PDA

View Full Version : Bad Line Array Designs



thylantyr
01-13-2007, 01:45 PM
I feel your pain if you hate line arrays considering so many bad designs on the market that don't really show you what they are capable of. Not your fault you hate them, you never experienced a good one.


** bad designs **
Here is two new ones on the market.
*********************************************
Gallo $15k
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2007/011207shin/

Copernicus II
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2007/011107copernicus/
*********************************************

others;

McIntosh XRT28
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=20&cat=Loudspeaker+Systems&prodid=1042&product=XRT28

McIntosh XRT2k
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=20&cat=Loudspeaker+Systems&prodid=1114&product=XRT2K

VMPS Super Tower III
http://www.vmpsaudio.com/ST3.htm

VMPS Elixir
http://www.vmpsaudio.com/RMX.htm



*** DIY line arrays ***
Not all are great either, can you figure out which ones are proper in design
vs. not ideal ?

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/

ngsm13
01-13-2007, 01:46 PM
Don't care.

nG

joetama
01-13-2007, 10:03 PM
So basically, besides the directivity issues what makes you say these are bad line array designs?

What do you think of these?

http://aca.gr/pop_skal.htm

And what would make them good or bad?

thylantyr
01-14-2007, 03:29 AM
what makes you say these are bad line array designs?

Each one has it's own issues.

What do you think of these?
http://aca.gr/pop_skal.htm

I see a loudspeaker, but it's not worthy of being called a line array by modern
expectations. lol

Nothing wrong with this automobile, but c'mon, you can make one better
DIY one. http://www.uh.edu/engines/model-t.gif

I really don't know why certain manufacturers make such crummy designs.

IamDeMan
01-14-2007, 06:29 AM
That first one is just stupid. I thought one of the biggest rules when doing a line was to keep the drivers as close as physically possible for coupling? That Gallo makes no effort in doing so.

IamDeMan
01-14-2007, 06:34 AM
BTW Thy, you are defiitely getting a bit fan boyish lately.

Eugenics
01-14-2007, 06:36 AM
all the good line arrays i have seen on this site thus far have been made out of cheap wood. judging by the materials used in the products linked i the thread. these all must be over priced pieces of ****. i have read consumer reports guys, i know what i'm talking about.

SAG3
01-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Wow

joetama
01-14-2007, 09:50 AM
all the good line arrays i have seen on this site thus far have been made out of cheap wood. judging by the materials used in the products linked i the thread. these all must be over priced pieces of ****. i have read consumer reports guys, i know what i'm talking about.

Hahahha.... :laugh:

That was funny...

Anyway, I want to know what EXACTLY is not good about them. I always have to justify what I say on this forum so I want to know! I don't get how you can judge a loudspeaker by looking at it either... ;)

IamDeMan
01-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Hahahha.... :laugh:

That was funny...

Anyway, I want to know what EXACTLY is not good about them. I always have to justify what I say on this forum so I want to know! I don't get how you can judge a loudspeaker by looking at it either... ;)
The first one I already explained why it is a poor design. The others I have no clue why they are no good. We will have to wait for the resident expert on line arrays to tell us why.

joetama
01-14-2007, 10:57 AM
The first one I already explained why it is a poor design. The others I have no clue why they are no good. We will have to wait for the resident expert on line arrays to tell us why.

See, what can you tell from the picture? I can't really tell anything, maybe he used the distance as a phase coupling advantage. Who knows, I am sure there is a reason for what he did. Don't you think?

Eugenics
01-14-2007, 02:37 PM
thanks to you fucks i had a dream about buying a line array.... still have no clue what i'd do with it.

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:40 PM
thanks to you fucks i had a dream about buying a line array.... still have no clue what i'd do with it.

Put it next to some good speakers and pretend you are listening to a line array?

:laugh::eyebrow::up2somet:

thylantyr
01-14-2007, 02:40 PM
Problems with this one.
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2007/011207shin/

Tweeters and midrange alternate. It would be much better to move
all the same drivers to one contiguous line; ie all midwoofers on the left,
all tweeter on the right of the baffle with low midrange CTC spacing.

