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View Full Version : $500 to spend on speakers for active setup. suggestions?



niqnak
05-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Earlier I posted a thread about installing a new comp set into the stock locations of my car because I don't want to have custom kicks anymore in my limited space. The stock locations are mid in the kick panel firing towards the occupants feet and tweeter in the door sail. It seems like going active will be the best thing to do to help out my poor install locations. What I need for my active setup is..

I will have a 75watts x 4 for the setup.
5.25" Mid and 1" Soft Dome Tweeter
Preferably a mid with favorable off-axis response
I listen to almost entirely hip hop so I like a fairly bright tweeter for the snares and claps, but not too much to where I blink every time a snare hits. I have been happy with the tweeters from my RE RE comps.

Right now the cost effectiveness and my mild ocd always making me want to buy the same brand has me leaning towards Peerless HDS Exclusive or Nomex and Peerless 810921's after reading some reviews, but I by no means have to keep them both the same brand.

Lemme know if I have left anything out. Thanks.

DejaWiz
05-27-2007, 05:36 PM
There's a great thread you should read. ;)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236587

niqnak
05-27-2007, 05:45 PM
There's a great thread you should read. ;)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236587

I had already read that thread, thanks. It seems like my needs are different then his?

DejaWiz
05-27-2007, 05:48 PM
Gotcha. Have you checked out links specified by MiniVan in that thread?

niqnak
05-27-2007, 05:58 PM
Gotcha. Have you checked out links specified by MiniVan in that thread?
yep.

I do have another question that I am confused about. I don't understand how the powering works on an active setup. Like the amp that I intend to use will do 75x4 or bridged to 230x2. Will a similar active setup with the 75x4 be able to keep up with a passive setup that can handle being powered by the 230x2?

DejaWiz
05-27-2007, 06:01 PM
yep.

I do have another question that I am confused about. I don't understand how the powering works on an active setup. Like the amp that I intend to use will do 75x4 or bridged to 230x2. Will a similar active setup with the 75x4 be able to keep up with a passive setup that can handle being powered by the 230x2?


That's going to depend on the speakers used and how they are installed.

MiniVanMan
05-27-2007, 08:20 PM
In most cases 75 watts will not be as loud as 230 watts.

However, 75 watts in most cases is enough to get most 5 1/4" speakers to full excursion, if not over excursion.

The Exclusive is one such driver that will do well off of 75 watts @ 4 ohms, which will translate to about 50 watts @ 8 ohms (the Exclusive is an 8 ohm driver).

For a tweeter, there are a ton of options. First, if you go with the Exclusives, the LPG, the Vifa XT25 (small format), or the XT19 (Alpine variant from PacParts). I like the XT19 just because it's extremely cheap, with big budget sound. It will also match up very well with the Exclusive. The LPG 26NFA (aluminum dome) is a can't miss tweeter. Depends on how much you really want to spend. If you can mount your tweeters on-axis, the XT19 is hard to beat. For off-axis mounting, (i.e. firing across, but in front of you), the LPG is where you should look.

As for power, you can either run the 75 x 4, or you can bridge to the 230 watts, (which is awfully excessive for the Exclusives), and get a small 50x2, or 75x2 amp for the tweeters.

If you want to save even more money, the Dayton RS150, mated with a pair of Seas Neo aluminums would be a great option. For a bit over $100.00 total for drivers, you'd have big budget sound, at a bargain price.

6spdcoupe
05-27-2007, 08:30 PM
Im ashamed of you for not plugging my OWIIs :(



;)

MiniVanMan
05-27-2007, 10:24 PM
Im ashamed of you for not plugging my OWIIs :(



;)


You selling some?

I rarely suggest high priced drivers to people I don't know. Plus, I haven't heard the OWIIs. Ocuriel was running them locally for a while if I remember correctly but haven't had a chance to listen to them. Last time I saw him he was taking his mids out and putting them in my car. :)

By the way, do you sell them in your shop?

6spdcoupe
05-27-2007, 10:30 PM
You selling some?

I rarely suggest high priced drivers to people I don't know. Plus, I haven't heard the OWIIs. Ocuriel was running them locally for a while if I remember correctly but haven't had a chance to listen to them. Last time I saw him he was taking his mids out and putting them in my car. :)

By the way, do you sell them in your shop?


