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thylantyr
01-16-2007, 06:51 PM
Found this thread.
http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=330330

pic here;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/longdrive03/HPIM0594.jpg

Latest project for my friends office. 16 NSB's and 48 Apex Jr. tweeters per side. Mahogany plywood cabinets. I'm now going to start on his double 12" power subs.

The mechanical design is proper.

baseballer1100
01-16-2007, 09:32 PM
Nice.

Crown_amps
01-19-2007, 02:48 PM
Found this thread.
http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=330330

pic here;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/longdrive03/HPIM0594.jpg

Latest project for my friends office. 16 NSB's and 48 Apex Jr. tweeters per side. Mahogany plywood cabinets. I'm now going to start on his double 12" power subs.

The mechanical design is proper.

holy **** 96 tweets in total how big is that office

joetama
01-19-2007, 02:59 PM
holy **** 96 tweets in total how big is that office

Doesn't make sense to me.... ;)

Eugenics
01-19-2007, 03:04 PM
i have no reason to believe that bose does not make the best speakers period. If it is not a bose line array, i dont give a **** to be quite honest.

acold7dusta
01-19-2007, 03:11 PM
nice, whats the efficiency like on one of those?

baseballer1100
01-19-2007, 03:13 PM
I agree.

IamDeMan
01-19-2007, 03:13 PM
Got tweets?

ngsm13
01-19-2007, 03:13 PM
96 tweeters is just stupid.

Don't care how you try to excuse it.

Stupid.

nG

thylantyr
01-19-2007, 03:34 PM
holy **** 96 tweets in total how big is that office

Looks like ~6 foot tall line array. 6 foot is good for a room with 8 foot ceiling,
but 7 foot is nicer. Looks like > 8 foot ceiling.

nice, whats the efficiency like on one of those?
Line array sensitivity is a variable that you can control to some degree.
You can make it very high or lame. 16 NSB per tower at 8 ohm wiring is
about 98dB sensitivity. If you choose 2 ohm wiring, 104dB. The tweeters should
be able to accomodate the 98 - 104 range by doing proper wiring.
I have no idea on how he wired up his array.

96 tweeters is just stupid.
What is stupid is making a line array with less tweeters. When it comes to
line array, more is better. That's how you get low distortion and higher SPL,
and large sound stage if you design it as such. Narrow sound stage can be
made by using power tapering.

It's a low cost array, the tweeters used are the bare minimum requirements.
Spend more coin and get better tweeters to refine the sound. But it has potential
if the crossovers and amps are good.

T3mpest
01-19-2007, 10:30 PM
holy **** 96 tweets in total how big is that office

Looks like ~6 foot tall line array. 6 foot is good for a room with 8 foot ceiling,
but 7 foot is nicer. Looks like > 8 foot ceiling.

nice, whats the efficiency like on one of those?
Line array sensitivity is a variable that you can control to some degree.
You can make it very high or lame. 16 NSB per tower at 8 ohm wiring is
about 98dB sensitivity. If you choose 2 ohm wiring, 104dB. The tweeters should
be able to accomodate the 98 - 104 range by doing proper wiring.
I have no idea on how he wired up his array.

96 tweeters is just stupid.
What is stupid is making a line array with less tweeters. When it comes to
line array, more is better. That's how you get low distortion and higher SPL,
and large sound stage if you design it as such. Narrow sound stage can be
made by using power tapering.

It's a low cost array, the tweeters used are the bare minimum requirements.
Spend more coin and get better tweeters to refine the sound. But it has potential
if the crossovers and amps are good.


Ehh, I'd rather have less tweeters of a higher quality. At a certain point, your only going to lose so much distortion and gain so much clarity from a lack of mechanical excursion.

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 12:58 PM
Ehh, I'd rather have less tweeters of a higher quality. At a certain point, your only going to lose so much distortion and gain so much clarity from a lack of mechanical excursion.

I use to think that way before I experimented with line arrays. I use to
think that an array of cheap drivers = cheap sound.

This is only true at a certain higher SPL level when you reach the drivers
performance limit and produce higher distortion. Every cheap driver has potential
to sound good at lower SPL, it's when you turn up the volume that problems start
to manifest audibly. If the driver is a decent design, it will sound pretty good at
lower SPL.

Use headphones as an example. The drivers in headphones are small and low
in SPL, yet they sound amazing when placed next to your ear. They distort like
mad when you crank it. The sound is high end, but SPL lacks.

In a line array, you raise SPL by 'quantity' of drivers {mutual coupling] and/or
electrical gain by how you wire the array.

Lets say that budget array has 48 tweeters per tower. Tweeter distortion is
1/48 lower in an array a the same SPL level as the single tweeter.

Hypothetical;
Lets say those tweeters are 86dB sensitivity and they have good vertical dispersion. 48 of them can boost line array sensitivity up to 103dB by mutual
coupling. Lets say the tweeter is 8 ohms each. If you can wire up the array for
a 1 ohm load, the total sensitivity is 112dB sensitivity.

Apply 1 watt of power to the array to generate 112dB of treble. You have
48 tweeters, each tweeters gets 0.02 watts. Each tweeter hardly does any
work, distortion is low, SPL is high because of the line array 'effect'.

