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Megalomaniac
09-01-2007, 05:02 PM
Is this a common practice for a Midbass installation?

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q151/Megalomaniac1989/floorpod20small.jpg


Installing the Focal K3P 3 way component set in front required locating the woofer somewhere other than the doors, so pods were built on the floor, with the midrange and tweeter mounted in the factory door locations. This is one great sounding system

04 corvette
http://www.caraudioinnovations.com/installations.htm

i dont understand as to why wouldnt they put the mid in the door and put the midrange in some kicks?...

they did it again in a 528 installation

http://www.caraudioinnovations.com/installations/images/528%20floor%20enclosures%20smal.jpg

smd4life
09-01-2007, 05:05 PM
i've seen mounted near the pedals in a false floor...but never a pod near the seat like that

sundownz
09-01-2007, 05:06 PM
I have actually heard of the midbass under the front seat area type install before. Apparently it actually works quite well and is done fairly regularly in European SQ competition. I believe the secret is not to run the midbass speaker very high.

ngsm13
09-01-2007, 05:07 PM
Eh... quite the obtrusive setup...

nG

xtremekustomz
09-01-2007, 05:07 PM
I've seen it done a good bit and it does work and pretty well for some vehicles. I've even seen the midrange put in that location. Not the best place....but it does work.

Megalomaniac
09-01-2007, 05:09 PM
I have actually heard of the midbass under the front seat area type install before. Apparently it actually works quite well and is done fairly regularly in European SQ competition. I believe the secret is not to run the midbass speaker very high.

i know suburus have a woofer under the set i think its only like 3.5" though. but i have never seen a pod like that where its completely in sight, and able to be stepped on.

smd4life
09-01-2007, 05:16 PM
france.........:crap:

sundownz
09-01-2007, 05:16 PM
You will note that it is only done with 3-way setups in a real SQ type install. I have heard of very high scoring European SQ cars using this type midbass location as long as the midbass is not ran extremely high it apparently works quite well.

Megalomaniac
09-01-2007, 05:17 PM
You will note that it is only done with 3-way setups in a real SQ type install. I have heard of very high scoring European SQ cars using this type midbass location as long as the midbass is not ran extremely high it apparently works quite well.

that doesnt explain the tweets and midrange in the doors. cant be very imaged for SQ...

phantom240
09-01-2007, 05:22 PM
Meh. I wanna do that. I can't build kicks due to space, and I can't fiberglass anything on my door panels because if I mess up, I'll never find another set again... Curse my car's limited production numbers.

Rich B
09-01-2007, 05:32 PM
I like that!

Use an aluminum coned mid and it could double as an ashtray.

True genius!

alphakenny1
09-01-2007, 06:17 PM
i agree, its very obtrusive and ugly IMO. the midbass better not be playing very high, meaning not over 150hz or so, it'll kill imaging if it is crossed any higher.

squeak9798
09-01-2007, 06:21 PM
Common?

No.

But I've seen it done multiple times before.

Here is the install of a guy who used to be on the forums fequently;

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/244210

Megalomaniac
09-01-2007, 07:24 PM
Common?

No.

But I've seen it done multiple times before.

Here is the install of a guy who used to be on the forums fequently;

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/244210

wow sound domain has spyware now :(

Gary S
09-02-2007, 02:33 PM
If for some reason they could not get a good install in/good amount of air space in the kicks... those midbass drivers on the floor like that are actually decent speaker placement.

Best Three-way installs I have ever seen with conventional drivers is mid and tweet in the kicks, and midbass drivers in the floor under the dash/firewall.... the midbass driver in an install like that, on the driver's side, for instance, would be under the pedals. maybe someone can post a pic of one of those installs, I know they are out there.

T3mpest
09-02-2007, 02:43 PM
for pure midbass that wouldn't be terrible. Off axis response is nearly identical to on axis at those frequencies. Height is a non issue running that low too. All they need to do is get the time delay right for each driver. I'd worry about vibrations though. actual stage depth might be an issue. Still not a technically terrible place for drivers that are very bandwidth limited.

newusername
09-02-2007, 02:49 PM
Any bets on how poorly it does in two-seat scoring?

xtremekustomz
09-02-2007, 02:58 PM
If for some reason they could not get a good install in/good amount of air space in the kicks... those midbass drivers on the floor like that are actually decent speaker placement.

