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AuX
07-20-2007, 11:29 AM
This is what I have just wondering do I need an amp or will it be fine just off the head unit?

Head unit: Pioneer DEH-P5850MP
Speakers: Pioneer 6"x9" 300 watt TS-A6962E
& Pioneer 160 watt 6.5" 2-Way Speaker TS-G1641R

Links
DEH-P5850MP (http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/car_entertainment/CD_Tuners/DEHP5850MP/index.html)
TS-G1641R (http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/car_entertainment/Speakers/TS_G_Speaker_Range/TSG1641R/index.html)
TS-A6962E (http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/car_entertainment/Speakers/TS_A_Speaker_Range/TSA6962E/index.html)

OoMesKoO
07-20-2007, 11:36 AM
Dude... Always amp up a set of aftermarket speakers.

DejaWiz
07-20-2007, 11:38 AM
Can you find the TS-D / REV series for reasonable (eBay or whatever)?

AuX
07-20-2007, 11:40 AM
Dude... Always amp up a set of aftermarket speakers.

What amps should I be looking at :\ I'm afraid car audio isn't my strong point at all so I can only learn though :D if my budget doesn't stretch to allow me to get an amp just yet what results can I expect just lower quality sound?

Prowler573
07-20-2007, 11:42 AM
He's already got speakers, DejaWiz ~ buying more speakers wouldn't be especially helpful here, I don't think...


AuX ~
Yes, you can power those speakers off of your HU and likely they'll sound somewhat better than the OEM speakers that they replaced.
To get the real performance that they are capable of, however, you're going to want to go with an external amplifier rather than the smallish one in your headunit as the 15-20 watts per channel of clean power your headunit is capable of simply isn't up to the task of extracting the full potential from your aftermarket speakers. :)

AuX
07-20-2007, 11:45 AM
Can you find the TS-D / REV series for reasonable (eBay or whatever)?
I don't use ebay.

I can't afford them
http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/car_entertainment/Speakers/TS_D_Speaker_Range/TSD691S/index.html
basically what I brought was the best I could do with the money I could afford to spend on car audio, I tried to get the best head unit for the $ I had and some ok speakers that will tire me over until I can afford to spend money on higher quality ones.

DejaWiz
07-20-2007, 11:46 AM
He's already got speakers, DejaWiz ~ buying more speakers wouldn't be especially helpful here, I don't think...


Ahh shoot! This morning, reading > me apparently.

Sorry AUX, I thought you were about to buy the speakers you listed in the first post.

I'd follow the advice of Prowler, even a smallish amp (say, 4x50w rms) can make a world of difference.

AuX
07-20-2007, 11:48 AM
He's already got speakers, DejaWiz ~ buying more speakers wouldn't be especially helpful here, I don't think...


AuX ~
Yes, you can power those speakers off of your HU and likely they'll sound somewhat better than the OEM speakers that they replaced.
To get the real performance that they are capable of, however, you're going to want to go with an external amplifier rather than the smallish one in your headunit as the 15-20 watts per channel of clean power your headunit is capable of simply isn't up to the task of extracting the full potential from your aftermarket speakers. :)
I think in the specs for the model I brought it's 22 watts on this model.

I can't really afford to be spending more and buy a amp right now, how much work and would it be very easy to add a decent amp latter on? and what would I need for what I have now?

AuX
07-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Ahh shoot! This morning, reading > me apparently.

Sorry AUX, I thought you were about to buy the speakers you listed in the first post.

I'd follow the advice of Prowler, even a smallish amp (say, 4x50w rms) can make a world of difference.

It's ok :)

So I will keep an eye out for a amp and if I can spend the $ I will buy one but what do I need to look for in labeling etc. I'm not sure what I would need to buy :\ so look for a 4x50w rms one? and can I go ahead and install it now and add the amp easily latter?

DejaWiz
07-20-2007, 11:57 AM
Not sure if Profile amps are available for a very reasonable price where you are, but they are decent budget amp to do near their rated RMS power.

AuX
07-20-2007, 12:03 PM
Not sure if Profile amps are available for a very reasonable price where you are, but they are decent budget amp to do near their rated RMS power.
Australia don't think I have seen them, I know I saw one of these in a catalog for about the same price http://www.oo.com.au/SONY_Xplod_2_Channel_AB_Amplif_P1911C447.cfm
should have a few catalogs come tomorrow.

Just one question I would really like to know is it easy to add one latter? and just make do with how they are off the head unit for now.

Thanks everyone for the help so far I do appreciate it :)

EDIT: This is the best list online I can find http://www.ryda.com.au/Car-Amplifiers-Store-s/9.htm anything there I should be able to get locally pick the lowest price amp that is decent and one or 2 up that would allow future expansion and I will have to have a serious think about it.

konechiwa
07-20-2007, 12:09 PM
don't buy that amp.


