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View Full Version : Why Dont People Use Rear Fill?



godzukiduce
04-21-2007, 09:53 PM
yea so i plan on getting some components for up front and i am debating if i should get some coaxils for the rear.
Do you really need rear fill?
Are They just a waste of money?
what are some advantages and disadvantges?

J31Rob
04-21-2007, 09:57 PM
1. If you're in a trunk, they'll distort very bad.
2. Do you ever sit in tha back? No, what do you care what it sounds like back there.
3. They're in your face, backing my #2 opinion.
4. It's just better, IMO.

Also:
5. If you're loud enough, your **** is gonna distort REGARDLESS of where your speakers are placed, just a heads up.

MBrock4u
04-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Once again its rear fill time, lol. First of all, there is nothing wrong with rear fill. Alot of people on here don't care for it. I use it for a couple of reasons. 1 It can enhance your front stage IF you adjust it properly. 2. In my situation, I have passengers, and they really apreciate the fact that I have it, instead of just a sub stage. It is not the boogie man some people claim that it is. Just keep in mind, have a strong solid front stage and don't spend much money of rears. Rear fill is not necessary, but if uses properly is a nice thing to have. You be the judge and listen for yourself.

chucku
04-21-2007, 10:12 PM
I would have to agree with the above statement. Dont let your rear fill take away from your budget for front stage. I have rear fill but, there the same speakers as the front stage, I just fade the rears so they dont distract me. Loud *** cheap rear fill will probabily not help your system much.

TheBaron929
04-21-2007, 10:13 PM
i have tried both at seperate times. and i enjoy having a rearfill much more than not having one. i think it fills out the sound more, gives more depth to the music.

but its all opinion i guess

oxsign
04-21-2007, 10:35 PM
1. If you're in a trunk, they'll distort very bad.
2. Do you ever sit in tha back? No, what do you care what it sounds like back there.
3. They're in your face, backing my #2 opinion.
4. It's just better, IMO.

Also:
5. If you're loud enough, your **** is gonna distort REGARDLESS of where your speakers are placed, just a heads up.None of this really answered any of his questions. These are just your opinions as to why not to have rear fill. That's not a bad things, just not the facts.

Going with what "MBrock4u" had to say, I'd have to agree with his statement. I also have rear fills in my blazer, and I also think that if set properly, it can enhance your front stage. :fro:

audiobahnuser18
04-21-2007, 10:41 PM
I also agree rear fill does give actual music and not just bass notes more depth to the sound if you set it right:).

skmfkr
04-21-2007, 11:10 PM
strong front stage > medium front and rear

altho i do drive a reg cab truck and the rear 5.25s are absolutely pointless since my box pretty much covers them up

but yeah like its been said many times music is supposed to sound it like its coming from infront of you not behind

Ku-sama
04-21-2007, 11:13 PM
I hear my 4x10's perfectly fine?

azbass
04-21-2007, 11:15 PM
its all prefference. you want speakers in the rear. go for it.

azbass
04-21-2007, 11:16 PM
1. If you're in a trunk, they'll distort very bad.
2. Do you ever sit in tha back? No, what do you care what it sounds like back there.
3. They're in your face, backing my #2 opinion.
4. It's just better, IMO.

Also:
5. If you're loud enough, your **** is gonna distort REGARDLESS of where your speakers are placed, just a heads up.

1: you are a dumb ***
2: see number 1

Ku-sama
04-21-2007, 11:17 PM
I have my rear set on higns... my 6.5's handle the mids and I listen to alot of metallica so I like my highs to be nice and clean

godzukiduce
04-21-2007, 11:27 PM
thanks for the input guys ill most likely get some rear speakers.

BlackMaxima
04-22-2007, 12:55 AM
this is my opinion.


work on the front stage. get some high quality speakers up front.
if you want a rearfill just get some maybe $50 speakers and power it up with the H/U no amp for the rear speakers.

helotaxi
04-22-2007, 11:09 AM
To properly implement rear fill an not have it detract from the overall quality of the system, there are several areas that have t obe considered and addressed.

