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1loudsuv
06-24-2007, 01:54 AM
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_274&products_id=387

anyone ever hear that setup? are they any good?

thinking of dropping my def tech but like ive said I am really really gonna look at what is out their. I dunno but before I even bought my current towers ive had my eyes on that kit and I hear allot of sq guys use those drivers.

1loudsuv
06-24-2007, 01:55 AM
on yah and if I get them is this crossover recommended or should i stick to the one the set comes with?

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_274&products_id=390

thylantyr
06-24-2007, 02:25 PM
I never heard the kit but those are high end Seas drivers. Because it's high end
doesn't guarantee SQ, but you can place this kit on your list of candidates. I would use their crossover.

I never heard this design, but they use my favorite midrange vendor, PHL.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Phlea.html

[FYI, I chose PHL over Seas for my high end stuff]

PHL1280 is similar to PHL1240 {16 ohm} which is the same as PHL1340 {8 ohm}.
I haven't used that particular model, but I used others. I know someone who
made a system on PHL1340 and compared it to the same design using Seas Excel.

His conclusion was the PHL has a better top end, but the Seas Excel has a slight
edge in bass. Overall, he seemed to prefer PHL.

More kits;
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/


If you want to get deeper and make a 3 way [sub not included], a bigger
tower, fully active, this general recipe is great. But sourcing the special
wideband woofers isn't so easy. Perhaps I could find some alternatives.

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=191130

Shortcut;
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/home_page1.html

I talked to the dad via email 3+ years ago. They auditioned so many commercial
speakers and couldn't find anything sweet, hence they gambled on a DIY project.
He was thrill with the design, nothing can touch it as far as he as concerned. They
were also buying some Pass Labs X-amps at the time and adding an LT subwoofer.

Another using that recipe {ribbon, dual PHL mids, dual 15"}
http://feandil.tripod.com/finished_pics/index.album?i=5
[Ignore the source diagram, he never did that. IIRC, he used QSC RMX amps
with DBX $500 signal processing and Marantz]. He also auditioned high end
system prior to the build and he even auditioned Wilson Audio and Kharma.
He thinks that design is superior to what he hear in the store. :)

AR3's system is also unique, AC ribbon, PHL 10" midrange and Lambda woofer.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21523

AR3's system was conceived by Andre @ E-speakers, the same guy who hooked
me up with the PHL product.

It's funny that his design mimmicks my general idea to use those combinations.
[Because it's uber :) ]

In all cases, the cabinet design can be what you want. The basic recipe is uber
as long as you go active and source the wideband woofers and run a dedicated
separate subwoofer.

thylantyr
06-24-2007, 04:11 PM
A lower cost MTM design with different crossover variations

http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html

"RS180 MTM Crossover Comparison - Six different crossover versions for an MTM design using the Dayton Reference Series RS180 woofer and RS28a tweeter based on the cabinet for the Dr. K MTM project. Crossovers include RJB Audio 2 way, RJB Audio 2.5 way, Dr. K MTM, Modula MTM, dB and Natalie designs with an interactive response plot display."

Dr. K's
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dr-k-mtm/index.html

Modulas and Natalie are found on HTguide forum

.. and RJB has his own crossover design.

1loudsuv
06-24-2007, 04:15 PM
let me add :)

I don't know jack squat in building crossovers :)

hempy
06-24-2007, 05:34 PM
Why is that kit so expensive?? The woofers are like $20, and even though the tweeters are like 200, I don't seem to understand why it costs so much, especially without cabinets. The crossovers look like they use pretty common components...

1loudsuv
06-24-2007, 06:00 PM
Why is that kit so expensive?? The woofers are like $20, and even though the tweeters are like 200, I don't seem to understand why it costs so much, especially without cabinets. The crossovers look like they use pretty common components...