Best Three-way installs I have ever seen with conventional drivers is mid and tweet in the kicks, and midbass drivers in the floor under the dash/firewall.... the midbass driver in an install like that, on the driver's side, for instance, would be under the pedals. maybe someone can post a pic of one of those installs, I know they are out there.
Kinda what you are talking about here.
http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/240web42.jpg

T3mpest
09-02-2007, 03:38 PM
Any bets on how poorly it does in two-seat scoring?

european leagues are all one seaters if I remember right, so yeah, technically terrible placement bandaided with time alignment, only sounds good from 1 seat.

filtor1
09-02-2007, 04:08 PM
If mine were like that, the drivers side would for sure be full of coffee.

goodstuff
09-02-2007, 04:11 PM
If mine were like that, the drivers side would for sure be full of coffee.

x2, and various crumbs. lol.

phantom240
09-02-2007, 06:09 PM
Hmm.. with the tangband 5.25's on sale at just about $20 a piece, I might pick some up and see what I can do with em like this:up2somet:

Gary S
09-03-2007, 04:57 PM
The picture xtremekustomz posted is sort of what I mean... although that looks like a mid in that pic with the phase plug.





european leagues are all one seaters if I remember right, so yeah, technically terrible placement bandaided with time alignment, only sounds good from 1 seat.


- Now that I have had time to think about it more, I retract my original statment... those midbass drivers on the floor are in poor positions... not only for two listeners, but also for one.... you guys are right, thank you for posting and setting the record straight. It's not so bad if the drivers are crossed low, but it's still bad for soundstage and imaging.

genxx
09-04-2007, 04:21 AM
Only problem I see with that is if the driver side is the same then the sense of feel/touch. That mid-bass firing into you leg you would feel it allowing you to localize it. If had alot of authority it cold cuase a huge problem. Once you localize it, it would cause major problems in the front sound stage. It would pull your attention toward it.IMO

Just me .2 cents.

sundownz
09-04-2007, 01:56 PM
that doesnt explain the tweets and midrange in the doors. cant be very imaged for SQ...

I was able to get a great sound stage and image in factory door locations in my 325i BMW. It just took some processing with a 3Sixty.2 to get it done. The setup can work quite well, just takes processing to make it work optimally.

Granted, the passenger side didn't sound nearly as good... but hey, I don't sit over there and 99% of my passengers don't understand SQ anyway :)

xtremekustomz
09-04-2007, 02:31 PM
The picture xtremekustomz posted is sort of what I mean... although that looks like a mid in that pic with the phase plug.


It's his midbass. The drivers that he sells now have a phase plug in the middle of them. Here is a picture with the midrange out and the midbass in it's location without the grille. I'm sure that is the 3" midrange that he sells and most of his guys use.

http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/240web88.jpg

Megalomaniac
09-04-2007, 03:31 PM
that midrange is a hybrid audio l3

Gary S
09-04-2007, 03:34 PM
Sundownz is right... you can get good sound from door mounts or midbass drivers in front of the seat, but only for one seat. Not for both seats at the same time.


[QUOTE=xtremekustomz;3366215]It's his midbass. The drivers that he sells now have a phase plug in the middle of them. Here is a picture with the midrange out and the midbass in it's location without the grille. I'm sure that is the 3" midrange that he sells and most of his guys use.


- I got it now... I thought I saw a small grill in the kick panel. I would have put the tweeter in the kick also... I think he likes to put the tweeter up higher.

I have a formula for speaker placement in cars... in most cars, the best place to put mids and tweeters is about where the floor meets the kick panel. The goal is obtaining the widest placement while maintaining a phantom center image in front of both front seat listeners.

What price are his component speaker systems going for?

xtremekustomz
09-04-2007, 04:40 PM
This is the last list I got from him but I think the prices have changed a little bit since December. You can view everything at: http://www.hybrid-audio.com/ Check out the frequency response of the drivers (bandwidth :) ). It's crazy.