1) You have to account for the phase relation in the higher freqs. Failure to do so will create a bunch of peaks and valleys in the freq response. Time alignment can account for some of this. Another way to take care of this on the higher freqs where is has the largest effects is to limit the pass band of the rear speakers to midrange only.

2) You have to decide if you want fill or just rear speakers. If you want fill, you will need an amp to be able to control the volume (you want them really quiet) and the passband (200-6khZ). If you want rear speakers to "surround you in sound" be prepared to accept the consequences in the realms of imaging, staging and frequency response.

3) Music is recorded and mixed in stereo 99% of the time. Simply adding a second pair of speakers does not make it surround sound. Adding rear speakers, even when delayed and attenuated, doesn't create "ambiance" or help the feel of the music. All the "room cues" (echos, etc...) are contained on the original recording and can be fully reproduced by the front speakers. In fact that is how they were intended to be reproduced: 2 speakers in front of the listener. Unless you can separate the ambiance sounds from the recording (you can't), adding rear speakers with a delay will not accurately recreate the room but merely make it sound like you're listening to the recording in a larger room than your car. If that's what you want, go for it, but it isn't accurate reproduction.

IMO, unless you have implemented a full 5.1 system in the car and have a source unit capable of decoding 5.1 material and delivering it to the right place, rear speakers and center channels have no place in a system. That's just my opinion, your system, do what you want.

Symon_say
04-22-2007, 12:19 PM
helotaxi you made a real great statement, that value info, but i change from front speaker only system, to front and rear (i'm working on a carpc son i'll have 4.1 surround), i can say the music sound deeper and i love it, comps only sound really great, but the rear fill, propertly set is really nice, just don get crazy buying high end comps for real fill, get a nice set of coax for that.

headless
04-22-2007, 04:06 PM
why?

1. Because, I don't like how the system sounds with rear fill, though with excessive time alignment it can be made... o kish. Music isn't recorded in 4 channels...usually ;) 5.1 setups with the extremely rare and small selection of re-mastered 5.1 music could be counted as an exception.

2. i'd need another amp, or i'd have to cut down on how much power i'm running on the fronts which would detract from the excellent sound already present that already fills the entire vehicle to the point of pain if you so desire

3. I'd need another set of speakers. That would also detract from funds available for a ****** front stage which is all that is necessary..

Usually, people who are running rear fill are doing it for all the wrong reasons that would be easier fixed by simply fixing the problem at the source - for example...running your highs on the rear fill?! WTF. Great, now all the voices come from behind you while the guitarist is wailing away in front of you...with massive time delay between the two sources to boot. How that is going to give you 'clear highs' is beyond me. If the current set of speakers can't produce the midrange and highs clearly, they likely ****. Instead of spending $ on an amp and speakers for the rear, just get a decent set of fronts. Problem solved, and without totally destroying your soundstage and sound fidelity

Tempe
04-22-2007, 04:13 PM
Why Dont People Use Rear Fill?

Because I don't have ears on the back of my head :confused:

helotaxi
04-22-2007, 04:15 PM
Because I don't have ears on the back of my head :confused:

You don't have them on the front either, do you? Not terribly valid logic there.

J31Rob
04-22-2007, 04:24 PM
None of this really answered any of his questions. These are just your opinions as to why not to have rear fill. That's not a bad things, just not the facts.

My answered were aimed more towards "advantages & disadvantages"..


1: you are a dumb ***
2: see number 1

Hmm.. :)

Tempe
04-22-2007, 04:43 PM
You don't have them on the front either, do you? Not terribly valid logic there.

Just trying to be humerous... My ears might be located on the sides of my head, although each pinna is angled forward :cool:

99galant
04-22-2007, 04:48 PM
honestly this is a overtalked about and debate question which only starts crap. Honestly, if you want it do it, just do it right. if you don't want it don't use it and leave it at that. There are technical reasons why its not good but there are also technical ways of getting very good results from it. I was impressed with a Focal canadian demo car using rear fill. So just go ahead and do it if you want.

