it also? If you can't make a good cut, an expanding or ultra-thick adhesive won't help you anyway as it isn't bonding the wood together, it's holding itself in between the spaces in the wood which is just as effective as screws alone (aka weak).

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 06:43 PM
Liquid Nails: Wood - http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductDetails.do?productId=56
Liquid Nails: Premium Sealant: http://www.liquidnails.com/ViewProductDetails.do?productId=13

Hmmm.. weird?Are you actually going to sit there and tell me you were talking about liquid nails BRAND of sealant, not just liquid nails wood adhesive?

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 06:46 PM
Are you all really this dense? The question isn't whether or not liquid nails or gorilla glue works for an enclosure, it's why the heavenly **** you would even use it? It's over 2x more expensive, less effective and messier. You don't have to preach to me either, as I've used every adhesive in the book before actually testing and reading and realizing that wood glue is the best thing for enclosure bonds. I don't even see why this is a discussion. Also, liquid nails is not a sealant either, it's an adhesive. It doesn't have the properties of a true sealant, which is again cheaper to buy, so why not get it also? If you can't make a good cut, an expanding or ultra-thick adhesive won't help you anyway as it isn't bonding the wood together, it's holding itself in between the spaces in the wood which is just as effective as screws alone (aka weak).

1.) I don't know what kind of Liquid Nails you use, but the kind I use.. does NOT expand.
2.) TiteBond/other wood glues are very runny.. & not easy to use.. Liquid Nails is thicker & easier to put where you want it.. (aka running beads down any/all cracks/crevices due to a bad cut or just to seal it)
3.) If you're so god damned sure on the subject, then why are you still talking to us, non-worthy, non-speaker-box-glue Gods, like yourself?

:)

ballstothewall
11-27-2007, 06:46 PM
The amount of misinformation in this thread is just staggering. :)

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 06:46 PM
Are you actually going to sit there and tell me you were talking about liquid nails BRAND of sealant, not just liquid nails wood adhesive?

No, you said Liquid Nails isn't a sealant.. & I posted that link to show you they had a sealant. :rolleyes:

J31Rob
11-27-2007, 06:47 PM
I've over the thread..

PV Audio is a hard head..
Kind of like Cot Jones, in the way you can't tell him JL isn't the way to go..

So I'll leave it at that.

Thank you & come again.

lilmaniac2
11-27-2007, 06:48 PM
I think its the other way around rob :)

kmanian
11-27-2007, 06:50 PM
:confused: I couldn't care less if you can't cut worth a ****, that isn't really relevant. If you can't get a usable cut (clamping and screws can take even 1/4" mishap cuts into glueable cuts), no adhesive will save you anyway as the joint isn't strong, it's just airtight. In the end, it's still going to fail, so I ask you, what is YOUR point?

My point is that if you are using screws and clamps to bridge a 1/4" gap you have got stress that is going to end up in failure anyways, I am speaking about the shi&&y cuts that wobble back and forthe, the kind that most people make that don't have a 10-12" cabinet grade saw, If you can tell me that you have total contact with your screws and clamps, I will say that you do have the best bond. I am however going to stick with my opinion that with out extremely good wood to wood contact, yo are better off going with somthing that will fill the gaps, (poly glue) I will also point out that I can build yo a box that has no glue or nails that I defy you to be able to "blow it apart". my point here is that with proper joinery you dont need glue or nails, with good carpentry glue will suffice by itself, with average carpentry, glue and screws will be necessary.
There are guys on here that dont have the skills that you may posess, and they certinly don't have the post count, They are asking for advice and you seem to ony have one stance on the subject. there are other options. get off the high horse.

kmanian
11-27-2007, 06:50 PM
:confused: I couldn't care less if you can't cut worth a ****, that isn't really relevant. If you can't get a usable cut (clamping and screws can take even 1/4" mishap cuts into glueable cuts), no adhesive will save you anyway as the joint isn't strong, it's just airtight. In the end, it's still going to fail, so I ask you, what is YOUR point?

