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gsr22
08-01-2007, 05:57 PM
hey i was looking at some scanspeak revelators and other comparable diy mids and they all seekm to need a sealed enclose of a bout .25ft or so whats the best way to make enclosure for the mids to go in the door besides fiberglass

kross
08-01-2007, 11:33 PM
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-7cng028KkDK/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=baffle&i=237XT65

xtremekustomz
08-02-2007, 12:03 AM
First of all...what size scan speak driver are you talking about? From the .25 cu ft it looks like you are looking for a dedicated midrange? I would cross them over at 2k because they don't work well off axis beyond that point. Also...make sure that enclosure is completely sealed becasue they aren't made to deal with moisture. Personally I would put them in the kicks to get the best sound. Make sure your enclosure is really strong and solid. I'd use a good bit of deadener, non hardening modeling clay, and some polyfill on the inside.

AcidicDreams
08-02-2007, 01:47 AM
infinite baffle.... seal the inside door panel from the rest of the cab and the whole door becomes the box.....

AcidicDreams
08-02-2007, 01:47 AM
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-7cng028KkDK/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=baffle&i=237XT65

those aren't enclosures...

IgnoreMe
08-02-2007, 02:09 AM
infinite baffle.... seal the inside door panel from the rest of the cab and the whole door becomes the box.....

ive always wondered that. how does my door become the box, if there is basically no way to seal around the window "gasket"? its basically a big leak right there.

just a serious ? ive been wondering about.

gsr22
08-02-2007, 08:52 AM
infinite baffle.... seal the inside door panel from the rest of the cab and the whole door becomes the box.....

well i have my doors completly deadend with 2 layers of ss/raammat filled the holes with plexi have egg crate foam behind the speakes and ensolite on top of everything?

i, not sure if those diy drivers are made for infinite baffle i believe there suppose top go in a tower so the only way of making an enlocusure has to be fiber glass right

also i was looking at the 7" rev

genxx
08-02-2007, 09:21 AM
Go to DIY and ask the same question. I have ran the Seas IB. Never had the Scans but you can get the answer quick on DIYMA. On the glass the window gasket works the same was as you not having a swimming pool in your door when it rains. Same idea as when using an entire trunk in IB. I am sure some air is going to make it in or out some how but its such a small amount that it doesn't affect the driver. Just my .2 cents on the process.

xtremekustomz
08-02-2007, 09:26 AM
Scan Speak drivers are made for realistic musical production and if you aren't going to install them right then you are just wasting money. Like I said, those components are NOT made for vehicle use so they are not treated for moisture and if they get wet....well...there goes $400 They need to be in a sealed enclosure or an AP enclosure. When you hear people talk about how good these sound it has ALOT to do with the installation and tuning. Just because it is one of the best midranges doesn't mean that you can just throw it in somewhere. And yes, very strong fiberglass enclosures. I'm going to go ahead and tell you....making an enclosure for a midrange/midbass can cause you alot of headache. If you don't get that thing where it doesn't doesn't resonate it is just going to sound like pure ***. You may want to look for something in a car audio line that you can put in the doors and just use the door for the enclosure. I'm not telling you not to do it...but it isn't going to be easy to make it sound right by any means. If you want something that has a good thump, has the ability to play loud and handle lots of power I would say go with a Dynaudio.

genxx
08-02-2007, 09:52 AM
Plenty off people have ran the Scan Revs in vehicles. I have not but plenty of people have that can tell you how make them work best.

There are alot of drivers not made for vehicle use that people are using. It is easier for most people to just buy drivers desinged for car audio.

I agree it is going be installed based just like anything else you buy.

If your spending the money the Dyn's are nice. There is alot of other options out there unless you are dead set on a DIY driver.

IgnoreMe
08-02-2007, 10:01 AM
Go to DIY and ask the same question. I have ran the Seas IB. Never had the Scans but you can get the answer quick on DIYMA. On the glass the window gasket works the same was as you not having a swimming pool in your door when it rains. Same idea as when using an entire trunk in IB. I am sure some air is going to make it in or out some how but its such a small amount that it doesn't affect the driver. Just my .2 cents on the process.

what about when i roll my window all the way down? my window goes down far enough that it completely clears the gasket leaving like a 1/4" wide gap almost all the way back to where the door handle is.
just asking cause i always thought about building an enclosure for my mids but ive read both good and bad things about it.

sorry to thread jack

genxx
08-02-2007, 10:14 AM
Not sure never tried rolling it down and pooring water in to see how much it might leak. Good question though and I do not have the answer. Its wierd we all call it IB but is it truly IB? IB is only sealing the front from the back and no way a trunk is going to be completely sealed is there without drastic measures? From the trunk to the cabin I can see in IB. I had a Transam that we IB 2 12's in the rear well area. Like I said IMO you are not going to be able to completely seal up a door in IB.(I will add of a daily driver) You could I guess if you caulked the window or used expanding foam and sealed it off but then you couldn't roll it down. I am sure it could be done but not at an exceptable trade off.

