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maloy013
10-13-2007, 11:27 AM
hi guys first timer here be gentle :veryhapp:

anyway i have been reading alot in the forums for awhile and just decided to join in and im now looking for some new comp for my car (scion tc) and have narrowed my list to the following

alpine type x refs
Pioneer TS-C720PRS
ppi 356cs

also i am currently using type r comps and type r coax int the back with an alpine 4 channel amp so this time i want something a little more "laid back" type of comps any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks guys!!!

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 11:32 AM
How much power does your Alpine amp push? I assume you're going to be using the included passive crossovers with whatever components you buy?

What kind of music do you listen to mostly? What are you looking for really out of your comps? High-end cymbal sizzle? Hammering midbass? Clear midrange for detail on instrumental tracks? I know most people want a nice, balanced overall clarity, but if we know a little about your listening prefs, we might be more able to recommend something.

Also, I assume these will be going in stock door locations? Are you doors deadened at all? If not, might you consider doing some deadening and sealing of your doors to get the best possible sound?

Do you have a sub as well, or are you looking for your comps to play all the way down into the low, low range? If not, where do you plan to cross them over, removing bass frequencies? 80 to 100Hz is a pretty common place for most people, although it depends on if you're using the crossover on your amp (likely 12dB/oct) or if you may have a steeper crossover on your headunit (many offer 24dB/oct slopes).

I know... alot of questions. ;)

morgans432
10-13-2007, 11:32 AM
I got some re comps great components and you don't really want to run components in the back just in the front. Midbass in the back and then comps up front. I will sell you my re's for $120 shipped.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 11:39 AM
@trdoc i have the alpine mrv f450 running the set is this enuf? and listen to mostly hiphop and rnb from what i have read the type r are a little too harsh on the tweeters and i think i can vouch for that so looking for more clarity, and yes my doors are already deadend:)

@morgans thanks for the offer but im pretty much dead set on the list...

maloy013
10-13-2007, 11:39 AM
any more input guys?

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Ok, as for people telling you that you shouldn't run components in the back, it's just simply bunk and internet bandwagon-jumping. Here's why:

People talk about not using rear fill at all. This is true in competition circles, rear-fill is frowned upon, because it detracts from the front image and staging if not implemented extremely carefully.

However, in today's world of video setups and 5.1 theater in the car, as well as most people who couldn't give 2 shits about SQ competition, all they want is something to 'fill up' their car with music. Hell, most people don't even care about stereo separation, much less imaging and staging! Also people say that you should spend the majority of your money on components up front (since this is where the driver sits, and there will always be a driver in the car, but not always rear passengers). Saving money on rear-fill by using coaxials (or not having rear-fill at all) is one way to allow for a bigger budget for better speakers in the front. Arguing against components in the rear is mainly just an argument for monetary savings and installation issues, not sound issues.

However, this poster already has Type R comps, but I would guess those are in the front, and the Type R coax are in the back, making it a moot point. But if people want to have rear speakers, that's their preference and if they're not competing or trying hard to attain imaging and staging, then rear fill is no issue whatsoever.

Personally, I don't use rear fill, and haven't since removing the stock system. In my wife's stock Taurus, I keep the sound faded about 75% to the front, because my 2-y/o son rides in the back and I don't want it blaring in his ears, although I generally don't turn it up much at all when he's in the car. But I can see the point that for most people, it makes little to no difference, and in fact, most novice or new amateur enthusiasts will pick a rear-fill system as their preference over a front-stage only system. This has been my experience in the past. Do I miss rear-fill? Not a bit.

Now...

That Alpine amp is 70x4 @ 4 ohms, which isn't bad at all for most entry-level components. The one's you've listed will probably do fairly well with that amount of power, but if you've got the opportunity to bi-amp them, I think you'll be pretty pleased with the improvement. And you could run the rear-fill off your deck, instead of the amp (assuming this isn't what you were already planning). In a car that small, you can easily fill it up with a great set of bi-amped components, and those rear coaxes can fade out of the picture. ;) I can't comment specifically on those sets, although the mids on the Pioneers have had their praises sung many times on the forums. The tweets are nothing special, and some people say they kinda crap out at moderate-to-high volume levels.

Other than that, I can't help ya. ;)

Good luck!

maloy013
10-13-2007, 11:59 AM
trd i dont mind taking of the coaxials in the rear like u said if its gonna help or run it of the hu but what is bi-ampng? how do i do that? is that any diff with goin active?

plus given my current system what u think is the best?

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 12:05 PM
Sec, lemme get some pics for you....

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 12:23 PM
trd i dont mind taking of the coaxials in the rear like u said if its gonna help or run it of the hu but what is bi-ampng? how do i do that? is that any diff with goin active?

plus given my current system what u think is the best?

OK, here's a picture of a standard crossover:

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1237

Notice there are 6 terminals on each crossover... 1 pair of inputs and 2 pairs of outputs... so one amp channel goes in, and gets split to go to the tweeter and the midrange. Make sense?

