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Jlace
03-23-2007, 07:18 AM
I'm planning a new build in my car. My other car I ran focals but they won't fit, so I'm off looking at new things for this build in a 1998 BMW 528i.

Can't do more than a 5.25 and 2 5/8" depth in the door. Stock is 5.25 and 2.25" deep. What driver?

Can't do more than 1" tweet in the apillar. The grills are there and the tweet must go behind that little grill. What driver?

Power is not an issue, I have PLENTY. PPI ART, Lanzar Opti's etc. At min. 100w RMS on the front stage on a Nak cd-400. Audiocontrol EQ, Elemental Design ed12 in a sealed box on a Opti 500.2. SQ is my ONLY concern not SPL. I'm NOT an SQ competion guy and don't need that level.

No kick panel options are available. It MUST be doors at 5.25 and exsiting apillars locations. At maximum I want to spend $300.00 for tweets and drivers, less if I can and still have premium sound.

I'm considering Imaging Dynamics cx54 at $169.00 (Frequency Response 55Hz - 4kHz in door) and maybe the nx30 silk dome tweets at $100.00 (Frequency Response: 900-25,000 Hz).

I'm sure there are other options I should consider and I'm not up on all the lastest and greatest sleeper companies out there. It's been years since I did a new build and I'm sure much has changed. Coming from Focals though, my ear have been spoiled. Please help me with driver selections.

Thanks,
Joe

MiniVanMan
03-23-2007, 12:26 PM
Are you looking to run active, or are you looking for a passive setup. If you want active, well then you can do a lot with your budget.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 12:27 PM
Active is fine.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 12:33 PM
^^

In that case, what will your amp do x 4 ? You said 100watts, but I'm assuming that's only x 2 ?

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:05 PM
I have the Opti 200.2
100x2@4 ohms

PPI art
50x4 @4 ohms
200x2 at 4 ohms bridged

and my sub amp 500x2
900W x 1 at 4 ohms bridged

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:12 PM
Good deal. 50x4 is plenty for most active setups.

I'm not sure about your h/u's capability for this, but for $300 you could do a full 3-way active setup. You have 50x4 for tweet & midrange, and 100x2 for midbass.

Might as well. :confused:

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:21 PM
I'm not planning midbass drivers at this point, it's just what I can do in the door and apillars.

My head unit is Nakamichi cd-400.
Maximum Power Output: 47 W * 4 (4 ohms)
Frequency Response: 15 - 30,000 Hz 1 dB
Output Level: 4 V
D/A Converter Type: 24-bit D/A converter
Frequency Response: 20 - 20,000 Hz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: Better than 100 dB
Dynamic Range: Better than 90 dB
Total harmonic Distortion: 0.005% (1 kHz)

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:23 PM
^ I saw that. Just not able to tell what kind of control you have on the h/u.

Okay. So, with tweeter & mid, do you mind using 2 amps to give one set 100x2 & the other 200x2? Or do you want to use just one and give all 50x4?

Sorry for all these questions. I'm just trying to find out what you're looking to do exactly.

60ndown
03-23-2007, 01:23 PM
cut holes in your new car and fit your old audio equip.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:24 PM
^^ Kind of going off that...have you considered just using 3/4" MDF rings? The 3/4" would give you basket clearance and should allow you to use 6.5".

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:30 PM
It's the way the doors are cut, the moldings won't let you go bigger than 5.25. The door pocket falls off at the bottom, so I'm stuck with a 5.25.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:31 PM
It's the way the doors are cut, the moldings won't let you go bigger than 5.25. The door pocket falls off at the bottom, so I'm stuck with a 5.25.

I C

Okay. 2 Amps, or 1?

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:31 PM
Bmw 5 series is not the Ultimate sound machine.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:34 PM
again



Okay. So, with tweeter & mid, do you mind using 2 amps to give one set 100x2 & the other 200x2? Or do you want to use just one and give all 50x4?

Sorry for all these questions. I'm just trying to find out what you're looking to do exactly.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:35 PM
My orginal plan was to run the PPI on the front stage and the Opti 200.2 on the midbass drivers but there is no room in the doors for a midbass driver and unless I put those in the rear deack( not optimal) then I just won;t have midbass. There is Zero room in the kicks.

Now I'm thinking using the 200.2 on the front stage or just the A404 at 200x2.
Either way, two speakers up front and the sub.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:36 PM
no I don;t mind using ALL my amps.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:39 PM
I see where your going, 100x2 on the tweets and 200x2 on the mids.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:41 PM
My orginal plan was to run the PPI on the front stage and the Opti 200.2 on the midbass drivers but there is no room in the doors for a midbass driver and unless I put those in the rear deack( not optimal) then I just won;t have midbass. There is Zero room in the kicks.

Now I'm thinking using the 200.2 on the front stage or just the A404 at 200x2.
Either way, two speakers up front and the sub.

I got that part. My point is, if you do go with an active set you'll have to have 4 channels of amplification. Thus, the reason I asked the question. You have the option of doing 50x4 all around, or having 2 amps deliver 100x2 and the other pushing mids @ 200x2.

It's your choice. If you have room and don't mind wiring up a 2nd amp, then that's fine. If not, then 50x4 watts will do fine for an active setup.

HOWEVER, if you want to go passive then that changes everything, and you only need to use one amp (the 200.2) on the front stage.

Active or passive is the major deal here. Then figure out what power if you go active. Until then, it's hard to suggest any component set, or individual speakers.

:)

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:42 PM
I see where your going, 100x2 on the tweets and 200x2 on the mids.

Ahhh, you beat my post! haha.

Okay...now.


To recap.

You're going Active.

Power:
Tweets- 100x2 rms @ 4ohm
Mid- 200x2 rms @ 4ohm

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:47 PM
Haha, I'm slow but I'm getting there.

Ok, now here's the rub and this may change things from active to passive. :)

My doors won;t allow anything larger than 2 5/8" deep, that's MAX with spacers.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:54 PM
I could pick up a 2 way active xover like this for under 100.00.
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/OPTIX2B/detail.asp

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:56 PM
Haha, I'm slow but I'm getting there.

Ok, now here's the rub and this may change things from active to passive. :)

My doors won;t allow anything larger than 2 5/8" deep, that's MAX with spacers.

The depth doesn't matter for active or passive. You can find speakers in both categories that will meet those requirements, or not meet those requirements.

You're golden.

Give us time. I've got to go to the chiropractor and won't be back online for a while, but there are plenty here who can help. Hopefully we've got a good start here and others can just pick up & give active speaker suggestions.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 01:57 PM
I could pick up a 2 way active xover like this for under 100.00.
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/OPTIX2B/detail.asp

You could, but your amps may suffice, along with the h/u's controls.


We need to know what your h/u can do as far as x-over points & slopes. Also, what your amp's specs as far as that goes, as well. ;)

Jlace
03-23-2007, 01:57 PM
or maybe just get this one
http://www.sjgreatdeals.com/tb-optix10.html

Jlace
03-23-2007, 02:08 PM
My HU has no eq. Only tone controls for high mid and bass and a seperate sub out.

The Opti 200.2 has built in xovers adjustable on the amp but the PPI does not.

I think I need an xover network anyway.

MiniVanMan
03-23-2007, 03:24 PM
Just because you're relegated to a 5 1/4" driver does not mean you're stuck with no midbass options. There are some great drivers out there that will do very well in the midbass 80-100 hz area. Some that come to mind are listed with links as follows.