8 4" midranges is a joke. You need 16.
7 tweeters isn't enough, you need to double up.

"The 5LS has no crossover other than a first-order low-pass filter and can be bi- or tri-amped, although "any capably designed amplifier can drive them."

Do they not know how to make a crossover? :laugh:

"Twelve rear-firing 4" subwoofer drivers"

You don't want to integrate a subwoofer into your mains.
It's best to have a seperate sub.

Everything about it is bad. This design is something the 6th grade kids
did for a science fair project. Something neat that kids made, but complete wrong in design.

************************************************** ************

From this you can probably analyze the other bad designs.

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Problems with this one.
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2007/011207shin/

Tweeters and midrange alternate. It would be much better to move
all the same drivers to one contiguous line; ie all midwoofers on the left,
all tweeter on the right of the baffle with low midrange CTC spacing.

8 4" midranges is a joke. You need 16.
7 tweeters isn't enough, you need to double up.

"The 5LS has no crossover other than a first-order low-pass filter and can be bi- or tri-amped, although "any capably designed amplifier can drive them."

Do they not know how to make a crossover? :laugh:

"Twelve rear-firing 4" subwoofer drivers"

What a joke, you never want to integrate a subwoofer into your mains.
It's best to have a seperate sub.

Everything about it is bad. This design is something the 6th grade kids
did for a science fair project. Something neat that kids made, but complete wrong in design.

************************************************** ************

From this you can probably analyze the other bad designs.

Wow... I think you might actually be becoming a elitist like me!!! :up2somet:

Beat_Dominator
01-14-2007, 02:43 PM
I trust Gallo more than you. Maybe 8 of HIS mids are enough. I'll believe you when you test a design of your own using the exact same drivers.

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:45 PM
I trust Gallo more than you. Maybe 8 of HIS mids are enough. I'll believe you when you test a design of your own using the exact same drivers.

Har har har... True that player.....

You still have the pre-amp for sale???:laugh:

Beat_Dominator
01-14-2007, 02:47 PM
It's on ebay, knock yourself out.

azbass
01-14-2007, 02:47 PM
old sq guys look goofy.

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:59 PM
It's on ebay, knock yourself out.

Do I at least get a link to it?? :crying::crap::blackeye:

Eugenics
01-14-2007, 03:06 PM
i want a line array of those awesome bose drivers. i mean if a pair of them can fill a WHOLE ROOM with audiophile quality sound imagine what 16 pairs can do!!!

thylantyr
01-14-2007, 05:27 PM
I trust Gallo more than you. Maybe 8 of HIS mids are enough. I'll believe you when you test a design of your own using the exact same drivers.


You can't defy the laws of science. You might as well give your soul to Bose. :laugh:

thylantyr
01-14-2007, 05:28 PM
i want a line array of those awesome bose drivers. i mean if a pair of them can fill a WHOLE ROOM with audiophile quality sound imagine what 16 pairs can do!!!

I think the Bose drivers are fine, it's that the *whole* design is crippled. Give me
Bose mids and let me choose tweeters and then we have a new system with
much better SQ. :)

Beat_Dominator
01-14-2007, 05:29 PM
Tell me what laws of science you are referring to.

IamDeMan
01-14-2007, 06:10 PM
See, what can you tell from the picture? I can't really tell anything, maybe he used the distance as a phase coupling advantage. Who knows, I am sure there is a reason for what he did. Don't you think? Everything I have read about line arrays goes against that design. Maybe he did it because it looks better and he knows some ******* will spend a buttload of money on it.

joetama
01-14-2007, 08:29 PM
Tell me what laws of science you are referring to.

Yea.... Good question....


Everything I have read about line arrays goes against that design. Maybe he did it because it looks better and he knows some ******* will spend a buttload of money on it.

But, some ******* will spend a butt load of money on it...

:naughty:

Eugenics
01-14-2007, 09:06 PM
bose is cool

thylantyr
01-14-2007, 09:30 PM
To understand the issue better. You need to know what is a line source vs.
line array.