AMA
04-22-2007, 04:55 PM
Some great answers here. I got a lot of different answers when I asked a similar question about rear fill. I have noticed a few things when researching weather to go 2 or 4 ch. amp and rear fill or not:

Most everyone who says no to rear fill is running at least one subwoofer.

So, are you going to add subs? If not you'll probably want rear fill. You will need them to supply enough bass, more than likely. I will be installing my focal comps this week on a 4ch. amp and some infinity ref. 6x9's for rear fill. If I decide I don't like it I'll replace the rears with a sub. I also like the way rears fill the car w/ sound. Of course I can't compare it to having good front's w/ a sub. Yet.

bikinpunk
04-22-2007, 05:00 PM
I dont' use rear fill for 2 main reasons:

1. My car's relatively small. Adding rear fill won't do much for me. I continually work on my front stage and just don't have the patience to t/a & eq a set of rear speakers aimed at the back windshield...I don't wanna tackle that reflection issue.

2. I can leave them out of the rear deck and allow some of the pressure in the trunk to escape.

neonrt
04-22-2007, 08:35 PM
I plan on rear fill off the hu, so it can be turned off it wanted, or if i have passengers, turn it on.

MBrock4u
04-22-2007, 09:53 PM
It can also depend on the aplication, My main car which I use rear fill, is a 4 door Hundi Elantra which covers alot of area, My truck project is a Ford Ranger extended cab which I will not be using rear fill. Though I could, overall it will probably be better without it.

Intercooler
04-23-2007, 12:11 AM
See sig!

helotaxi
04-23-2007, 09:50 AM
See sig!

That's dumb and quite far from the truth, at least in my case.

UndercoverPunk
04-23-2007, 09:52 AM
See sig!
I don't use rear fill for one reason, and one reason only.

1. It sounds like **** to me.

Me only having a front and substage certainly has nothing to do with lack of funds. :rolleyes:


It can also depend on the aplication, My main car which I use rear fill, is a 4 door Hundi Elantra which covers alot of area, My truck project is a Ford Ranger extended cab which I will not be using rear fill. Though I could, overall it will probably be better without it.
IMO size of the cabin doesn't matter at all, I eliminated rear fill in my 93 Caprice sedan, and continue not using rear fill in my 95 Caprice Wagon, as far as a car, the cabin won't really get any larger than that unless you're driving a limo.

Omarvelous
04-23-2007, 01:20 PM
Well....

I'm sure it might have been said....

Efficiency and Cost Savings.

Lot of work to get it to work. Worth it? Ehh.... not when the same effect can be achieved utilizing only the front.

You'll save by not having to get the speakers, maybe on fabrication to align them, save on wiring, save on amps and power consumption, so on and forth.

DejaWiz
04-23-2007, 01:55 PM
Wasn't it said by someone on here a while ago that only gheys enjoy "rear fill"? :laugh:


On a more serious note, all the reasons to not have it have already been stated, so I'll just make a brief summary:

1. Source is almost always stereo... it doesn't serve a purpose of necessity.
2. Screws up imaging... I've never been to a concert and stood with my back to the stage.
3. Detracts from the money you can spend on the front stage... allows for better front speakers and amp.
4. You can use the rear speaker openings (if in the rear deck) to vent sub pressure into the cabin.
5. If you don't have a sub stage, then an entry level sub and amp will often cost you in the same ballpark as a good set of rear speakers and amp.

Duke
04-23-2007, 02:05 PM
My front stage is amped, rear (cheap coax 5.25") is not. Also, there is this fantastic option on my head unit called FADE if the rear is too loud. Plus, the location of my rears is a bit above floor level, slightly behind my head straight down.