Here's the complete Legatia breakdown in USD.

Individual Speaker Pairs:
L1: MSRP = $109.99
L3: MSRP = $269.99
L4: MSRP = $299.99
L6: MSRP = $359.99
L8: MSRP = $399.99

Individual Passive Crossover Pairs:
2x-41: MSRP = $149.99
2x-61: MSRP = $149.99
3x-631: MSRP = $179.99
3x-641: MSRP = $179.99
3x-831: MSRP = $179.99
3x-841: MSRP = $179.99

Two Way Sets Without Crossovers:
L31-2: MSRP = $359.99
L41-2: MSRP = $399.99
L61-2: MSRP = $449.99

Two Way Sets With Crossovers:
L41-2x: MSRP = $519.99
L61-2x: MSRP = $559.99

Three Way Sets Without Crossovers:
L631-3: MSRP = $719.99
L641-3: MSRP = $759.99
L831-3: MSRP = $789.99
L841-3: MSRP = $829.99

Three Way Sets With Crossovers:
L631-3x: MSRP = $879.99
L641-3x: MSRP = $919.99
L831-3x: MSRP = $949.99
L841-3x: MSRP = $989.99

xtremekustomz
09-04-2007, 09:18 PM
- I got it now... I thought I saw a small grill in the kick panel. I would have put the tweeter in the kick also... I think he likes to put the tweeter up higher.

I have a formula for speaker placement in cars... in most cars, the best place to put mids and tweeters is about where the floor meets the kick panel. The goal is obtaining the widest placement while maintaining a phantom center image in front of both front seat listeners.



He runs his midrange up pretty high up in the 6-8k region if I'm not mistaken so I don't think the has a problem. His cars usually do very well. I know he's got multiple World Championships. I personally just sit in the vehicle with some tape and listen in different locations until I get the best spot LOL

FoxPro5
09-05-2007, 12:57 AM
The L3 is a nice little speaker. But it's BOOOORINGGGGGG! :(

Nice install on those kicks xtreme. :)

Oh and I put my midbass in my headrest, is that bad? :confused:

Megalomaniac
09-05-2007, 12:58 AM
The L3 is a nice little speaker. But it's BOOOORINGGGGGG! :(

Nice install on those kicks xtreme. :)

Oh and I put my midbass in my headrest, is that bad? :confused:


whats boring about them? cause i was looking into them a few months ago.

genxx
09-05-2007, 04:00 AM
For all interested in kickpanel speaker location this is a very good read and very informative.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5664

xtremekustomz
09-05-2007, 08:54 AM
The L3 is a nice little speaker. But it's BOOOORINGGGGGG! :(

Nice install on those kicks xtreme. :)

Oh and I put my midbass in my headrest, is that bad? :confused:


Actually that is Scott Buwalda's car. I just posted the pic LOL

You wouldn't believe some of the guys that have asked me about putting speakers in their seats.....

xtremekustomz
09-05-2007, 08:57 AM
whats boring about them? cause i was looking into them a few months ago.


They are definately neat little drivers. I have listened to a few sets of them and honestly for a 3" they do very well. It isn't really the sound I prefer though. All of the ones that I listened to didn't sound "real" if you know what I mean. The vehicles they are in win multiple sq competitions though

Gary S
09-05-2007, 12:36 PM
He runs his midrange up pretty high up in the 6-8k region if I'm not mistaken so I don't think the has a problem. His cars usually do very well. I know he's got multiple World Championships. I personally just sit in the vehicle with some tape and listen in different locations until I get the best spot LOL


- Yes, I think he likes to put the tweeters up high, such as in the A-pillars, to raise the apparent sound stage. But I think there are some compromises made having the drivers separated so much, and driver-to-driver distance ratios so different, not to mention the high crossover point. I like a point source aproach... high dispersion, wide-band drivers close together with reasonably low crossover points. His drivers are built right, I just don't like the crossovers and tweeter placement.

It is possible to get a high sound-stage, say, around ear level or above the dash, and a sound stage as wide as the side mirrors with front mid and tweets solely in the kicks.