Seas L15

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=1885366.7477&pid=1038

Aurum Cantus AC130

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-404

The Seas CA15

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=1885366.7477&pid=1044


There are others, but those immediately come to mind. The CA15 will be the easiest to work with. The AC130 was tested by Zaph and had a Qts of over .6, even though the listed spec is .29 (which is still fine), so that's a great option in a car door. And the L15 is just an all around great driver if you have at least an 18db crossover. I'd put the L15 with the better midrange clarity, good midbass, but nasty cone breakup, hence the need for a high order low pass. The CA15 can naturally roll off on the top end making it very easy to work with, but midrange clarity is a little lacking. Midbass is good, but can be a bit bloated. The AC130 will have good midbass, and midrange clarity somewhere between the L15 and CA15, and be easier to work with than the L15.

Personally, I'd love to see somebody try the AC130, but the L15 is a great driver. If your tweeter amp can handle the crossover duty (i.e. has a high pass that can do at least 2.5-4k), then the CA15 would be great as you can run it just using a high pass on the amp at 80-120 hz, and let it roll off naturally, then blend the tweeter with the tweeter amp's crossover.

For tweeters, I'd suggest the LPGs for the Aurum Cantus and CA15. For the L15 the Seas Neo tweet (either aluminum or fabric).

Jlace
03-23-2007, 05:17 PM
Thank you! That's so many more options than I came here with. Wow, AC130 38hz -7000 out of a 5.25...sound pretty impressive to me or am I missing something?

Tweeters are another issue here. The space allowed is not very much. 1" wide and 1" deep is about all I can get if that. 25mm-28mm the installer said.

MiniVanMan
03-23-2007, 05:40 PM
Wow, that's going to be tough. That's not much room at all. You said you have 1" deep to work with? Also, is there a grill in the way? Once behind the grill how much room side to side do you have to work with?

Maybe a flush mount won't work, but something recessed back behind the grill could, if there is an existing grill.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 05:55 PM
Here's a photo.

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 06:09 PM
MiniVan,...DIY guy?

I just joined up over there. Glad you're here because I was needing someone to help in this thread with more knowledge about non-comp speakers than me.

Thanks for jumping in.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 06:23 PM
I appreciate both of you :) I don;t switch out speakers, I build the system and enjoy it and keep my cars for 10 years or more.

Jlace
03-23-2007, 06:27 PM
I guess I could hole saw the door frame and get a deeper tweet in there, I have enough room left and right to go bigger but any tweet could not have a mounting bracket around it.

MiniVanMan
03-23-2007, 06:33 PM
MiniVan,...DIY guy?

I just joined up over there. Glad you're here because I was needing someone to help in this thread with more knowledge about non-comp speakers than me.

Thanks for jumping in.

Yeah, I'm a regular over there.

That picture is deceiving. I'm betting with all the curves and bends, you really do have a very limited space.

You could fabricate pretty easily something to fit in that space. Using the original grill though will be limiting.

How wide is the tweeter shown in the picture, and how deep is it? Is there a way to tell how much space you have between the edge of the tweeter and the back of the grill?

Jlace
03-23-2007, 06:53 PM
I just measured it, it's 1" across and about 1" deep max without cutting or bending the door frame. I don't have a real problem "adjusting" that door frame if I need to and either cutting it out or bending it back into itself. Side to side I have about 2".

bikinpunk
03-23-2007, 07:15 PM
Something about cutting the door frame doesn't sit well with me.

There's a lot of engineering that goes into the structure of that specific part. It would be horrible if that cut propogated a failure if you get hit in the side. Just a warning...

MiniVanMan
03-23-2007, 08:40 PM
Don't cut the door frame.

Making a new grill to fit the existing one wouldn't be that difficult. But before we go into that, how would the following tweeter work in that area?

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/lpg.pdf

Specifically the 25, or 26 at 48 mm wide and 10 mm deep.

That tweeter would mate well with either the AC130 or the CA15.

The following if you could fit it would work very well with any of the three I suggested earlier.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=504741.16415&pid=669


Take a 3/4" thick piece of wood and cut it to 2" x 2". Actually anything 2" x 2" x .75" would work. See how that would fit behind the stock grill. Keep cutting it down till you see exactly how much room you have.

I think you can see where I'm going with this. Let's find out exactly what can be fit back there.

Jlace
03-24-2007, 03:31 AM
My installer told me to get something in the 25-28mm range. At least I think I understood him correctly. There "may" be another option too.

Please look at the red arrow. Stock is a 2.5" midrange in this location.

I would be nice to use that apillar for tweet, the AC130 for midbass and a 2.5 midrange to help boost the lack of midrange of the AC130. That is..if I can get a 2 7/8 inch driver in the door. I was told 2 5/8 with spacers. "Maybe" we can sneek another 1/4" in there.

BTW, I saw a test Zaph did on the Vifa vs, seas tweet here. Zaph knows his stuff.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-62142.html

I think I will drive back to the installer again today and see what depth he can do and what physical mods he suggests. It's over an hour to get to him and I've been out there 3 times so far. I want this build as good as it can be and don't mind spending time to get it right. I just want to make sure what I do is right though.

Jlace
03-24-2007, 08:09 AM
took the grill off. Looks like it's 1 5/8" across and at least 1" deep maybe more because I could not get that driver out.

I believe the stock BMW 528i configution is something like this:

Front System: 3 way component set
Front Midbass:5.25in
Front Midrange:2.5in
Front Tweeter: ~5/8in

Rear System: 2 way
Rear Woofer: 6x9
Rear Tweeter: ~5/8in suspended above the 6x9

MiniVanMan
03-24-2007, 02:22 PM
I'm starting to think that the Morel MDT12 will be a great option. I know it can extend low enough to mate up with a 7" midbass mounted well off-axis, so a 5 1/2" should be no problems. If you are concerned with the midrange clarity, then the L15 is the driver for you. With the MDT12 you should have no problem crossing over the L15 early enough to avoid the wicked (as Zaph stated) cone breakup. The MDT12 also looks like it will fit into the stock tweeter location which is a bonus. If it doesn't then it will definitely fit into the stock midrange location.

Zaph has a design using the L15 and a Seas Aluminum tweet. He used a 6db slope with a notch filter for the cone breakup (basically a bastardized second order filter). That translates to me that a 18 or 24 db slope should make it virtually inaudible.

I really think you should stick to 2-way and make that work. The available midrange choices at the size of the stock location are very, very limited, and really act no better than a midsized format tweeter.

The MDT12 is a very nice sounding tweeter. It's shallow enough to fit into the stock location, and could probably be manipulated into that area. It's a very smooth, and detailed tweeter.

So, my final suggestion is the L15 mated with an MDT12. The AC130 is still a great option if that's the route you'd rather go, but the L15 will have better midrange clarity, with very little sacrifice in the midbass.

Jlace
03-24-2007, 04:36 PM
Ok, L15 and Mdt12 it will be then. I went out to meet with the installer and he was unavailable. It's a 2 hour ordeal out there and back and I've made 3 trips so far. The next trip I make will be for the install.

Lets. recap so I have this right:

Mdt12 at top door location shown in post #38 powered by my 100x2.
L15 in door on a 18db or 24db slope powered by my 200x2
ED12 sub powered by 900x1

Now, what are my xover points for each driver and what xover network model and brand should I buy?

MiniVanMan
03-24-2007, 05:33 PM
If you can fit the tweeter in the A-Pillar location, I'd try that first.

As for a crossover, you'll need something with a bandpass capability. The crossover in my sig works very well, and uses an 18db slope, it's the Coustic XM-5e. The Memphis 16-X03 is very good as well as a bunch of others. I'm on the assumption that you're trying to keep the cost down, so I'm not recommending some of the higher priced options like the RF 360.2, or PPI DCX-730.