BRZguy
04-23-2007, 02:19 PM
im getting rear fill soon, but ill only have them on when i have passengers in the back.

samson
04-23-2007, 02:26 PM
Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Never let somebody tell you what sounds good. If you like it, it's all that counts. I use rear fill but I regularly have passengers and the speakers are low and on the rear doors. I honestly don't notice them much (though I do have the fade set slightly to the front). I also think the rear fill can be an easy way to help boost your mid-bass too, which is something a lot of people seem to lack.

Just my $.02.

frzninvt
04-23-2007, 02:42 PM
Well since SQ and IASCA have gone the way of the dinosaur, I say go for it. It's all about SPL these days anyway right? I used rear fill as an IASCA competitor ('95-'97 1-150 Novice/Amateur Class) and it never hampered my scoring at all. I had it setup where it could be turned off if needed but never chose to.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, I like the immersion in the musical performance that the rear fill provides and I don't care if it was mixed in 2-channel stereo. I listen in 7.2 Matrix at home and that is my personal preference.

As already stated, if it sounds good to you then do it.

helotaxi
04-23-2007, 07:38 PM
You can't tell anyone what sounds good to them because that is subjective and opinionated. You can tell them, though, when something sounds wrong. And I mean wrong in an objective sense. If you can place any sound as coming from behind you in a stereo recording, that is wrong. If the frequency reproduction of the system is not even close to that of the recording, that is wrong. I won't tell someone what sounds good, but I will tell them that if they are after true musical accuracy, they will reproduce the recording in the same number of channels as it was recorded/mixed (with the possible addition of a summed sub channel crossed as low as possible). An audiophile's setup is simply 2 speakers in front. Same with most studios. This isn't dependant on room size, all rooms in my house are larger than the inside of a van (with the possible exception of one of the bathrooms), but 2 speaker fills them just fine. I've sat in the back row of a concert with no rear speakers and hod no trouble hearing. That was even outside. No one in the rear of my car has ever been unable to hear the stereo, either, because my subs don't overpower the rest of the system.

I could add rear speakers if I wanted but my best hope for the system after the addition would be to get it back to where it was with only fronts. I know that there is no gain in performance to be had. That said, what's the point?

UndercoverPunk
04-23-2007, 07:46 PM
That said, what's the point?

A warm feeling similar to a first time **** actress in the the San Fernando Valley that's just so thrill at having all her holes filled?

W8 a minute
04-23-2007, 08:35 PM
2. Screws up imaging... I've never been to a concert and stood with my back to the stage.

What concerts are you people going to that have any sort of "imaging"????

Most, If not all major rock concerts, as well as local rock bands plug into stacks of MONO amplifiers and sound reinforcement speakers. There is no left and right. Each instrument and singer is mic'd and fed through the sound board, then sent mono out to the house system. If you sit close enough to the stage you might be able to tell where the sound stage is, (and thats only at a local bar or very small venue) other than that you're screwed. Oh, at indoor concerts there's usually a wall behind you that reflects almost every sound that originates from the stage and if you closed your eyes and spun around several times you couldn't tell where the sound was coming from.

Most studio recordings aren't any better. Everything is recorded separately and then mixed through the board, eq'd, mixed again, effects added, mixed and eq'd again. Then the engineer does his best to create a fake sound stage that was never there to begin with.

Sure, there are some studio and live recordings that are recorded with only 2 mic's but you can count those on two hands. And the music isn't all that appealing to 90% of the people in the world.

I used to get a big kick out of people back in the IASCA day's. I used to sit people down in my car and let them listen. Then I would point to imaginary places on the dashboard and say "you can hear the violin here and the cello over there" and they would all nod and agree like sheep. The funny part is that I would point in different places for different people with the same song...and they all believed me.
I truly believe this whole "sound stage" is an imaginary animal created by people just to say there's is better than someone else's. After all, you can't measure it with a meter or any scientific formula. It's a personal judgement, just like figure skating - and just as ghey. You'll hear what you want or are told to hear

DejaWiz
04-23-2007, 09:06 PM
What concerts are you people going to that have any sort of "imaging"????


Lots of them.... Most of the outdoor concerts I attend have a noticable imaging difference than indoor concerts. I think it depends on the venue, also.