I am. :)

I was gonna give em a round of play, but didnt want to do all the needed modifications just to 'try em out'. I most likely would have loved em as most do, but then my manufacturers that I also rep for would have been severely upset. :laugh:

I dont, I still think ellis is prolly the best to get em from.

MiniVanMan
05-27-2007, 10:35 PM
I am. :)

I was gonna give em a round of play, but didnt want to do all the needed modifications just to 'try em out'. I most likely would have loved em as most do, but then my manufacturers that I also rep for would have been severely upset. :laugh:

I dont, I still think ellis is prolly the best to get em from.

They are the one high priced tweeter I've contemplated picking up. I'm such a cheap bastard though, that I never did. I have dash locations I can run a large format in, but when I tried it, the reflections off the windshield were horrendous. So, any thought of running any Hiquphons went out the window.

6spdcoupe
05-27-2007, 10:43 PM
Well thats no good , but its a minivan. :p:




































Its all good, I have one too. ;)

niqnak
05-28-2007, 12:27 AM
Are there any particular mids that might do a better job in my particular location? (in the kick panels firing straight at the occupants' feet)

niqnak
05-28-2007, 12:34 AM
That's going to depend on the speakers used and how they are installed.
Like i said the install would be the same in either setup. 5.25 mid in the kick panel and a tweeter in the door sail. If i go with a passive setup I am most leaning towards Dynaudio Esoteric System 222's.

MiniVanMan
05-28-2007, 01:57 AM
Are there any particular mids that might do a better job in my particular location? (in the kick panels firing straight at the occupants' feet)

Do you mean, the drivers will not be aimed upwards and towards you?

If I read you right, you're going to be extremely off-axis, and that's not good. That changes tweeter selection quite a bit, and will limit you to a tweeter capable of a low frequency response, like the Seas Neo. Other tweeters that will fit the bill are pretty expensive, like the better Rainbow tweets, i.e. the Cal28, and Cal27.

Please clarify how the 5 1/4" drivers will be aimed.

niqnak
05-28-2007, 04:16 PM
Do you mean, the drivers will not be aimed upwards and towards you?

If I read you right, you're going to be extremely off-axis, and that's not good. That changes tweeter selection quite a bit, and will limit you to a tweeter capable of a low frequency response, like the Seas Neo. Other tweeters that will fit the bill are pretty expensive, like the better Rainbow tweets, i.e. the Cal28, and Cal27.

Please clarify how the 5 1/4" drivers will be aimed.
It's only the 5 1/4" drivers that will be off axis. The tweeters will be in the corner of the a-pillar and aimed at the occupants head on the opposite side of the car.

The 5 1/4"s on the other hand will be extremely off-axis. They will be flat against the kick panel in the stock locations aiming directly at the occupants feet.

MiniVanMan
05-28-2007, 05:13 PM
If that's the case, you're going to want the Seas Neo tweeter. Unless you want to fork out the money for some Rainbow tweeters. Low end extension will be friend.

Take a look at this link for how speakers behave off-axis. It'll give you a good idea why I'm saying what I'm saying.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7107

Looking at the Peerless 5.5" it has great off-axis extension that should be useable to 3000 hz at 60-80 degrees off-axis.

What you really want to avoid is the approximate (could be more, could be less) 3db left side bias you'll very likely get because the left side driver is extremely off-axis, and the right side driver will by a lot more on-axis. Because of this difference, your stage will be pulled to the right side, and away from you. So, you'll still want to cross low because you can avoid that difference. Look at the link, and the links within (my first post in that thread) to see what I'm talking about.

If you want to check out what Rainbow has to offer for tweeters, talk to 6spcoupe. He's an authorized dealer. The Seas Lotus RT27F is another option at $250.00 a piece, and the Scan Speak D2904-6000, with is a bit under $200.00 a piece. I don't know prices of the Rainbows. That's why the Seas Neo is almost always my first choice.

niqnak
05-28-2007, 06:03 PM
If that's the case, you're going to want the Seas Neo tweeter. Unless you want to fork out the money for some Rainbow tweeters. Low end extension will be friend.

Take a look at this link for how speakers behave off-axis. It'll give you a good idea why I'm saying what I'm saying.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7107

Looking at the Peerless 5.5" it has great off-axis extension that should be useable to 3000 hz at 60-80 degrees off-axis.