I personally do not want to have to build door pods so I watch what I buy so I can get away with mounting them in the doors.(well deadened and sealed the best I can)

Only way I know to test would be to seal it and pressure test it with air. See if the gauge holds at a constant pressure.

I am going to have to build enclosures this time for my mid-range. So I feel you on the whole having to build an enclosure and hope its done perfect. I figure I will mess it up atleast twice and it will sound like a**. I will get it figured out in the end.

Sorry for the thread jacking.

genxx
08-02-2007, 10:55 AM
Here is answer about the Scans from the DIY Crowd cut and pasted about what you asked.

I am using them IB as dedicated midbass and work fantastic. The low end is GREAT! To protect them from dripping water I put some of those XTC foam baffles cut in half and the back cut off. Ensolite should work too.

My car came with untreated paper cone speakers, so if they can make it for many years, so will the scans. By the time they wear out I'll be ready for something new and improved anyway is how I look at it.

Also, Alpine and Gensis use a slightly modified version of the Scans in ther high end drivers, so why not cut the marketing fat and use the DIY drivers?

FoxPro5
08-02-2007, 12:01 PM
Expect a monstor low end and lack of detail in the upper midrange. They will not snap, but can sound like butter...smooth and sort of "warm." They will take all the power you and your sister can find to throw at them and then some!

By the description of your vehicle gsr22, they will play in nearly the identical environment that I have them in my car right now. I'M SURE all the other people that have replied to this thread have DIRECT experience with them in this application! RIIIIIIIGHT! :rolleyes:

My initial comments after installing them:
"For a driver not optimized for IB and not broken in yet, all I have to say is S O L I D, solid! I guess I'd never know they were 8 ohms to tell you the truth. Maybe the additional cone area has made up for it?? Either that or my impression of 8 ohm drivers needing more power has changed.

I can see how other's describe the tone as "dark." That was my first impression, actually. But "dark" in a good way because my Lord do they play clear, low and are buttery smooth. It's so nice to have a driver that can be HP at 50 hz or lower now. I missed that with the Profi Kicks. But, I do have to say that the Profi Kicks, from what my ears are telling me so far really do own the 80-250Hz range.

More listening and tuning is in order. But I can say with confidense that Dream Theater's "Pull Me Under" has never sounded better."

Picture of the actual drivers installed:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/P1011477.jpg (http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/P1011477.jpg)

Follow up comments after a few weeks:
"Yes they are lacking the snap and authority in that region due to install. My doors are well dampened and sealed the best as I can get them, but it still doesn't act as an enclosure. I'm going to do some further experimenting and maybe even make some pod extentions for the lower door panel so that I can put them on a really thick baffle.

I have them HP at 50hz with a 24db slope and then LP at 3.15hz with a 12 db /oct slope. I got some great advice from another member that runs them IB too. He felt that giving them some extra room above the typicall 200hz LP point will help them fill out more. I tried it and felt it was great advice."

FoxPro5
08-02-2007, 12:06 PM
Scan Speak drivers are made for realistic musical production and if you aren't going to install them right then you are just wasting money. Like I said, those components are NOT made for vehicle use so they are not treated for moisture and if they get wet....well...there goes $400 They need to be in a sealed enclosure or an AP enclosure. When you hear people talk about how good these sound it has ALOT to do with the installation and tuning. Just because it is one of the best midranges doesn't mean that you can just throw it in somewhere. And yes, very strong fiberglass enclosures. I'm going to go ahead and tell you....making an enclosure for a midrange/midbass can cause you alot of headache. If you don't get that thing where it doesn't doesn't resonate it is just going to sound like pure ***. You may want to look for something in a car audio line that you can put in the doors and just use the door for the enclosure. I'm not telling you not to do it...but it isn't going to be easy to make it sound right by any means. If you want something that has a good thump, has the ability to play loud and handle lots of power I would say go with a Dynaudio.

You're correct on a few things, but so far off on others that I don't even know where to begin to straighten it all out. :crap: Read what Genxx said.

FoxPro5
08-02-2007, 12:12 PM
infinite baffle.... seal the inside door panel from the rest of the cab and the whole door becomes the box.....

