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View Full Version : Silver Flute/Peerless, Home Audio Build



Thieroff
03-07-2007, 05:34 PM
Hey all, I'm just getting prepped for a build here

I will be utilizing a pair of Silver Flute W20RC38-4's and a pair of Peerless 811582's


Passives will be using Dayton Poly caps, Madisound 18 and 19g air core inductors, and some heavy Dale/Vishay resistors.

The Silver Flutes will be housed in a 15 liter birch enclosure, tuned to 50hz, flush mounted. The tweeters will be flush mounted also.


Crossovers consist of 2nd order Linkwitz Riley on the LPF side, and a 4th order Linkwitz Riley on the HPF side. Both at 2500 hz.


The woofer has an L-pad, and the tweeter has impedance equalization (Zobel)


Paired next to a Dayton DA175 7" aluminum cone midrange
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/8.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/7.jpg



Happy Family

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/6.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/2.jpg


Midrange closeups
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/5.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/4.jpg



Predicted Response

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/SFPeerlessFinal.jpg





Just figured I'd share this with you folks



Audio is less of a hobby and more of a passion for some of us.


Also I will gladly design you xovers or boxes, for home audio and automobile use.



CT

tEh koRnDog
03-07-2007, 05:35 PM
sweet, im waiting to get through my surgery recovery so i can begin mine....keep us updated!

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 05:37 PM
sweet, im waiting to get through my surgery recovery so i can begin mine....keep us updated!

Absolutely,

This will be a complete build log


Hope you get well soon bro

CT

pwnt by pat
03-07-2007, 05:37 PM
Those things look beautiful. Lets get this going.

tEh koRnDog
03-07-2007, 05:38 PM
Absolutely,

This will be a complete build log


Hope you get well soon bro

CT

thanks man

testicular cancer FTL

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 05:40 PM
Those things look beautiful. Lets get this going.

Thanks Pat


This is going to be a fun endeavor



CT

joetama
03-07-2007, 05:53 PM
Should have put this thing in the HT section...

BUT anyway, good start.

Looking forward to telling you my opinion of them!

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 05:58 PM
Should have put this thing in the HT section...

BUT anyway, good start.

Looking forward to telling you my opinion of them!



Haha, I half heartedly want to hear your opinion. I know that you will be honest, which is a great thing when it benefits me.

Haha, I guess there is a downside though. If you don't like them.


Although a lot of time, effort and care has gone into the planning/design of these. One hopes that you will be pleasantly suprised.



CT

joetama
03-07-2007, 06:19 PM
Haha, I half heartedly want to hear your opinion. I know that you will be honest, which is a great thing when it benefits me.

Haha, I guess there is a downside though. If you don't like them.


Although a lot of time, effort and care has gone into the planning/design of these. One hopes that you will be pleasantly suprised.



CT

Well the thing is you can probably fix anything that I find wrong. Which will make it a better loudspeaker system. Don't feel bad if I find something in them I don't like. I have never heard a speaker system that I loved 100%. Even the 802D systems I have heard have little things that annoy me.

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 09:38 PM
Well the thing is you can probably fix anything that I find wrong. Which will make it a better loudspeaker system. Don't feel bad if I find something in them I don't like. I have never heard a speaker system that I loved 100%. Even the 802D systems I have heard have little things that annoy me.

Absolutely man




CT

mattmcss
03-07-2007, 09:53 PM
can't wait to see how these cabinets get finished off.

Oh, and I bet they'll sound good with those mids too man.

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 09:58 PM
Squeak, thanks for bumping my thread over to the home audio section, it was a genuine mistake.

Thieroff
03-07-2007, 09:59 PM
can't wait to see how these cabinets get finished off.

Oh, and I bet they'll sound good with those mids too man.

Thanks Matt


I'll definately put my best into this set



CT

Beat_Dominator
03-08-2007, 12:24 AM
:woot: I can now live my dreams through you!

I have too many projects so I opted out of building my own speakers.....though I plan to do it for my PC when I get a bigger place.

Good luck, and keep us updated :thumbsup:

Thieroff
03-08-2007, 04:36 PM
:woot: I can now live my dreams through you!