Imagine what happens when you use better tweeters. You can use
less tweeters but it won't be a real line array anymore, it's a hybrid speaker
that tries to look like a line array but ain't. It can sound great but it's not
a line array.

joetama
01-20-2007, 03:49 PM
Ehh, I'd rather have less tweeters of a higher quality. At a certain point, your only going to lose so much distortion and gain so much clarity from a lack of mechanical excursion.

If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!

Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Pop da Hatch
01-20-2007, 03:57 PM
What was the cost of the project?

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 04:40 PM
If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!
Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Do you need some links to study how line arrays work so it starts making sense?
.. because I can't dumb down my posts more than I already do so this topic makes
sense to you... Since day one you never understood or improved your knowledge
on this subject.

ngsm13
01-20-2007, 04:44 PM
I'd rather get the same sound, out of a smaller package.

Less is more.

More impressive as well.

nG

joetama
01-20-2007, 04:48 PM
I don't need you to "dumb" anything down anymore.... I wouldn't mind if you left and never came back...

You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums. Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 04:49 PM
What was the cost of the project?

NSB = nickname given to a Partsexpress 'buyout' Pioneer 4" full range midwoofer.
[sold out]

Many people were buying these up over a year ago for 49 cents each. I bought
a bunch when PE had a 'free shipping' weekend. Shipping cost ~$1 per driver
due to weight. lol ... They are great drivers with lacquer cone treatment mod
and they are excellent for line arrays. I made a budget array also using those drivers -> http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/

The project being discussed in this thread, the 'NSB/ApexJr line array';
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/

Probably cost;

32 NSB = ~ $16 + $32 shipping = $48 for midwoofers unless you got free shipping
or went to PE to pick them up yourself. In theory, as low as $16 for all the mids.

The Apex Jr. tweeters cost 85 cents to $1.00 each.
http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html

Lets assume you bought 100 tweeters: $85 plus shipping.

Total driver cost: Anywhere from $100 - $175 for drivers.

You need a crossover, building supplies, lots of labor, etc.

ngsm13
01-20-2007, 04:49 PM
I do wonder why he even comes to this site.

It's www.caraudio.com

:rolleyes:

nG

thadman
01-20-2007, 04:58 PM
If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!

Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Although I do agree that thylantyr has an excessively *enthusiastic* love for line arrays, he is not an idiot by any means. I cannot say the same for you, that is an amazingly ignorant statement by you my friend...and a terrible metaphor. Your ignorance of the subject is no excuse...just because it doesn't make sense to you or conform with your elitist disposition does NOT make it a bad concept. Sound isnt magic, its all physics.

If you knew how line arrays worked, maybe you would understand. The speakers all work in conjunction with each other and spread the load across multiple speakers to create 1 homogeneous wavefront.

For example, by going with 2 speakers the excursion requirements drop 50% and im sure you're aware that distortion is proportional to linear travel. The two drivers in conjunction probably have much less than 50% of the original distortion, because they will be much more linear in their paths (if you've looked at a BL curve before, you can see that motor strength behaves more exponentially than it does linearly(sp?))

In an optimal line array where you are using say 16 4-5" drivers per tower, the excursion requirements are alleviated to 6% of the original demand. (6%...the drivers are hardly moving)

lets use the RS125-4 as an example

Zaph tested this speaker to have a sensitivity of 82.65dB

-one of these speakers peaked at .5% distortion (2nd harmonic), although averaging .3% distortion @ 94dB 1/2 meter (88dB @ 1m, roughly ~4 watts)

-in a line array configuration you can achieve roughly 118-119dB+ with the same inaudible distortion levels. (6dB+ for the addition of the second tower, as im sure most of us these days listen to music in stereo)

If you havent already guessed, the end result of using these in a line array is almost limitless dynamics, unprecedented clarity, and very little floor/ceiling interaction.

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 04:58 PM
I'd rather get the same sound, out of a smaller package.

Less is more.

More impressive as well.

nG

Small line array is an oxymoron. :laugh:

non line array speaker vs. line array speaker will have a different sound.

You won't get line array 'sound' from a non line array speaker. You can get
a different sound from a the small speaker that is excellent.

If you want a killer 3 way loudspeaker with a single tweeter, midrange,
woofer per tower, then add external sub, I have a recipe for that and it will be
very impressive. I wouldn't be afraid to challenge the Wilson X2 speaker with it.

But, most people can't afford the drivers for that project, the drivers are esoteric.
You will be impressed by the sound vs. a good line array but it won't sound
the same as the line array.

But imagine now if you took those killer drivers and expanded the design into a
line array? You will hear something that you have never heard before because a
system like that doesn't exist in the world to audition.

skeptikal
01-20-2007, 05:04 PM
I do wonder why he even comes to this site.

It's www.caraudio.com

:rolleyes:

nG

look at the section of the forum we are in.....

:rolleyes:

tell goob to get rid of it and make it CARaudio.com

joetama
01-20-2007, 05:10 PM
That is an amazingly ignorant statement by you my friend...and a terrible metaphor.

If you knew how line arrays worked, maybe you would understand. The speakers all work in conjunction with each other and spread the load across multiple speakers to create 1 homogeneous wavefront.

For example, by going with 2 speakers the excursion requirements drop 50% and im sure you're aware that distortion is directly related to linear travel.