More like seperate the front wave from the back wave...not the door from the cab.

If you want to make sealed enclosures for these drivers, you're better off doing it inside the vehicle IMO...because by the time you've constructed a pod that will hold these drivers still they will already be up against your legs anyway. Not to mention the extreme need to have massive amounts of mass loading to bring the FS of the door down anyway.

If you're good, you can make these drivers sound good in your doors. If you don't want to take the time to work with them, I'd say your money is better spent elsewhere.

gsr22
08-02-2007, 01:43 PM
what are some other reccomendation for a 2 way diy setup as far as mids that go well ib

seas,peerless

and a compact tweeter to match seas neo vifa xt19

FoxPro5
08-02-2007, 03:19 PM
what are some other reccomendation for a 2 way diy setup as far as mids that go well ib

seas,peerless

and a compact tweeter to match seas neo vifa xt19

I think your questions will be answered well at DIYMA. And I apologise for calling you a kid, I meant no offense by that. :)

A great place to start your tweeter selection is at www.zaphaudio.com Read the Tweeter Mishmash. He's also done great reviews on mids as well.

Another resource is Mark K: http://www.markk.claub.net/Testing/testing.htm

Good luck with the install.

azngotskills
08-02-2007, 03:36 PM
well said FoxPro5 :)

genxx
08-02-2007, 03:42 PM
These are cheap but general concensus is that they would work very well in IB. They are cheap might be the best way to start. Although they are cheap don't let the price fool you.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8188

I would mate these with the Seas Neo or XT-19. Either would make a pretty good 2-way combo. There are better sets that can be put together by spending more money but for the price and until you get a better feel for exactly what you like then move up the scale.IMO

DIYMA can give you some really good insight and recommendations on the DIY set-ups.

I am not expert new to the whole DIY set. But I am learning.

AZN where you been. Thanks FOXPRO for the great info as usual.

SethPhillips
08-02-2007, 03:43 PM
ive always wondered that. how does my door become the box, if there is basically no way to seal around the window "gasket"? its basically a big leak right there.

just a serious ? ive been wondering about.

yea... that's not exactly seald off.....??

xtremekustomz
08-02-2007, 05:09 PM
You're correct on a few things, but so far off on others that I don't even know where to begin to straighten it all out. :crap: Read what Genxx said.

By all means tell me what I am off on. And no, I have not personally used them myself but I am going by the technical data and what some sq guys that use them have told me.


Scan Speak drivers are made for realistic musical production and if you aren't going to install them right then you are just wasting money.

These drivers are made for home use for a sealed or AP enclosure. I didn't say they couldn't be used IB, but they sound better when done in an enclosure like they were designed for. They don't work well off axis above 2k. I'm going to be using them in my next setup but they are going to be in kick panels with the midbass in the floor. A door is the worst place for a speaker. I'd recommend trying out different locations before you mount the thing because no one can tell you where to put it because every car is different. Although I understand that the speakers are going in your doors no matter what...I would just recommend something that is more suited for your application.


When you hear people talk about how good these sound it has ALOT to do with the installation and tuning. Just because it is one of the best midranges doesn't mean that you can just throw it in somewhere.

Installation of your midrange is the most important part of the setup. Throwing a speaker in a door isn't going to give you the best imaginging, sound, or closest pathlengths possible. Quoted from Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own..... Keep in mind that the drivers he used were designed to work very well 35 degrees off axis that has a dip at 2k but levels back out and goes well beyond the midrange frequencies.


And yes, very strong fiberglass enclosures. I'm going to go ahead and tell you....making an enclosure for a midrange/midbass can cause you alot of headache. If you don't get that thing where it doesn't doesn't resonate it is just going to sound like pure ***.

You want to keep all the sound bouncing around inside your enclosure to a minimum so the stronger and deadened the better. Preferably lined with clay. Build a weak undeadened enclosure and see what 100-125 hz sounds like.


You may want to look for something in a car audio line that you can put in the doors and just use the door for the enclosure. I'm not telling you not to do it...but it isn't going to be easy to make it sound right by any means.

Once again...the door is not a good place for a midrange. The only thing I would put in a door would be a straight midbass but even then I wouldn't like it. I can't even explain how much more realistic my Dyns sound after I put them in the kicks in an AP enclosure.


If you want something that has a good thump, has the ability to play loud and handle lots of power I would say go with a Dynaudio.
The dyn's are cheaper than the Scan Speak drivers and have a better off axis response beyond the 2k that the Scans have. You may actually want to look into the JBL 660GTI's. Like stated above, they work very well off axis for both listeners.