My point is that if you are using screws and clamps to bridge a 1/4" gap you have got stress that is going to end up in failure anyways, I am speaking about the shi&&y cuts that wobble back and forthe, the kind that most people make that don't have a 10-12" cabinet grade saw, If you can tell me that you have total contact with your screws and clamps, I will say that you do have the best bond. I am however going to stick with my opinion that with out extremely good wood to wood contact, yo are better off going with somthing that will fill the gaps, (poly glue) I will also point out that I can build yo a box that has no glue or nails that I defy you to be able to "blow it apart". my point here is that with proper joinery you dont need glue or nails, with good carpentry glue will suffice by itself, with average carpentry, glue and screws will be necessary.
There are guys on here that dont have the skills that you may posess, and they certinly don't have the post count, They are asking for advice and you seem to ony have one stance on the subject. there are other options. get off the high horse.

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 06:51 PM
Man did this thread turn into a clusterf*ck.


Use screws and wood glue. It's cheap and effective. I don't see any reason why you should waste more money on liquid nails or any other type of adhesive.

A $5 bottle of wood glue will last you 5-10 boxes depending on size. Liquid nails on the other hand, you'll be lucky to get 2-3 boxes out of an $8 tube. Sure, it's easier to work with since it's not as runny, but in the end you're just wasting money on a less superior adhesive.

teamsubgopoof
11-27-2007, 06:54 PM
I've used liquid nails before as a wood glue, because I either ran out, or didn't want to take the time to go find it

I almost ALWAYS fill joints with liquid nails to make sure everything is sealed off.

I use wood glue and screws on mdf/birch, don't usually pre drill unless the enclosure isn't covered, then I pre drill and counter sink.

Use wood glue on wood to wood, and run a bead of liquid nails inside the seams of the enclosure, i don't use it to help adhesion, i use it to make sure i'm 100&#37; sealed off except where I want it not to be =)

bjfish11
11-27-2007, 06:59 PM
LOL. Everything you need to know about box building is right here.... :laugh: :rolleyes: :confused:

sqhertz
11-27-2007, 08:35 PM
i still dont think i got an exact answer.

glue , clamp , pre drill/screw , unclamp and move on? so your drilling into wet glue? or another way?

bjfish11
11-27-2007, 08:40 PM
Yes you can do it like that. I glue, predrill, screw and move on... Same thing, only no clamps.

sqhertz
11-27-2007, 08:48 PM
ah , i see. ill have to try that out. my cuts are not ever perfect so i may need to clamp to get the wood set straight. next box im def going to give it a try.

tommyk90
11-27-2007, 08:52 PM
i still dont think i got an exact answer.

glue , clamp , pre drill/screw , unclamp and move on? so your drilling into wet glue? or another way?

Thats the exact way I build my boxes.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 09:13 PM
i still dont think i got an exact answer.

glue , clamp , pre drill/screw , unclamp and move on? so your drilling into wet glue? or another way?Exactly how I do it.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 09:15 PM
My point is that if you are using screws and clamps to bridge a 1/4" gap you have got stress that is going to end up in failure anyways, I am speaking about the shi&&y cuts that wobble back and forthe, the kind that most people make that don't have a 10-12" cabinet grade saw, If you can tell me that you have total contact with your screws and clamps, I will say that you do have the best bond. I am however going to stick with my opinion that with out extremely good wood to wood contact, yo are better off going with somthing that will fill the gaps, (poly glue) I will also point out that I can build yo a box that has no glue or nails that I defy you to be able to "blow it apart". my point here is that with proper joinery you dont need glue or nails, with good carpentry glue will suffice by itself, with average carpentry, glue and screws will be necessary.
There are guys on here that dont have the skills that you may posess, and they certinly don't have the post count, They are asking for advice and you seem to ony have one stance on the subject. there are other options. get off the high horse.You think I'm on a high horse? Do you even know who I am (or who I used to be?)? I used to build boxes every way BUT the right way, so please, I am probably more experienced than anyone on this website in knowing how NOT to build an enclosure. So before you think I'm just spouting off facts I read in a magazine, I have built numerous enclosures using the methods advocated here, and I can tell you from personal experience, wood glue is second to none. I used to think that a .5" gap was fixable with sealant, for christ's sake. :laugh:

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 09:17 PM
I've over the thread..