In an optimal line array where you are using say 16 4-5" drivers, the excursion requirements are alleviated to 6% of the original demand. (6%...the drivers are hardly moving)

lets use the RS125-4 as an example

Zaph tested this speaker to have a sensitivity of 82.65dB

-one of these speakers peaked at .5% distortion (2nd harmonic), although averaging .3% distortion @ 94dB 1/2 meter (88dB @ 1m, roughly ~4 watts)

-in a line array configuration you can achieve roughly 112-113dB+ with the same inaudible distortion levels.

If you havent already guessed, the result of using these in a line array result in almost limitless dynamics, unprecedented clarity, and very little floor/ceiling interaction.

Well basically if a driver sounds BAD, it doesn't matter how low the bloody distortion is it will always sound bad. Your excursion is halved yes and your distortion goes down yes but it still doesn't help if you use a junk driver.

I have nothing against a line array as an idea. I just have never heard one I liked. And, I especially don't like being preached to about something. Most people do not have the room size or money to implement a line array correctly. I am sure 90% of the people on here that are interested in this section and building a system do not have the resources needed. So, why preach about something that isn't going to work for most people?

Yes, they look cool, they do sound good to some people, but not practical here....

thadman
01-20-2007, 05:16 PM
Let me ask you, have you ever heard a properly implemented horn setup? If so, could you comment on what you liked/disliked about it (excluding its dispersion pattern)?

Beat_Dominator
01-20-2007, 05:17 PM
Can't we all be fwiends?? :blush:

BASSMEKANIK
01-20-2007, 05:18 PM
major overkill IMO...

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 05:21 PM
You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger.

Have you checked out your sig. A picture will all your gear and big
claims "King of the home audio section.... "..

You want to be the 'King' but you will have to wait until I die because
you won't even pass up my 23 years of audio and 30 years of electronics
experience until then.... lol

Your pro audio experience hasn't taught you well. If anyone who should
know how a line array works is *you*. But you have no idea how they
work and show no interest in understanding them even if I'm patient with
you posting details on how they work. Your mind is closed.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums.
I visit at least 10 audio related forums daily, this is one of them.
People argue on forums all the time, any topic. It's human nature to have
debates. Of course people argue with me, but I have supporting data to backup
my claims.

Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

Insulting the 'kids' who hang out on the caraudio.com , I wonder
what they have to say about you ? :laugh:

I was involved with car audio for 10 years so the car audio forums are still
interesting to me, but I'm doing home audio right now.

joetama
01-20-2007, 05:24 PM
Let me ask you, have you ever heard a properly implemented horn setup? If so, could you comment on what you liked/disliked about it (excluding its dispersion pattern)?

Yes I have heard horn setups... And horn setups are decent.

Horn setups... What do you want me to say??? Biggest thing that I don't like about horns is there is always hot spots in the sound. Meaning, there is always a point in the frequency spectrum where there is smearing. The great thing about horns is their coverage and sound stage. They are very open and if implemented correctly with correct phase compensation very clear (despite the added distortion from a Constant Directivity Horn).

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Well basically if a driver sounds BAD, it doesn't matter how low the bloody distortion is it will always sound bad.

Why do you assume the NSB midwoofer sounds bad? Once again you
are judging a product by the price tag. You assume a 49 cent buyout driver
is bad sounding. Don't assume.

Here's the skinny. Those drivers bandpassed sound very good. Add some
simple cone treatments and SQ rises. I've done these tests. I've done
auditions with people using $100 mids vs. 49 cent modded mid.

Price tag alone won't tell you how it sounds.

Aside from FR which can be tweaked, distortion rises with output. If distortion is low at low SPL, the sound is very good. The line array 'effect' will give you the higher SPL as each driver is barely doing any work. That's why you need a big array to make it so. Small arrays are not as sweet and sorta useless. A four NSB
array can't compete with a 16 - 20 NSB tower. To get those four drivers
to give you the same SPL at the big array, distortion is too high and it will
sound nasty, but you will also blow up the drivers.

Why assume that a $1 - $4 tweeter is bad sounding? The trick is to know
it's limitations and work with it. By choosing the 'qty', proper CTC spacing,
best wiring, you can optimize performance.

If you really want to push these systems to their full potential, use a digital
crossover. The popular one has delays, parametric EQ, etc., tweak the sound
with signal processing.

If you have pro audio experience, you should already know this.

I have nothing against a line array as an idea.

Why are your posts always anti-line array ?

I just have never heard one I liked.

Blame the manufacturer that made the array you didn't like. Look at the design
and see if they made fatal flaws. That's what I did. In the other thread I told
you how those commercial systems are flawed. You place too much faith in
store bought product and assume they engineered it well. It's not the case
with speakers. It's more BS marketing than quality product.

Most people do not have the room size or money to implement a line array correctly.

You don't have to be dissuade if theory tells you something. You can bend
the rules. I can listen to my line array from 3 feet or 100 feet, it works.
Up close is an interesting experience, it's pretty cool really. I place the
lazyboy chair and rotate the budget array so the drivers point at me *or*
I just kick back 12 feet away and enjoy it, both setups have a different effect,
it's all good. Like a girlfriend that does many feats :laugh:

I am sure 90% of the people on here that are interested in this section and building a system do not have the resources needed. So, why preach about something that isn't going to work for most people?

Who' preaching? I posted a link of a new DIY line array. I posted it because
it's a DIY speaker. The driver cost is $100 - $175. If I posted a link to
Zaph's new MTM using Seas drivers costing $600, why is that more acceptable? lol

joetama
01-20-2007, 05:41 PM
You know... I think the only reason you post on this forum is so you can make your e-go feel bigger.