Also - yes, with his crossover so high, he can get away with having the tweeters high and away from the mids... the most critical region for spacial cues is in the midrange, particularly up to about 7k... notice that his crossover point is right in that neighborhood. But it will still compromise the sound quality in other areas to some degree.

Megalomaniac
09-05-2007, 12:50 PM
right now i have my mids in the doors and tweets in the pillars. I have wanting to go 3 way for a while, and still intend on doing so. right now i music level is above dash. I get mild separation, but knowing going active 3-way might actually resolve this issue and bring soundstage a little higher and further back. I am trying to do all research as possible. When getting the midrange i was thinking to go domes because they have a better offaxis response so i can mount them a little more "cosmetically-fitting". Any suggestions, i was looking into the iridiums 3" mids.

xtremekustomz
09-05-2007, 01:30 PM
right now i have my mids in the doors and tweets in the pillars. I have wanting to go 3 way for a while, and still intend on doing so. right now i music level is above dash. I get mild separation, but knowing going active 3-way might actually resolve this issue and bring soundstage a little higher and further back. I am trying to do all research as possible. When getting the midrange i was thinking to go domes because they have a better offaxis response so i can mount them a little more "cosmetically-fitting". Any suggestions, i was looking into the iridiums 3" mids.

Well....usually domes can't extend very low in the frequency range compared to a cone driver. I know when I had my Dyn System 360 in my truck with the dome mid and tweet in the kick and the midbass in the doors I had good height until a male voice or drum kick would come in. Then the stage would lower on the left or right side to around even with the top of the door. I loved the way that they sounded but not everything was coming from above the dash. I think the factory crosover point was set at 900 hz @ 6db/octave for the midrange. I played around with it active and lowering the crossover points and increasing slopes and all that but it never worked out very well in my truck. Each vehicle is different and I think they do work pretty well in cars if you can get them close enough to the midbass driver. In my particular truck the midbass was probably 8" higher and 8-10" closer than the mid and tweet so it caused some separation problems. As soon as I get out of college and buy a car I'm going to try to use them in there since I already have them.

Megalomaniac
09-05-2007, 01:34 PM
well i like Jan's gti how her BE mids are in the a pillar right below the BE tickers. I may try that idea and hope it works well in my accord, i may do a dry run first to see if it sounds good, actually I'll probably try a variety of placements. I am probably either going to the domes or save up more and get the Hertz mille planers :D. but i would probably have to cross the mids a bit higher

xtremekustomz
09-05-2007, 03:34 PM
I've seen some dome midranges put in the a-pillars but from what I understand it is a tricky thing to do right. Normally you would want a single point source for a driver and with her midrange I'm sure she is able to run it down into the 150-200hz range whereas a dome can't go that low and there would be a separation problem. The main reason for wanting to do kick panels is to keep the path length between the speakers to a minimum. Either way I would definately recommend trying different locations. It does take more time but why not get the best location from the beginning.

genxx
09-06-2007, 08:13 AM
Megalomaniac -You should check this out if you haven't. It get in-depth about kickpanels, tweeters in a-pillar and separation of tweets in the a-pillar and mids in the kicks.

xtremekustomzDid you check this out yet. It has some great info that also discusses some of what you have spoke of. Pathlegnths ect.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5664

Hebrew Hammer
09-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Only problem I see with that is if the driver side is the same then the sense of feel/touch. That mid-bass firing into you leg you would feel it allowing you to localize it. If had alot of authority it cold cuase a huge problem. Once you localize it, it would cause major problems in the front sound stage. It would pull your attention toward it.IMO

Just me .2 cents.

right on dude...finally people are starting to listen to a brotha...

acouple of things..

localization queues from both tactile energy transfer and visual is something you'll never get past with this location.

also width queues which the majority of them are in the midbass region would **** with a driver mounted almost center of the car...

PLD's ****.....

I can't stress placing drivers as far and as wide as you can...this truly does pay off...

genxx
09-07-2007, 06:30 AM
I am trying to come along for the ride. Couple more months and get to put all this new knowledge to use on the new SQ comp car build. I just hope I get the equipment I have chosen to work the way I want. If not run it the 1st season then switch to something new.

Thanks for all the help so far Hebrew. You see some of the stuff I learned so far.