PV Audio is a hard head..
Kind of like Cot Jones, in the way you can't tell him JL isn't the way to go..

So I'll leave it at that.

Thank you & come again.:laugh: I have done everything you've said for over a year, which is why I can say that what I'm saying now is better. You really should look at some of my old enclosures before you tell me I must make perfect cuts or always have exact measurements.

PV Audio
11-27-2007, 09:19 PM
My point is that if you are using screws and clamps to bridge a 1/4" gap you have got stress that is going to end up in failure anyways, I am speaking about the shi&&y cuts that wobble back and forthe, the kind that most people make that don't have a 10-12" cabinet grade saw, If you can tell me that you have total contact with your screws and clamps, I will say that you do have the best bond. I am however going to stick with my opinion that with out extremely good wood to wood contact, yo are better off going with somthing that will fill the gaps, (poly glue) I will also point out that I can build yo a box that has no glue or nails that I defy you to be able to "blow it apart". my point here is that with proper joinery you dont need glue or nails, with good carpentry glue will suffice by itself, with average carpentry, glue and screws will be necessary.
There are guys on here that dont have the skills that you may posess, and they certinly don't have the post count, They are asking for advice and you seem to ony have one stance on the subject. there are other options. get off the high horse.I still don't see how you can possibly think this is true. Glue and nails is EXACTLY what a joint has. How could you have one without them? :wow:

mobeious
11-27-2007, 09:34 PM
guys come on... if u want to build a box make sure u have the tools to do it and the know how for example, make sure u have a good table saw with a good fence.. hince no gaps in wood no need for "sealants or what ever yall are talkin about" make sure u have 2 drills 1 for predrill other for screws and one last tool... the **** common sense not to use liquid nail, gorilla glue, or anything other then WOODGLUE if u dont meet the requirements above contact ur local CA.com forum for a box builder

kmanian
11-28-2007, 12:10 AM
Are you all really this dense? The question isn't whether or not liquid nails or gorilla glue works for an enclosure, it's why the heavenly **** you would even use it? It's over 2x more expensive, less effective and messier. You don't have to preach to me either, as I've used every adhesive in the book before actually testing and reading and realizing that wood glue is the best thing for enclosure bonds. I don't even see why this is a discussion. Also, liquid nails is not a sealant either, it's an adhesive. It doesn't have the properties of a true sealant, which is again cheaper to buy, so why not get it also? If you can't make a good cut, an expanding or ultra-thick adhesive won't help you anyway as it isn't bonding the wood together, it's holding itself in between the spaces in the wood which is just as effective as screws alone (aka weak).

hey,
boy you are really the guro of all things wood. your theory works, in practice your argunent has alot to be desired. I am a master carpenter with 20 years experiance, I know what I am talking about. I can build you a box that has nothing holding it toghther other than the wood itself and some cheap *** latex caulk for the interior joints, I will shipp it to you for you to do your tests to, I defy you to destroy it with any woofer and Amp combo. I can also build you a box that is pocket screwed and Ploy glued, and I give you the same challenge.
these guys that are conversing with you have a good grasp on how to get it done, they may or may not have all the skill you have, and they almost certainly don't have the post count, however they do have some skills. I think you need to get off the high horse for a while. without a doubt unless you have proper joinery with massive amounts of wood to wood contact, there is more than enough room to argue that PLOY glues and construction adhesive have major merrit.
The construction industry was introduced to construction adhesive (aka liquid nails) not because wood glue dosen't work, rather in the real world the joinery between materials in the field is less than perfect. there for a high viscosity adhesive has found itself a place in the industry. Unless you have a really nice table saw and the skill to use it, you probably are not going to be able to get cuts that are considered proper joinery, the joints will have voids in them that will be filled with standard wood glue, which is very brittel. when you have these kind of juints, they will more than likely fail under the pressures of car audio. there are products that address this lack of presision (POLY glues ...) If yo have good cuts, that have been cleaned, you are correct that wood glue is superior. I do however question how many cust are "good"