What you really want to avoid is the approximate (could be more, could be less) 3db left side bias you'll very likely get because the left side driver is extremely off-axis, and the right side driver will by a lot more on-axis. Because of this difference, your stage will be pulled to the right side, and away from you. So, you'll still want to cross low because you can avoid that difference. Look at the link, and the links within (my first post in that thread) to see what I'm talking about.

If you want to check out what Rainbow has to offer for tweeters, talk to 6spcoupe. He's an authorized dealer. The Seas Lotus RT27F is another option at $250.00 a piece, and the Scan Speak D2904-6000, with is a bit under $200.00 a piece. I don't know prices of the Rainbows. That's why the Seas Neo is almost always my first choice.
thanks a lot for the help.

genxx
05-28-2007, 06:45 PM
MiniVanMan-Has a wealth of knowledge.

I agree the Seas Neo's are IMO as good as many of the more expenxive tweeters with great off axis response. I have run the CAL26 which is excellent IMO. There is also the CAL27 but from people I know that have used both they feel the CAL26 has a smoother response. The CAL27 is one hell of a tweeter I think 6spd has a set for sale something like 275.00 or 300.00 for the pair. Retail is like 400.00 or more I think on a set.

The Peerless does have great off-axis response. I had great luck with the Seas stuff as well. I am getting ready to test out some CDT stuff I picked up to see what I can get out of it.

MiniVanMan-What about the Dayton 5" I cannot remeber about the off-axis response on those. BUt the RS-180's are great IMO.

If you do not go the DIY route I would reccomed Rainbows. I would like to reccommend CDT but have had no time to play with them yet.

niqnak
05-28-2007, 07:50 PM
If you do not go the DIY route I would reccomed Rainbows. I would like to reccommend CDT but have had no time to play with them yet.
I am still highly considering a passive set because I am not sure I am ready to tackle going active. I am willing to spend a bit more if I do end up going passive. The sets I have been considering for passive are the Dynaudio System 222's and the Rainbow Profi or Vanadiums. It's already been said the cal26 is great for off-axis response, but what about the MD102? And which one of these two systems would give better off-axis response in the mids?

Also, I never really see anyone talking about DLS on here. Or maybe I'm just missing the discussion...

MiniVanMan
05-28-2007, 09:53 PM
No authorized dealers DLS dealers on CA.com if I'm not mistaken. 6spcoupe has a lot to do with the prolific usage of Rainbow. Not that it's a bad thing. Rainbow is a fantastic product.

I wouldn't worry about off-axis response on your tweeters. You said that the tweeters will be aimed at your head to begin with. So, you should be fine with a lot of tweeters.

When dealing with a passive component set, "good" off-axis response means that there's a good tweeter, and a low crossover point on the passive crossover. That's not always the case, as with CDT a lot of times, but it's a good rule of thumb. You don't get 4000 hz flat at 60 degrees off-axis, and 60-70 hz of thumping midbass. Just doesn't happen.

Again, though check the link at the bottom of my signature. It explains crossovers, and why passives are a crap shoot.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, but rather give you the most information possible so you can make an educated decision.

6spdcoupe
05-28-2007, 10:09 PM
I am still highly considering a passive set because I am not sure I am ready to tackle going active. I am willing to spend a bit more if I do end up going passive. The sets I have been considering for passive are the Dynaudio System 222's and the Rainbow Profi or Vanadiums. It's already been said the cal26 is great for off-axis response, but what about the MD102? And which one of these two systems would give better off-axis response in the mids?

Also, I never really see anyone talking about DLS on here. Or maybe I'm just missing the discussion...

Unfortunately both of those choices, while great ones, exceed your budget a bit.

6spdcoupe
05-28-2007, 10:10 PM
No authorized dealers DLS dealers on CA.com if I'm not mistaken. 6spcoupe has a lot to do with the prolific usage of Rainbow. Not that it's a bad thing. Rainbow is a fantastic product.


Now thats not true at all, there is an authorized DLS dealer on here more than willing to ship out. :D

95bat
05-28-2007, 10:15 PM
Don what all do you sell? I keep reading more and more brands lol.

6spdcoupe
05-28-2007, 10:18 PM
Hmmm ...