It's not that hard to add one on later. They'll work off the head-unit until you can afford an amp.

Prowler573
07-20-2007, 12:16 PM
I think in the specs for the model I brought it's 22 watts on this model.
22 watts per channel of RMS output is a pretty common rating for the internal amp contained within a headunit. Many different decks (including the one I run) have a like wattage rating. But the percentage of distortion contained in the output signal at that level of wattage is generally pretty high and it's a safe bet to assume that your deck is only outputting 15-20 watts of clean power per channel. This is a generalization which, like all others, has its exceptions but it's safe enough to follow as a rule of thumb.


I can't really afford to be spending more and buy a amp right now, how much work and would it be very easy to add a decent amp latter on? and what would I need for what I have now? You certainly are in no way the first and I'll guarantee not the last person wanting some 'better than factory' tunes in their ride but are somewhat hamstrung by a really tight budget. Nothing to be ashamed of there, for sure!
Would it be easy to add an amp later? That depends on your definition of easy, really. An external amplifier requires power cable, ground connection cable, a lead that comes off the back of your headunit that tells it to turn on and off (typically referred to as the remote turn-on lead) and then speaker wire which will go from the amp to each speaker that it is amplifying ~ 4 speakers total in your case.
We don't know what you drive so there's no way to guess how hard it would be to run all the necessary wiring in your specific example.
Also - because of the odd (to us) model number for your Pioneer CD player I have to assume that you aren't in the states? With that in mind it is entirely possible that you drive a vehicle that isn't familiar to us at all so we'd really be guessing if we tried to tell you how easy or hard installing an amp in there might be!

Generally, though, it isn't actually difficult, per se, simply time-consuming.

You can goto www.crutchfield.com (http://www.crutchfield.com.....type) and type in Learning Center in the search bar - and then have a look around for the various installation videos they have posted there. They make for a pretty decent "how to" for beginners. :)





Edit: I just saw that you're in Oz.
Which state?
My wife lives in SA (and so will I once all the immigration paperwork gets sorted which is a complete pain in the *** and incredibly time-consuming in its own right :mad:)

AuX
07-20-2007, 12:22 PM
don't buy that amp.


It's not that hard to add one on later. They'll work off the head-unit until you can afford an amp.

I had no plans to buy that one just with the catalogs I have now (I chucked out a lot) think that's the only amp listed in them, I should have a few catalogs come in tomorrow and I will see what they have.

I think though at this stage I will have to leave it and just use the head unit and latter add a decent amp and go from there.

Never know though I might get lucky and pick up a decent amp on sale or something, can anyone make recommendations on models etc. to keep an eye out for that aren't expensive but not garbage.

Prowler573
07-20-2007, 12:27 PM
It's kind of tough to make recommendations for a specific amp for you as many things that are commonplace here may or may not be available to you there in Australia.

For example - I'm a huge fan of Diamond Audio gear but as far as I know it isn't available to you lot over there unless you buy it from a source here and have it shipped overseas to you...

AuX
07-20-2007, 12:33 PM
22 watts per channel of RMS output is a pretty common rating for the internal amp contained within a headunit. Many different decks (including the one I run) have a like wattage rating. But the percentage of distortion contained in the output signal at that level of wattage is generally pretty high and it's a safe bet to assume that your deck is only outputting 15-20 watts of clean power per channel. This is a generalization which, like all others, has its exceptions but it's safe enough to follow as a rule of thumb.

You certainly are in no way the first and I'll guarantee not the last person wanting some 'better than factory' tunes in their ride but are somewhat hamstrung by a really tight budget. Nothing to be ashamed of there, for sure!
Would it be easy to add an amp later? That depends on your definition of easy, really. An external amplifier requires power cable, ground connection cable, a lead that comes off the back of your headunit that tells it to turn on and off (typically referred to as the remote turn-on lead) and then speaker wire which will go from the amp to each speaker that it is amplifying ~ 4 speakers total in your case.
We don't know what you drive so there's no way to guess how hard it would be to run all the necessary wiring in your specific example.
Also - because of the odd (to us) model number for your Pioneer CD player I have to assume that you aren't in the states? With that in mind it is entirely possible that you drive a vehicle that isn't familiar to us at all so we'd really be guessing if we tried to tell you how easy or hard installing an amp in there might be!

Generally, though, it isn't actually difficult, per se, simply time-consuming.