IgnoreMe
11-28-2007, 02:59 AM
here is why i abandoned liquid nails (after i defended it for soooo long).

recently my buddy took apart a box that i built for him for his 15" xxx. the box lasted for quite some time, but since he was selling the sub, he took it out. then he took screws out of the box joints (i told him the joints would be stronger than the mdf)...and the ****ing thing fell apart. no pressure, no force. just pulled the screws out and it fell apart. given this was after about 1.5 years or so of having it in the car, but the fact is...it fell apart and the only thing holding it together was the screws...never again will i use liquid nails to build a box.

Sleepy_Jr
11-28-2007, 05:29 AM
Trupan, screws, and carpenter glue

cha0
11-28-2007, 06:01 AM
kmanian ever herd of NP1? i got into industrial construction about 2 years ago. being 19 and arrogant my boss told me about this ****. he said if you put a small bead of it on something, **** up and realize its not where you wanted it after it dried it wasnt comming off. well i was like yea yea whatever. well he was right. this **** sticks and DOES NOT come off. first time i had to remove it i was prying with a 3 foot long prybar for hours.

not that this has ANYTHING to do with this thread but hey, does most of this?

just wondering if you ever had any experience with it. **** even says on the side of the tube something along the lines of "for experts only..."

mobeious
11-28-2007, 06:29 AM
NP1 is a sonoborn caulking still not made to joint wood

kmanian
11-28-2007, 06:45 AM
here is why i abandoned liquid nails (after i defended it for soooo long).

recently my buddy took apart a box that i built for him for his 15" xxx. the box lasted for quite some time, but since he was selling the sub, he took it out. then he took screws out of the box joints (i told him the joints would be stronger than the mdf)...and the ****ing thing fell apart. no pressure, no force. just pulled the screws out and it fell apart. given this was after about 1.5 years or so of having it in the car, but the fact is...it fell apart and the only thing holding it together was the screws...never again will i use liquid nails to build a box.

Hey, you chin must have hit the floor, anyways I totally agree, loquid nails isn't the perfect answer, infact within the liquid nails family there are many choices, som better than others, but I will bring up the point that guys are saying that the screws do nothing, it seems that the screws were the only thing doing somthing in your case.

kmanian
11-28-2007, 06:47 AM
and once again, I agree that wood glue is the best thing, however, with ****** cuts you negate the benifits.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 09:48 AM
and once again, I agree that wood glue is the best thing, however, with ****** cuts you negate the benifits.We'll have to agree to disagree then. I still stand by wood glue for any box building application, because the glue you use cannot fix bad cuts. There are so few situations where the cuts will be so off that you can't even bond them, in which case, you'd re-cut anyway.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 09:50 AM
hey,
boy you are really the guro of all things wood. your theory works, in practice your argunent has alot to be desired. I am a master carpenter with 20 years experiance, I know what I am talking about. I can build you a box that has nothing holding it toghther other than the wood itself and some cheap *** latex caulk for the interior joints, I will shipp it to you for you to do your tests to, I defy you to destroy it with any woofer and Amp combo. I can also build you a box that is pocket screwed and Ploy glued, and I give you the same challenge.
these guys that are conversing with you have a good grasp on how to get it done, they may or may not have all the skill you have, and they almost certainly don't have the post count, however they do have some skills. I think you need to get off the high horse for a while. without a doubt unless you have proper joinery with massive amounts of wood to wood contact, there is more than enough room to argue that PLOY glues and construction adhesive have major merrit.
The construction industry was introduced to construction adhesive (aka liquid nails) not because wood glue dosen't work, rather in the real world the joinery between materials in the field is less than perfect. there for a high viscosity adhesive has found itself a place in the industry. Unless you have a really nice table saw and the skill to use it, you probably are not going to be able to get cuts that are considered proper joinery, the joints will have voids in them that will be filled with standard wood glue, which is very brittel. when you have these kind of juints, they will more than likely fail under the pressures of car audio. there are products that address this lack of presision (POLY glues ...) If yo have good cuts, that have been cleaned, you are correct that wood glue is superior. I do however question how many cust are "good"If anything, the fact that I am NOT that great of an enclosure builder compared to some people here, but still advocate wood glue should be more significant.