Have you checked out your sig. A picture will all your gear and big
claims "King of the home audio section.... "..

You want to be the 'King' but you will have to wait until I die because
you won't even pass up my 23 years of audio and 30 years of electronics
experience until then.... lol

Your pro audio experience hasn't taught you well. If anyone who should
know how a line array works is *you*. But you have no idea how they
work and show no interest in understanding them even if I'm patient with
you posting details on how they work. Your mind is closed.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you on other forums.
I visit at least 10 audio related forums daily, this is one of them.
People argue on forums all the time, any topic. It's human nature to have
debates. Of course people argue with me, but I have supporting data to backup
my claims.

Little car audio kids dig your big loud line arrays....

Insulting the 'kids' who hang out on the caraudio.com , I wonder
what they have to say about you ? :laugh:

I was involved with car audio for 10 years so the car audio forums are still
interesting to me, but I'm doing home audio right now.

I put that "king of the home audio section" in as a joke with me and some other forum members. And I also put my equipment list in my sig because I get so many PM's and IM's asking what are your speakers you use, what is this, what is that. It saves me time, because I don't live on the Internet like some people do.

Oh and the reason in Pro-Audio we use Line Arrays (Curvilinear) is for coverage. It gives you the capability to cover a large area evenly by coupling the drivers. You are building a Line source which is an essential column speaker. Pro-PA "Line Arrays" are NOTHING like what you guys build. They are VERY much different. There is not 90 some drivers just for high end.

Let's take a Meyer M3D system vs a Conventional MSL-6 for example...

First up the M3D. Lets say you do an array of 10 boxes a side. That would be 2 horns and 4 15" per box. So 20 horns and 40 15"

Now, lets look at a MSL-6 rig of 10 boxes per side. That would be 3 horns and 2 12" per box. So 30 horns and 20 12".

Now, there is not much difference in volume and system capability. There is not much difference in the drivers. The big difference is in the direct coverage. With a line array system you can cover almost every seat in the house equally, because of the ability to control each box in the array.

Oh, and I don't have much of a problem with most of the people on this forum. I just don't like some....

thadman
01-20-2007, 05:45 PM
Well basically if a driver sounds BAD, it doesn't matter how low the bloody distortion is it will always sound bad. Your excursion is halved yes and your distortion goes down yes but it still doesn't help if you use a junk driver.

You simply cannot dismiss a driver because it sounds bad in a certain alignment, compression drivers, a subwoofer with a >.8 Qts, and seas excel magnesium cone drivers for example. The CDs would sound absolutely atrocious and inconsistent with what you've heard from them if not mated with the appropriate waveguide. The Seas Excel drivers (albeit incredibly nice) are very tricky drivers to use and if crossed incorrectly, they can be extremely shrill and metallic sounding. The subwoofer with a >.8 Qts has potential to sound fantastic in an IB alignment, but if thrown in a ported box it will probably sound like poo. The main characteristics of a driver are dictated by the distortion it produces (some of which you find favorable), and in an alignment which exponentially lowers the distortion produced (such as a horn or line array) the driver sounds completely different and is no longer comparable. The driver may sound like poo in a certain alignment...but in another it can sound absolutely phenomenal if implemented correctly.

joetama
01-20-2007, 05:45 PM
<----- Doesn't care anymore.......

Thy and Thad should get together and build some fun Line Arrays.....

ngsm13
01-20-2007, 05:45 PM
*****.

nG

thadman
01-20-2007, 05:50 PM
lol...your ignorance is an extremely hard membrane to penetrate. All I was trying to get across to you was that specific drivers in different alignments are incomparable, which apparently is a difficult concept for you to grasp.

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 05:52 PM
Although I do agree that thylantyr has an excessively *enthusiastic* love for line arrays

Thadman and I have been in private discussion as he is on his own line array
quest. Originally, I just happened to response to his line array thread on this
forum. I encouraged him to investigate this issue more and he posted the same
types of questions that we talked about in private on many other forums, to
get more feedback. More data is good. Don't trust one source, not even me.
Always verify.

I've been tracking the forum responses to his 'hard questions' and the majority
of the people just reply with 'off the shelf' answers. Some replies are good
from people with real experience. I've also noticed that many people in the DIY
world are closed minded to audio. They are afraid to experiment. Some of these
problems raised have simple answers. It's not my fault that I can offer an answer
to a simple problem I see. The solution may be weird, but it may work. You can
digest what I say, ignore what I say, confirm what I say, but in the end you
should experiment to find out what works for you.

Example;
One issue was 'what tweeters to use' ? There are two dome candidates
that cost $4 each. On other forums, people will dissuade him from trying
those tweeters. I told him to buy four of each type, a $32 experiment.
Do a four stack line array SQ test and see which one of the two types of
tweeters works best. The issue was low crossover point vs. CTC spacing,
which has more audible gremlins ?

The common answer from others is 'don't use those tweeters'.
My solution is simple. Buy a few, try them out and pick the lesser of the evils. Find the performance
envelope of the driver before you design with it.

This to me is basic troubleshooting a problem 101 class.

joetama
01-20-2007, 05:52 PM
lol...your ignorance is an extremely hard membrane to penetrate. All I was trying to get across to you was that drivers in different alignments are incomparable, which apparently is a difficult concept for you to grasp.