MiniVanMan
08-02-2007, 06:10 PM
An enclosure has very little affect as to how a driver will react on it upper end. The only thing that really comes into play on the upper end is baffle step, and any diffraction artifacts due to sharp corners, and weird angles. So, to say the Scans won't sound good because they're designed to be used in an enclosure is not very accurate. Where you'll see a problem is on the bottom end, and has no bearing on off-axis alignment, midrange clarity etc.

I'm looking at response graphs for the Dyns and the Scans. The Scans actually have better off-axis response. The Scans exhibit a flat response to 2k at 60 degrees off-axis with a mild 1-2 db hump at 1-2k. Midrange clarity is accentuated, and in an off-axis alignment like a door will actually perform very nicely. The Dynaudio MW162, while a smaller driver does not actually exhibit better off-axis response. In fact 2k at 60 degrees off-axis the driver fairs worse than the Scan, with a drop of about a 2 db. It exhibits the same type of hump in the 1-2k range and is typical in a lot of drivers to help off-axis listening. Overall though, a relatively similar performer, with a bit less performance on the top end. I don't know how much the Dyn MW162 costs, but if it's anywhere in the $150-200 range, I can think of a couple of drivers that will outperform it.

So, you'd be hard pressed to tell me how the Dyns will fare better. They may have a higher Qts making them more suitable for IB applications, but you'll also lose bottom end. I know the Dyns have good low end, but they don't come close to the Scans. I'm sorry, they just don't. The MW162 doesn't have better off-axis response. When we're talking drivers in this price range, we're also talking higher end tweeters. The need to reach 3k 60 degrees off-axis becomes moot when talking about a Cal27/28, or Lotus RT27F, etc, etc. Even in home scenarios, the goal is usually to keep the crossover point as low as possible in a 2-way to keep off-axis listening as flat as possible.

The Dyns exhibit the same thing as the Scans in the upper midrange, and that is a hump. That allows for a more detailed midrange. They still exhibit a drop off like any other driver the further off-axis you go. The Dyns do not somehow defy the laws of physics. If the argument were say Dyns against the Seas RNX series drivers, I'd say you have a valid argument. You picked the wrong driver in the Scans to state your off-axis argument. The Qts of the Scans being .36 does lend the driver to needing more of a controlled environment of the higher Qts standard car audio designed drivers. The Dyn MW162 has a Qts of .45 which still lends it to needing a controlled environment, and in reality isn't that much higher than the .36 of the Scans. In a well treated door, the difference will be negligible with the Scans coming out on top because of the much lower Fs. The Scans have an Fs of 28 hz, and the Dyns have an Fs of 55 hz. Again, points for the Scans.

Like FoxPro5 said, it's a big mix of fairly accurate and very inaccurate information. It's hard to know where to begin. You're relatively on the right track, but I think you've been misguided in the past by some people that accept common myths as fact.

xtremekustomz
08-02-2007, 09:23 PM
Watch madisound.com They sometimes put those things on sale half price. I hope I catch them when they do. Sure would be nice to get (2) 4.5" and (2) 7" for a little over $400

FoxPro5
08-03-2007, 02:04 AM
Watch madisound.com They sometimes put those things on sale half price. I hope I catch them when they do. Sure would be nice to get (2) 4.5" and (2) 7" for a little over $400

Great advice, but the most recent clear out of the Scans was for the 8 ohm shielded versions. They had about 170 pairs of them and they went very fast. Luckly I was able to snag a pair. So I wouldn't expect the 4 ohm version to be on sale...let alone anytime soon...but who knows??? It's hard to imagine a Carrera being suseptable to the laws of supply and demand.

And just an adjunct to MiniVan's comments on low end performace. I've owned some very nice midbass drivers and they've all done pretty well. However, NOTHING compares to these drivers yet IME. Why? I can't tell you because I don't care. I just know that my ears don't lie.

One thing I've realized is that you just cannot expect graph results once YOU install them. The car is not a lab, it's the field. These forums are great places to read about feedback from the field by those who provide personal feedback. Therefore comments such as "I read the Scans in an IB ****** ***" must be weighed on many many factors. So many factors, in fact, that the statement becomes almost worthless if you're trying to make any logical decision based off of it.

So, what it comes down to is TRIAL AND ERROR! :) Which is why I switch my equipment out faster than a nun in a ***** house! ;)

FoxPro5
08-03-2007, 02:08 AM
By all means tell me what I am off on. And no, I have not personally used them myself but I am going by the technical data and what some sq guys that use them have told me.



