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DejaWiz
04-18-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm doing it. Finally. Just bought a brand new Coustic XM6 crossover for my SPX-177R's.

My question is this: Does anyone have any knowledge of how low the ring radiator tweeters will respond down to? I'm thinking of crossing them over at about 2600 Hz and then running the mids band-pass 75 Hz to between 2500-3100 Hz.

Power is from an Infinity 7541a... 100W to each mid and 65W to each tweeter.

Anyone have any advice for a good starting point before I really tinker with the xover points?

azbass
04-18-2007, 03:26 PM
hmm 2600 seems kinda high. well for me, i like my tweet tooplay way lower.

DejaWiz
04-18-2007, 03:35 PM
Ya know, it's funny you mentioned that. The X's have all those jumpers in the passive xover's and the xover points can range anywhere from 2200-3800 Hz.

I figured I'd start with one of the median frequencies that can be set with the passives, but I'm open to any and all suggestions.

genxx
04-18-2007, 04:21 PM
Depending on the tweeter but I think most are running tweeter between 2200 or 2400 for active. However some tweeter do not like to play this low. Is this a 2 way or 3 way set-up. If 3 way it would depend how high your midrange will play. If 2 way depends on if your mid woofer will play that high and still keeps its response intact. I will see if I can find some numbers to give you an idea of what other are doing and what seems to be the general rule of thumb. Problem we are running different set-ups. I do not personally know the Alpine and what is best for it, I wish I did and could help you out more.

Latina33
04-18-2007, 04:33 PM
Deja, I went active a couple of weeks ago, and I totally dig it! I'm running 75X4 to my Crystal SSCS6's, and they sound awesome....actually clearer and more detailed than they seemed to when they were being run passive.

I was able to switch my Alpine 7998 to 3 way mode to be able control the crossover and time alignment settings from the HU, and so far, it's been GREAT!

Good luck with the tuning!

DejaWiz
04-18-2007, 04:49 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my decision, Latina33.

genxx - the SPX-177R is a 2 way component set. Mids are 6.5in and ring radiator tweets are 1in. Appreciate the initiative to help me out.

Here's what is listed in the SPX OM for the mids and tweets:

MIDS:
Power Handling (RMS) - 40W :rolleyes: :laugh:
Freq Resp (-10dB) - 25-8kHz

TWEETS:
Power Handling (RMS) - 25W :rolleyes: :laugh:
Freq Resp (-10dB) - 600-60kHz yeah I can hear that high :cool:


Does this help anyone out in giving me some advice or ideas?

Again, thanks.

alphakenny1
04-18-2007, 04:51 PM
simply put, your mids won't play that low or high and same goes with the mids. my guess is somewhere between 80-3000 for mids and 2000-4000 and up for tweets. go out and experiment. usually with a 6.5 mid though 80hz @ 12db/oct is a good starting place.

DejaWiz
04-18-2007, 05:15 PM
simply put, your mids won't play that low or high and same goes with the mids. my guess is somewhere between 80-3000 for mids and 2000-4000 and up for tweets. go out and experiment. usually with a 6.5 mid though 80hz @ 12db/oct is a good starting place.

Yeah, I know... crazy what a manufacturer will put on paper. Thank you for the advice.

I was thinking of starting with bandpassing the mids 75 to 3100 Hz and HP the tweets somewhere around 2200 to 2600Hz.

Sub will be LP'd at 80 Hz.

Hmmm, maybe I will set the BP for the mids to 75-3000 Hz and HP the tweets at 2000 Hz to start with then.

The XM6 has 18dB/Oct HP (channels 1-2) and BP (channels 3-4) as well as 36dB/Oct LP (channels 5-6). Since it's a little steeper roll-off than 12dB/Oct, I was thinking that a LP 80 Hz for the sub and a BP starting at 75 Hz for the mids might blend a bit better. Thoughts?

krisfnbz
04-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Im Subscribed! I plan on going active later on in the future.

helotaxi
04-18-2007, 07:23 PM
The lower you go on the x-over freq, the less power the tweet will be able to handle. It's not a thermal issue it's an excursion (or rather lack of excursion) issue. Also note that the freq ranges listed are the -10dB points. Hardly near usable output 10dB down.