And you're right on another point... most people don't know what good imaging is and will nod at anything you point at. But there are a few of us that want to get as close as we can in attaining the stereo imaging much of the recorded music we listen to should provide. It's my opinion that rear fill will not and can not enhance this.

samson
04-23-2007, 09:10 PM
I truly believe this whole "sound stage" is an imaginary animal created by people just to say there's is better than someone else's.

LOL! I've wondered the same thing since the first guy tried to tell me 17 years ago that his system was better than mine because of imaging. BTW, I smiled and nodded my head but the whole time I was thinking "This guy is an idiot". The same guy tried to push a 4 sub isobaric design on me that was a total fricken waste of money, imo. Sometimes I think car audio isn't about who system sounds bet, it's about who's BS sounds best. :rolleyes:

headless
04-24-2007, 12:53 AM
I listen to tons of electronic music that has very defined stereo and delay effects, making sounds seem to fly past you, circle in an oval in front of you getting closer/farther while panning left/right, and generally simply sending totally different signals to left & right sides. Just because you can't perceive stereo separation and think it's a myth that having a correctly configured sound setup will cause a clearer stage that makes it easy to localise correctly placed sounds in a good recording doesn't mean that it's true...many people can't tell the difference between a sony xplod and a jl 12w6 -- and i tell them the same thing i'd tell someone who can't tell the difference between a well configured sound stage and a ****** one -- good for you - save yourself alot of money and don't worry about it. Leave worrying about it to people who can tell the difference. Run whatever you like. I really think that a lot of people have so damaged their hearing with 'serious' subwoofer setups to the point that they can't tell the difference anyway, even if they once could.

UndercoverPunk
04-24-2007, 08:07 AM
IMO, until you hear a REALLY good audio setup you really have NO IDEA what you're missing. Even then, you have to want to improve what you have.

That narrows those that actually desire hifi down to a VERY SMALL percentile.

Again IMO.

samson
04-24-2007, 09:16 AM
Just because you can't perceive stereo separation and think it's a myth that having a correctly configured sound setup will cause a clearer stage that makes it easy to localise correctly placed sounds in a good recording doesn't mean that it's true...many people can't tell the difference between a sony xplod and a jl 12w6 -- and i tell them the same thing i'd tell someone who can't tell the difference between a well configured sound stage and a ****** one -- good for you - save yourself alot of money and don't worry about it. Leave worrying about it to people who can tell the difference. Run whatever you like. I really think that a lot of people have so damaged their hearing with 'serious' subwoofer setups to the point that they can't tell the difference anyway, even if they once could.

Damaged hearing? Can't tell the difference? Are you serious? That's coming off somewhat pompous, don't you think? And I'm not exactly sure what the sub comments have to do with rear fill, either? I can perceive left from right AND front to back, thank you very much. I don't think anybody is pushing an overbearing rear set-up. Personally, I'd be leary to add anything in a sedan under the rear glass. But if you sat in my truck, I don't think you could even tell with any certainty if my rear speakers we're even turned on.

You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. :laugh: :banghead:

DejaWiz
04-24-2007, 09:17 AM
IMO, until you hear a REALLY good audio setup you really have NO IDEA what you're missing. Even then, you have to want to improve what you have.

That narrows those that actually desire hifi down to a VERY SMALL percentile.

Again IMO.

Agreed. 100%

DejaWiz
04-24-2007, 09:19 AM
You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. :laugh: :banghead:

Eh, it's simply bragging rights and sales incentive.

"Well our car has 12 speakers total, while this other one you were looking at only has 6 and it costs $2500 more!"

samson
04-24-2007, 09:20 AM
Eh, it's simply bragging rights and sales incentive.

"Well our car has 12 speakers total, while this other one you were looking at only has 6 and it costs $2500 more!"

lol, maybe so. ;)

helotaxi
04-24-2007, 10:13 AM
You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. :laugh: :banghead:

It's the same reason all the noobs think that they MUST have rear speakers and that 3-way coaxes are still sold and the Bose factory systems are considered a high end upgrade. The mainstream simply doesn't know any better. They think that a HT setup is good for listening to music.