I have too many projects so I opted out of building my own speakers.....though I plan to do it for my PC when I get a bigger place.

Good luck, and keep us updated :thumbsup:



Most definately


Thanks for your interest in this thread.


CT

joetama
03-08-2007, 05:26 PM
Waiting to see more!

Thieroff
03-08-2007, 05:32 PM
Haha, me too, I'm going to purchase birch tonite.


I should have my cuts done saturday night, I may possibly start on the xovers in the next day or so.

So I will definately have more pics ASAP


CT

thadman
03-08-2007, 08:25 PM
What behooved you to purchase the drivers you did?

Why an 8 paired to a 25mm dome tweeter?

I have a hard time believing you'll have a homogeneous transition between the tweeter and the midrange, you'd be exploiting each's weakness. The Peerless is going to struggle greatly below 3khz im guessing, and with the Seas 27TBFCG (phenomenal performer that performs equally as incredible as its MUCH more expensive brother) being a few dollars more why did you choose it?

The silver flute specifically arent known to be very renowned performers...why not a smaller driver or a better engineered driver? I havent read any reviews on the specific driver you're using, but I have read some reviews on its smaller brother, the W14 (~5.5). It was specifically recommended to be used <1800hz as its top end response wasnt quite so favorable...with that being said I believe that specific 8 is going to be plagued by odd-order harmonics (the offensive kind). I would do some free-air testing or find some frequency response tests...if you want good reproduction it is going to have to be clean past ~8000hz as the 3rd harmonic of this frequency is going to excite where you plan on crossing.

Why not the Dayton RS225 (if you REQUIRE a low-cost 8, although most drivers of this diameter are incredibly undesirable for the upper midrange and lower treble) and RS28A/Seas 27TBFCG?

thadman
03-08-2007, 08:36 PM
I found some data sheets on that Silver Flute and it appears to have a NASTY breakup occuring between 4-5khz and manifests itself sharply from 2khz upward. If you DO intend on using this driver, I would highly recommend on using an extremely high order filter around 1000hz maybe 1100hz. Otherwise you're going to have a very offensive passband (lots of odd order harmonics) in the area where the human ear is most sensitive...big no no.

Thieroff
03-08-2007, 09:26 PM
What behooved you to purchase the drivers you did?

Why an 8 paired to a 25mm dome tweeter?

I have a hard time believing you'll have a homogeneous transition between the tweeter and the midrange, you'd be exploiting each's weakness. The Peerless is going to struggle greatly below 3khz im guessing, and with the Seas 27TBFCG (phenomenal performer that performs equally as incredible as its MUCH more expensive brother) being a few dollars more why did you choose it?

The silver flute specifically arent known to be very renowned performers...why not a smaller driver or a better engineered driver? I havent read any reviews on the specific driver you're using, but I have read some reviews on its smaller brother, the W14 (~5.5). It was specifically recommended to be used <1800hz as its top end response wasnt quite so favorable...with that being said I believe that specific 8 is going to be plagued by odd-order harmonics (the offensive kind). I would do some free-air testing or find some frequency response tests...if you want good reproduction it is going to have to be clean past ~8000hz as the 3rd harmonic of this frequency is going to excite where you plan on crossing.

Why not the Dayton RS225 (if you REQUIRE a low-cost 8, although most drivers of this diameter are incredibly undesirable for the upper midrange and lower treble) and RS28A/Seas 27TBFCG?


I found some data sheets on that Silver Flute and it appears to have a NASTY breakup occuring between 4-5khz and manifests itself sharply from 2khz upward. If you DO intend on using this driver, I would highly recommend on using an extremely high order filter around 1000hz maybe 1100hz. Otherwise you're going to have a very offensive passband (lots of odd order harmonics) in the area where the human ear is most sensitive...big no no.


Well, this set is being designed as a prototype, and it is really just a low cost experiment.

I believe the Peerless should fare just fine around 2.5khz, on a 4th order slope. These tweeters were actually given to me a while back by another forum member and I wanted to put them to use. They have a relatively low Fs (1050hz) and one would assume that they will work just fine.