And again, if a cut is so bad that you can't bond it, you shouldn't be using that panel anyway. You're just introducing preventable weakness into the enclosure, which would only have a band-aid on it by using a different adhesive.

baseballer1100
11-28-2007, 09:51 AM
This is probably the dumbest thread ever.

baseballer1100
11-28-2007, 09:52 AM
If anything, the fact that I am NOT that great of an enclosure builder compared to some people here, but still advocate wood glue should be more significant.

And again, if a cut is so bad that you can't bond it, you shouldn't be using that panel anyway. You're just introducing preventable weakness into the enclosure, which would only have a band-aid on it by using a different adhesive.

Don't worry about not being the best builder. At least you can spell..

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 09:53 AM
I think the curious part of this thread is that the people who call me arrogant don't realize that I've built an enclosure every way they're describing and can make objective comparisons.

baseballer1100
11-28-2007, 09:56 AM
What I don't understand is how is liquid nails, gorilla glue, etc. Easier to use then say wood glue?

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 09:57 AM
I think the curious part of this thread is that the people who call me arrogant don't realize that I've built an enclosure every way they're describing and can make objective comparisons.

It's not even part us thinking you're arrogant, it's the fact that you ACT arrogant about your knowledge rather than just simply stating your facts/opinions & hearing our's out, as well.

I've used Liquid Nails & TiteBond I/II/III & I prefer Liquid Nails.. it seals very well, it bonds very well, not neccessarily on MDF, because MDF is NOT wood..
Birch, poppler and/or any other plywood w/grains, rather than a smooth surface, work quite well with Liquid Nails: Wood.

I didn't wanna post in here again because you have a "never wrong" complex it seems..

But yeah, I'll agree to disagree w/you as well..

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 09:59 AM
What I don't understand is how is liquid nails, gorilla glue, etc. Easier to use then say wood glue?

Why do people keep comparing Liquid Nails & Gorilla Glue?

Liquid Nails = caulk.
Gorilla Glue = expanding GLUE.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:03 AM
It's not even part us thinking you're arrogant, it's the fact that you ACT arrogant about your knowledge rather than just simply stating your facts/opinions & hearing our's out, as well.

I've used Liquid Nails & TiteBond I/II/III & I prefer Liquid Nails.. it seals very well, it bonds very well, not neccessarily on MDF, because MDF is NOT wood..
Birch, poppler and/or any other plywood w/grains, rather than a smooth surface, work quite well with Liquid Nails: Wood.

I didn't wanna post in here again because you have a "never wrong" complex it seems..

But yeah, I'll agree to disagree w/you as well..You know why I have a never wrong complex about wood glue? Because I used to think EXACTLY like you did, until I actually tested, not used, but actually tested what I was preaching. And you know what happened? I was blatantly wrong. Wood glue beat everything hands down. Therefore, I don't feel bad in the least in sounding arrogant about something that I used to believe what you do about. So if you think I'm arrogant, I'm all for it. Maybe that was I can help some people save time, money and mess.

audioarsonal
11-28-2007, 10:04 AM
I think alot of people have started out using liquid nails mainly because they didn't have proper equipment.But as they progress they should get better have better tools and more knowledge of box building.With that you realize that if you take your time and have the right equipment you don't need a "filler"(i.e. liquid nails) just wood glue and a tight joint with some screws for clamping is the best way.Not to mention the money you save from buying a less expensive more suited product.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:05 AM
Why do people keep comparing Liquid Nails & Gorilla Glue?

Liquid Nails = caulk.
Gorilla Glue = expanding GLUE.:uhoh: Um, liquid nails for this purpose is not a caulk in the least, it's a construction adhesive.