Final thing the top of the midrange low-pass on the XM-6 is 3khz.

DejaWiz
04-18-2007, 07:58 PM
The lower you go on the x-over freq, the less power the tweet will be able to handle. It's not a thermal issue it's an excursion (or rather lack of excursion) issue. Also note that the freq ranges listed are the -10dB points. Hardly near usable output 10dB down.

Final thing the top of the midrange low-pass on the XM-6 is 3khz.

Ah yeah, good point. So 3kHz it will be set at then.

Tempe
04-19-2007, 12:57 AM
Yeah that's why I did NOT buy that crossover. 3khz is pushing it if you go with small format tweeters. Here are some reviews and crossover point suggestions for this tweeter:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10458 (XT25)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1484 (XT25 and XT19)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7774 (XT19 boner thread)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8053 (XT19)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7256 (XT19 - extensive review halfway down page 1)

T

helotaxi
04-19-2007, 01:12 AM
You can go a lot higher (8kHz) on the tweet HPF, just not on the mid LPF.

Tempe
04-19-2007, 01:29 AM
But what's the point of stopping at 3khz on the mid if the tweet can be crossed over as high as 8khz??? To me I see that as an idiotic design. The mid HPF should match the sub LPF range, and the tweet HPF should match the mid LPF range IMHO :)

Usually you leave a gap or sometimes overlap, but the points should be relatively close to each other!

T

genxx
04-19-2007, 02:44 AM
Dejawiz-With the the 2 way you are going to have some gaps in freq response. Try to get as much of the freq. range covered as you can and them still sound really good, the way you like them. Unless you have an RTA to know exactly where the gap is or have a great ear(some people do) it will be hard to know exactly where the gap is to fix it. With a good 3 way up front it opens up many more options. You can add mid later, so just get it sounding good the way you like it.

If I was guessing I would say alphakenny1 is pretty **** close in his numbers and might have nailed it for you. Don't know what to tell you about the x-over looks like you stuck kinda on that one with what you got available.

bdawson72
04-19-2007, 05:30 AM
active scares me

Tempe
04-19-2007, 05:50 AM
Don't be skurrd, dawg!

DejaWiz
04-19-2007, 10:35 AM
Yeah that's why I did NOT buy that crossover. 3khz is pushing it if you go with small format tweeters. Here are some reviews and crossover point suggestions for this tweeter:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10458 (XT25)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1484 (XT25 and XT19)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7774 (XT19 boner thread)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8053 (XT19)
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7256 (XT19 - extensive review halfway down page 1)

T

Awesome reviews and info. Thanks for posting these!



You can go a lot higher (8kHz) on the tweet HPF, just not on the mid LPF.

I found these limitations odd myself since there is the probability of a huge freq gap, but I guess I thought it wouldn't be a problem since the passxovers cross as low as 2200 Hz...



But what's the point of stopping at 3khz on the mid if the tweet can be crossed over as high as 8khz??? To me I see that as an idiotic design. The mid HPF should match the sub LPF range, and the tweet HPF should match the mid LPF range IMHO :)

Usually you leave a gap or sometimes overlap, but the points should be relatively close to each other!

T

Yes, that is a pretty odd design for an active crossover. Again, my thoughts were that it'd work fine given the passxover cross points.



Dejawiz-With the the 2 way you are going to have some gaps in freq response. Try to get as much of the freq. range covered as you can and them still sound really good, the way you like them. Unless you have an RTA to know exactly where the gap is or have a great ear(some people do) it will be hard to know exactly where the gap is to fix it. With a good 3 way up front it opens up many more options. You can add mid later, so just get it sounding good the way you like it.

If I was guessing I would say alphakenny1 is pretty **** close in his numbers and might have nailed it for you. Don't know what to tell you about the x-over looks like you stuck kinda on that one with what you got available.