Arc
Dynaudio
DLS
Morel
Rainbow
Eclipse
AudioControl
TRU
Genesis
Macrom
Nakamichi
RE
US Amps
Audison
Hertz
Alumapro

Im sure theres some missing ...

But of course the majority of these cant be shipped.

MiniVanMan
05-28-2007, 11:16 PM
Now thats not true at all, there is an authorized DLS dealer on here more than willing to ship out. :D

Okay, I stand corrected. I'm still calling you the ultimate Rainbow fanboi though. :D

6spdcoupe
05-28-2007, 11:19 PM
Call me what you like, just make it during business hours. :)

niqnak
05-28-2007, 11:46 PM
Unfortunately both of those choices, while great ones, exceed your budget a bit.
Like I said, I am willing to spend more on a passive setup and the Profi's and Dynaudio's are in the range I would like to be if I went passive.

After looking at what other ppl have done in my car it doesn't seem to be too difficult to get a 6.5" comp into the stock location. The Profi Kicks are looking optimal right now. With the System 242GT's also in the running...

95bat
05-29-2007, 12:21 AM
As to not thread jack, Don will be receiving a PM shortly :)

MiniVanMan - I find all of your posts incredibly helpful. All the information you give about going active is awesome.

MiniVanMan
05-29-2007, 02:48 AM
As to not thread jack, Don will be receiving a PM shortly :)

MiniVanMan - I find all of your posts incredibly helpful. All the information you give about going active is awesome.

Thank you. Glad I can be of help.

Gary S
05-29-2007, 02:16 PM
I'd like to know how a novice would go about getting a flat anechoic frequency response, which is critical, without a peak or especially a dip around the crossover region. And how do you know it's flat?

MiniVanMan
05-29-2007, 02:52 PM
I'd like to know how a novice would go about getting a flat anechoic frequency response, which is critical, without a peak or especially a dip around the crossover region. And how do you know it's flat?

The same can be said for both passive and active crossovers. RTAs and/or some means of measurement are really the only ways to know.

At least with active you can change on the fly when you do know you have a peak or dip around the crossover point. Passives aren't as forgiving.

Being car audio, we're stuck in a guessing game. You make the best judgment call you can, and you go from there.

In the defense of passive crossovers, they are simpler to use by far. But they are harder to tune. A novice doesn't need to know anything other than how to hook up some wiring. It doesn't mean that they'll automatically have a flat response at the crossover point. No matter how much R&D goes into a passive crossover, no company can boast that their passive will yield a flat response at the crossover point in both a kick panel mounted mid, and a door mounted mid severely off-axis. Well, they can boast it, but they're lying.

By the time somebody is familiar with the term "active" they're not too far from understanding how it works, if it's spelled out to them simply. That's my goal, keep it as simple as possible.

You really need to know what you're buying when you get a passive component set.

For example, two high end component sets, the CDT ES set, and the comparably priced DLS Iridium.

The CDT, great top end extension on the mid, a little less midbass output, but better off-axis response on the mid. Allows for a bit higher of a crossover point, and therefore can handle a bit more power due to the tweeter not being ran to it's limits. The downfall though, is in a door, the high crossover point doesn't lend itself well to a flat response in the crossover region. The ES crossover is around 3800 hz. I wouldn't hesitate to use this set in a kickpanel setup. Even a kickpanel setup a bit off-axis would be okay. One huge benefit of this setup is that vocals will be mostly isolated to just one driver. In a 2-way setup, this is very nice as vocals are very hard to get right with a passive crossover when the crossover point is right in upper range of most vocal responses.

The DLS on the other hand is built for doors. Low crossover point lends itself to better "overall" off-axis response because the tweeter is taking over midrange duty earlier. With this setup tuning will be bit more difficult out of the box than the CDT in kicks. You'll get a clearer upper midrange than the CDTs in a door configuration, but once again your crossover point will be in the vocal range. While you could use these in kicks, they're more designed for doors.

So, while both sets will work in both configurations, one will be more suited to the one or the other. It all depends on what you're willing to do.