If you don't think that staging is present in well recorded music (notice I said well recorded, which rules out a lot of the current crap being sold) put on a decent, they don't even have to be good, set of headphones and listen to a good recording. If you can't place the individual instruments in the soundstage, you don't know what you are listening for and you are really out of your element talking about staging and trying to claim that it is all a myth.

Rear speakers will not help that staging. They also will not help with tonal balance. They don't convey the recorded ambiance of the music either because they are not playing only the ambiance effects of the recording.

I won't say "don't run rear fill." It's your system, do what you want. But I will say that if you are looking to get the best performance from your system with music, they are not needed and adding them will require extra work to just get the freq response and staging back to where it was before they were added and no benefit is to be gained.

luvinthebass
04-24-2007, 10:23 AM
Damaged hearing? Can't tell the difference? Are you serious? That's coming off somewhat pompous, don't you think? And I'm not exactly sure what the sub comments have to do with rear fill, either? I can perceive left from right AND front to back, thank you very much. I don't think anybody is pushing an overbearing rear set-up. Personally, I'd be leary to add anything in a sedan under the rear glass. But if you sat in my truck, I don't think you could even tell with any certainty if my rear speakers we're even turned on.

You know, I find it amazing that the auto industry hasn't caught on to this sound stage thing. Think of all the money they could save by not putting speakers in the back of their cars. :laugh: :banghead:

when i used to have rear fill my ears would ring after playin music and it wasn't from the bass since bass takes about 130 some deebeez to get your ears ringing well with me, now with my front stage it's like a concert vocals right in the middle of the dash, only when i roll down my windows about half way the imagin is great plus removin rear fill i got added subbass into the cabin area:veryhapp:

samson
04-24-2007, 10:46 AM
All I can say is I'm pretty picky about sound quality. I like a flat resonse from top to bottom. Dips and peaks drive me crazy. I know what I like to hear. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

luvinthebass
04-24-2007, 10:58 AM
i always have a tendency to crank up the highs if the song doesn't have that much treble

req
04-24-2007, 11:03 AM
All I can say is I'm pretty picky about sound quality. I like a flat resonse from top to bottom. Dips and peaks drive me crazy. I know what I like to hear. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

well you keep on thinking that.

mr coustic :suicide:


i dont run rear fill because, simply, it will pull my soundstage to the rear. i have a volksawen GTi. its a coupe. if you cant hear the HLCD's from the back seat. you are deaf. at 109db\1w\1m and having ~35w... you will hear them. :rage:


but i could hook up my stock rear mids to the headunit and fade it forward and turn the internal amp on when my friends arent back there.

but hell. i just plain dont care what they want. maybe ill have them take the panels off and run the **** wire if they want to hear those speakers so **** bad lol. :cool:

as helotaxi said. my bass is not overly powerful. imo - its just right. my front stage is (well, it will be when i get the **** finished) loud enough.

just spend more monies on your front stage and dont waste it on other crap. and you will see what we mean.

AudioXtremes
04-24-2007, 11:22 AM
Wasn't it said by someone on here a while ago that only gheys enjoy "rear fill"? :laugh:


On a more serious note, all the reasons to not have it have already been stated, so I'll just make a brief summary:

1. Source is almost always stereo... it doesn't serve a purpose of necessity.
2. Screws up imaging... I've never been to a concert and stood with my back to the stage.
3. Detracts from the money you can spend on the front stage... allows for better front speakers and amp.
4. You can use the rear speaker openings (if in the rear deck) to vent sub pressure into the cabin.
5. If you don't have a sub stage, then an entry level sub and amp will often cost you in the same ballpark as a good set of rear speakers and amp.