Yeah, the Coustic was cheap, so I couldn't complain... but if it's not going to yield any improvements over the passives, then I probably shouldn't bother.

Thanks for the recommendation for adding a mid later, but I think I'm about done spending money on this project (I'm surprised my wife hasn't kicked me in the nuts yet). The only mids I have are some Kicker SSMB6's sitting in the box, and I don't think they are going to be worthy of the effort needed to incorporate them to my soundstage.



active scares me

You think you're scared? Hehe - I log on this morning and there's a whole load of posts pretty much telling me the xover I just bought isn't going to do a **** bit of good with my SPX/Vifa XT soundstage. :laugh:

Stupid xover design limitations... :verymad: :suicide:
(but what can I expect for $50)

Oh well, if it's the concensus with everyone that I need to reconsider using this active xover, please reaffirm.... I might be open to other 3-way/5-6 channel actives if the price is as low as they can come.

A HUGE thanks to everyone that has contributed.. you really helped me out a lot!

genxx
04-19-2007, 12:01 PM
You can sell your crossover. You can pick up an ARC MX-3 pretty cheap 50-100.00 if you watch around for them. Maybe a PPI OMX-432 I think thats the right model number, saw them for around 75.00 or so. You got some options and could pretty much break even here. Might cost you an extra 25.00-50.00 or so to get you what you want. There are alot of options in the 75.00-100.00 range.

Just my random thoughts. Take them for what there worth.

DejaWiz
04-19-2007, 12:57 PM
Thanks genxx. I was hoping to find some units with the following criteria:

a.) 3 separate inputs and outputs (Front/Rear/Sub)
b.) Band Pass capable for Rear/Mid

I've found the following, but they aren't exactly the best (probably in the same league as the Coustic though)
- Profile RX30R
- Performance Teknique ICBM-7212 (looks to be almost the same as the Profile)
- AudioBling AX303P

And I did find one that might be of substantial quality:
- Memphis 16-X03

Anyone have any experience with any of those or care to comment?

DejaWiz
04-19-2007, 06:13 PM
Ttt

Tempe
04-20-2007, 03:37 AM
I don't know that specific Memphis unit, but I've had two used Memphis 16-CX35a crossovers. The first one the one channel went out completely. I got a second one used on fleabay. It worked great at first, but then the same exact channel died on me. Then it worked again. Now it works on and off. Being that it's used with no warranty, I gotta knock on it with my knuckles sometimes to get it to work. I don't plan on trying another Memphis crossover.

I need to get a new xover asap. If I stop being a cheepass I'd just get a new h/u with active processing haha.

So I typed this post up til the last paragraph at work and forgot about it for like 5 hours. I was gonna refresh to see if there were new replies, and I saw my incomplete post haha.

T

bass_lover1
04-20-2007, 11:19 AM
Just to clear this up, the tweeter in the 177R set is actually a .75" tweeter, based off the Vifa XT19, the XT25 is the 1" tweeter.

Also, when running active for the tweeters, I'll take the Fs, double it, and thats a good idea of about how low you can run them till you run into issues, it's not set in stone but something to consider.

I run my LPGs at 2.5k hz but w/ a 24db slope so I can get away with going at 2khz which I've done, but didn't care for the sound, their Fs is 1800hz FYI.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Just to clear this up, the tweeter in the 177R set is actually a .75" tweeter, based off the Vifa XT19, the XT25 is the 1" tweeter.

Also, when running active for the tweeters, I'll take the Fs, double it, and thats a good idea of about how low you can run them till you run into issues, it's not set in stone but something to consider.

I run my LPGs at 2.5k hz but w/ a 24db slope so I can get away with going at 2khz which I've done, but didn't care for the sound, their Fs is 1800hz FYI.