Hintzyboy
05-29-2007, 03:20 PM
Okay, I stand corrected. I'm still calling you the ultimate Rainbow fanboi though. :D

Funny, he doesn't list a single piece of Rainbow equipment in his sig. ;)

Oh, and I'm extremely hurt that you didn't thank me for the ST2004 in your DIYMA sig:crap:

LOL. Speaking of off-axis response, how far up do you thing the G18s you sold me will play at 30 or 60 degrees off? I don't have the time or experience to build custom kicks, and don't want to pay for them if I don't have to. The stock locations in my truck are about a foot from the floor, about mid-shin.

MiniVanMan
05-29-2007, 03:34 PM
I had them crossed over at about 2.2-2.4k. It was hard to tell with the crossover I was using. The tweeter then came in at about 2.8k. These were with 18 db crossover points. If you have 24 db, drop the tweeter a bit lower, and you might get better phasing with the different slopes. Try either a 12 db, or 18 db with the G18s. Hell, even 6 db sounded REALLY good with those drivers, but I couldn't use that due to the bandpass capability of the crossover. It would use 6 db highpass, and they didn't like that at 80 hz.

So, use 24 db for your tweeter, and play with different slopes, if you have the capability on the low pass for the mids.

Oh, and I'm just picking on Don. We go WAAAAAY back. Like a week or something.

And the sig on DIYMA is fixed.

Hintzyboy
05-29-2007, 04:02 PM
I had them crossed over at about 2.2-2.4k. It was hard to tell with the crossover I was using. The tweeter then came in at about 2.8k. These were with 18 db crossover points. If you have 24 db, drop the tweeter a bit lower, and you might get better phasing with the different slopes. Try either a 12 db, or 18 db with the G18s. Hell, even 6 db sounded REALLY good with those drivers, but I couldn't use that due to the bandpass capability of the crossover. It would use 6 db highpass, and they didn't like that at 80 hz.

So, use 24 db for your tweeter, and play with different slopes, if you have the capability on the low pass for the mids.

Oh, and I'm just picking on Don. We go WAAAAAY back. Like a week or something.

And the sig on DIYMA is fixed.

Yeah, my x-over is set at 18dB slopes. can't adjust that. I'll probably just get some kicks. Any thoughts on something like Q-forms? My local shops would charge me up the *** for labor and I really don't want to have to do this myself right now, way too busy.

Gary S
05-29-2007, 04:13 PM
The following post refers to midrange/midbass to other mids and tweeter crossovers, not necessarily midbass to subwoofer crossovers or subwoofers.

You have a lot of knowledge about audio, and I enjoy reading your posts and will continue to do so... they remind of things I have forgotten, and I learn new things. But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I see people posting about going active, active, active here day in and day out, and I have dreaded the day I would make this post... I really don't feel like arguing here, don't have the time or the energy, and I hate arguing anyway... I'm a nice guy. I usually just post my two cents in order to steer people in the right direction and leave it at that.

The better component set passives that are professionally designed, are often built by pros that have years of experience doing it and are designed to play flat. This is a fact.

On the other hand, some sets are just thrown together by companies who are just glorified marketing companies, using off-the-shelf or basic text book crossovers which can be far from flat.

In the hands of a trained professional speaker/crossover designer, I will admit that an active system, everything else being equal, would be better. But I worked for many years in the audio business, even had a stint with JL Audio (I'm not saying this to impress you, but to impress upon you the fact that I do have some knowledge)... I might be able to get the relative level of the tweeter and mid matched, but I would still end up with a peak or drop out around the crossover region. I'll admit that I don't have the experience the pros do, and therefore can't beat them. In short, I would get better results with a professionally designed mass produced component set and the included passive. So would 99% of consumers. I would suggest that people who are serious about sound consider what I have said here and verify it with a qualified audio company technician before going active.

If I were serious about going active, I'll tell you what I would do... I would send the drivers and the active crossover I intended to use to a pro and have them set up the crossover slopes and frequencies. Madisound used to have a service like that, maybe they still do.

This is going to be some new information for many of you folks... some of you may not sleep tonight.

The popular school of thought is that the interior of the car dictates the sound, and that speakers need to be equalized for that interior (it used to be that way for the analyzer measurement [RTA] portion of shows). But I belong to the other school. While I believe speaker placement and aiming, and speaker installs designed to minimize off-axis problems and near field reflections are very important, I also believe that flat anechoic response rules.

I'm going to leave everyone with a thought. If Eric Clapton got into the back seat of your car and started playing his guitar, do you think it would make sense to tell him to re-tune his guitar for your interior? Do you smell what I'm cooking?!