Jlace
03-24-2007, 05:52 PM
Got it, apillar if I can.

Yes cost is always a factor. I just need something that will do what's it's supposed to do and nothing else. Once complete I won't be touching what the installer finishes. As I stated, my audio goes in and then it's done for this car as long as I have the car which is usually forvere. I'm not a speaker HU bigger and better and switch every other month kind of guy.

The installer suggested Audiocontrol EQT or EQL. We talked about a lot of things that day and so I appreciate all your advice. I'm not a name brand snob, just something that won't add noise and can get the job done as you've outlined here. It could be pink and basic for all I care :)

MiniVanMan
03-24-2007, 08:19 PM
The audio control stuff is good, but the EQT or EQL will do nothing for you in this situation. They're EQ's not crossovers. The DQX, and DQXS are great units, but definitely don't fall in the realm of simple, and at $500.00 are definitely not budget units.

Units like the DQX and the PPI DCX-730 have many more features than just crossovers. For fine tuning a system, they're extremely valuable. For your situation, I'd stick to the Memphis unit. That is unless you see yourself starting to care about equalization, and time alignment in the future. If that does happen you can alway upgrade your deck instead to a Pioneer 880PRS, for about $350.00.

If you're patient you can probably find the Memphis 16-X03 on ebay for under $100.00. That would put your total cost to under your proposed budget of $300 with speakers. Even if you buy that unit retail, you should still be okay on budget.

Jlace
03-25-2007, 06:21 AM
You have been a very helpful to me, thank you.

I hoped I could do this on a reasonable budget. I'm a member of most of the major BMW forums and this model car of car is the one that is the most people find almost impossbile to upgrade to any great degree without spending large sums of money or cutting the car. Even then, most end up with mbquart and kicker. I don't have to own the very best on the planet but something that is a sizeable upgrade makes sense. Seas and Morel go a long way to that very purpose.

The dash kit has to be custom made for this car. I have looked at everything made for this car and there is NOTHING that makes any sense at all. As a matter of fact, the dash kist are down right idiotic. This model BMW is the e39 and while there may be more aftermarket parts for this body style than any car EVER produced, there is not a dash kit that does not look like a total hack and an after thought. Trust me, we have all looked. My only choice is custom made and this is yet another audio challenge here with this car.

I tend to follow the addage,."You get 90% of the sound from the first $1000.00 and then spend another $5000.00 to get another 5%." Close is good enough for me. Case in point is my sub. The ed10a needs very little power, works well in smallish enclosures yet is clean and punchy. Do I really need 2 12's? Not for me. No, I can't hit 20hz but a clean 30 is close enough for me and I can enjoy the car without chest pains. This car is my daily driver so SQ not SPL is the name of this game.

My son's car has been broken into 3 times to steal his stereo gear. His HU said, "I am expensive, please steal me." In spite of having alarms systems the crooks got away with what they could and left the car in broken glass. That's one reason my choice for HU was the Nak cd-400. Flashy it's not (no dancing dolphins on 7" LED) but has very solid clean sound and looks stock on the BMW. This HU will come out of my older BMW and it was never touched by thieves. Why would they steal what looks like a $50.00 radio?

I'm trying to be smart about all of this across the board.

Jlace
03-25-2007, 09:09 AM
Ok, I did as you said.

I bought this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=270103352651

Ok, now what should be my xover points on these speakers?

MiniVanMan
03-25-2007, 12:51 PM
You have been a very helpful to me, thank you.

I hoped I could do this on a reasonable budget. I'm a member of most of the major BMW forums and this model car of car is the one that is the most people find almost impossbile to upgrade to any great degree without spending large sums of money or cutting the car. Even then, most end up with mbquart and kicker. I don't have to own the very best on the planet but something that is a sizeable upgrade makes sense. Seas and Morel go a long way to that very purpose.

The dash kit has to be custom made for this car. I have looked at everything made for this car and there is NOTHING that makes any sense at all. As a matter of fact, the dash kist are down right idiotic. This model BMW is the e39 and while there may be more aftermarket parts for this body style than any car EVER produced, there is not a dash kit that does not look like a total hack and an after thought. Trust me, we have all looked. My only choice is custom made and this is yet another audio challenge here with this car.

I tend to follow the addage,."You get 90% of the sound from the first $1000.00 and then spend another $5000.00 to get another 5%." Close is good enough for me. Case in point is my sub. The ed10a needs very little power, works well in smallish enclosures yet is clean and punchy. Do I really need 2 12's? Not for me. No, I can't hit 20hz but a clean 30 is close enough for me and I can enjoy the car without chest pains. This car is my daily driver so SQ not SPL is the name of this game.

My son's car has been broken into 3 times to steal his stereo gear. His HU said, "I am expensive, please steal me." In spite of having alarms systems the crooks got away with what they could and left the car in broken glass. That's one reason my choice for HU was the Nak cd-400. Flashy it's not (no dancing dolphins on 7" LED) but has very solid clean sound and looks stock on the BMW. This HU will come out of my older BMW and it was never touched by thieves. Why would they steal what looks like a $50.00 radio?

I'm trying to be smart about all of this across the board.

That's an excellent approach. I definitely like your "90%" rule, and will use that myself in the future. I'm all about finding the point of diminishing returns, which is exactly what you stated as well. I don't find the need to use the most expensive gear. I find more satisfaction in getting good gear to sound great.

I have a nephew now that wants me to put something in his car. I'm hesitant because I know it'll be stolen. So, I definitely know where you're coming from on that. I've got 16 years to worry about my own son, though (he was born 5 days ago. I know, shameless plug :D ).

Anyway, a good start for your crossover points will be about 2000 hz for the mid and about 2700 for the tweeter. When tuning by ear, make sure you're sitting in the location that you'll be listening from. With the L15 raise the crossover point till you stop hearing an increase in midrange. Since these drivers will be quite a bit off-axis, I doubt you'll get much more than 2000-2200 hz out of them. And if you start to hear some high pitched screaming from them, turn the crossover point down a bit because you've found the cone breakup at 8k. You just want to get them high enough to mate up to the tweeter. The MDT 12 can handle 2500 hz, and you'll probably end up underlapping the crossover points. I run my setup at about 2.2k on the mid and about 2.7k on the tweet. Others I've talked to use 2k and 2.5k respectively (this is from somebody that uses and MDT12 as well).

All in all, you want your tweeter to pick up duties as soon as possible.

Man, I still really want somebody to try out that AC130 though. That just looks like a great mid. Of course I'm waffling at this point, and do so when planning my own systems.

Jlace
03-25-2007, 03:29 PM
Hey contrats on the new baby! I'm suprised you have time to be here :)

Well...I have not bought the drivers yet so the AC130 is still an option. Why have people not tried it?

Jlace
03-25-2007, 03:42 PM
I found something on the ac130 here.

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/ac/KanToo.htm

Jlace
03-25-2007, 04:20 PM
and AC as a whole:

Leaving aside all of the hyperbole these speakers are actually manufactured by an OEM company in China and whilst they sell throughout China under the Haihuang label they have been given the more upmarket Italian name throughout the Western world to appeal to the snob instincts in some people. Aurum Cantus speakers are freely available from various Ebay traders at much cheaper prices or even directly from Cattylink in China at www.cattylink.com who will supply a huge range of Chinese audio equipment at very low prices but before you leap in with both feet why not read that Hifi Choice review more carefully as whilst it liked the Aurum Cantus speakers at 1,200 it gave top honours to the Triangle speakers which were significantly cheaper. The summary is here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/reviews/Hi%20Fi%20Choice%20p9.jpg). Further reviews of other Aurum Cantus speakers certainly don't give the impression that they offer the best value at their own price let alone against speakers costing three times as much as the review here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/HiFi_World.pdf) will show and this review (http://www.10audio.com/ac_leisure2se.htm) where the reviewer didn't think much of them at all.