You can goto www.crutchfield.com (http://www.crutchfield.com.....type) and type in Learning Center in the search bar - and then have a look around for the various installation videos they have posted there. They make for a pretty decent "how to" for beginners. :)





Edit: I just saw that you're in Oz.
Which state?
My wife lives in SA (and so will I once all the immigration paperwork gets sorted which is a complete pain in the *** and incredibly time-consuming in its own right :mad:)

I drive a Ford Laser 1994 KH model

I'm in QLD

So it might be a bit of fiddling around latter but still ok to do :) well that ok even with out the amp what I have now and soon to be going in my car will have to sound a lot better then the stock 1 blown left speaker, right you barely know it's there rears are working normally and just the factory cassette radio installed.

EDIT: Thank you for the info and the site etc. :)

AuX
07-20-2007, 12:35 PM
It's kind of tough to make recommendations for a specific amp for you as many things that are commonplace here may or may not be available to you there in Australia.

For example - I'm a huge fan of Diamond Audio gear but as far as I know it isn't available to you lot over there unless you buy it from a source here and have it shipped overseas to you...
fair enough :)
Well this is the best I can do to show you online what's available http://www.ryda.com.au/Car-Amplifiers-Store-s/9.htm plus than whatever the local stores can get etc. but I will just have to go in and look sometime soon.

Prowler573
07-20-2007, 12:52 PM
Okay - what Ford marketed as a Laser there was sold as an Escort here (same car as yours excepting the obvious difference of yours being right-hand drive whereas the Escort stateside was left-hand drive) so that's a vehicle many here are going to be familiar with. :)

I've never been to QLD, sadly. I've been to NSW for the very minimal experience of routing through Sydney's airport en route to Adelaide and I've been to Vic when the wife and I went to Melbourne to visit some people...

Mrs Prowler has an uncle that lives in Brisbane, though, so I'm sure I'll eventually get to see your fine state. :)

AuX
07-20-2007, 01:24 PM
Okay - what Ford marketed as a Laser there was sold as an Escort here (same car as yours excepting the obvious difference of yours being right-hand drive whereas the Escort stateside was left-hand drive) so that's a vehicle many here are going to be familiar with. :)

I've never been to QLD, sadly. I've been to NSW for the very minimal experience of routing through Sydney's airport en route to Adelaide and I've been to Vic when the wife and I went to Melbourne to visit some people...

Mrs Prowler has an uncle that lives in Brisbane, though, so I'm sure I'll eventually get to see your fine state. :)

glad to know it's a car many on here will be familiar with :)

Well I'm sure you will make it to QLD someday :)




My it's getting on to the early hrs here 2:50am I'm off to bed thanks for the help today everyone :)

kross
07-20-2007, 03:26 PM
Well, if you have to, you can buy from some online sites that will ship to Australia. sonicelectronix.com, woofersetc.com, and others will do so. I have no idea how much it will cost for shipping, import tarrifs, etc.

But there are plently of 4-channel, 60w RMS per channel amps available online for about $120 USD, or about $137 AUD, plus shipping, etc.

AuX
07-21-2007, 02:19 AM
Just something I'm slightly confused on is the power out put of amplifiers :emb: now can you get to powerful? for what you have or not :confused: or it like you have speakers, subs etc. and it needs x amount of power and you have a 600 watt amp it just draws what it needs yes?

I feel silly asking this but :emb: I just need to clear this up I forget how I became confused must of read or heard something I'm not sure.

Prowler573
07-21-2007, 04:15 AM
Yes, you can certainly get too powerful.

You wouldn't want to try and power a set of tweeters that need no more than 50w, ever, with a 150w per channel amplifier. You wouldn't want to power a set of midrange drivers that aren't made for more than 100w or so with 500w. You wouldn't want to drive an entry-level subwoofer that only wants 200-250w and no more with a 1kW+ monoblock. Unhappy results will soon be had.

No - an amp won't simply draw what is needed by the driver in question and hold the rest of its output capability in reserve. That would be a nice feature, now that I think about it, and make the amplifier-buying decision considerably less complicated...I digress.

An amp is designed to output X amount of wattage at Y level of resistance. The values of X and Y, obviously, will vary from one amp to the next.

What you'll want to do is take a look at the RMS input wattage ratings on whatever speakers you're wanting to amplify. In your case, naturally, we're speaking of the Pioneer 6x9s and 6.5" speakers as listed in the opening post.
Your 6x9s have an RMS input rating of 40w each.
Your 6.5" 2-ways have an RMS rating of 30w each.

So you need an amp that does no more than 35-50w per channel. That matches the wattage ratings on your speakers well enough without going so far over the needed level of power as to be detrimental to the speakers.

AuX
07-21-2007, 04:49 AM
Yes, you can certainly get too powerful.