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 10:06 AM
You know why I have a never wrong complex about wood glue? Because I used to think EXACTLY like you did, until I actually tested, not used, but actually tested what I was preaching. And you know what happened? I was blatantly wrong. Wood glue beat everything hands down. Therefore, I don't feel bad in the least in sounding arrogant about something that I used to believe what you do about. So if you think I'm arrogant, I'm all for it. Maybe that was I can help some people save time, money and mess.

But dude.. Liquid Nails MAKES Wood glue..

If Liquid Nails: Wood isn't good, then what would you suggest using?

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:07 AM
I think alot of people have started out using liquid nails mainly because they didn't have proper equipment.But as they progress they should get better have better tools and more knowledge of box building.With that you realize that if you take your time and have the right equipment you don't need a "filler"(i.e. liquid nails) just wood glue and a tight joint with some screws for clamping is the best way.Not to mention the money you save from buying a less expensive more suited product.Exactly, 100%, completely what I've been saying this entire time.

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 10:07 AM
:uhoh: Um, liquid nails for this purpose is not a caulk in the least, it's a construction adhesive.

Comes in a caulking tube & is used with a caulking gun..

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:11 AM
But dude.. Liquid Nails MAKES Wood glue..

If Liquid Nails: Wood isn't good, then what would you suggest using?No, they make this:
http://liquidnails.com/ViewProductDetails.do?productId=56

Whether or not they actually make a true wood glue is irrelevant, so we'll assume they wont. Much like titebond makes construction adhesives, but that's also irrelevant. Wood glue is primarily polyvinyl acetate, which is traditionally either yellow , off white or brown, runny and has the consistency of school white glue. It isn't thick like liquid nails, is water soluble and easy to clean up. THIS is wood glue
http://www.titebond.com/images/Products/Titebond2TB.gif

audioarsonal
11-28-2007, 10:14 AM
thanks PV.....Glad to help a fellow hoosier.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:14 AM
Comes in a caulking tube & is used with a caulking gun..http://www.ec-securehost.com/BeachGlassMosaics/images/LN2_lg.jpg

Same product, different container. They have fiberglass putty in caulking tubes, so that's caulk as well?

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 10:14 AM
Recommended For: lumber, OSB, paneling, wood molding, particleboard, waferboard, treated lumber, plywood, and drywall.

It clearly states PLYWOOD, which birch IS plywood..
I mean I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm looking for an agreement on YOUR part..

& audioarsenal is correct. That's a BIG reason why many people use Liquid Nails, it's thick & fills any gaps.. which is very useful, versus Titebond.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:18 AM
It clearly states PLYWOOD, which birch IS plywood..
I mean I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm looking for an agreement on YOUR part..

& audioarsenal is correct. That's a BIG reason why many people use Liquid Nails, it's thick & fills any gaps.. which is very useful, versus Titebond.It isn't wood glue though. It's a glue that can be used on wood, versus wood glue is specifically, and I mean literally chemically made to only bond wood. You could use liquid nails wood version on steel and it would still work (yes, I've done it). Wood glue is about as useful as elmer's school glue when gluing anything but wood.

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 10:21 AM
It isn't wood glue though. It's a glue that can be used on wood, versus wood glue is specifically, and I mean literally chemically made to only bond wood. You could use liquid nails wood version on steel and it would still work (yes, I've done it). Wood glue is about as useful as elmer's school glue when gluing anything but wood.

I'm going to seriously ask you to make a thread about why wood glue is MADE for wood..
Like what properties MAKE it better for wood than other glues.. so on & so forth..

Because I stand corrected.

J31Rob
11-28-2007, 10:21 AM
& yeah, I'll admit it.. :emb:

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:28 AM
I'm going to seriously ask you to make a thread about why wood glue is MADE for wood..
Like what properties MAKE it better for wood than other glues.. so on & so forth..

Because I stand corrected.Maybe next year, I don't have enough chemistry to know that kinda detailed ****, I just know it's true because I've tested it :laugh:

tsenfw
11-28-2007, 10:35 AM
you can just see the way wood glue soaks into the mdf and woods.