Our brains separate the sound of the speakers from the sound of late reflections.

MiniVanMan
05-29-2007, 05:17 PM
The following post refers to midrange/midbass to other mids and tweeter crossovers, not necessarily midbass to subwoofer crossovers or subwoofers.

You have a lot of knowledge about audio, and I enjoy reading your posts and will continue to do so... they remind of things I have forgotten, and I learn new things. But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I see people posting about going active, active, active here day in and day out, and I have dreaded the day I would make this post... I really don't feel like arguing here, don't have the time or the energy, and I hate arguing anyway... I'm a nice guy. I usually just post my two cents in order to steer people in the right direction and leave it at that.

The better component set passives that are professionally designed, are often built by pros that have years of experience doing it and are designed to play flat. This is a fact.

On the other hand, some sets are just thrown together by companies who are just glorified marketing companies, using off-the-shelf or basic text book crossovers which can be far from flat.

In the hands of a trained professional speaker/crossover designer, I will admit that an active system, everything else being equal, would be better. But I worked for many years in the audio business, even had a stint with JL Audio (I'm not saying this to impress you, but to impress upon you the fact that I do have some knowledge)... I might be able to get the relative level of the tweeter and mid matched, but I would still end up with a peak or drop out around the crossover region. I'll admit that I don't have the experience the pros do, and therefore can't beat them. In short, I would get better results with a professionally designed mass produced component set and the included passive. So would 99% of consumers. I would suggest that people who are serious about sound consider what I have said here and verify it with a qualified audio company technician before going active.

If I were serious about going active, I'll tell you what I would do... I would send the drivers and the active crossover I intended to use to a pro and have them set up the crossover slopes and frequencies. Madisound used to have a service like that, maybe they still do.

This is going to be some new information for many of you folks... some of you may not sleep tonight.

The popular school of thought is that the interior of the car dictates the sound, and that speakers need to be equalized for that interior (it used to be that way for the analyzer measurement [RTA] portion of shows). But I belong to the other school. While I believe speaker placement and aiming, and speaker installs designed to minimize off-axis problems and near field reflections are very important, I also believe that flat anechoic response rules.

I'm going to leave everyone with a thought. If Eric Clapton got into the back seat of your car and started playing his guitar, do you think it would make sense to tell him to re-tune his guitar for your interior? Do you smell what I'm cooking?!

Our brains separate the sound of the speakers from the sound of late reflections.

There's no disagreement here. I totally agree with you. The problem, though, and you stated it in the beginning of your post is "the better component sets".

The first goal is a flat response. But even when designing a home audio crossover, there are several ways to do it, hence, the different alignments, Butterworth, Linkwitz, Bessel, etc. Linkwitz-Riley is by far the most common due to it's flat response across the crossover region. That doesn't mean that it will be flat in a car, no matter how the crossover is designed. It can be close, but once again placement of the drivers can and will have a huge effect on how the crossover will perform.

I'm not an advocate of buying $1000.00 in speakers, and then running them active. I'm from the opposite school. I think, (and like so many other things, in my opinion) active can achieve results comparable to the high priced component sets with much cheaper drivers. You are right though, 99% of the car audio community, and I'll even go as far as to say 99.9% don't understand the nuances of speakers, and audio in general to be able to achieve great sound with an active setup. At this point it might be better for them to buy a good prepackaged set.

I'm all about cost to performance ratio. I will educate myself to no end to be able to achieve the best ratio possible, and this is not just with car audio. It's my mentality in everything I do.

I spout off a lot on this board, more to keep people educated, and to step on any myths, or flat out falsehoods before somebody makes a mistake. I'm not the end all be all of car audio. Far from it. I'm a hobbyist just like most of us on this board. I do have one talent though. That is when a true professional comes in, I can translate from smart speak to dumb speak so I can understand what the hell he's talking about. Then I can pass that information on in a manner that the average enthusiast can understand.

So, no, fellow Gary (I'm Gary as well), I don't disagree with you one bit. I just find active tuning the cheaper approach to achieving that flat response at the crossover point. At no point will I say Dynaudio, Focal, Rainbow, and so many others, don't know what they're doing. But a little knowledge on what they are doing, and what they're trying to achieve can go a long way in the education of the average car audio enthusiast.