MiniVanMan
03-25-2007, 05:33 PM
Hey contrats on the new baby! I'm suprised you have time to be here :)

Well...I have not bought the drivers yet so the AC130 is still an option. Why have people not tried it?

Thanks! Nothing else to do but hang out on the computer, and watch TV.

Anyway, I don't know why the AC130, or any of the Aurum Cantus stuff isn't more widely used. The ribbons are popular with the crowd that's willing to do the extra work ribbons require.

It's hard once you find some tried and true stuff. Seas, Peerless, and Vifa make such good speakers for good prices that it's hard to branch out from them.

Now to be fair, there isn't much call for 5 1/4" drivers as midbasses. Most commercial component sets use such high crossover points that you really sacrifice midbass by having to have a speaker that generates strong midrange up into the 3.5-5k range. Also, when putting two speakers onto a wall and judging which sounds better, (i.e. your typical car audio store), the one with the stronger highs, and midranges will be the one typically considered to sound better by the lay ear. Two good examples would be the Vifa MG14, and the Seas CA15. If you put both on a baffle and played them the MG would sound much clearer and brighter, but that's because it's designed more as a midrange than midbass. It's no surprise why the MG is a platform for a lot of different speakers. The CA15 will have much better midbass, but that won't be apparent just haphazardly mounted to a wall in a sound room.

MiniVanMan
03-25-2007, 06:20 PM
and AC as a whole:

Leaving aside all of the hyperbole these speakers are actually manufactured by an OEM company in China and whilst they sell throughout China under the Haihuang label they have been given the more upmarket Italian name throughout the Western world to appeal to the snob instincts in some people. Aurum Cantus speakers are freely available from various Ebay traders at much cheaper prices or even directly from Cattylink in China at www.cattylink.com who will supply a huge range of Chinese audio equipment at very low prices but before you leap in with both feet why not read that Hifi Choice review more carefully as whilst it liked the Aurum Cantus speakers at 1,200 it gave top honours to the Triangle speakers which were significantly cheaper. The summary is here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/reviews/Hi%20Fi%20Choice%20p9.jpg). Further reviews of other Aurum Cantus speakers certainly don't give the impression that they offer the best value at their own price let alone against speakers costing three times as much as the review here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/HiFi_World.pdf) will show and this review (http://www.10audio.com/ac_leisure2se.htm) where the reviewer didn't think much of them at all.

Good reads. Zaph did mention the distortion around the 3k point. So, if it was audible in a loudspeaker, that's a function of the overall design. Being mated with a ribbon, there's not much choice but to cross over high into the distortion range of the AC130. I don't worry too much when it comes to comparing between the home and car. You can get away with a lot more in a car, as there are just so many other sources of noise. The challenges of car audio are so much different than a home setup that it's generally unfair to compare the two.

Anyway, any distortion that is barely noticeable in a loudspeaker will be inaudible in a car. That's especially when one opinion said it was good, and the other said it was bad.

I still think you could get another 500 hz at the upper end out of that AC than the L15. That'll be easier on your tweeter.

I'm mostly curious about the AC130MKII. I really like glass/kevlar cones personally.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-404

Jlace
03-25-2007, 06:26 PM
That brings up another point. Should I seal the back of these L15's or use the air space in the door?

Originally, I wanted a 3 way with that Digital Design DDW.6.5 as a midbass driver. That won;t work anywhere in the front stage. I think what you designed here for me makes sense for price/performance.

MiniVanMan
03-25-2007, 07:15 PM
You can seal them up if you like. It looks like either would take about .175 ^ft and have an F3 of about 90 hz. With cabin gain you could get a good boost out of 80 hz and have a really nice front stage. I don't know how feasible it is to have an enclosure that large in there, but that would be ideal. Other than that, I'd run them free air. Both Fs' are low enough they should handle 90-100 hz pretty well. Just sealing the back of them will probably get you an F3 of about 120-130 hz with a peak at about 175 hz. You won't be able to get enough low end from them to make that worthwhile.

Mounting them will be critical. Mount them securely using MDF. The more surface area mounted to the door the better. Add as much mass as you can around the speaker to lower the resonance.

I'm anticipating that either one will do well in there, and will be a far cry better than ANY component set for the same money. I'm actually quite excited for you, and would love some reviews when all is said and done.

Jlace
03-26-2007, 06:58 AM
Ok thanks. Can we talk sub?

I have the Elemental Design ed10a.22 and sealed. I went to the ED site and saw this.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?products_id=398

Jlace
03-26-2007, 07:24 AM
I found my answer I think.

Downfire & rearfiring= SPL
Upfiring & forward firing=SQ

That answers that...

Jlace
03-26-2007, 02:39 PM
How does this look?

Opti 200.2 Amp- for Morel MDT12 Tweets - Apillars 1st choice, Midrange location 2nd choice. 100x2 bridged @4 ohms - xover start points 2.5-2.7k

PPI a404 Art Amp- for Seas L15 Mids - Doors with spacers
200x2 bridged @4 ohms - sealed - 18dB high-pass/24dB low-pass slopes - xover start points 2-2.7k - Add as much MDF mass surface area mounted to the door around the L15 to lower the resonance.

Opti 500.2 Amp- for ED10a Sub - Trunk
900x1 bridged @4 ohms - no bass boost from Xover network - forward firing - xover start point 50-80hz

MiniVanMan
03-26-2007, 03:04 PM
How does this look?

Opti 200.2 Amp- for Morel MDT12 Tweets - Apillars 1st choice, Midrange location 2nd choice. 100x2 bridged @4 ohms - xover start points 2.5-2.7k

PPI a404 Art Amp- for Seas L15 Mids - Doors with spacers
200x2 bridged @4 ohms - sealed - 18dB high-pass/24dB low-pass slopes - xover start points 2-2.7k - Add as much MDF mass surface area mounted to the door around the L15 to lower the resonance.

Opti 500.2 Amp- for ED10a Sub - Trunk
900x1 bridged @4 ohms - no bass boost from Xover network - forward firing - xover start point 50-80hz

Are you planning on deadening and sealing the doors? That will also have a huge impact on your midbass response.

Other than that, the setup looks really good.

bikinpunk
03-26-2007, 03:06 PM
Man, you're going to have a VERY nice setup. Wish I were as patient as you when I first started.

Jlace
03-27-2007, 04:13 AM
Thanks Bikini, I think it will sound the best it can be, thanks to Minivan. I've done this once before so I'm familar with Peerless, Vifa, Seas, and Morel. It just happened that last time I ended up with Focals.

Mini, yes dampening of the doors is part of the installers normal processes he said. I did not ask him about sealing the doors. He said he would seal the backs of the door drivers. Does he still need to seal the doors too and how does someone seal a door anyway?

I called Maddison sound yesterday to check availability of these drivers and they asked me what I was doing, when I told the tech he suggested the LPG 26na. He said "It's designed for off axis applications." If that's the case or not I don't know
and will defer the final answer to you. I think much of all this is snake oil after a certain point. I don't buy into the Monster cable/Streetwire business. Wire is wire unless my runs are 1000 feet. So, you tell me, final answer and I'll go with it, mdt or Lpg?