I actually accidently glued a piece of mdf that I was using for a measured spacer for like 5 min. I had to get the hammer out to get this small piece of mdf out of my box because of like a quarter sized amount of wood glue.

PV Audio
11-28-2007, 10:38 AM
you can just see the way wood glue soaks into the mdf and woods.

I actually accidently glued a piece of mdf that I was using for a measured spacer for like 5 min. I had to get the hammer out to get this small piece of mdf out of my box because of like a quarter sized amount of wood glue.What's even more interesting is if you cut the wood maybe a centimeter from a glued joint, you can see the branches of wood glue that have seeped into the wood. I've never been able to break the joint either, it always breaks like an inch or so away.

ballstothewall
11-28-2007, 12:17 PM
*edit*


Have you guys seen this page yet? If not, read.

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/346/wood-glue-showdown

tommyk90
11-28-2007, 12:35 PM
Why is it so hard for people to grasp the idea that WOOD glue is best suited for gluing WOOD? I mean honestly?

J31Rob, I posted 5 pages back why wood glue is better for wood. Wood glue creates a CHEMICAL bond that actually "melts" the pieces of wood together for lack of a better term. Try to break apart that joint and you end up tearing the wood apart, thus proving that the joint is stronger than the wood itself.

Liquid nails, gorilla glue, etc. only create a SURFACE bond. The glue is still the weakest part of the joint. Sure, try to separate a joint and you may end up tearing the wood apart, but not as severely as titebond or other wood glues, and not as often either.

I've taken whole panels off boxes that were liquid nailed into place without damaging either panel.


BTW, if you need something to fill gaps, try using titebond and sawdust. Works great. :)

ballstothewall
11-28-2007, 12:36 PM
Why is it so hard for people to grasp the idea that WOOD glue is best suited for gluing WOOD? I mean honestly?


Its ca.com, does it honestly surprise you?

tommyk90
11-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Its ca.com, does it honestly surprise you?

At this point I guess it probably shouldn't.

bjfish11
11-28-2007, 02:36 PM
How bout, if you want to use liquid nails, let them go right ahead. But for the people that want to learn, dont mind taking advice from people with experience, AND want to do it the right way; get yourself some good WOOD glue. ;)

kmanian
11-28-2007, 02:49 PM
Exactly, 100%, completely what I've been saying this entire time.

this is exactly my point

bjfish11
11-28-2007, 06:06 PM
*edit*


Have you guys seen this page yet? If not, read.

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/346/wood-glue-showdown

Interesting.... who would have thought Wood glue would be the best for gluing wood?

Good find, maybe that will calm some of the people who think otherwise....

cha0
11-28-2007, 06:13 PM
what about guarilla tape? would that work? i mean much faster then screws and glue.

cha0
11-28-2007, 06:14 PM
/end sarcasm

kmanian
11-28-2007, 08:46 PM
Don't worry about not being the best builder. At least you can spell..

Not only can I not spell,
I am dyslexic, and have attention deficit among other learning disabilities! So what is you point?
Isn't that why God gave us Bill Gates who created spell check?

sexy
10-31-2009, 07:07 PM
Unless you have a really nice table saw and the skill to use it, you probably are not going to be able to get cuts that are considered proper. thats so true. as for and I mean literally chemically made to only bond wood. wood glue is just ground up horse and cat guts and water not to many chemicals but it is da chit when it soaks in due to the water. for the op pre drilling also helps to prevent splits on any kind of wood. fine thread screws have more pulling power than course thread just like fine thread bolts used for high tork apps. with course or fine thread you have to use the right size drill bit to get the most grip for fine thread drywalls i think i use a # 40 drill bit. i dont build enough boxes to be smooth at it so i pre build everything then take it apart and apply glue then put it back together. if i am going to put any sealant on an areo or inside seam i use 100% silicone it is expensive but hey so are good subs. take your time do it right and dont be cheep. i dont know who is right or wrong i am just sharing my experience hope i didnt **** anybody off.

PV Audio
11-01-2009, 01:57 AM
You do realize this thread is TWO years old, right?

sexy
11-01-2009, 08:39 AM
oh