Uhh no... A horn loaded speakers still sounds basically like the base speaker. A bunch of drivers together will still sound like the original driver. Try it sometime, I have....


BTW, every home audio line array guy is exactly the same..... You all get along very well knowing that your system is so much cheaper than mine and it sounds so much better..... ;) What you guys don't get is how ignorant you are because you don't listen to anything but your line array what you want to hear BS.

ngsm13
01-20-2007, 05:52 PM
I am grasping myself right about now.

:fyi:

nG

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:00 PM
Uhh no... A horn loaded speakers still sounds basically like the base speaker. A bunch of drivers together will still sound like the original driver. Try it sometime, I have....

...apparently you didnt read my post. You are putting words in my mouth. Here, I'll quote the essential part of my post so its easier for you to read.


You simply cannot dismiss a driver because it sounds bad in a certain alignment, compression drivers, a subwoofer with a >.8 Qts, and seas excel magnesium cone drivers for example. The CDs would sound absolutely atrocious and inconsistent with what you've heard from them if not mated with the appropriate waveguide. The Seas Excel drivers (albeit incredibly nice) are very tricky drivers to use and if crossed incorrectly, they can be extremely shrill and metallic sounding. The subwoofer with a >.8 Qts has potential to sound fantastic in an IB alignment, but if thrown in a ported box it will probably sound like poo. The main characteristics of a driver are dictated by the distortion it produces (some of which you find favorable), and in an alignment which exponentially lowers the distortion produced (such as a horn or line array) the driver sounds completely different and is no longer comparable. The driver may sound like poo in a certain alignment...but in another it can sound absolutely phenomenal if implemented correctly.

Hmmm... did I ever talk about hornloading a conventional loudspeaker? (The answer is no, if it hasnt already been conveyed to you) I used a compression driver without the aid of its waveguide as an example. It will sound inescapably different from the same driver in the waveguide in several ways. First the dispersion will be completely different and uncontrolled, second the waves will wrap around the driver and diffract all over the place, and third since the CD isnt mated to the waveguide it will have very low efficiency and much higher distortion.

The compression driver loses its main strengths when in the absence of the waveguide (high efficiency, low distortion, controlled dispersion).

In the same way that some specific drivers lose their main strength when in the absence of being used in large quantities (much lower distortion on the order of several magnitudes, extreme dynamics, the ability to extend octaves above and below the drivers regular passband, and linesource radiation pattern ie very little floor/ceiling interaction)

Beat_Dominator
01-20-2007, 06:05 PM
Can't we all be fwiends?? :blush:

I guess not :crying:

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:07 PM
...apparently you didnt read my post. You are putting words in my mouth. Here, I'll quote the essential part of my post so its easier for you to read.



Hmmm... did I ever talk about hornloading a conventional loudspeaker? (The answer is no, if it hasnt already been conveyed to you) I used a compression driver without the aid of its waveguide as an example. It will sound inescapably different from the same driver in the waveguide in several ways. First the dispersion will be completely different and uncontrolled, second the waves will wrap around the driver and diffract all over the place, and third since the CD isnt mated to the waveguide it will have very low efficiency and much higher distortion.

OK.... But if you start out with a driver that is low quality, you are never going to get it to sound as good as a high quality driver.... NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT IN A BOX OR WHAT YOU PUT INFRONT OF IT!

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:10 PM
I guess not :crying:

It's not like I haven't tried.... I just don't like being call ignorant for something that I know to be true.

I guess I should know that DIY and Line Arrays are better than everything else.... I must just be an idiot. Beat, you better sell your ML's and start over....

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:14 PM
Theres your ignorance speaking for you...

The only concept im trying to get across to you is this

a driver (albeit poor performing in a certain alignment) has the potentiality to sound fantastic if implemented correctly.

I've used several examples to reinforce the concept, and you've done nothing to disprove them only disagreeing with me.

you can apply that concept to the drivers used in line arrays.

Here is an example that might be a little easier for you to grasp, ants. On their own they are very poor predators in comparison to their prey, but when unified and hunting in large quantities they are able to overwhelm creatures several times their size.

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:19 PM
It's not like I haven't tried.... I just don't like being call ignorant for something that I know to be true.

I guess I should know that DIY and Line Arrays are better than everything else.... I must just be an idiot. Beat, you better sell your ML's and start over....

I havent stated in ANY of my posts that DIY and line arrays are solution to everything. You surely are not an idiot for disagreeing with that.

BUT
you are being extremely ignorant (ie you are an idiot because) by believing that certain drivers cant sound fantastic in certain alignments.

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:22 PM
Theres your ignorance speaking for you...

The only concept im trying to get across to you is this

a driver (albeit poor performing in a certain alignment) has the potentiality to sound fantastic if implemented correctly.

you can apply that concept to the drivers used in line arrays.

Here is an example that might be a little easier for you to grasp, ants. On their own they are very poor predators in comparison to their prey, but when unified and hunting in large quantities they are able to overwhelm creatures several times their size.

That example is worse than my turd one....

Ants really aren't hunters either, they seem to be more like gatherers. Ants don't kill anything, some might but lets talk about those cute little black ants. Just for the sake of argument let us say that you are right.