Jlace
03-27-2007, 04:20 AM
I also contacted EDesigns about upfiring. They told me not to worry about it. The guy was rather arrogant in the fact I asked about sag being 5% of Xmax. I guess I'll look to forward fire just to be on the safe side. He also told me NOT to the use 45hz bass boost on the Memphis xover. Then I asked him about xover point. His answer" Depends, 50-80hz maybe".

Here are my sub specs. I have .50cf sealed.

Specs E10a Subwoofer
Sealed Enclosure Yes
Vented Enclosure Yes
Infinite Baffle No


Box Size Suggestions Outline

Spec E10a Subwoofer
Sealed ( small ) .40cF
Sealed ( ideal ) .50cF
Sealed ( large ) .75cF
Vented ( ideal ) 2.0cF Tuned to 30Hz
Vented ( DDLoud) 2.0cF Tuned to 35Hz

Specifications
Qts: .406
Qes: .45
Qms: 3.615
Fs: 36 Hz
Re: 3.3
Vas: 20.1 L
Mms: N/A g
Bl: 21 T*m
SPL: 88.5 dB
Sd: N/A cm^2
Xmax: 15MM mm
Voice Coil: 62 mm

Magnet Width: 5.2"
Cutout Diameter: 9.25"
Mounting Depth: N/A"
Displacement: .08 ft^3
Outside Diameter: 10.5"

Jlace
03-27-2007, 05:47 AM
What's the break-in period for the L15's btw?

MiniVanMan
03-27-2007, 01:13 PM
What's the break-in period for the L15's btw?

No idea, actually. I understand that speakers "loosen up" after a while of playing, but I'm not convinced on any change in power handling or durability because of playing them at half power for a set amount of time. Anyway, I guess it never hurts, and I've been wrong before.

On to your other question, I tried really hard to suggest the LPGs, and they are a viable option. The guy at Madisound is correct in that they are designed for off-axis. Put those on-axis and they could tear your head off without some good EQ cutting on the top end. The big problem, and why I didn't suggest them is their Fs. It's rather high, and effectively only useable from about 3200 hz and above. I've heard of people getting 3000 hz with 24db slopes out of them, but that's risky, and not applicable in your situation. If you had picked the CA15, then the LPGs would have been my first suggestion. The CA18/LPG combo is a very tried and true combo that sounds fantastic. Typical CA problem though is that midrange dynamics are a bit low.

Now, if the guy at Madisound is confident that the L15 can handle 3000 hz, off-axis, then the LPG is a great option. With that cone breakup, though, at 8000 hz, that's going to be a tough sell for me.

Anyway, from the pictures it didn't look like the A-pillar locations were that much off-axis. If you said you wanted the CA15, then the LPG would be my first suggestion. If you changed your mind to the CA15, in order to use the LPG, you would in no way be wrong. The MDT 12, though, offers a bit lower response, and as long as it's not 60 degrees off-axis then sounds very nice, and will mate with the L15 a bit better.

I guess I never did ask what kind of tweeter you prefer. The MDT 12 is a very laid back airy tweeter, with good detail. It's a typical Morel sounding tweeter. The LPG is very bright and sparkly. Detail is superb, and they are great off-axis. Both have compromises and neither are the perfect tweeter for every situation. The best price to performance tweeter IMO is the Seas Neo. That tweeter is the best compromise of performance, ability, and cost. It's pretty big though for a small format, and would have been my first choice to couple with the L15, but it doesn't look like it would fit in your a-pillars.

Here's a link if you want to check it out and take some measurements.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4132415.16845&pid=2138

MiniVanMan
03-27-2007, 01:35 PM
Oh, and you can never truly seal a door. You basically cover all the holes as best you can, just to add a little back pressure for the speaker. The tighter the seal, the tighter the bass.

I'm not sure what your installer means by "sealing the back of the driver". That kind of scares me. Without sufficient air, the driver will be choked, and you'll defeat the strength of the L15, and that's it's midbass response.

I've put together some response graphs to illustrate my concern.

The first graph is the response of the driver with a 0.16 ^ft enclosure. F3 of about 90 hz. Nice flat response. Any peaking will be due to cabin gain, but should be realized lower than 100 hz.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/glevii/L15-2.jpg


The next graph is with a .05 ^ft enlosure. This would require a tube of 5.5" wide, by 5" long (taking into account driver displacement). Still not a horrible response. Would be a bit boomy at 150 hz, and if there's any resonance on your door panel this is probably where it will be realized. This could be bad, or it could be okay.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/glevii/L15-1.jpg


The next, and final one is if the driver is just sealed up in the back. This is a 5.5" tube at 2.75" long. Not at all a desirable effect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/glevii/L15.jpg

Jlace
03-27-2007, 02:48 PM
Well, I feel very stupid. My sub is e12a not a 10a. Gee, it's been a while. I saw a box spec for the 10a them measured mine. It didn't line up so off to Lowes I went and had them cut MDF to spec. Put a tape on the driver and called ED. It's a 12 NOt a 10. What a fool I am. I bought it used and it was sold to me as a 10 some years back. Glad to know I have a better sub and he didn't know what he had :)

I'm going with you on what you suggest for tweeter and leave it at that. I need to get on with it. Here's the final question on the tweeter:

Would it better to have the Morel in the apillar or the Seas 27AFNC in the midrange location?

MiniVanMan
03-27-2007, 03:06 PM
I couldn't answer that without listening to both.

The number one reason the Morel won out, IMO, is it would be okay in either location. If it didnt fit in the a-pillar, then the midrange location would work as well. If I could be sure the Seas Neo would fit in the pillars, then I'd say they'd be a good option. There are so many variables that it's really hard to make a concrete decision.

You have a PM.

Jlace
03-27-2007, 03:12 PM
Here are my sub specs now.

Elemental Designs e12A.22 Information

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
T / S Parameters
Qts : 0.41
Qes : 0.45
Qms : 4.71
Vas : 47.27
Sd : 0.0465 m^2
XMag : 29.5 mm
XSus : 26.0 mm
XMax : 26.0 mm
MMd : 216 g
Re : 3.61 ohm
Fs : 27.3 Hz
Bl : 17.49

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Physical Loudspeaker Data
Model : e12A.22
Mounting Depth : 6.625" (168 mm)
Mounting Diameter : 11.125" ( 282 mm)
Overall Loudspeaker Diameter : 12.5" (317 mm)

Jlace
03-27-2007, 03:28 PM
I have about 1 5/8" either way, the depth is more than enough on the midrange location I'm sure.

Jlace
03-27-2007, 03:41 PM
Aplillar

Jlace
03-27-2007, 03:53 PM
Humm, I found this on the Zaph site. What about using two tweeters?

Dayton ND16FA ($5) - Very nice "super-mini" dome 5/8" diameter. Press fits into an easily drilled 1-1/4" hole. Works well from 3500 Hz and up, making it a possible mate with small woofers or mids. Great value for $5.

MiniVanMan
03-27-2007, 05:09 PM
Humm, I found this on the Zaph site. What about using two tweeters?

Dayton ND16FA ($5) - Very nice "super-mini" dome 5/8" diameter. Press fits into an easily drilled 1-1/4" hole. Works well from 3500 Hz and up, making it a possible mate with small woofers or mids. Great value for $5.

Not a good tweeter below 4000 hz. Great tweeter for what it is, but it's duty is pretty much relegated to mating up with wideband drivers, and 3-way setups.