1. So what
2. I've never been to a concert, I grew up listening to music in a car or HT so to me thats the way music is supposed to sound. Does that make it wrong? If you say yes please get a gun and use appropriately to kill yourself.
3. I have all the money I need to buy whatever speakers I want. Not bragging, I'm not rich.
4. Hatchback FTW!
5. Please, if you can afford a sub and amp for the price of rear fill your sub ***** asszorz.


I have rear speakers because its I watch movies and have a 5.1 proccessor. Yes I have a center channel behind my center vents.

samson
04-24-2007, 11:22 AM
just spend more monies on your front stage and dont waste it on other crap. and you will see what we mean.

Hey now, I REALLY like that little coustic sub. I used some of their stuff in the old days, thought I'd gambled and it payed off. It works well with my system.


Look man, you think I don't know what sounds good, I think it's all in your head. Let's agree to disagree because we're not going to agree. ;)

DejaWiz
04-24-2007, 11:52 AM
1. So what
2. I've never been to a concert, I grew up listening to music in a car or HT so to me thats the way music is supposed to sound. Does that make it wrong? If you say yes please get a gun and use appropriately to kill yourself.
3. I have all the money I need to buy whatever speakers I want. Not bragging, I'm not rich.
4. Hatchback FTW!
5. Please, if you can afford a sub and amp for the price of rear fill your sub ***** asszorz.


1. Read it again.
2. In response to the title of this thread I never said it was wrong for everyone.. just for me. I have a 5.1 HT and I've been to numerous concerts.... I can say it's my opinion that rear fill in a car is a complete waste of time and money.
3. Good! I'm happy for you. I really am. Unfortuantely many don't share that same luxury and have to make the most of what their budget alots.
4. Agreed. Same here.
5. Not necessarily.... I've heard $150-200 sub stages that sounded decent and blended well with the rest of the system (Mach5 + Profile with decent installation and tuning, for example). Just because it's not capable of winning an SPL or SQ competition does not automatically classify it as a ****** setup. If you say yes it does, please refer to and follow your advice in the last line of your response to #2.




I have rear speakers because its I watch movies and have a 5.1 proccessor. Yes I have a center channel behind my center vents.
And there's a big difference with running a 5.1 processor or just a stereo capable HU. As stated previously, you are running a setup that is quite rare in a mobile environment.

WantedIsHere
04-24-2007, 12:02 PM
i like rear fill personally... If you like it run it....

req
04-24-2007, 12:04 PM
Hey now, I REALLY like that little coustic sub. I used some of their stuff in the old days, thought I'd gambled and it payed off. It works well with my system.


Look man, you think I don't know what sounds good, I think it's all in your head. Let's agree to disagree because we're not going to agree. ;)

i will have to say i think YOU know what sound good to YOU. because that is objective. but regardless of that - stereo sound is STEREO SOUND. (ie: TWO channels) i dont know any other way it can be said. the name is even derrived by the definition.

i wont tell you what you think sounds good. ill only tell you what STEREO is supposed to sound like. it is factual to say, that stereo sound is RECORDED with two channels. a left and a right. it is factual to say, that the people who recorded it, recorded it to replay as STEREO playback. it is factual to say, the only HIGH FIDELITY (ie, as close to the origional recording as possible) playback, would assume a STEREO frontstage (in home or in car) with a summed sub output (wich is not always needed) and on top of that, it should be as flat as possible from 20hz to 20khz.

those are facts. if you want to argue with me about those facts. go right ahead. but they are facts. just as simple as that. if they are recorded in stereo - they were MEANT to play back in stereo. its not impossible to change that. but dare i say, it is the wrong way to do it? :uhoh:

samson
04-24-2007, 12:26 PM
The only thing I would argue is that you could not hear the rear channels in my vehicle. You hear left and right.

W8 a minute
04-24-2007, 02:08 PM
Thats because 4 speakers playing a stereo signal is still stereo. Just as four speakers playing a mono signal is still mono. My beef is with people saying they can "place" instruments on an imaginary stage when they were all recorded in mono in a sound booth.