From the SPX OM:

Speaker Size: 1" (28mm)
Effective Diaphram Diameter: 28mm
Voice Coil Diameter: 19mm
Fs: 950 Hz

Are you sure it's the XT19 and that it'll perform well at double the Fs at 1900 Hz?

genxx
04-20-2007, 12:48 PM
There is a audio control 6xs on ebay. You might be able to get in on it at a resonable price then sell your coustic. The guy said he has alot of x-over modules and might be able set it up exactly the way you want for x-over freq.
Link below:
http://cgi.ebay.com/audiocontrol-6xs-crossover-white-in-box-with-extras_W0QQitemZ330109947068QQihZ014QQcategoryZ798 40QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Brian

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 01:01 PM
Thanks genxx. Although I'm not sure I like the idea of having to buy separate xover modules just to tune it... would rather have a unit with dials. AudioControl makes nice products, but that xover is just not for me.

helotaxi
04-20-2007, 01:08 PM
You don't have to buy modules. You can make them from resistors. Tells you how in the manual. Still a PITA but gives you pretty much a limitless range of adjustment. Just no adjustment on the fly. Gotta decide which is more important.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 01:13 PM
Oh so that's how it works... :D

Hmmm... might be do-able then. I could actually use my electronics degree!

alphakenny1
04-20-2007, 01:19 PM
to be honest, just jump on the 880prs wagon and call it a day. lol.

also again i can't emphasize how much experimentation is the most important part in going active. you'll hear about people playing so so speaker down to so so frequency in their car, their install. but if you take the same speaker and put it in your car, your install and play that speaker down to that frequency, it might sound like ***. so again hook it all up and start playing with frequencies.

genxx
04-20-2007, 01:22 PM
X2. Alphakenny1 FTW.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 02:26 PM
lol yeah, I wouldn't mind getting an 880PRS, but again, I don't feel like making such an investment at this point.

And I don't mind tinkering, that's half the fun in my book. The only limitation I see with the Coustic is the 3000 Hz cap for the band pass. If it went up to 4-5k, I think this thread would have died a while ago.

genxx
04-20-2007, 02:37 PM
yep. Thread would be dead. Yeah atleast its not like some of the threads here lately that have been just plain stupid. People can get something out of this.
Learn about the XM-3, other options and the pain that can be involved in going active. Also how to work around some of the problems.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 03:54 PM
You mean the Arc MX-3? And it's odd, but the MX-3 is about the only thing that doesn't have a dl'able OM....

http://www.arcaudio.com/arc-05/processors/mx3.htm


Does anyone have any specs or the file by chance? I'd like to know if it has 3 in + 3 out, band pass, and what the band pass high limit is.

[edit]
ehh, nevermind... here's the specs right from their web page.

3-way active crossover with sub-level remote control
High level input
Remote sub-level control
0-180 degree sub-woofer phase switch
Active bandpass switch
Butterworth 12dB octave slope
Qbass bass boost
Gold plated rca input and output connectors

Crossover frequencies : High/lowpass/bandpass 50Hz-8KHz
Crossover slope : 12dB octave Butterworth
S/N ratio : 102dB
Max output voltage: 4V rms
THD: 0.01%
Low level input voltage: 150mV - 2.5V rms
Dimensions: 6 3/16" x 6 7/8" x 1"


So that's looking to be exactly what I want.

genxx
04-20-2007, 04:02 PM
Dejawiz-I meant XM-6 got ARC stuck in my head. Someone hurry hit me with a bat in the head and get it out. Sorry

I will look at the info and see. I got one but its not at my location and I have never taken it out other than to make sure it was in like new condition. If it would work I might even sell it but not sure. I will see if I can find the info for you or get some on to take a picutre for me of it or look at. If the wife is at home and not the gym, I will see what I can do to get you some answers.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Grade A awesomeness man.

helotaxi
04-20-2007, 04:18 PM
Coustic used to make an XM-3 as well.

It is entirely possible that you're worried about nothing with the XM6 as well. 3k might be plenty high for your mid and you might want a bit of underlap on the crossover to get it to sound right.

genxx
04-20-2007, 04:25 PM
X2. I still think you should give it a go with the XM-6 first before doing anything else no sense jumping to many conclusions before you try it out. No need to spend money when you do not need to.