SO, now lets see if you can wrap your mind around this:
Lets say that the ants are poor ants compared to the colony next to them, like they are only born with 3 legs or something. Then, because of their weakness, putting a bunch of them together still isn't going to be as good as starting out with good ants. IE the colony next to them. ;)

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:30 PM
That wasnt the point I was trying to get across...and by using *gathering ants* as an example vs *hunting ants* totally destroys the metaphor. They have to be hunting ants for it to work, lets be specific and use the *Kiafu* of africa.

The kiafu can overwhelm animals larger then them by several orders of magnitude (ex. chickens in africa) by attacking in great numbers. Ive never seen reports of a single kiafu eating chickens. There have even been reports of Kiafu overwhelming humans and killing them, only for the fellow village people to discover the mutilated body much later.

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 06:31 PM
OK.... But if you start out with a driver that is low quality, you are never going to get it to sound as good as a high quality driver.... NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT IN A BOX OR WHAT YOU PUT INFRONT OF IT!

The driver quality isn't really part of this discussion. You can choose to use
low or high quality drivers for any project.

Lets talk about taking any driver and improving loudspeaker performance when you make an array.
That's what the issue is about. You can make your driver perform better if you use it in an array.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

A Bit About Line Arrays
These tests do not address usage of ribbons stacked in line arrays. A line array will spread the load among several drivers, which will lower harmonic distortion. When the level of a tweeter is lowered, the harmonic distortion is also lowered.

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:36 PM
SO, now lets see if you can wrap your mind around this:
Lets say that the ants are poor ants compared to the colony next to them, like they are only born with 3 legs or something. Then, because of their weakness, putting a bunch of them together still isn't going to be as good as starting out with good ants. IE the colony next to them. ;)

That is a totally different argument, the drivers are both in the same alignment. I dont disagree with the fact that a line array of Revelators will sound better than a line array of oem vifa buyouts (just an example).

I do disagree with the fact that a driver will sound the same (ie bad) even if all alignments are exercised.

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:38 PM
That wasnt the point I was trying to get across...and by using *gathering ants* as an example vs *hunting ants* totally destroys the metaphor. They have to be hunting ants for it to work, lets be specific and use the *Kiafu* of africa.

The kiafu can overwhelm animals larger then them by several orders of magnitude (ex. chickens in africa) by attacking in numbers. Ive never seen reports of preying manti (sp?) eating chickens. There have even been reports of Kiafu overwhelming humans and killing them, only for the fellow village people to discover the mutilated body much later.

Still.... Lets take these Kiafu ants and lets remove a leg or two. Now, take their ability to Hunt vs a normal ants ability to hunt. The Normal ant is going to have more of an advantage on it's own and whole colony does too. Lets take a regular cute little back and vs this notoriously nasty Kiafu ant. Which would be a better hunter? DUH, the Kiafu. Does that make sense? Do you get what I am saying?

Start out with a high quality product and add them together makes it better. Start out with a crappy product and add them together you might be lucky to come away with something decent....

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:42 PM
That is a totally different argument, the drivers are both in the same alignment. I dont disagree with the fact that a line array of Revelators will sound better than a line array of oem vifa buyouts (just an example).

I do disagree with the fact that a driver will sound the same (ie bad) even if all alignments are exercised.

They don't sound the same.... The have the same basic sound..... Obviously when you put a compression driver in a horn body it won't sound the same, obviously when you are cutting the excursion in half they won't sound the same.

BUT, they will have the same BASIC sound. Meaning, if they **** to start out with they will **** in the end.... SIMPLE as that.... If you make an array out of Driver A, driver A does not all of a sudden sound like Driver B because it's in an array. It still sounds like Driver A.

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:47 PM
You are comparing alignments...I agree with you on this. I do NOT agree with you that a single cute black ant would be a better hunter than a whole colony (ie several million) of Kiafu. Regardless you are mutilating my metaphor...which only work in specific examples. You cant change certain details, the metaphor wont always work out if you do.

If you start off with cheap drivers, use enough of them, and implement them correctly you can drive distortion below inaudibility until you reach ear shattering levels where severe damage to the cilia in your ears is occuring.

...I dont think you're getting what im trying to say. You're treading on common ground:D I agree with you that high quality drivers in a line array will sound better than lower quality drivers in a line array.

I DO NOT agree with you that the specific driver will always sound bad independent of the alignment used.

thadman
01-20-2007, 06:48 PM
No...the characteristics that made that certain driver **** (those which cannot be corrected with electronic means, ex. high distortion) have been driven into inaudibility. It may not **** in the end if implemented correctly.

joetama
01-20-2007, 06:55 PM
No...the characteristics that made that certain driver **** have all but disappeared. It may not **** in the end if implemented correctly.

I don't understand why your metephore is better than mine? :laugh:

I guess we will just agree to disagree, because over the internet you are NOT going to change my mind on something very logical to me and I am not going to be able to change your mind on something you find logical.

To each his own. You love your Line Arrays, I don't think they are that great. But, Line Arrays are no better than conventional speakers just as conventional speakers are no better than Line Arrays... I am just agreeing to disagree because I am tired of this ****. Nothing is the answer to everything.... FYI...

newusername
01-20-2007, 07:01 PM
You can certainly tell that this is a car audio forum.

If you think you can get the same sound in a smaller package, then you should probably stick to the vehicle or simple MTM's you may be used to.

Line arrays are a totally different sound.