Jlace
03-27-2007, 05:56 PM
Ok, nix that idea.

My HU, the Nak is neutral to warm, nothing metalic about it. Does that make a difference?

Jlace
03-28-2007, 07:08 AM
It's worth another day to make this right. I went over to the Zaph site and found this...

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5706253.19997&pid=2202

Maybe it makes sense to go for this in the apillar and something else in the other tweeter location? My installer told me nothing over 25mm deep in the apllilar and this should fit there for sure. What does that do to the xover points/imaging though?

Also I finally go some good xover start points for my sub. They say 60-80hz. How does that meld with the L15 or should I go back and look at the ac130 based on my sub?

Jlace
03-28-2007, 09:40 AM
I suppose if there was a ribbon tweeter that you thought would fit, you would have mentioned it?

I'm intrigued with the idea of having one tweet in the midrange and one in the apillar. I saw a post where the guy said" I have the Seas 27TFFNC/G and run them 24db 2200hz-10000 then let my ribbons take over in the pillars. You may need some eq, the top end of the 27TFFNC/G rises slightly."

Jlace
03-28-2007, 10:56 AM
Here's something new any thoughts on this one?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Drivers/NorthD25.pdf

the read...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-31619.html

MiniVanMan
03-28-2007, 12:03 PM
It's worth another day to make this right. I went over to the Zaph site and found this...

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5706253.19997&pid=2202

Maybe it makes sense to go for this in the apillar and something else in the other tweeter location? My installer told me nothing over 25mm deep in the apllilar and this should fit there for sure. What does that do to the xover points/imaging though?

Also I finally go some good xover start points for my sub. They say 60-80hz. How does that meld with the L15 or should I go back and look at the ac130 based on my sub?

That's not a bad idea, but not as easy as you think. For one, it would be considered a 3-way front stage. Not the easiest thing to implement and tune. 3-ways give you some flexibility in speaker location, but the crossover work can be brutal. For your case, you'd either have to build some passive crossovers, or not use the Memphis and get a very high priced crossover unit like the AudioControl DQXS. I still think you're better off using a 2-way. With the available equipment you have, it's the best thing.

The L15 should hit 80 hz. It's a toss up on how much impact it will have at 80 hz, but reaching that shouldn't be a problem. The AC130 has a lower Fs, but that doesn't always translate to better midbass oomph.

If you can get 90 hz out of any of the drivers, you should be good. Your sub will roll off at 80, and the midbass will roll off at 90, and you should get a pretty good blend between the two. It'll all depend on what you can get out of the midbass. Like I said, 90 hz shouldn't be a problem, 80 would be fantastic.

Unfortunately, there aren't really any "right" answers. There are just a bunch of variables that you try to take into account and plan for as best as possible. Let's recap though.

CA15RLY

Pros - Very easy to work with.
Natural roll off on top end makes it mateable to many different tweeters.
Very neutral tonally.

Cons - Very neutral tonally. (Yes, it's both a pro and con, depending on taste.)
Will have very good midbass, but can be a little bloated when driven hard.


L15RLY

Pros - Detailed midrange
Snappier midbass than CA15 for a more controlled sound.
Lower Fs might allow for a tad bit lower high pass in the midbass region.

Cons - Brutal cone breakup at 8k makes driver only useable to possible upper 2k range.
Will require stout tweeter to mate with.


AC130MKII

Pros - Lowest Fs of the three.
Kevlar cone should give it neutral, but more detailed sound than CA15
High sensitivity

Cons - Don't know much about driver other than what Zaph says about it's brother the AC130F1.

As for tweeters, the one in the link above looks to be useable from about 4k up. Seeing some response graphs it looks a bit ragged below that probably resulting in some harshness. The CA15 could handle that, but you'd lose some off-axis response due to the high cutoff point. People rave about the Dayton ND20, and now this Aura tweet, but they have to be implemented correctly to get the most from them. They offer great sound quality at a great price, but their usability isn't that good. You'd still be better off with the CA15/LPG combo than the CA15/Aura.

If you're worried about tweeter off-axis response, then the CA15/LPG combo should be what you're looking at. I'm not horribly concerned with the HD talked about for the AC130 as it will most likely be inaudible in car. So, with that, I'd venture to say the AC130/LPG combo would probably work as well.

Jlace
03-28-2007, 01:52 PM
oh gee... I so want this done. :)

I'm set on the L15. Done, I want very clear mids and omph in midbass. Done.

I'm thinking the Seas 27TFFNC/G (H1396) will fit in the apillars, if not the midrange location.

Thought about adding that Aurasound NT1-204-8D as a super tweeter above 12000 in the apillar and the 27tff in the midrange. Is that the right thing to do and go passive inline on that one driver? Or is that more trouble than it's worth?

cross over 80hz sub.

MiniVanMan
03-28-2007, 01:59 PM
The more I research, the more I'm thinking the AC130 might actually be the best driver for this situation. It's looking like the MK2 has a slightly higher breakup than the F1, but it's not very high, and makes the driver very usable up into the 3k range (which would meet up with the LPGs just fine). The F1 does have the distortion at 1.8k, but most likely inaudible in a daily driving situation. Vehicle off, eyes closed, and just the right song, on just the right recording might be audible, but if you listen to music like that, get a home audio setup.

I don't know what the difference between the F1 and the MK2 would be tonally. I don't know if it's the cone material that causes the distortion at 1.8k or the motor. If it's the motor, then the MK2 will probably yield less distortion. It's probably the case either way, and if it's a concern might be worth the extra few dollars.

Either way, I think it might be a good setup. I can't be positive because frankly I've never heard it. However, Zaph's T/S parameters are making me a believer. All other things being equal in his testing process (which can't be said between manufacturers), the AC130 has a lower Fs, and a higher Qts. That tells me it will react better in the door than either of the Seas options. How much better? It might be minute, or not at all. Numbers are numbers, and don't tell the whole story. The distortion at 1.8k will be inaudible with either the F1, or the MK2, in a moving, or even idling vehicle, no matter what's being played.

And the best part... it will match up to the LPG tweet. For the most part, it looks like it should be a great compromise between the Seas drivers.

If I was in the market for a 5 1/4" setup, then I'd sure give them a try. Of course, that means very little when it's your money, and not mine. ;) Either way, I say give them a try.

After many, many days, I'll finally stop waffling and say AC130/LPG combo FTW.

MiniVanMan
03-28-2007, 02:21 PM
oh gee... I so want this done. :)

I'm set on the L15. Done, I want very clear mids and omph in midbass. Done.

I'm thinking the Seas 27TFFNC/G (H1396) will fit in the apillars, if not the midrange location.

Thought about adding that Aurasound NT1-204-8D as a super tweeter above 12000 in the apillar and the 27tff in the midrange. Is that the right thing to do and go passive inline on that one driver? Or is that more trouble than it's worth?

cross over 80hz sub.

****IT, ****IT, ****IT, ****IT!!!!!!! :D

After just touting the AC130, back to the original plan.

If you can get the Seas Neo in the a-pillar, then by all means go for it. That's still the best option. If you want to use both, regardless, then yes, the Aura tweet could help if you are willing to do the extra work. You'd most likely want to run them off head unit power, and run a capacitor in series with them, throw in an L-pad to be safe, and you should be okay.

Cap value will be tough to say. I'm thinking somewhere between 10 and 13k for the crossover point. 13k will probably exhibit a bit more neutrality, and 10k will probably be very forward. So, with that I'd probably say 12-13k. As it so happens Parts Express has the perfect cap.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-412

Creating a 6 db slope, it should yield just enough top end sparkle. If the Seas Neos are EXTREMELY off axis, then lower the crossover point, and use a 1.8 uF cap.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-914&DID=7

Throw this little do-hickey in there to properly adjust the volume of the tweet, and you should be good.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-251

Of course, this can all be done after you do your initial install and see if it's even needed.