In which set the one I posted originally? IF so they are not $20 try closer to $200 per woofer.


http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id=782

hempy
06-24-2007, 09:01 PM
In which set the one I posted originally? IF so they are not $20 try closer to $200 per woofer.


http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id=782

Ohh. I was looking at the shielded upgrade and thought it was the price of the woofer. :p:

thylantyr
06-24-2007, 10:59 PM
let me add :)

I don't know jack squat in building crossovers :)

Building as in "I don't know how to design a crossover"

or

building as "I don't know how to solder the crossover parts?"

The cyber kits have crossover design already and crossover assembly isn't hard either, practice soldering on junk wires.

The esoteric DIY 3 way designs would be best with an active setup, no passive
crossovers. You can use a $120 analog crossover or the much better $250 digital
crossover and you need some extra amp channels. Adjusting the crossover is easy.

It's easier to mix and match drivers with an active design, less design variables
to worry about. Just apply some common sense and you are up and running with
high SQ.

For instance, if you chose an active crossover that has 8th order crossover slope,
this pretty much guarantees that you can use any combination of drivers,
even the high end Seas, Focal, etc. with exotic cone materials that have
performance problems that yield to bad sound if you don't tame the cone
breakup modes.. rofl ... You can even use *some* harsh metal dome tweeters...

On the other hand, if your active crossover was limited to 2nd order, you might
want to buy non-metal dome tweeters, and paper treated midranges like PHL
which have less problems. But if you have 8th order, you can use almost any
driver combinations.

.. or you can ditch these high end ideas and rule planet earth and
make a line array, it's only extra time & money :suicide: :cool: :laugh:

There is a B&C 'pure mid' that looks interesting, 1/2 of the cost of PHL,
but I never got a chance to audition them. Recently I got word from someone
who did and they really like the sound.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-650

They claim it's cone treated.

IMO, paper treated mids have best sound over fancy materials.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-651

thylantyr
06-24-2007, 11:19 PM
Ribbon tweeter sound

3 way;
LCY ribbon {for wider dispersion}
PHL 1120 {or Audax PR170M0, B&C mid}
Lambda caliber 12" - 15" woofer

-- add seperate subwoofer

2 way TMM;
LCY ribbon {for wider dispersion}
Dual PHL 1240 {for 8 ohm wiring, or dual PHL1340 for 4 ohm wiring}

-- add seperate subwoofer

Higher dynamics/SPL
Fountek NeoPro5i
PHL2520 8" mid or PHL 3450
Dual Lambda caliber 15" woofer

Ultimate uber
Line A http://www.impawards.com/2004/posters/ray_ver3.jpg


There are so many good combinations for uber speakers with an active rig :)

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 01:01 AM
So if you had 3-4 grand to spend what would you get? need a matching center and l/r. no line arrays I dont like how they look lol I am not looking for high ouput just pure sq. I will have a separate sub.

I was on audiogon a while ago and their was a good amount of towers and bookshelfs using those seas drivers costing from 4 grand to 15 grand for a pair of used speakers!

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 01:18 AM
oh yah what active crossover do you recomend? it has to be able to run the center and left and right speakers. outlaw i think had one?

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 01:23 PM
Pure SQ?.............. headphones :fro:

What I do is buy interesting drivers and learn how they perform, then you
can start to visualize a design that interests you. I really don't know what
you will like, nobody does. You can audition store speakers to get a baseline
idea on what you want.

You can choose a basic recipe, TM, TMM, MTM, TMW, WMTMW, etc., and try
to find driver candidates for the job at hand. Then condense your list and
buy some driver samples. You don't need to buy two of the same drivers,
just buy at least 3 - 4 unique tweeters and mids. Sample the drivers as is.
Unused drivers can be sold or reused for another project. This is how I would do
tackle a project but it's a different approach than other DIY'ers.

It's not a cheap methodology, but I get results because if you sample enough
drivers you will understand them and know right away what you like. You can do
a mono {not stereo} audition just to understand it's sonic character, just
buy one of each driver candidate.