BTW, using NSB's is an oft-repeated way to success at an affordable cost. I don't see anyone commenting that the driver used is a low-distortion product driver.

This is truly caraudio.com at it's finest!

joetama
01-20-2007, 07:05 PM
You can certainly tell that this is a car audio forum.

If you think you can get the same sound in a smaller package, then you should probably stick to the vehicle or simple MTM's you may be used to.

Line arrays are a totally different sound.

BTW, using NSB's is an oft-repeated way to success at an affordable cost. I don't see anyone commenting that the driver used is a low-distortion product driver.

This is truly caraudio.com at it's finest!

Line Array ppl are all the same.... Read what you want into everything that everyone says.... It's not like any of us know anything anyway, I am so sorry for not being in that Elite breed that you guys are in. I AM NOT WORTHY!..

LOL :laugh:

thylantyr
01-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Line Array ppl are all the same.... Read what you want into everything that everyone says.... It's not like any of us know anything anyway, I am so sorry for not being in that Elite breed that you guys are in. I AM NOT WORTHY!..

LOL :laugh:

This thread went off topic because you said on post #4 that you don't
know why so many tweeters were used.

Explaining the 'why' part is outside the scope of this thread. You need to
read up and educate yourself on how they work. But being cool as we
are, we decided to tell you the 'why' part because we have no reason
to keep secrets, not to mention this is common knowledge if you spend 10
minutes reading up on the subject using google. lol

Even thought we told you the 'why' part, you choose to ignore the 'why'
and instead, you like to keep posting on why you don't like like arrays.

If you don't like them, why not start your own thread "I hate line arrays".

This thread is a picture thread for a newly built line array project using
49 cent midranges and 85 cent tweeters, someone in cyber built the array
and posted it on the PE forum. I just linked it as an FYI.... lol

Don't be a baby.

mrogowski
01-22-2007, 10:35 AM
They don't sound the same.... The have the same basic sound..... Obviously when you put a compression driver in a horn body it won't sound the same, obviously when you are cutting the excursion in half they won't sound the same.

BUT, they will have the same BASIC sound. Meaning, if they **** to start out with they will **** in the end.... SIMPLE as that.... If you make an array out of Driver A, driver A does not all of a sudden sound like Driver B because it's in an array. It still sounds like Driver A.

Both "sides" have made interesting arguments. Thy/Thad, I know exactly where you guys are coming from with regards to distortion, movement, etc. - less is most certainly better.

However, B&W does make a point here. Let me expand on it a bit and use a different analogy.

If we take a tweeter for example, that had a massive peak at 12-15kHz, say 10db, resulting in a shrill-like sound quality. This tweeter cost you a buck. You decided to use this unit in a line array and purchased 25 of them. You impliment the 25 tweeter line array knowing you will decrease distortion, excursion and increase SPL. That part is a real added bonus.

The downside to this is the fact that you will still have the same trademark peak at 12-15kHz resulting in a shrill-like sound quality, despite how many tweeters you have used. So the sound will still **** regardless of how many you use...

There, said my bit.

Best,
Mark

thylantyr
01-22-2007, 11:55 AM
Both "sides" have made interesting arguments. Thy/Thad, I know exactly where you guys are coming from with regards to distortion, movement, etc. - less is most certainly better.

However, B&W does make a point here. Let me expand on it a bit and use a different analogy.

If we take a tweeter for example, that had a massive peak at 12-15kHz, say 10db, resulting in a shrill-like sound quality. This tweeter cost you a buck. You decided to use this unit in a line array and purchased 25 of them. You impliment the 25 tweeter line array knowing you will decrease distortion, excursion and increase SPL. That part is a real added bonus.

The downside to this is the fact that you will still have the same trademark peak at 12-15kHz resulting in a shrill-like sound quality, despite how many tweeters you have used. So the sound will still **** regardless of how many you use...

There, said my bit.

Best,
Mark

That is an obvious scenario. You found a driver with a problem and decided to
use it in a design knowing it has a nasty gremlin. Every driver has issues,
even high end drivers.

That NSB/ApexJr line array is a bare bones design, 49 cent mids and 85 cent
tweeters. The mids have alot of potential depending on how you use them,
but the tweeters are the real bottleneck. Mylar tweeters aren't my favorite,
they need ~5khz crossover point, way too high to make a high end sound
system, but you can make a very good sound system for the money.

Here's a mylar that cost under $5. A cheaper Goldwood cost $1.85.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-840.pdf

We don't know what it really does unless you test it, but lets assume
the chart is pretty accurate, there is no obvious problems with that tweeter
other than you can only use a higher crossover point.

Here's the $4 dome good for a line array;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

Actual measured data;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/275-035g.pdf

This tweeter ain't perfect either, but you can easily work with it.

Dayton dome - $12
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-045
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/275-045g.pdf
A more expensive tweeter {not for line array}, it has issues.

Check out this tweeter; $72
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-145

Chart here;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/270-145g.pdf

Nasty....

Two cheap tweeters under $5 that have a good chart. One $72 tweeter
that is nasty.

****

You can't assume that cheap drivers are bad performers. If you look at
mainstream commercial product, ie Polk, Klipsch, etc., they use very cheap
drivers if you were to take one apart. Even quality drivers have big problems
and the what seperates one manufacturer's loudspeaker from another
using the same drivers is the clever passive crossover design they use to fix
the gremlins.

mrogowski
01-22-2007, 04:49 PM
But that is what B&W was trying to get across I believe. The sonic signature(s) of the product will remain no matter how many you use.