These drivers are made for home use for a sealed or AP enclosure. I didn't say they couldn't be used IB, but they sound better when done in an enclosure like they were designed for. They don't work well off axis above 2k. I'm going to be using them in my next setup but they are going to be in kick panels with the midbass in the floor. A door is the worst place for a speaker. I'd recommend trying out different locations before you mount the thing because no one can tell you where to put it because every car is different. Although I understand that the speakers are going in your doors no matter what...I would just recommend something that is more suited for your application.



Installation of your midrange is the most important part of the setup. Throwing a speaker in a door isn't going to give you the best imaginging, sound, or closest pathlengths possible. Quoted from Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own..... Keep in mind that the drivers he used were designed to work very well 35 degrees off axis that has a dip at 2k but levels back out and goes well beyond the midrange frequencies.



You want to keep all the sound bouncing around inside your enclosure to a minimum so the stronger and deadened the better. Preferably lined with clay. Build a weak undeadened enclosure and see what 100-125 hz sounds like.



Once again...the door is not a good place for a midrange. The only thing I would put in a door would be a straight midbass but even then I wouldn't like it. I can't even explain how much more realistic my Dyns sound after I put them in the kicks in an AP enclosure.


The dyn's are cheaper than the Scan Speak drivers and have a better off axis response beyond the 2k that the Scans have. You may actually want to look into the JBL 660GTI's. Like stated above, they work very well off axis for both listeners.

Oh....


My.....


Gawd!!!! :(

genxx
08-03-2007, 04:17 AM
xtremekustomz

Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own

I have read many of Biggs things. No where in there does he say anything about door speakers are not a good location. He is mearly stating that you have to do a good install. If you deadener the doors properly, seal what you can and all the little small things. For a dedicated mid-bass a door is very good.IMO If you are running a 3-way its pretty much your only option. Unless you plan on putting your mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter in all in the floor or kicks. Kicks could become a problem with trying to mount three drivers all together that close. Possible cancellation and phase issues. Looks like alot of tuning if you get it to sound rignt. 2-way yes Kicks are great if done right. Take a look at the pics FOXPRO posted he is using door locations.

You seem to be possibly a comp competetor. So I ask you this? The last car I competed with was a 2001 Jetta. My score sheets have some pretty **** good scores on them. I was able to RTA 32-33 several times also.(invited to worlds) The speakers where all mounted in the factory locations. Tweeters in the sails and mid in the door. Which was not the optimal location. Had no T/A and was not even active. I did have a good bit of EQ capability though. The truck I had did pretty good with the same basic install.(invite to worlds) So doors are not all that bad if you just take some time to do them properly.IMO Going by what you stated it should have sounded like A**. So explain to me how it sounded so good in the worst possible location.

You are making to many assumption based on just reading stuff and to many generalized statments. Its a car they are all different and many things are possible. You seem to like Biggs stuff alot. Look at his Regal quit interesting in many ways. Did you also check out the Rane in the trunk and read later that he was using basically something similiar to the new JBL MS-8 at one point. When talking about guys like Biggs or their cars remeber their cars where not daily drivers and everything under the sun has been modified. From the dash to the A/C. If I could afford to have a dedicated veh. for car audio and nothing else then it would be cool. Most people still need their vehicles for public transportation.

So giving a 150% on the install and same **** fine processing go's along way.

FoxPro5
08-03-2007, 03:07 PM
That's a very good point. You can't expect world class sound and performance on 4th grade car audio education. Not saying that to be offensive, but put the information in the contex of the person using it!

I personally love to read what Scott B has to say because he doesn't beat around the bush and will translate what his ears and experience have taught him. But, he does it in a civil matter and doesn't go down the arrogant *** route. :fro:

And I will also add, based on my experience with the Scans IB, is that somehow I got very little door resonance. You can see from the pics how much mass loading is there....not a ton, but enough. And still I was shocked how my doors hung in there. Not only that, but there was really no boominess on the top nor any muddyness on the bottom. Just not a lot of snap and and raw impact that feels like a sledge hammer to the sternum. BUT, my oh my...... Smooooooooth and loooooooow....kind of like having a home theater system in your car, actually. :)

For the first time EVER, I honestly could not locate my sub in the rear of the car...even dring heavy bass tracks that used to pull toward the rear. I attribute this to being able to cross these drivers over so low (and using the best sub in the world ;)). I could easly drop the HP down to 40hz, but then found that my stage seemed to sink to an undesirable level.