A Behringer DCX2496 will be a great development tool so you can figure out
how the drivers perform and you can use it in the final install if you want.
It's a 3 way digital crossover. You can use it for L/R mains, up to 3 way design.
You can make a tweeter, midrange, woofer design and one DCX will cross it over.
If you want a 2 way, then you don't use the second pair of outputs.

If you want an active center channel then you need another active crossover
or a crossover with more outputs. An HT active install will get crazy as you need
more active crossover outputs and amp channels, but you have complete control
over the sound as you can adjust everything; crossover frequency, gain, PEQ,
delays, plus you can store these settings in different memory locations if you
want to create different sonic profiles. My line array has 12 profiles for different
listening scenarios.

DCX cons: It has no master volume control. Your source needs to control the
volume *OR* you need to control the volume on the output side of all the
DCX outputs. Some people actually do this with esoteric configurations. I think
they are panic freaks. DCX can AES/EBU digital *or* it can take SPDIF if you
buy a $20 SPDIF-AES converter transformer {Canare}, but you still need to
control the volume. I use a Roland M1000 mixer only because it has a digital
volume control. But that unit is discontinued.

My two mains;
Player->M1000->DCX->Amps->speakers

DCX accepts analog input but because it's a pro unit, it likes a strong
XLR signal from an XLR source, for example some home receivers have XLR
output {IIRC B&K, Anthem, etc}, a preamp like Parasound Halo has XLR output,
these outputs with higher voltage are nice for a DCX. But it's not mandatory,
you can use a cheap RCA to XLR adapter and still run the system but you drive
the DCX with a lower input voltage, it works but not as great as the other solution.

If you want a simple home system then these ideas might be too crazy,
you probably need to just build some kits with passive crossovers and
be done with it.

Wildcard:
We know what store bought speakers can be very expensive to get
great sound and if you didn't want to DIY, then I'd probably use some of
the internet builders to make me a system, but it could cost more than your
budget, you will get a much better value than store bought speakers. You
can drop $5k on a pair of store speakers and you may feel robbed,
but you can drop that money on certain builders and feel better about the
purchase.

Example;
http://www.selahaudio.com/

Floorstanding;
I like the RC4 design. Good recipe. I don't think you will find a store speaker
using this caliber of driver for that price. I will estimate this system would
probably cost $15k or more if you found it in the store.
http://www.selahaudio.com/id67.html

Monitors;
http://www.selahaudio.com/id53.html

Salk has nice stuff.
http://www.salksound.com/

snip..

"Normally, speakers of this quality retail from $12000.00 to $20,000.00 or more per pair. But because these are custom-crafted and you are purchasing direct, you can expect to pay considerably less. HT3 pricing starts at $3899.00 per pair. "

Others to check out.
http://www.rawacoustics.com/
http://www.gr-research.com/


Some of these vendors have kits which is probably just drivers and crossovers,
you have to make the box. I would assume they have the box plans to give out.

Summary:

1. Store speakers - Could cost you big money to get the sound you want,
go audition stuff to get an idea where you stand.

2. Internet vendors like the ones I linked - Either kit {you build the box} or
they build the completed system. Better value than store speakers because
you cut out the middleman.

3. Cyber kits - You can just cloning premade designs published in cyber. This is
a good choice.

4. Your own DIY design - More time and more money because you have to
cherry pick the drivers that you like.

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 01:55 PM
Did you read Zaph's driver tests {scroll down}
http://www.zaphaudio.com/

If you wanted to DIY, fully active, then choose your driver samples wisely
to mimimize costs. Start with tweeters and work down.

Tweeter tests.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

Chose the ones that seem interesting and buy one of each for sampling.

Or... just take Zaph's word and pick the best bang for buck tweeter.

For tweeters I'd probably look for ones that can hang with a 1.7khz - 2.2khz
crossover frequency range as you can get better sound and imaging if the
tweeter operates this low, but with a steeper crossover slope, lets say
4th - 8th order. The cheaper tweeters may not be a nice in this frequency range
so you might want to rule out some of those $10 - $20 tweeters. lol

For mids you can gamble on the PHL product if you want, I like their products.
They have higher senstiviity pure midranges and some midwoofers, 6.5" all the
way up in size.