A line source is a tall and narrow radiating surface, ie you have a 7"
contiguous planar, ribbon, etc driver, could be a midrange driver or tweeter,
even woofer, lol.

A line array is a group of radiating elements in a straight line and it's not
contiguous.

By definition, a line source speaker is different than a line array speaker.

You can have line source performance from a line array design - by stacking
drivers close together to create the illusion of one radiating surface. By using
the comb filtering formula, you can develop a line array to mimic a line source.

You can also cheat a little bit on the design.

Problem is;

The Gallo speaker claims -> The "LS" in the 5LS's model designation stands for "line source"

Obviously it's not a line source. It's a line array as you have a group of radiating
elements; the seperate midranges and tweeters.

Furthermore, for it to be a good line array design, by spacing the tweeter
elements far apart is very counterproductive to making a proper line array.
The midrange can be spaced further apart depending on the drivers and crossover frequency. You can also cheat the midranges but not the tweeters.

You said you trust Gallo more than you trust me but science tells you
that the Gallo design is a bad design and there is nothing they can do
to compensate for everything that is in error in the design.

If you were to audition this design and it sounds good, that is ok --- really ---
You can say "Hey, I heard this Gallo speaker XYZ and it sounded good".

But it would be wrong to say "Hey, I know what a line source speaker sounds like
because I heard the Gallo XYZ speaker". **No you did not. You didn't listen to a line
source speaker, but you did listen to a poor implementation of a line array *

.. lol ...

It is also wrong to say "Hey, I don't like line array speakers because the Gallo XYZ speaker
I auditioned sounded poor".. * Yes, you did listen to a line array speaker, but it's poorly
designed and maybe that's why it ******... next time listen to a better design *.

.. lol ...

thylantyr
01-16-2007, 05:22 PM
Jim bashes the line arrays that I posted in this thread supporting my claims...

hee hee harr harr........

http://audioroundtable.com/ArraySpeakers/messages/1333.html

The Alltronics focused array is what I call a double dumb speaker. First, the designer must be crazy to spend money to develop such a limited design and secondly, the purchaser must be crazy to pay over $20K for a system with those shortcomings.

If you visit the www.atssounds.com website that describes these speakers they state:

"The “sweet spot” is approximately one foot wide, three feet deep, and only 3 inches tall. Persons outside the spot will experience a very pleasant, full sound, comparable in quality to many fine speaker systems. But the person inside the listening area will experience a sonic experience which is breathtaking in its presence, clarity, depth, and accuracy."

That is truly a single chair ride in anybody's book. If you slump or sit up in your chair, you lose the magic experience.

Just how many of these focused arrays do they really plan to sell anyway? How many fools in the universe?

Jim




http://audioroundtable.com/ArraySpeakers/messages/1332.html
Gallo's speakers focus on their looks vs. any pretext of sound engineering so keep that in mind when you see such a design. Unless Gallo is operating in a different universe than we are, they the elements of acoustical physics still apply to his designs versus the rest of us.

The intermixed spacing of woofers and tweeters is still subject to the same combing concerns as more conventional arrays. This is especially the case for the woofers. The center to center spacing between the woofers has to be at least 8 inches apart so figure on what such a spacing will impact combing from the woofers. This combing isn't a good thing by any means. The tweeters are likely ribbons so they will be less apt to exhibit combing effects if the vertical plane radiation overlap is somewhat limited. Short ribbon tweeters do have more vertical plane overlap vs. longer ribbon versions but the overlap tends to diminish as frequency increases which reduces combing as I explain in my white paper.

While Gallo claims no crossover, the low pass filter on the woofers is part of a crossover per se. In reality he is using the acoustical roll off characteristics of these drivers and the low pass filter on the woofers to effect a crossover. Line arrays with low order crossovers tend to have more issues with interferences and combing so I would not suggest that this design concept is worth of emulation.