Why an 8" midrange?

The FR graphs genuinely don't look that bad, and like I said this is designed to be a low cost setup. With a 2nd order network I believe -12db at 5khz will be sufficient enough.


Do I currently know what it is going to sound like?
No, all I can go on is what information the graphs have given me, and my fiddling with crossover software.

Have I had any past experience with Silver Flute products?
No, although in my free air experiences with this driver it does not come out harsh, nor muddy. It is a laid back, natural sound driver.


Do I still plan on building this set?

Absolutely.



Thadman, thank you for your input on my build project. I will hold all of your information into consideration once enclosure testing goes underway.




CT

Thieroff
03-08-2007, 09:33 PM
New pics



Stain
Polyurethane
Foam Brushes
Right angle clamps
Birch Ply
Sandpaper/sanding blocks

Plus the drivers


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00031.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00030.jpg


CT

Beat_Dominator
03-09-2007, 01:08 AM
Learn by expiramentation :thumbsup:

joetama
03-09-2007, 03:27 PM
Learn by expiramentation :thumpsup:

I think he should be fine. This is a very good learning project. I give him the thumbs up!

thadman
03-09-2007, 05:50 PM
You are misguided if you believe your 8 is going to cross that high without *****ing...a LOT of it mind you lol:laugh:

You can get an idea about how a driver is going to perform distortion wise by observing its frequency response. At 3-5khz we have a large peak, we will have high levels of 2nd order harmonic distortion between 1500 and 2500hz. We will also have high levels of (offensive) 3rd order harmonic distortion between 1000 and 1667hz as the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are multiples of the original peak. See my point? Crossing that high is a really bad idea.

Thieroff
03-09-2007, 07:34 PM
I think he should be fine. This is a very good learning project. I give him the thumbs up!

Word up, thanks man


You are misguided if you believe your 8 is going to cross that high without *****ing...a LOT of it mind you lol:laugh:

You can get an idea about how a driver is going to perform distortion wise by observing its frequency response. At 3-5khz we have a large peak, we will have high levels of 2nd order harmonic distortion between 1500 and 2500hz. We will also have high levels of (offensive) 3rd order harmonic distortion between 1000 and 1667hz as the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are multiples of the original peak. See my point? Crossing that high is a really bad idea.

Well, currently I have the design plans all together, and the parts on hand.

I'm going to give it a shot.

If all else fails it's back to square one. I believe experimentation will breed knowledge.

I'm not disregarding your thoughts in any way shape or form, just so you know.

I'm one of those guys who has to hit his head off of a brick wall a thousand times to figure out that's not the way to do things.

:laugh:


CT

thylantyr
03-09-2007, 09:30 PM
W20RC38 - Wool-filled Paper Cone Woofer
http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html

If the woofer you have is untreated paper cone, then read below.

Here's a tip. Some of the best sounding midranges are paper treated cones.
Non treated paper they can have sonic issues at the higher frequencies.

You can use the lacquer cone treatment mod on that woofer to tame the higher
frequency nasties, it should sound pretty sweet.

Get a $5 spray can of lacquer, clear type. Example;
http://www.builderdepot.com/RUSTOLEUM_BM/prodimg/6021257.jpg

Get an empty soda can like so;
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/coke_can.gif

Get a 1" cheap paint brush like so;
http://www.impactdecor.com/acatalog/brush_syn_25mm.jpg

Cut the empty soda can in half.

Rinse and dry the can.

Spray some lacquer in the soda can.

Dip the paint brush in lacquer and apply a thin coat to the woofer cone, dust
cap, but not the surround.

Let dry. Repeat about 4 to 6 times to build up.

The spray can lacquer is ideal because it's not thick like the non-spray type,
this allows it to soak in the paper fiber. Lacquer coats meld with previous coats
to form a thick coat.

This will add mass the woofer, lower Fs, tame high frequency nasties, and you
loose a little bit of sensitivity. The paper is now protected against the environment and will last forever vs.
drying out and getting brittle over time. The SQ should improve.

Try this out.