I'm currently attempting 8's in the doors and if I cannot get them to work, back to the Scan's I go!! :greedy:

its_bacon12
08-03-2007, 03:24 PM
why not get a more car suited driver and spend the effort on the install??

xtremekustomz
08-03-2007, 09:55 PM
xtremekustomz

I have read many of Biggs things. No where in there does he say anything about door speakers are not a good location. He is mearly stating that you have to do a good install. If you deadener the doors properly, seal what you can and all the little small things. For a dedicated mid-bass a door is very good.IMO If you are running a 3-way its pretty much your only option. Unless you plan on putting your mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter in all in the floor or kicks. Kicks could become a problem with trying to mount three drivers all together that close. Possible cancellation and phase issues. Looks like alot of tuning if you get it to sound rignt. 2-way yes Kicks are great if done right. Take a look at the pics FOXPRO posted he is using door locations.

First thing...I've got to remember is that not everyone is planning on competing. Anyway....on the judging part, from what I hear IASCA is going or has gone to 2 seat judging next year in every class other than rookie. To be judged 2 seat your pathlengths need to be close and I personally don't know of any vehicle where the pathlengts are within 6" of each other. That's not to say that their isn't one by any means, I just don't know of one. I know I get a small amount of water in my doors when it rains so that was another reason for trying to steer him clear from IB but his particular doors may be fine. I just hate to see someone spend that kind of money and regret it later down the road. As for FOXPRO's door panel installation...if you are going to to doors, that is the right way to do it. They look very solid and sealed.


You seem to be possibly a comp competetor. So I ask you this? The last car I competed with was a 2001 Jetta. My score sheets have some pretty **** good scores on them. I was able to RTA 32-33 several times also.(invited to worlds) The speakers where all mounted in the factory locations. Tweeters in the sails and mid in the door. Which was not the optimal location. Had no T/A and was not even active. I did have a good bit of EQ capability though. The truck I had did pretty good with the same basic install.(invite to worlds) So doors are not all that bad if you just take some time to do them properly.IMO Going by what you stated it should have sounded like A**. So explain to me how it sounded so good in the worst possible location.,

I'm not saying you can't get a good score with door midranges. The problem I personally had with a large driver in the door, no matter how solid I made the thing and how much deadener I used, is that my stage would drop if there was a drum or deep male voice on the left or right side. This was running the driver up to 900hz with the midrange and tweet in the kicks no more than 6" away. I know every driver is different and every vehicle is different but I hear alot of the same complaints and alot of competiors moving the midbass to the floor or kicks. Having said that...as a dedicated midbass driver...yeah, a door is fine. I had mine running from 40-160 in the doors and they sounded good there and my stage heigh was back to where it needed to be all the time, but it was a major difference when they got in the kicks. Depth increased dramitically and the drums were unbelieveable. At one time I had a Dyn System 360 in my doors and it sounded good but nothing like it does now. As for a door mounted mid, I said they would sound like a** if they weren't installed correctly as in the enclosures he was talking about building, you know, not built solid and sounding muddy. Either way...we know the mids are going in the doors and this guy may or may not have the processing capability to correct any problems he might have so lets help the guy figure out what he needs to do to get the best sound from the doors. I just see alot of people that buy a driver and not take the time to install it correctly and then say "These speakers sound awful" when it actually has alot to do with the installation. Like I said, it isn't that I don't think he can get a good sound from the doors but I just personally think it would sound better in the kicks which isn't going to happen so that is a dead point. :)


You are making too many assumption based on just reading stuff and to many generalized statments. Its a car they are all different and many things are possible. You seem to like Biggs stuff alot. Look at his Regal quit interesting in many ways. Did you also check out the Rane in the trunk and read later that he was using basically something similiar to the new JBL MS-8 at one point. When talking about guys like Biggs or their cars remeber their cars where not daily drivers and everything under the sun has been modified. From the dash to the A/C. If I could afford to have a dedicated veh. for car audio and nothing else then it would be cool. Most people still need their vehicles for public transportation.

So giving a 150% on the install and same **** fine processing go's along way.

I know the Regal was extensively modified. I'm willing to bet there are going to be alot of people using the MS-8 for competing now. Looks like it is going to be the way to go. Have they started selling them yet? I may even look into one when I start the next build.

xtremekustomz
08-03-2007, 10:02 PM
That's a very good point. You can't expect world class sound and performance on 4th grade car audio education. Not saying that to be offensive, but put the information in the contex of the person using it!