MiniVanMan
03-28-2007, 02:28 PM
Want to guess how many drivers I have sitting in my garage, and friends garage? :D

I have just as much problem picking a setup for myself, as I'm having with yours so I just accumulate stuff when it goes on sale, just in case, I can find a use for it.

My wife is going to get the Dayton ND20 tweet in her car as part of a 3 way setup. So, I do like the tweeter, even though you're looking at the Aura, which is the same thing almost.

Jlace
03-28-2007, 03:21 PM
Well, I'm back to being confused. LOL

1. Ac130/lgp
2. L15/27t

The safer bet #2?

Jlace
03-28-2007, 03:25 PM
Really, let approach this from another angle. Which 5.25 will sound best in a door and that should dictate the tweet.

Jlace
03-28-2007, 03:50 PM
wait! that ac130 is 73mm. I can only go 2 5/8 max so the ac 130 won't fit. The L15 should at 63mm.

Jlace
03-28-2007, 04:30 PM
Well hell :)

tried to order at Madsion, L15 out of stock.
Then he asked what I was doing. Then he said:

Peerless 850517
Peerless 830512
Vifa A13wg0904

He also said something about the L15 not being so good free air.

On tweets he said the 27ttf without me saying I was looking at it.

Over them all he said Peerless 850517 would be his choice and it fits my door.
His second choice was the Vifa.

Jlace
03-28-2007, 04:43 PM
This one
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=2724932.18875&pid=825

More detail here
http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=850517&Category_Code=P1CSCCSX

MiniVanMan
03-28-2007, 09:04 PM
Half the Vas, and half the Xmax of any of the other drivers we've looked at.

Frankly, nothing works well free air. That's why we try to seal doors as best as possible. People use egg crate foam behind the speaker to absorb backwaves, and all other sorts of voodoo that either help or don't.

We (as in car audio) look for drivers with high Qts numbers as a sort of baseline for how well the driver will react with large volumes of air, or free air. This doesn't always tell the best story, and can be sort of voodoo as well. The car door does absolutely no favors to any driver. The smaller the driver though, the harder to get decent midbass performance because of the large volume of air. With even a sealed door it is quite large. So, in essence the guy at Madisound is correct. However, suggesting a driver with half the Xmax, and half the Vas doesn't bode well either. It's not a driver that will provide a decent amount of midbass. It may act very controlled within it's usable bandwidth, but there's nothing it can do that the L15 can't do as well. What we're hoping for here is a bit more performance.

The L15 has a higher Qts, and almost double the Xmax, and Vas. You won't get everything the L15 has to offer, but you can get more out of it.

I can throw even more drivers into the equation. Vifa PL14 is a great driver. Detailed, with a very smooth, velvety sound to it. Great upper end extenstion, with good off axis performance. Should provide some decent midbass as well. Low Fs, decent Vas, and Xmax, but lower Qts have made me skip over this driver. Doesn't mean it won't do well, and it could possibly do spectacular, but it's a punt.

Speaking of punting, just about anything will be a punt. There is no way to tell how any driver will react once installed in a car door.

We're trying to work within the parameters of the vehicle without carving out door frames, a-pillars, and any other panels that may get in the way. It's a challenge, and frankly why I'm addicted to this hobby over home audio.

The Seas Neo is a great tweeter. So is the MDT12. The LPG is spectacular at what it does. The Dayton ND20 is a superb little performer for the money. The L15RLY is a great driver. So is the CA15, and the Vifa PL14. I'm willing to bet the AC130 will be nice as well. Peerless makes some great drivers, but nothing I'm willing to stamp for this particular application. If I had to pick a Peerless I'd pick this one.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3904266.20886&pid=1953

Nothing is going to sound as good in the car as it would in a properly built enclosure for any given driver, including anything "designed" for car audio. So, when the guy at Madisound says the L15 doesn't react well free-air, I hope he's not comparing apples to oranges. He may be correct, but there's a difference between, "this will explode if you try this free air", and "you won't get full potential out of this driver".

I can make an argument for this driver as well.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=8248629.18658&pid=1074

Let's be realistic about what we're trying to accomplish here. We're trying to take a well engineered piece of equipment, and put it in one of the most harsh environments we can dish out, and expect it to perform to a high standard. Same thing as asking a Porsche 911 to do 140 mph on a road riddled with speed bumps and potholes. Something's gotta give.

It's hard to stand back and say this will work and this won't when I know for a fact that unless I'm there with a stockpile of drivers next to you to test, anything will be a punt. I really enjoy spending other people's money, but I have some integrity as to feeling really, really bad if something doesn't work out. So to that end, I try my best to find the best fit for a given application. Madisound is doing the same thing. They have a lot more to lose though if you're an unsatisfied customer. So, I think they're playing it a bit more safe when they make recommendations. Unrealistic expectations can kill a relationship, and Madisound definitely doesn't want to do that.

In the end, it comes down to effort. The more you put into treating the doors, and giving the drivers the most controlled environment possible the better the performance. 80% install, 20% equipment. This is why Dynamat, and Ensolite exist. This is why DIYers like myself go to great lengths trying things like shoving modeling clay all around a baffle, and using egg crate foam behind a speaker, and anything else we may think will help. Some of it's voodoo, some of it actually helps.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 06:55 AM
Well said. My sense is that when I said car, he went to car speakers without considering other drivers. I have no problem thinking out of the box and working a little harder if I get 20% more gain. I could have gone passive, instead I went active. This is a custom build and not all things that are custom "fit" without modifications or just the easy standards.

My home theater speakers are Fluance. A little known company that makes exception speakers for budget prices. I have no issue spending money based on reviews from people in the know. You can't audition Fluance, it's internet only. I have no problem spending less and getting more.

I would also hate to think I've wasted your time and my time and end up going down to the local earshack audio and throwing some kickers in it. While the man at Madisound was well meaning, my sense was he was not a DYI guy. Not to say that Peerless he suggested bad just that there may be other options.

My other car had Focal Poly 2 way in the kicks. While is sounded pretty good. It was basically decent highs and midrange only. The goal of this build is to exceed that, add at least "some" midbass and raise that front stage. I realize I won't be able to get 80hz in the front stage but anything will be better than what I had.

I do get frustated at times with all this but in the end I think we'll come up with a solution. The Seas will in next week he said and right now those are my leading choices.

Build cost tally will be rather high. $350.00 just to install. I want to make sure my drivers live up to that so it's worth the wait and look at more just to be sure and to hedge my bet. We've come this far, what a few more days to get it right?

Jlace
03-29-2007, 07:09 AM
Can we also talk about dampening while were at it?

http://www.raamaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

Jlace
03-29-2007, 07:28 AM
Isn't this what we're talking about?

"FYI, I can think of one metal cone that can be used with a first order crossover. If you use the SEAS L15RLY/P and a notch filter around 7.8Khz, you're OK to use a first order crossover. Of course, given the natural rolloff at 2Khz, the effective slope is more than 6db. That seems to bother some folks for some reason. Some of their other metal cones in that series can be treated similarly. "

Jlace
03-29-2007, 09:07 AM
This is very interesting. I'm in Dallas and not unusual for summer to be over a 100degree here for weeks at a time. My car is dark gray with black interior.