Do two coats. Listen to the woofer full range, free air. Compare the sound to the unmodded woofer.
If you think there is progress, then do two - four more coats until you think it's good. The full range sound
test will tell alot, trust your ears.

Thieroff
03-09-2007, 10:56 PM
W20RC38 - Wool-filled Paper Cone Woofer
http://www.madisound.com/silverflute.html

If the woofer you have is untreated paper cone, then read below.

Here's a tip. Some of the best sounding midranges are paper treated cones.
Non treated paper they can have sonic issues at the higher frequencies.

You can use the lacquer cone treatment mod on that woofer to tame the higher
frequency nasties, it should sound pretty sweet.

Get a $5 spray can of lacquer, clear type. Example;
http://www.builderdepot.com/RUSTOLEUM_BM/prodimg/6021257.jpg

Get an empty soda can like so;
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/gifiles/coke_can.gif

Get a 1" cheap paint brush like so;
http://www.impactdecor.com/acatalog/brush_syn_25mm.jpg

Cut the empty soda can in half.

Rinse and dry the can.

Spray some lacquer in the soda can.

Dip the paint brush in lacquer and apply a thin coat to the woofer cone, dust
cap, but not the surround.

Let dry. Repeat about 4 to 6 times to build up.

The spray can lacquer is ideal because it's not thick like the non-spray type,
this allows it to soak in the paper fiber. Lacquer coats meld with previous coats
to form a thick coat.

This will add mass the woofer, lower Fs, tame high frequency nasties, and you
loose a little bit of sensitivity. The paper is now protected against the environment and will last forever vs.
drying out and getting brittle over time. The SQ should improve.

Try this out.

Do two coats. Listen to the woofer full range, free air. Compare the sound to the unmodded woofer.
If you think there is progress, then do two - four more coats until you think it's good. The full range sound
test will tell alot, trust your ears.

Thylantyr,


Thank you, the cone is actually made of wool on the particular driver I'm using.



That is a very good read though



CT

thylantyr
03-10-2007, 12:42 AM
made of wool

If it absorbs liquid, the mod still works. I wouldn't do this mod on kevlar,
poly, metal, and other exotic cones. Ever see those fabric dome tweeters
with sometimes sticky black goo on them? It's a cone treatment {hehe}.

thadman
03-10-2007, 12:55 PM
Im not sure if I would recommend strengthening the cone for such a high crossover. Point being that making the cone more rigid would result in a higher amplitude, but more concentrated peak vs a lower amplitude, wider peak. The result of this would probably be less average distortion over the drivers passband, but one horrendously offensive distortion peak.

The reason paper cones may subjectively sound good is because they have a warm sound signature, which comes as a result of high levels of distortion that resemble low amplitude *plateaus* rather than high amplitude peaks. This creates a more homogeneous distortion signature, rather than the abrupt, high amplitude distortion peaks associated with metal cone drivers. In most cases associated with stiff coned drivers (often with metal cone drivers), you cross before the high amplitude peak presents itself in the form of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics (ex. you would cross ~1400hz with a Seas W18EX). In your given situation, you are not going to be crossing low so I would advise against it.

This is just my recommendation and remember to take it with a grain of salt because ive never tested the driver nor the driver with cone treatment. Although you could test the driver to see what works best, it would be counter productive because you could buy a better driver instead of purchasing an additional driver and the cone treatment materials.

thylantyr
03-10-2007, 06:31 PM
Have faith.

The best midranges I've heard come from a French vendor who uses
paper treated cones. These drivers beat Focal, Seas, etc., in my auditions.
My NSB's with cone treatments sound so much better than without. Treating
cones is not a new art.

thadman
03-11-2007, 12:42 PM
Where are you crossing your NSBs? If you treat the cones they might sound better in a more narrow passband as a result of being more pistonic, but sometimes the peak is so high up in frequency that harmonics of that peak wont affect the passband you're listening to.