If you chose a good tweeter, PHL mid and later wanted to make your
own passive crossover, the quality tweeter will mate easily to many of
the PHL product because the PHL sound is more tolerable than the fancy
drivers using exotic cone materials {ie, Seas, Focal, etc.}. I can listen
to a PHL mid 'full range' and not be annoyed by cone breakup mods like
you hear from the other brands. In theory, you could just install a cheap
shallow crossover, 1st or 2nd order and it will work nice. Just make sure your
quality tweeter is good enough to handle this, so choose the tweeter wisely.

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 02:03 PM
You can use it for L/R mains, up to 3 way design.
You can make a tweeter, midrange, woofer design and one DCX will cross it over.
If you want a 2 way, then you don't use the second pair of outputs.


Cant I use it in a 2 way design and use it for left/right/center? and get a 7 channel amp? or 3 pro audio amp?

Says online it has 3 inputs and 6 outputs.

Remember ill be powering the rears with my receiver. (dont care how those sounds lol)

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 03:17 PM
just say I risk it and get three of these kits sort of but without the crossover, build my own box veneer it to my taste and go with the 2 way active crossover and probably some pro audio amps. or a 7 channel amp.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_274&products_id=387

would i still need xover's?

I am also liking these allot

http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html

would it be possible to use those as l/r/c?

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 03:34 PM
Cant I use it in a 2 way design and use it for left/right/center? and get a 7 channel amp? or 3 pro audio amp?

Says online it has 3 inputs and 6 outputs.

Remember ill be powering the rears with my receiver. (dont care how those sounds lol)

I checked the online manual. Page 10.

They show {figure 4.2} that you can configure it for LH LH LH, triple biamping.

Figure 6.3 shows 3 x 2 way configuration.

I would have to verify with my DCX to make sure it does high pass and
low pass on the midranges.

If this works, you are good to go .. LCR

shine the rear surround...

:cool:

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 03:54 PM
re: Selah, RAW, GR-Research, etc.

Their forums are located here;

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?PHPSESSID=q6i6h7onvarok0c89tinuek777&action=circles

Each manufacturer has their own forum section. You can go there to
do some research on those kits and ask questions.

If you used a DCX instead of the passive crossover design made for
a particular kit, you should be able to extract high performance from
the kit.. Because you can try different crossover types, Butterworth, Bessel,
Linkwitz-Riley, plus you have 6dB/octave up to 48dB/octave slopes. My favorites
are 3rd order {18dB/octave} Butterworth, and 4th and 8th order Linkwitz.

The crossover frequencies are swept in small increments of a few hundred hertz,
there is PEQ's and delays to mess with. You can do shelving filters too if you want, they look like this.
http://www.astralsound.com/shelving.gif

In many ways you can probably extract better performance from a kit,
minus their passive crossover, but add the DCX. The DCX allows so much
tweaking that you can easily find the sweet sound.


re: http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html
LCR ?

This is a 3 way, so one DCX isn't enough to do LCR. You can probably
convert this center channel design to L and R speakers. Rearrange the drivers
so it looks like this one;
http://www.selahaudio.com/id53.html

But you will have two midwoofers on the bottom. You'd get more bass.

Partexpress has cabinets for loudspeakers.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?WebPage_ID=180&raid=44&rak=finished_cabinets

Random speakers
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/bau_it_en.htm

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 04:04 PM
Exotic stuff

Mini ribbon for MTM - to keep midrange center to center spacing low.
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=179

JMlab In Wall Mini Utopia - Expensive .. integrate into your own cabinet design.
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=29
[BTW, I didn't like my Focal 6WM drivers :( ]

Raal Ribbon - Shin {DIYA} is using these in his latest project.
http://www.raalribbon.com/products_flatfoil_70-10.htm

Project {main thread}
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93218

Latest construction pic;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93218&perpage=10&pagenumber=96

Romy the Cat's custom Raal ribbon. Very nice.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3766

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 05:01 PM
Does Linkwitz have anything that catches the eye?