Jim


:beathors: :handclap: :woot:

Beat_Dominator
01-16-2007, 05:55 PM
I still see no scientific proof that it is a "bad" design. Unconventional, poor performance, whatever..... I just don't like unsubstantiated claims.

thylantyr
01-16-2007, 06:06 PM
I still see no scientific proof that it is a "bad" design. Unconventional, poor performance, whatever..... I just don't like unsubstantiated claims.

Have you read his document?

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf

This document is based on research data below; You can read all
the research data going back 30 years or read the simple text.

Read post #28 again. Gallo claims 'line source' when it obviously is not, it's
impossible because he's using seperate drivers {many elements = line array}.

So....Gallo claims it's a line source, but it's not. If you claim that it's a line array instead,
that's ok, but it's the worse design if you wanted to mimic it.

Don't you think it's cool to look at commercial product and analyze it?
It's educational and makes you stronger. It might even motivate a person
to build their own and it will be superior without having to spend $20k.

Line Array References
[1] M. Urban, C. Heil,and P. Bauman, “Wavefront Sculpture Technology”, presented at
the 111th AES Convention, New York, September 21-24, 2001.

[2] C. Heil, and M. Urban, “Sound Fields Radiated by Multiple Sound Sources Arrays”,
presented at the 92nd AES Convention, Vienna, March 24-27, 1992.

[3] M. Ureda, “Line Arrays: Theory and Applications”, presented at the 110th AES
Convention, Amsterdam, May 12-15,2001.

[4] J. Eargle, D. Scheirman, and M. Ureda, “JBL’s Vertical Technology: Achieving
Optimum Line Array Performance Through Predictive Analysis, Unique Acoustics
Elements and a New Loudspeaker System”, presented at the AES Convention,
September , 2000 and also available from:
http://www.jblpro.com/vertec1/VerTec%20WP%202.3.pdf

[5] M. Ureda, “ ‘J’ and ‘Spiral’ Line Arrays”, presented at the 111th AES Convention, New
York, September 21-24, 2001.

[6] S. Lipshitz and J. Vanderkooy, “The Acoustics Radiation of Line Sources of Finite
Length”, presented at the 81st AES Convention, Los Angeles, November 12-16, 1986.

[7] P. Taylor, “The Line-Source Loudspeaker and Its Applications”, Vol. 44, No. 3 British
Kinematography (J. Brit. Kinematograph Soc.), vol. 44, 1964 March.

[8] D. Smith, “Discrete-Element Line Arrays – Their Modeling and Optimization, J. Audio
Eng. Soc., vol. 45, no. 11, 1997 November.

[9] G. Augspurger, “Near-Field and Far-Field performance of Large Woofer Arrays”, J.
Audio Eng. Soc., vol.38, no. 4, 1990 April.

[10] E. Geddes and L. Lee, Audio Transducers, p.68. 2002.

[11] M. Ureda, “Pressure Response of Lines Sources”, presented at the 113th AES
Convention, Los Angeles, October 5-8, 2002.
.

thylantyr
01-16-2007, 06:08 PM
Maybe Gallo has been drinking to much wine while sketching speaker ideas....

http://www.gallo.com/

Beat_Dominator
01-16-2007, 06:29 PM
Eh, I like to stay in the "don't knock it until you try it" camp on these types of things.

thylantyr
01-16-2007, 06:44 PM
Eh, I like to stay in the "don't knock it until you try it" camp on these types of things.

Don't use this methodology when seeking female hookers. Always verify 'The Design' before spending big dollars. :peace: :hide:

joetama
01-16-2007, 09:16 PM
Don't use this methodology when seeking female hookers. Always verify 'The Design' before spending big dollars. :peace: :hide:

female hookers do not equal speakers....

mrogowski
01-17-2007, 10:42 AM
Ah, it doesn't matter what any of you say. Bose is the most superior technology available to date - hands down.

:hide:

joetama
01-17-2007, 11:02 AM
^^^^^
Oh god.... Do not look into the ark....

mrogowski
01-17-2007, 11:12 AM
:laugh:

Excuse the trolling... ;)

joetama
01-17-2007, 11:19 AM
:laugh:

Excuse the trolling... ;)

Trolling is fine... As long as your fly is up....