I personally love to read what Scott B has to say because he doesn't beat around the bush and will translate what his ears and experience have taught him. But, he does it in a civil matter and doesn't go down the arrogant *** route. :fro:

I was actually being serious when I was asking the question about what I was wrong about. I'm hoping that you aren't thinking that I'm trying to start an argument or anything like that or being "arrogant". I'm just speaking from my personal experience with large door mounted midrange drivers. I talked to Scott B. at the beginning of the year when I started my build and told him about the problem I was having with my midbass in the door and about it playing up to 900hz. Here is the "conversation"

Thanks Scott, I appreciate the prompt reply. I do have a
question for you. It isn't really on the subject of Hybrid Audio but I hope
you can help me out. I've got a 2000 Chevrolet Silverado truck. I have
the Dynaudio System 360 in it which consists of an 8" midbass (50
hz-900hz) 3" midrange (900hz-4500hz) and a 1.1" tweeter (4500hz up). I have
the midrange and the tweeter in the kick panel and the midbass in the
doors. My problem is that on certain things, my soundstage is pulled down
to even with the top of the door. I have been told that it is because
the frequency is too high on the midbass in the door and it tends to be
pulled down. I have a few options and wanted to know what you think
about it. I can either mount the midbass in the floor or either in the
kick panel. Doing the kick panel will require a little more work I think
because of the air space requirements.

Ah yes, that is in fact why you have a problem in the midrange
frequencies, it's because of the midbass location. Putting the midbass as
physically close as possible to the midrange will help immensely. If you
can even put them on the same plane as the midrange, even better. But if not,
get them close. Because of the dispersion pattern of the midbass, and at
the frequencies you're asking it to play, aiming is not super
critical, but is at the very least important. Everything below around 1,000 Hz is
time dominant, so getting them down there will help with imaging quite a bit.
I'd spend the extra time and get them angled just right in each kick panel,
verses in the floor, because a phenomenon might occur that the
images will wander left to right on male vocals if the midbass is in the
center of the floor...so as the male vocalist's pitch changes from high to
low, for example, his voice will wander between the two speakers. This is
precisely why we built a midrange that can play to 200 Hz rather eaily, so
placement of the midbass is not nearly as critical.
Scott

Well..I think I have decided to build a dash. I'm planning on
getting my old dash out within the next few weeks and seeing what room I
have to work with. I want to keep my ac and defroster because I will
still be driving the truck alot. In the case that I am building a new dash,
would I get better overall results from placing the speakers in the
dash? What I have been thinking about doing maybe is still doing the
midbass in the kick panel area but taking the midrange and tweeter and
putting them in the dash or either just the midrange in the dash and
tweeter on the A pillar. I hate to go through all the trouble of building a
dash and not have it used for part of my sound. My thoughts on the dash
are to have the speakers as far away as possible from the listener.
Probably having a grille that covers up the parts of the dash where the
speakers are so you can't see them. One good thing about the midrange is
that it is completely closed off so there is no need for an
enclosure. Your thoughs on doing any of this? I just want to have
the best sound possible. I will also be using the Alpine H701 processor
so I will have alot of control with everything as well as being able
to use an amp per speaker set. 1 for midbass, 1 for midrange, and 1 for
tweeter.


This sounds like a great idea, and I am all for it. I can't tell you where
the speakers will need to go, but having the ability to put them anywhere is
a big plus. My suggestion is to pop the dash off and look around under
there. The locations will become more obvioous once you see what resides
below the dash cover. Keeping the AC and defroster shouldn't be a problem, especially with such small speakers for the front stage. And yes, the midbass in the kicks is a solid move. Looking forward to hearing how this goes. Send photos and ideas and I'll help you decide on a few preliminary spots for the mids and
tweeters to go.
Scott

I'm not using the dyn md140 or the md100's that came with the set in my truck right now. I even moved the md140 and tweet right beside the midbass and still had a problem with the stage lowering. I tried my hardest (without pulling the ac and heater out) to get my truck to image well from both seats but I couldn't get the pathlengths close enough so I made it a 1 seater. The next one I do will be a 2 seater but it definately won't be a daily driver.


And I will also add, based on my experience with the Scans IB, is that somehow I got very little door resonance. You can see from the pics how much mass loading is there....not a ton, but enough. And still I was shocked how my doors hung in there. Not only that, but there was really no boominess on the top nor any muddyness on the bottom. Just not a lot of snap and and raw impact that feels like a sledge hammer to the sternum. BUT, my oh my...... Smooooooooth and loooooooow....kind of like having a home theater system in your car, actually. :)
I have nothing at all against the Scan drivers. My main concern was putting them in the door and having water get on them. Like I said, I am going to be using them on my next install. I've heard alot of great things about those drivers. I almost ordered some of the 4's to use for this install but I was already spent out LOL


For the first time EVER, I honestly could not locate my sub in the rear of the car...even dring heavy bass tracks that used to pull toward the rear. I attribute this to being able to cross these drivers over so low (and using the best sub in the world ;)). I could easly drop the HP down to 40hz, but then found that my stage seemed to sink to an undesirable level.