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

Lots of people like the Orion, it's fully active with custom active crossovers ->
"The completed speakers cost around $2200, without power amplifiers."

Raw kit looks like so;
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/photos/Orion_Raw_Kit.jpg

Looks like an easy project.

For center channel, find a kit with the same tweeter and smaller Seas midrange.

Pluto would be neat for surrounds.

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 06:09 PM
http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html

I am still liking that one the most so far.

for surrounds I dont care ill keep running what I am running now.

any other recommendations? dang thylantar your sure are very knowledgeable when it comes to diy.

1loudsuv
06-25-2007, 06:12 PM
I am gonna talk to my box builder soon, see if he can come up with some sleek box designs for that kit. I can build the boxes but I want them to come out flawless without a single imperfection so I rather have my friend build them :)

thylantyr
06-25-2007, 08:59 PM
http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html

I am still liking that one the most so far.

for surrounds I dont care ill keep running what I am running now.

any other recommendations? dang thylantar your sure are very knowledgeable when it comes to diy.

Go to the Selah forum {audio circle} and see if you can get some user
testimonials on that speaker. Dig up some dirt before you tackle the project.

This is a complicated design. Ribbon + dome midrange + seas midwoofers.

You can simplify this. You can use a bigger ribbon, maybe the $125 or $300
Fountek, implement an active steep crossover, slope LR4 or LR8, and use
those Seas mids, but I'd still chose a pair of PHL1340 midwoofers over Seas.

The Fountek NeoPro5i is nice. Expensive, high sensitivity of 102dB. // nice //
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1557&osCsid=9b5535d5459aaa71a08d265c0f3ed7ea

pics found in cyber;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/phl/NeoPro5i-1.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/phl/NeoPro5i-2.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/phl/NeoPro5i-3.JPG


The $125 Fountek NeoCE2.0 is good too.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1556

This is branwell's system using PHL1340 midwoofers. I don't remember the
tweeter, maybe Morel? Dual Peerless XLS subs, IIRC.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/phl/6.JPG

He like the MTM with PHL over the same design using Seas midwoofers :)
Even Pass Labs likes PHL mids as they are used in the Rushmore fully active
loudspeaker, check it out. IIRC, Raven ribbon, PHL mids, and rumored to
be custom PHL midbass. It's a higher sensitivity design. IMO, better dynamics
are had.

Here's another system using the ~$100 Fountek ribbon, Audax PR170M0 {identical sound to PHL1120} and dual Lambda TD15X woofers.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/phl/1.JPG

This is a 3 way system though. It might look ordinary but those combinations can
yield very high SQ. I would have just centered the drivers or make a dual cabinet
maybe like so using those driver combinations.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/IMG_17431.jpg

You have to figure out if you like ribbon tweeter sound or dome tweeter sound.
If you like the ribbon tweeter sound, the Fountek brand is very nice for the money. Rick @ Selah uses it alot in his line arrays and the composite ribbon design is more robust than the designs using an aluminum element, ie Raven
or AC ribbons. There really is no need to look at those expensive ribbons.
On the other hand the Raal is very interesting, those are more unique.

For wider dispersion, the small ribbon is needed but they are crossover frequency
limited. That's why the Selah center channel you like needs a dome midrange,
because that small ribbon can't be crossed over lower and the Seas midwoofers
are just poor performers in the higher crossover frequency range. In other words,
Seas Excel is high end drivers, but they are not forgiving and don't offer as much
design flexibility as the PHL.

If you use the larger ribbons, you can lower the crossover frequency but a larger
ribbon has weaker vertical dispersion so you need to aim the tweeter towards
the listener to get the sweet spot. Catch 22.

The LCY ribbons look interesting as they have wide dispersion like a dome,
claims of 2.5khz crossover can be used, easily integrated with dual PHL mids.