Megalomaniac
01-22-2007, 05:18 PM
ants?

hmm....

i've never heard a line array so i cant say much. but from observing mentally. You are saying that a line array with a bunch poor quailty drivers in a good box will sound better than a high quaility driver. hmm i can see that... but what if u take that same box and put a bunch of high quailty drivers(assuming the same specs) in there. wouldnt the higher quailty drivers pwn the other ones?

thylantyr
01-22-2007, 05:35 PM
i've never heard a line array so i cant say much.

A good line array is hella sweet in performance. You gotta check it out someday.

but from observing mentally. You are saying that a line array with a bunch poor quailty drivers in a good box will sound better than a high quaility driver. hmm i can see that... but what if u take that same box and put a bunch of high quailty drivers(assuming the same specs) in there. wouldnt the higher quailty drivers pwn the other ones?

Lets recap the thread so people understand.

Page 1;


someone said;
holy **** 96 tweets in total how big is that office


someone said;
Doesn't make sense to me....


someone said;
96 tweeters is just stupid. Don't care how you try to excuse it.
Stupid.

****

An explaination was given to why you need alot of tweeters in a line array design. If you don't have alot of drivers, how can it be a line array ?

****


someone said; If you have a turd that smells.... By putting a bunch of those turds in a bag they should stop smelling.... RIGHT? NO!!!!
Welcome to the world of "it doesn't make sense" line arrays.....

Here is where the problem starts. People were assuming that the drivers
used were low quality. How do they know if the drivers are low quality or not?
They don't. They looked at the price of the midrange, 49 cents; 85 cents for
the tweeter, and assumed the drivers are poor in quality and don't sound good.

The second assumption.
They assumed the design is bad even though we don't know anything about the
crossover design. Even high end drivers can have nasty gremlins, but nobody
seems to complains about them, lol ... You can alter driver performance with clever crossover design.

****

The issue really isn't about 'bad driver' vs. 'good driver', the issue is how to
increase performance of ' a driver' if you use it in a line array design.

For instance, headphone drivers are excellent in sound, but they need to be close
to your ear to hear higher SPL than listening to the driver from far away. If you use
drivers that are good sounding at lower SPL, but their distortion rises alot when you
want normal SPL from the speaker system, that driver isn't a good candidate in a standalone
design, but if you were to make an array, performance rises. A line array of headphone
drivers would make a funny project BTW... lol

My PT2 planar tweeter cost $25. Standalone it's nothing special. Sounds great at low
SPL, but distortion rises if you push it to a higher SPL level. But in a proper line array design,
the SPL level rises alot at the low distortion output of each tweeter. The line array 'effect'
is what hits the home run. MORE is ALOT better.

Megalomaniac
01-22-2007, 05:39 PM
hmmm... i guess it comes down to efficiency i guess?

joetama
01-22-2007, 05:46 PM
hmmm... i guess it comes down to efficiency i guess?

Do you like ants... I don't... Little bastards **** me of....

:laugh:

thylantyr
01-22-2007, 05:52 PM
hmmm... i guess it comes down to efficiency i guess?

I like high sensitivity, low distortion, high SPL speaker designs mated to monster
amps in bridge mode. :yumyum: :cool:

Horns and line arrays are two common methods to achieve this. I like them both,
but the line array has better SQ potential if you use quality drivers. It cost more
to execute the design {lots of drivers}.

Megalomaniac
01-22-2007, 06:01 PM
not better than this :uhoh:

http://twojepc.pl/html/audio_show_2003/nautilus1.jpg

joetama
01-22-2007, 06:02 PM
^^^^^

I literally laughed out loud when I saw that...

FTW!

thylantyr
01-22-2007, 06:29 PM
not better than this :uhoh:

http://twojepc.pl/html/audio_show_2003/nautilus1.jpg


I'm waiting for it to hatch.....

Rumor says this place builds those :p:

http://www.framingham.k12.ma.us/k5/more%20framingham/Bose%20Corporation.jpg

Megalomaniac
01-22-2007, 06:34 PM
^^^^^

I literally laughed out loud when I saw that...

FTW!

I knew you'd get a kick out of that...


I'm waiting for it to hatch.....

Rumor says this place builds those :p:

http://www.framingham.k12.ma.us/k5/more%20framingham/Bose%20Corporation.jpg

OHNOezzz...the worldz comin to end :crying:

joetama
01-22-2007, 06:34 PM
^^^^

That's just dirty......

thadman
01-22-2007, 06:40 PM
If we take a tweeter for example, that had a massive peak at 12-15kHz, say 10db, resulting in a shrill-like sound quality. This tweeter cost you a buck. You decided to use this unit in a line array and purchased 25 of them. You impliment the 25 tweeter line array knowing you will decrease distortion, excursion and increase SPL. That part is a real added bonus.

The downside to this is the fact that you will still have the same trademark peak at 12-15kHz resulting in a shrill-like sound quality, despite how many tweeters you have used. So the sound will still **** regardless of how many you use...

There, said my bit.

Best,
Mark

Well, as a result of using a great multitude of drivers you have almost unlimited dynamic capability and because of this you can EQ any of those gremlins out with no penalty. There you go, shrill sound is gone.