DejaWiz
04-20-2007, 04:36 PM
Oh I will try it out and see how it goes... ;) :D

I'm just fabricating a near-failsafe backup plan in case it turns out not to my liking.

alphakenny1
04-20-2007, 06:18 PM
i think the 880prs would be a great investment (sorry haven't read the whole thread if you stated why you won't buy it). you'll have everything up front at your finger tips to tinker with.

bass_lover1
04-21-2007, 06:40 PM
From the SPX OM:

Speaker Size: 1" (28mm)
Effective Diaphram Diameter: 28mm
Voice Coil Diameter: 19mm
Fs: 950 Hz

Are you sure it's the XT19 and that it'll perform well at double the Fs at 1900 Hz?


Sorry, Vifa rates their tweeters by voice coil size, 19mm ~= 3/4"

It IS the XT19, which is listed w/ a 3/4" voice coil, but 1" diaphragm.

DejaWiz
04-21-2007, 10:55 PM
Sorry, Vifa rates their tweeters by voice coil size, 19mm ~= 3/4"

It IS the XT19, which is listed w/ a 3/4" voice coil, but 1" diaphragm.

Thank you for the clarification on this!

DejaWiz
09-20-2007, 06:25 PM
Well shoot. It's been a long time since this thread showed any of us any love. I still haven't gone active yet for one reason: the SPX mids are somewhat midbass weaksauce.

Things I've been pondering:
1. Dump the XM-6 then break down and get an 880PRS?
2. What mids to get that will work great off-axis since they'll be in the factory door locations and respond fairly well up to around 3.5kHz in such an orientation?
3. Use the XT19's or get tweeters that exhibit better off-axis performance since they will be in the factory sail panel locations?
4. Decisions, decisions.....

Been doing a lot of reading over at DIYMA.

Anyone care to provide suggestions or thoughts in general?

alphakenny1
09-20-2007, 07:05 PM
budget on mids? also 3.5khz is asking a lot of a mid to play. i have had great results underlapping xover pts. i feel that its great for integration between the tweeter and mid, as it it'll reduce the overlapping frequencies being played by both the mid and the tweet.

also get the 880prs. its just hard to believe they put in a L/R eq on that thing plus L/R phase control.

DejaWiz
09-20-2007, 07:14 PM
budget on mids? also 3.5khz is asking a lot of a mid to play. i have had great results underlapping xover pts. i feel that its great for integration between the tweeter and mid, as it it'll reduce the overlapping frequencies being played by both the mid and the tweet.

also get the 880prs. its just hard to believe they put in a L/R eq on that thing plus L/R phase control.

Budget on mids: $70ish each
Budget on tweets: $40ish each

If 3.5k isn't really feasible, then I'd like to find tweeters that can play down to where a mid would start to roll off. Not saying I won't be open to the possibility of running the mids and tweets with an underlap, but I just want to have the possibility of running matching xover points so I can fiddle fvck with it without any nagging limitations.

alphakenny1
09-20-2007, 07:20 PM
i'd do the ever so popular seas neo alum/textile and peerless exclusive. tweet is $30 each and mid is like $75 each. they'll mate just fine xover wise as the neos can play pretty low. npdang has his neos crossed at 1.5khz if i recall.

DejaWiz
09-20-2007, 07:48 PM
Wow, 1.5k. That's nuts. Good to know though.

So the Exclusives and the trusty Seas Neo's, eh? Those have been on my list of possibilities for quite some time now. Thanks for the recommendations.

alphakenny1
09-20-2007, 08:57 PM
i've listened to the 5.5 exclusives for a brief moment and from i gather from it was the midrange was detailed and had plenty of clarity. obviously midbass wasn't there for me as at the time i was running 8's. i've read people liking the midbass of the 7's.

now the neos on the other hand are gems. im running the aluminums and they are smooth, detailed, and very natural. npdang is running his at 1.5 but i'm running mine at 4khz @ 24db because im running a 3 way front stage. but also i've listened to a car where they were running the neos in a 2 way front stage and he had it crossed at 4khz @ 12db/oct and it sounded great.