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/heat/

Jlace
03-29-2007, 09:17 AM
Just measured my front doors, look like 24 sq. feet will be plenty for both.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 10:26 AM
LOL, his final conclusion.

If you really need to do this in the absolutely least expensive way and are not convinced or concerned by the demonstrated inferiority of asphalt based sound deadeners, go to Home Depot or Lowes and get a roll or two of Peel & Seal. This is the least expensive option and you won't have to worry about shipping costs. I can see no difference in Peel & Seal and the asphalt based aluminum skinned products in this review.

MiniVanMan
03-29-2007, 01:11 PM
Isn't this what we're talking about?

"FYI, I can think of one metal cone that can be used with a first order crossover. If you use the SEAS L15RLY/P and a notch filter around 7.8Khz, you're OK to use a first order crossover. Of course, given the natural rolloff at 2Khz, the effective slope is more than 6db. That seems to bother some folks for some reason. Some of their other metal cones in that series can be treated similarly. "

Good find, and it is a testament to the quality of the L15. The same can be true of the CA15. The roll off happens higher (closer to 3k) and has no breakup. The driver can roll of naturally with no crossover work. The CA18 works in the same way, and that's why it's such an easy driver to work with. The L15 is designed to be as simple as an aluminum cone driver can be, but with it comes compromises, and that compromise is top end extension. As you can see, we're having a hell of time finding the right tweeter for this baby. I can think of a lot of tweeters than will mate up with it frequencywise, but only the Seas Neo in any kind of budget range. All others come in the $100+ range per tweeter.

You might want to call Rick, of Raammat. He is a fantastic guy, and extremely knowledgeable. In fact, though I'm not sure anymore, he gives discounts to DIYMobileAudio members. He may do that on all sites, though. His product is top notch, as well as his customer service.

You being in Dallas, you are prone to issues with heat. Peal and Seal will perform better in a Dallas summer than it does in a Chicago winter, but it can still fail in extreme heat. Peal and Seal is fine for a lot of situations, but I mostly recommend it only in a pinch. I used some Peal and Seal in my wife's vehicle and it failed. The SecondSkin I had in there is still going strong, though.

Oh, and don't forget the ensolite. That stuff rocks when implemented correctly.

Don't be afraid to call Rick. He's a very nice guy, and he likes to make time for his customers. If you would rather PM him, he can be found on www.diymobileaudio.com (where I spend most of my time). He's under the name Raamaudio. He's not a bad guy to bounce ideas off of either. He's got a ton of install experience.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 01:12 PM
Any thoughts on Image Dynamics CX52 and cx 54 or are we already better than that with L15's?

Jlace
03-29-2007, 01:22 PM
Let's just go with the L15 and neo tweet then. We haven't found anything better as a combo that will fit. CA18 won't so it's really down to two CA15 and L15.

Sure I could spend more but doubt I would hear more.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 01:33 PM
Here's what I think you have said all along.

L15, better SQ overall than Ca15 but needs the slope. That's why I bought the Memphis.

Nothing wrong with that neo tweet, some people seem to rave about it even. It fits the apillar, the spec fits the L15's and it's in budget. Seems like a plan to me. :)

Jlace
03-29-2007, 01:50 PM
I found this:

Got my these Seas Aluminum tweets about a week ago. They do sort of fit into the LPG angle mount, but will need at grind out the back a bit.

As for listening, i am blown away at the sound. I was previously running LPG 26NA's and CA18's. I had the new tweets with the CA18's for a while, then switched to Reference RS180's.

My LPG's were a little hissy with S sounds and i had to EQ 6-8k down quite a bit, and even then it was always slightly edgy. And down near 3k, the snare drum was also very edgy...i managed to tame that with a higher crossover.

Anyways, on to the Seas. It is very smooth and natural but detailed as well. The upper end has none of the edginess or S's of the LPG. Very balanced. It also goes down to 2k nicely. Pointing directly inwards on the A-pillar i've yet to add any EQ, whereas the LPG had 2 bands trrying to even it out. I'm very happy and it's quite an improvement on the LPG if you ask me. Mainly for, better balanced, and the lower crossover. IT doesn't give up anything in detail either.

MiniVanMan
03-29-2007, 01:55 PM
L15, better SQ overall than Ca15 but needs the slope.



Not better, just different. The L15 is much more dynamic, the CA15 is much more laid back and neutral. Both are very clear and distortion free. However, coming from Focal, you'd have a very hard adjustment going to the CA drivers. To that end the L15 is a better solution.

Nothing wrong with Image Dynamics. I don't know if they're worth the extra money over the L15.

If those Seas Neos fit in the a-pillars, then you'll have no problems, and will have a phenomenal setup. Definitely keep me updated on the install, and I hope you're happy with it.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 01:58 PM
Now I'm confused! I found this...

Just so there's no confusion:

Large format tweeters:

27TBFC/G (H1212) Alum/Mag
27TDFC (H1189) Textile (no /G designation)

Small format:

27TAFNC/D (H1397) Alum (Madisound mistakenly has it as AFNC/G)
27TFFNC/G (H1396) Textile

Same H1397 tweeter:
http://www.seas.no/Prestige%20Diskan...TAFNCH1397.pdf
or
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind....8155&pid=2138

All of them:
http://www.seas.no/Prestige_line%20line%20up.htm

Small format comments from Zaph:

Seas 27TAFNC/D ($29) - Smooth response with a mild Qts bump at the bottom. Multi-chamber neo magnet allows lower Fs than many other neo tweeters. Good but not great HD, but should have no problem crossing over at 2kHz.

The Vifa D26NC55 deserves mention as the best small flange neo tweeter I've ever tested, with performance that rivals the bigger and more expensive tweeters. Very low distortion, provided it's not crossed too low. If you need a very small tweeter, look no further. The Vifa XT25SC50 and Seas 27TAFNC/D, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, tie for second place in the small flange neo tweeter class.

Large format comments:

Seas 27TBFC/G ($30) - Very smooth response, down a few dB at 20kHz. Very low distortion of all types, particularly the near non-existant high order harmonics. No notable energy storage problems. Ultrasonic breakup node at 26.5Khz. The hexagrid cover is ugly.

Seas 27TDFC ($29) - Exactly the same as the TBFCG, but with a fabric dome. Slightly rising top end response but overall very smooth. No ugly hexagrid. Similar to the old 27TFFC, but with a polymer surround and slightly cleaner performance.

The Seas 27TBFC/G is the winner of this group, and has been one of my long time favorites and it's easy to see why. Completely smooth and clear, and set to erase the mindset that metal dome tweeters sound like doorbells. The 27TDFC is close behind, with an ever-so-slightly more aggressive and bright sound that some prefer and some don't.
__________________

Jlace
03-29-2007, 02:24 PM
THIS is the one I want right?

http://www.seas.no/Prestige%20Diskanter%20PDF/27TAFNCH1397.pdf

MiniVanMan
03-29-2007, 02:41 PM
THIS is the one I want right?

http://www.seas.no/Prestige%20Diskanter%20PDF/27TAFNCH1397.pdf

Correct.

Jlace
03-29-2007, 06:19 PM
Thanks so much for your time here. I know it's been painful and I do appreciate you sticking with me. Something tells me I am going to be blown away with the new sound. It's a beautiful BMW inside and out and this will only help push it forward.

My plan is go get the drivers in, that may take next week all week. Then schedule the installer the following week. He said to give him a days notice and leave it with him for two days min. That means somewhere about April 12th it should be done.

Of course I'll write back and let you know what I think! It's the least I can do.

Thanks again.
Joe