I love not hearing bass coming from the rear of a vehicle. I haven't heard many that you couldn't tell at some point. I've got my sub in the front now :)


I'm currently attempting 8's in the doors and if I cannot get them to work, back to the Scan's I go!! :greedy:

What 8 are you trying to use?

FoxPro5
08-03-2007, 10:42 PM
I was actually being serious when I was asking the question about what I was wrong about. I'm hoping that you aren't thinking that I'm trying to start an argument or anything like that or being "arrogant".

No, I wasn't referring to you as being arrogant man. :) I was speaking about some competitors that are, unfortunately.

And your convo with Scott exemplifies my whole point exactly. I had the L3's for awhile and he provides excellent customer support for his products....and I didn't even buy them from Hybrid.

It sounds like both you and I are willing to take those extra steps needed to get the best out of our vehicles. But, I don't think the OP is in that postition. Maybe so? He didn't really say.



I love not hearing bass coming from the rear of a vehicle. I haven't heard many that you couldn't tell at some point. I've got my sub in the front now :) It's my personal barometer to see how well I've tuned the car. Odly enough, with my midbass out at the moment and the midranges playing down to 200hz with a steep slope and the sub playing up to 125hz...I still get very decent up front impact and realism. :naughty:


What 8 are you trying to use?
Lotus, of course. :graduate:

genxx
08-04-2007, 05:58 AM
xtremekustomz- I think me and you are referring to alot of the same stuff. I am much like you. I do not know everything only things I have tried. I agree the next car that I work on will be kicks with the mid-bass in the doors for a 3-way. I do prefer kicks if you are going all out. For the daily driver most guys are just not going to go that far with it.

I hope no one took what I was saying about being a competitor as being arrogant. Nor was I ever anywhere near as good as any of the big boys or really serious competitors. I did it for fun for a few years nothing more. I have not been around any of it for about 6 years. I have no clue what the standards are now or how anything is judged any more. I just do it as a hobby now. I only put it out there that I had competed because it seemed xtremekustomz was in that scene. So was just trying to view it from a competitors view.

FoxPro-Lotus FTW. I miss my Lotus 8's. I cannot believe I sold them and wish I had them back.

FoxPro5
08-04-2007, 11:32 AM
FoxPro-Lotus FTW. I miss my Lotus 8's. I cannot believe I sold them and wish I had them back.

Hehe, these WERE yours. :) A quick review. The Assman (Peter) originally bought them from a guy on ebay (who was from MN, ironically). Used them for a bit and then sold them to you. You sold them to Robert and then I bought them from him. Not sure if either of you actually installed them, but my guess is that you didn't. Either way, the Lotus's are back home and on the TEAM where they belong. They just had a brief tour around the US .... :laugh:

genxx
08-04-2007, 02:15 PM
Yep thats sounds about right. I stared at them on R&R from the desert. I tested them and that was it. I had to sell them because I need cash to pick up several things I needed more. I was trying to come up with the cash to buy them back but it just was not in the cards.LMAO

You will put them to good use and get the best out of them. I wonder if Peter ever wishes he had them back. He switched to the Rainbow briefly IIRC but I think he changed them out already.

Have to give a really good review on here and please on DIYMA after you get them all installed. A comparison the Scan-Rev would be awsome. Please

FoxPro5
08-04-2007, 03:13 PM
Yep thats sounds about right. I stared at them on R&R from the desert. I tested them and that was it. I had to sell them because I need cash to pick up several things I needed more. I was trying to come up with the cash to buy them back but it just was not in the cards.LMAO

You will put them to good use and get the best out of them. I wonder if Peter ever wishes he had them back. He switched to the Rainbow briefly IIRC but I think he changed them out already.

Have to give a really good review on here and please on DIYMA after you get them all installed. A comparison the Scan-Rev would be awsome. Please

Right on. I'm in the build process right now. I'll be sure to make several comparisons and do a nice review on them. But I don't really post here...just saw this tread on DIY and felt the need to help this guy. You can see my build progress and look for my review on EMSQ (http://sqdiy.s10.forumsplace.com/) if you'd like.