But he is correct in saying the music was mixed using 2 monitors (l and r) and therefore intended to be played the same way. But you are also correct in saying they are still left and right and you don't neccessarly "hear" instruments in the rear.

There's much much more to this such as frequency wavelength vs interior length, speaker path lengths, frequency anomolies between left and right channel (very important), etc. but i'm at work and will have to wait until later to debate and learn.

headless
04-24-2007, 02:17 PM
While instruments may be recorded in mono in the soundbooth, they are then 'virtually placed' in the sound field by the sound engineer to re-build the lost staging. If you think that because 5 instruments are recorded separately and then mastered into a single track that those 5 instruments could not be placed in different positions virtually after the recording stage, you may need to do some research. Most recording studios use multiple mics to give the instruments different 'color' too, not a single source.

W8 a minute
04-24-2007, 06:52 PM
Most studio recordings aren't any better. Everything is recorded separately and then mixed through the board, eq'd, mixed again, effects added, mixed and eq'd again. Then the engineer does his best to create a fake sound stage that was never there to begin with.

Sure, there are some studio and live recordings that are recorded with only 2 mic's but you can count those on two hands. And the music isn't all that appealing to 90% of the people in the world.


As you can see I've already mentioned that, thanks. And this process isn't much more elaborate than the balance knob on your head unit. Delay can be added to either the left or right channel for any single instrument also. Using multiple mic's is for TONE, not imaging.

What most people refer to as a good sound stage or good imaging is actually a lack of localization. Localization is when you get a vehicle and your ears point you directly to the speakers. Your mind can tell exactly where the speakers are located by the sound. This is caused by peaks in the frequency response that are isolated to one side or the other. Kind of like when someone hits the wrong key while playing piano. Everyone can hear it and knows it's wrong. It stands out like a sore thumb.
For example, you run an RTA measurement on your system and you discover a peak at 3000hz on the left side only. Your ears will be consistently pulled to the left side throwing off your "imaging" completely. Just like that bad piano note. This is why it's best to run a separate EQ for each side and IMHO just as important as path lengths or speaker placement if not more. If you can get in a car you've never been in before, close your eyes, and find the speakers just by listening this is probably the reason why. In a well Eq'd system you should not be able to find the speakers. They should disappear completely. Back in the day competitors used to hand match drivers so the left side would be nearly perfect with the right side before the tweaking even began.

I sat in Richard Clark's Buick, in fact I farted in it. I know what good imaging should be...and he had speakers behind your head. It's all about the frequencies.

Note: these are the ramblings of a mere mortal and are mostly opinion. Feel free to disagree. I enjoy a good debate. It's the best way to learn.

funkyab
04-24-2007, 06:58 PM
THANK GOD MY SETUP IS ON A BOAT!!
Im glad i dont have to make this a consideration and spend countless hours with trial and error experiments to tune my preference!!

funkyab
04-24-2007, 07:02 PM
But then again,

in my car that i keep in Sweden (netherlands for the moment) i have eliminated almost all rear fill as i found that it decreased my overall sq. BUT.. i have front and rear running off the head unit and no capabilities to finely tune the sound.

helotaxi
04-24-2007, 08:02 PM
Regardless of how the sound engineer places the instruments left to right the fact remains that they are placed left to right and the system should reproduce that left to right placement.

My point, long and short, is that having rear speakers is not going to improve the fidelity of the system and it may hurt it. The title of the thread is "Why don't people use rear fill?" That is the answer. There is nothing to be gained in the way of fidelity by having it. Thus I don't have it. I'm not saying you shouldn't run rear speakers if you want to. I don't give a crap what you do in your system, I don't have to listen to it.

viperrgh2
04-24-2007, 08:19 PM
I currently plan on having rear fill because #1 I have a lincoln town car which is a big car and #2 I care about my rear passengers. Would front speakers with like 60rms a piece be heard loud enuf in the rear with alot of bas....?

adio
04-24-2007, 08:44 PM
u can use rear fill........... just fade the sound to the front and leave a little to the back