Now, here are some bi-ampable crossovers:

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=4985
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-QUART-CROSSOVERS_W0QQitemZ230180868721QQihZ013QQcategory Z18800QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What stands out about these? They have 8 terminals, which in a bi-ampable crossover means you have an input for mids and an input for highs, as well as an output for mids and an output for highs. So you can run a separate amp channel to each speaker, and still use the passive crossovers. So in your case....

You could use a standard crossover setup and run a single channel input from your amp to each side, then run your rear coaxes off the other amp channel. So you'd in essence be running 70x2 to the front components, and 70x2 to your coaxes in the rear.

With a bi-amped setup, you could run 70x4 to your front components, and your coaxes off the deck. This is what I would recommend. I personally prefer sending plenty of good clean power to the front components. I have noticed a significant difference every time when going from standard passive to bi-amped, or actively crossed over with a separate amp channel for each speaker.

That would be my recommendation.

So, as to your choice, I'd look into whether all of those sets offer bi-ampable crossovers (obviously the Pioneers do), if one doesn't, if it were me, I'd exclude it.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 12:23 PM
and i can also bridge it to give it more power right?

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 12:29 PM
You can bridge the amp and deliver it as one channel to a regular crossover or a bi-ampable one. I've tried that, too, and unless your amp makes ALOT more power bridged, it hasn't seemed to offer alot of benefit to me.

Yours does 70x4 or 200x2... so you would be bi-amping at 70x4 (140 watts per side), or mono-amping at 200 watts per side. It might offer some benefit, but I don't think the Pioneers will benefit from the extra power. Can't say about the other sets.

JoeHemi57
10-13-2007, 12:32 PM
i have a new set of the type x's for sale and i would definitely recommend the bi-amp route.

tbasile1
10-13-2007, 12:42 PM
Pioneers :yumyum:

maloy013
10-13-2007, 12:45 PM
ok kinda figured bi-amping do u guys think this the best way for the comps i mentioned with my current amp or do i need a new amp as well? all the sets i mentioned are within the 65-75 watt range.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 12:50 PM
Pioneers :yumyum:

you think?:cool:

ive always been partial to alpine as u can see but m really hearng good things with the pioneer can they do biamp as well?

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 12:58 PM
Yes, those Pioneer comps are bi-ampable.

I think you can get by just fine with the amp you have, I don't think you need a new one.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:13 PM
ok guys im learning alot here (since i had somebody do my install for me) but isnt it better to bridged my amp and give it a clean 200 watts each set than give it a measly 70 watts to give it more thump or midbass?also i want it to be crystal clear even at low to moderate levels.

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 01:18 PM
Well, we're talking bi-amping vs bridging... so the apples to apples comparison is 140W per side vs 200W per side, right?

You might notice a slight bit of improvement, but it depends on the speakers, really, if they can handle more power, or if you're just going to be losing it to power compression, heat, etc., and if you might blow them.

Just going by the theory of power-to-volume, going from 140 to 200 is probably only about 1dB difference, barely audible. Again, that's just a theory... I think it'll be somewhat of a push either way.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:22 PM
ok bi-amp it is:D how do i set the gains and the frequencys tho or i should just let passive crossovers do it for me?

JoeHemi57
10-13-2007, 01:24 PM
You will have to set the gains seperately for the mid and tweet but the passives will handle the cutoff point.

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 01:26 PM
I'd suggest using a high-pass filter on the mids, though, to protect them from bass frequencies. Your amp has one built-in.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:27 PM
ok but i only have 1 set of gain adjustment for channels 1 and 2 right same as 3 and 4?
also the frequency adjustment 0-120hz i beleive how do i do that?
and the settings hpf, lpf or full?

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 01:30 PM
You have a crossover knob and a gain knob for channels 1&2 and crossover knob and gain knob for channels 3&4.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:34 PM
You have a crossover knob and a gain knob for channels 1&2 and crossover knob and gain knob for channels 3&4.


right and how do u think i should adjust the crossover and gain knob? 10, 11, 12 o'clock.....

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 01:35 PM
That all depends on your headunit.

Do a search here for "setting gains"

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:36 PM
oh nevermind about the gain just the crossover knobs!:)

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:37 PM
That all depends on your headunit.

Do a search here for "setting gains"


you beat me to it!

my headunit? can you please specify:confused:

tRidiot
10-13-2007, 01:39 PM
You just have to listen to what your speakers sound like and turn up the crossover till you get no bass distortion from the mids at your higher listening levels.

So, usually 80-125Hz is where most people seem to cross their mids over.

maloy013
10-13-2007, 01:44 PM
ok thanks doc! will let u guys know what i decide on and will try post some pics. any good sites i can buy d pioneers too at reasonable price?

JoeHemi57
10-13-2007, 02:13 PM
i've got the alpines for $175 shipped, about $75 less than the pioneers usually go for...

Gary S
10-13-2007, 04:36 PM
I'd bridge the amp and bi-wire to the same channels... whether it's noticeably louder or not, it will sound better.

maloy013
10-14-2007, 01:25 AM
how do u do that gary?

@hemi really interested r they bnew?

maloy013
10-14-2007, 01:26 AM
can anybody make a quick, pretty detailed comparison between the comps i listed? thanks!