How small are those NSBs? 4"s? With cone treatment the peak may well be hovering around 10khz which would put the harmonic of that peak out of your passband for the driver making you oblivious to the negative effects. The thread starter does not have this opportunity, his peak is going to show up as distortion as early as 1khz. Treating the cone will only make the peak larger, but not put it out of the passband.

thylantyr
03-11-2007, 04:39 PM
Where are you crossing your NSBs?

To verify what the cone treatment did, I ran the 4" NSB midwoofers full range,
maybe a high pass to filter out some bass.

NSB unmodded vs. NSB modded blind tests. Everyone who listened, picked the
modded version as sounding better unbeknownst to them it was modded, to
them it looked like the same driver from afar.

I also did another blind test with $129 midrange vs. NSB behind grill cloth
and the people listening were told that speaker A cost $129, based on the
sound you hear from speaker B, how much is it worth. Most people said at
least $100. The mod created the illusion that the modded driver sound competed well
with the high end driver at the higher frequency range at moderate SPL levels. I
didn't need the audience to tell me, I heard it, but I wanted verification, lol.

I also did phase plug mods and did some comparisons, phase plugs improve
the sound a we-bit, but it's only worth it if you are **** and will operate the
driver with no low pass.

Thieroff
03-11-2007, 06:52 PM
Well, I started building the passives today


I only got the LPF section of one done today, due to time constraints



Last night I got the enclosures all cut and glued

All cuts were mitered, and I should have pics of that a little later this evening.



Pics of passives.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00033.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00034.jpg




CT

Thieroff
03-11-2007, 08:18 PM
Pics of Cuts

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_010.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_009.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_008.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_007.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_006.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_005.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_004.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_003.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/chriss_speakers_002.jpg

dinty01
03-11-2007, 09:01 PM
nice build, looking forward to some more pics & your conclusions on how it sounds, keep up the good work :D

Thieroff
03-11-2007, 09:42 PM
Dinty,



Thanks man

Pics will be available as progress permits.



CT

Thieroff
04-16-2007, 06:55 PM
I haven't updated here in awhile, but I've gotten a decent amount of work done.

The paint still needs finished up and everything, I got a process I'm going to do.

We'll let the pics speak.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00136.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00134.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00133.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00140.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00139.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00169.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00170.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/Thieroff/DSC00186-1.jpg

bigbangtheory
04-17-2007, 02:32 AM
Looks **** so far! Good luck on the rest of the build.

JimJ
04-17-2007, 03:53 AM
I'd still be happy to give my thoughts, but yikes...my amps aren't going to like those resistors at all.

pwnt by pat
04-17-2007, 07:58 AM
Why's that?

JimJ
04-17-2007, 12:38 PM
Because my 8 watts per channel is going to go into heating those beasties up, and not powering the speakers :)

joetama
04-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Because my 8 watts per channel is going to go into heating those beasties up, and not powering the speakers :)

Those resistors are a bit over kill...

8 W into resistor... 8 mW out... :laugh:

ballstothewall
04-17-2007, 01:45 PM
Because my 8 watts per channel is going to go into heating those beasties up, and not powering the speakers :)

'Tis what you get for running tubes... :blackeye:

JimJ
04-17-2007, 01:47 PM
'Tis what I get for running the tubes I am :)

Tubes can run full size Maggies, you just need a lot of 'em :D

Thieroff
04-17-2007, 05:26 PM
Those resistors are a bit over kill...

8 W into resistor... 8 mW out... :laugh:

I did go a little crazy on the resistors.


I may have a look into it and switch to smaller resistors.


CT

joetama
04-17-2007, 05:56 PM
Usually 10-15 Watt resistors will do the trick... ;)

Thieroff
04-17-2007, 06:16 PM
Usually 10-15 Watt resistors will do the trick... ;)

So will 100w resitors.

:laugh:


CT

joetama
04-17-2007, 08:37 PM
Yea.... YOu would never worry about the burning up...

ballstothewall
04-17-2007, 10:06 PM
'Tis what I get for running the tubes I am :)

Tubes can run full size Maggies, you just need a lot of 'em :D

Theres a guy in Manhattan running tubes on Maggies... I still need to go over there and hear them too. He is a diehard tube/2ch/vinyl guy.