You wouldn't want to try and power a set of tweeters that need no more than 50w, ever, with a 150w per channel amplifier. You wouldn't want to power a set of midrange drivers that aren't made for more than 100w or so with 500w. You wouldn't want to drive an entry-level subwoofer that only wants 200-250w and no more with a 1kW+ monoblock. Unhappy results will soon be had.

No - an amp won't simply draw what is needed by the driver in question and hold the rest of its output capability in reserve. That would be a nice feature, now that I think about it, and make the amplifier-buying decision considerably less complicated...I digress.

An amp is designed to output X amount of wattage at Y level of resistance. The values of X and Y, obviously, will vary from one amp to the next.

What you'll want to do is take a look at the RMS input wattage ratings on whatever speakers you're wanting to amplify. In your case, naturally, we're speaking of the Pioneer 6x9s and 6.5" speakers as listed in the opening post.
Your 6x9s have an RMS input rating of 40w each.
Your 6.5" 2-ways have an RMS rating of 30w each.

So you need an amp that does no more than 35-50w per channel. That matches the wattage ratings on your speakers well enough without going so far over the needed level of power as to be detrimental to the speakers.

:) that clears that up thank you for the explanation, so does that mean you have about 15 watts headroom when matching amps to speakers?

Prowler573
07-21-2007, 05:10 AM
:) that clears that up thank you for the explanation, so does that mean you have about 15 watts headroom when matching amps to speakers?
The 15 watts difference in the input capabilites for your speakers and the output I suggested you be looking for in an amp is no specific benchmark to guide you in all amplifier buying decisions.

It was a general suggestion because 35w ~ 50w per channel output is a common value to be able to find.
It's also pretty common to find a 4ch amp in the neighborhood of 75w ~ 100w per channel output but that level of power wouldn't be appropriate for the gear you're running.

By way of contrast an amp that makes 15w per channel or 20w up to about 30w per channel isn't particularly common anymore as the internal amps in headunits make that much juice (or close to it) nowadays so there'd be no market for such a thing to very many buyers.

AuX
07-21-2007, 05:20 AM
:) ok I understand that then.

genxx
07-21-2007, 06:05 AM
This is off topic: Brisbane rocks, also surfer paradise and the gold coast. I loved Australia. Awsome place to live. Spent 5 weeks there. Brisbane is my fav place I have been in Australia.

Sorry, just don't see to many people that know where Brisbane is. My apologies for thread dumping.

Prowler573
07-21-2007, 06:10 AM
Well, I reckon the OP knows where it is since it's in his state and it isn't a little bitty town...

More people (non-Aussies) have at least heard of Brisbane than have Adelaide where Mrs Prowler lives.
I was freggin amazed when Death By Bass joined the forum because that's where he lives too - in Adelaide.
No "CrowEater" remarks from you, either, AuX! :laugh:

genxx
07-21-2007, 06:15 AM
I was talking about you Prowler not the OP. I know what QLD stands for and where it is.

AuX
07-21-2007, 07:48 AM
Well, I reckon the OP knows where it is since it's in his state and it isn't a little bitty town...

More people (non-Aussies) have at least heard of Brisbane than have Adelaide where Mrs Prowler lives.
I was freggin amazed when Death By Bass joined the forum because that's where he lives too - in Adelaide.
No "CrowEater" remarks from you, either, AuX! :laugh:
:laugh: croweater, I can say that didn't come to mind.

I sure do know where Brisbane is :laugh:

AuX
07-22-2007, 05:25 AM
head unit is installed along with the front speakers :) and I'm happy with them both :) 6x9's are also in the parcel shelf now and ready to be connected will get that done next weekend and then I'm set :)

rockinguitar876
07-23-2007, 12:05 PM
are ya'll sure that they need to be amped because with stock speakers, u turn it up with just an aftermarket radio and they start to distort when they are up loud

DejaWiz
07-23-2007, 12:10 PM
are ya'll sure that they need to be amped because with stock speakers, u turn it up with just an aftermarket radio and they start to distort when they are up loud

I'd highly recommend it.

When speakers are powered by the HU's internal amps, the distortion rate is MUCH higher than an external amplifer (5% vs about 0.1% at higher volumes).

AuX
07-28-2007, 03:42 AM
Well it's all connected and set up and I'm happy it quite a vast improvement over what I had :D :veryhapp: now down the track I will add a amp at some stage but to then it's certainly going to keep me happy :)

kross
07-28-2007, 07:34 PM
are ya'll sure that they need to be amped because with stock speakers, u turn it up with just an aftermarket radio and they start to distort when they are up loud

It's the amp that's distorting, not the speakers. Well at least with decent speakers. Stock speakers usually ****.