DejaWiz
09-20-2007, 10:26 PM
That's good to know, thanks! And for the price they are offered at they certainly are hard to pass up.

genxx
09-21-2007, 06:22 AM
The graph response on the 7" and 5.5" have very similar freq. response graphs. They almost mirror each other. The Major difference to me looks like the 7" is about 2db louder from 70hz-3khz. Both look like they have a pretty flat response. The 5.5" looks flat from about 80hz-3khz. This is going to sound weird but the 7" looks flat from about 75hz-4khz.

The Sea Neo would work well with either one.IMO Neither speak appears to have a real heavy bottom end but for a 2-way in this price range not sure you are a going to get any better.IMO

I would also look at the Seas P18RNX if you could keep it no more than 30 degrees off-axis. The Dayton RS150 and RS180 if you wanted to start out even cheaper on the active side.

Also if you could find a pair would be the Seas CD18RE-MDS.

Just keep doing some research on DIYMA and check out madisound, partsexpress and timbre-audio.

I would just use a HU to handle everything. In the budget range I would use either the 880PRS or Clarion DXZ775USB.

Well there is my .2 cents for whats its worth.

I will say this Alphakenny1 has more exeprience with these DIY than I do. So Alphakenny1 please correct me if I am wrong about anything I stated.

DejaWiz
09-21-2007, 11:12 AM
Thanks for the reply genxx.

I just looked at the response graphs for the 7" and the 5.5", and man that is odd.

As far as off-axis, they'll be placed in the doors, so getting them 30deg or less will not happen.

mikey7182
10-04-2007, 04:54 AM
I've got a set of Premier TS-C720PRS for sale if you're interested... mildly used for about 3 months or so... and a lot better midbass than others I've heard. Reviews seem to rave about both off-axis response and running them actively :) PM me if you're interested :) They'll probably cost you less than buying those other separates if that is the route you want to go...

Mike

CJL
10-04-2007, 06:30 AM
Im looking to go active also so this thread has alot of great info and has got me looking into the ARC MX-3 xover.

Tempe
10-04-2007, 10:33 AM
I've got a set of Premier TS-C720PRS for sale if you're interested... mildly used for about 3 months or so... and a lot better midbass than others I've heard. Reviews seem to rave about both off-axis response and running them actively :) PM me if you're interested :) They'll probably cost you less than buying those other separates if that is the route you want to go...

Mike

Howdy n00b, or should I say next door neighbor :D

DejaWiz
10-04-2007, 10:33 AM
I've got a set of Premier TS-C720PRS for sale if you're interested... mildly used for about 3 months or so... and a lot better midbass than others I've heard. Reviews seem to rave about both off-axis response and running them actively :) PM me if you're interested :) They'll probably cost you less than buying those other separates if that is the route you want to go...

Mike


PM sent!!!

jblayz1
10-04-2007, 11:54 AM
i went active a couple weeks ago and i am still fine tunning things. sounds incredible. i have my CAL-25's at 3.2k @ 18 and the mids are 2.5k @ 12. EQ-flat

DejaWiz
10-04-2007, 11:56 AM
What mids do you have, jblayz1?

jblayz1
11-07-2007, 08:56 PM
i just realized i never answered your post. must have had smoked good budz last month...hehehe. i've upgraded my comps since then. i now have the Phass HR6.5's in my car. mids 3.2 @ 12db highs 4k @ 12db. i still have to play with the axis on the tweeters. haven't had time to do that yet. they're in the door at 90 axis.
i'm really interested in hearing the Peerless exclusive 7's in my car with a set of seas neo's or peerless HDS's. But the Phass comps sound really suprisingly good. IMO better than the Rainbow CMX's i had. but i'm sure there's better, you know how that car audio OCD can be....:crazy: