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NCHEVYHEVN
01-11-2007, 09:01 PM
I'm looking for a high effiency midrange that could keep up with some Image Dynamics CD1-e horns. I was planning on also running some Dayton RS-225 8'' midbass.

I was looking at these which are remakes of the originals.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=6502117.5161&pid=107

I heard the originals were really good but I'm not sure on these. Are they the same as the originals and will they match well with the daytons? They are 100watts @ 8ohms while the Daytons are only 80watts @ 4ohms.

Any other suggestions for midranges?

JonJT
01-11-2007, 09:08 PM
Those Audax woofers are excellent

Edit: I'm afraid you might run out of thermal power handling with those Daytons. Your going to need to push a lot of power through your midbasses to keep yup with a high efficiency midrange and some horns. Not to mention, the Xmax is kind a low.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-11-2007, 09:15 PM
Those Audax woofers are excellent

Edit: I'm afraid you might run out of thermal power handling with those Daytons. Your going to need to push a lot of power through your midbasses to keep yup with a high efficiency midrange and some horns. Not to mention, the Xmax is kind a low.

Yea, that's what I was afraid of. I was thinking that those Dayton's might end up being the weaklink. :crap: Any suggestions. Maybe the Adire Extremis?

squeak9798
01-11-2007, 09:47 PM
Price/Performance wise; those Audax remakes are your best option. There are some others...but most are about 2x the price.

About the 2nd best option I can think of (price included as a factor) to look into is Eminence. But from all accounts those Audax were great midranges....I would honestly make those my #1 option.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-11-2007, 09:57 PM
Price/Performance wise; those Audax remakes are your best option. There are some others...but most are about 2x the price.

About the 2nd best option I can think of (price included as a factor) to look into is Eminence. But from all accounts those Audax were great midranges....I would honestly make those my #1 option.

Do you think those Dayton midbasses are a good choice to go along with the rest of the setup?

T3mpest
01-12-2007, 12:42 AM
Do you think those Dayton midbasses are a good choice to go along with the rest of the setup?

yeah, the daytons are known for being very solid midbass drivers on a budget. I'd go with the daytons and the audax, but that's me, in terms of budget/performance. The extremis is a great woofer, but it's more expensive. If you can afford the extremis and an amp to power them that would be a great choice too, albeit a bit more expensive.

JonJT
01-12-2007, 12:58 AM
Remember I said might. I haven't actually heard them. If they aren't good enough you aren't gonna know untill really high volumes and even that depends on the type of music you listen to and what kind of eqing your using. I say try them first and make provisions if they don't suit you.

How much money would you be willing to spend if you bought new woofers?

3.5Max6spd
01-12-2007, 09:07 AM
That midrange looks perfect to match with horns, xmax is not really an issue to worry about in the midrange( although itrs the reason that 6.5"! is no good below 500hz). The only thing i see as a problem is the HP xover point you are going to need for the midrange will ask a greater range from your 8". From a efficiency/output standpoint on the lower end of the midbass you want a lesser range covered by those Daytons to keep up as you pile on the volume with the other drivers. I think they could work up a more than modest sound pressure point, but then run out of steam above that. Heck for $40 a driver its worth a try.

The RS225-4's with 70rms can comparibly boogie with my Lotus 8's with nearly 350rms per driver in my car.

JonJT
01-12-2007, 03:54 PM
That midrange looks perfect to match with horns, xmax is not really an issue to worry about in the midrange( although itrs the reason that 6.5"! is no good below 500hz). The only thing i see as a problem is the HP xover point you are going to need for the midrange will ask a greater range from your 8". From a efficiency/output standpoint on the lower end of the midbass you want a lesser range covered by those Daytons to keep up as you pile on the volume with the other drivers. I think they could work up a more than modest sound pressure point, but then run out of steam above that. Heck for $40 a driver its worth a try.

The RS225-4's with 70rms can comparibly boogie with my Lotus 8's with nearly 350rms per driver in my car.

I've seen people cross that Audax at 250-300hz with a steep slope and careful eqing. I plan on doing the same when I get mine.

3.5Max6spd
01-12-2007, 04:40 PM
I've seen people cross that Audax at 250-300hz with a steep slope and careful eqing. I plan on doing the same when I get mine.

Yeah, you can also benefit from the typical boost in-car in the 400hz region. In certain setups I've had dedicated midbass @ 250hz 12db LP, with certain midranges underlapped between a 300-500hz HP depending on driver and location.

Good luck.

squeak9798
01-12-2007, 06:10 PM
I've seen people cross that Audax at 250-300hz with a steep slope and careful eqing. I plan on doing the same when I get mine.

Winslow has stated they are "good" down to about 175hz @ 24db/oct.

Though crossing at 300hz would very likely have less distortion.


Anyways, about the Daytons; As was said, they are supposed to have solid midbass so they very well could work. There are some other options aswell, most of which are a little harder to find. Though the Peerless SLS that (I believe) replaced the XLS looks interesting.

T3mpest
01-12-2007, 07:38 PM
Winslow has stated they are "good" down to about 175hz @ 24db/oct.

Though crossing at 300hz would very likely have less distortion.


Anyways, about the Daytons; As was said, they are supposed to have solid midbass so they very well could work. There are some other options aswell, most of which are a little harder to find. Though the Peerless SLS that (I believe) replaced the XLS looks interesting.

SLS are considered the replacement for the xls in DIY circles. A bit less xmax, but better for an IB install.

WLDock
01-12-2007, 10:10 PM
Here is another midrange to check out:
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-6PEV13-1.htm

As far as midbass? The Daytons might work but I would go with a more capable driver. The Peerless XLS would have been nice but lets move past that....The SLS sounds like a nice but there are other drivers that might work.

Yeah, T3mpest is right the JBL's would not work up that high(400Hz).

T3mpest
01-13-2007, 12:26 AM
Here is another midrange to check out:
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-6PEV13-1.htm

As far as midbass? The Daytons might work but I would go with a more capable driver. The Peerless XLS would have been nice but lets move past that....The SLS sounds like a nice but there are other drivers that might work.
Some have used the JBL GTO804 for midbass duty. Give them 200watts each.

JBL GTO804
Sens(2.83V@1M) - 91dB
Power - 200Wrms/800Wpeak
Freq. Resp. - 30Hz-400Hz
Nom. Imp. - 4 Ohms
4-5/16" Mounting depth
XMAX - 11.50mm
Qts - 0.42
BL - 12.88Tm
http://www.jbl.com/car/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=GTO804&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=SUB&ser=GTS

About $59.99 each
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7443.html

Large Side Picture
http://www.nardik.se/bilder/jbl/gto804sida2_s.jpg
http://www.nardik.se/bilder/jbl/gto804sida2_m.jpg

really heavy moving mass on those. Those things wouldn't even make it to 400hz sounding decent. Those are dedicated subs, not a midbass driver.

WLDock
01-13-2007, 03:26 AM
Yeah, I guess the mass is a bit much to get up to 400Hz.

Louisiana_CRX
01-13-2007, 04:05 AM
I have a pair of old school 6" USD midbass drivers...98db efficiency brand new in th' box....talk about efficiency...USD was the original makers of horn drivers before Image Dynamics...one of their most famed builds was Richard Clarks legendary Grand National...:)

JonJT
01-13-2007, 02:27 PM
Yeah, you can also benefit from the typical boost in-car in the 400hz region. In certain setups I've had dedicated midbass @ 250hz 12db LP, with certain midranges underlapped between a 300-500hz HP depending on driver and location.

Good luck.

Underlapped, really why? What benefit did that bring?

JonJT
01-13-2007, 02:34 PM
Winslow has stated they are "good" down to about 175hz @ 24db/oct.

Though crossing at 300hz would very likely have less distortion.


Anyways, about the Daytons; As was said, they are supposed to have solid midbass so they very well could work. There are some other options aswell, most of which are a little harder to find. Though the Peerless SLS that (I believe) replaced the XLS looks interesting.

Thats pretty low. I think I'd rather have the midbass play that frequency. Wouldn't it be beneficial to have the midbass play as high as possible, so long as it stays omnidirectional?

WLDock
01-13-2007, 06:13 PM
Well, 200Hz is the point where it start to get directional. That is why I think it might be a good option for the original poster to go with the larger RS125 mid over the RS52 mids. If he can get the pod large enough so that the response is smooth down to 200Hz that would be the best bet. Not always an easy thing to do.

Bottom Line...
If you have the option to do so, keep the midbass playing as low as possible.

T3mpest
01-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Underlapped, really why? What benefit did that bring?

none necessarily, but if both driver are fairly close to each other they'd end up acting as 1 driver during those frequencies. Due to the way slopes combine as well as cabin gain, you rarely need to set all the speaker to take up exactly where the other one left off.

JonJT
01-13-2007, 08:06 PM
Well, 200Hz is the point where it start to get directional. That is why I think it might be a good option for the original poster to go with the larger RS125 mid over the RS52 mids. If he can get the pod large enough so that the response is smooth down to 200Hz that would be the best bet. Not always an easy thing to do.

Bottom Line...
If you have the option to do so, keep the midbass playing as low as possible.

Did you get that number from calculations based on woofer cone diameter? Or was it based on how the human ear hears? I've heard a ton of numbers as to where bass becomes directional, most of it either doesn't include solid data or seems to forget the fact that physics isn't the only thing governing how a woofer sounds.

I personally wouldn't want to run that Audax so low, but I'm surely going to experiment with X-over frequencies when I get my woofers set up and glassed in.

JonJT
01-13-2007, 08:06 PM
none necessarily, but if both driver are fairly close to each other they'd end up acting as 1 driver during those frequencies. Due to the way slopes combine as well as cabin gain, you rarely need to set all the speaker to take up exactly where the other one left off.

Yeah, your right, you'd end up getting some boost and comb filtering since you have the same frequencies coming from two surfaces.

WLDock
01-14-2007, 07:23 AM
Did you get that number from calculations based on woofer cone diameter? Or was it based on how the human ear hears? I've heard a ton of numbers as to where bass becomes directional, most of it either doesn't include solid data or seems to forget the fact that physics isn't the only thing governing how a woofer sounds.
I personally wouldn't want to run that Audax so low, but I'm surely going to experiment with X-over frequencies when I get my woofers set up and glassed in.

OK, I need to leave this one alone...Brain fart again....The Dayton RS mids I mentioned that was from a completely different post...Duh!!

Anyway, I was not thinking of the Audax mids, as they don't play that low but the B&C mids that I linked.

As far as the point where bass becomes directional......
Just as I have always heard that high frequency sounds are more directional, I heard that bass is omni directional starting at about 250Hz. That is based on human hearing.....But yes it goes with out saying physics can come into play. If you have a panel resonating and buzzing at any bass frequency it will become directional as you are no longer listening to just the fundamental tone.

We have all experienced the effect of "bass upfront". Usually you need a low sub crossover point to achieve it.

T3mpest
01-14-2007, 06:42 PM
The sub up front effect is based on phsyics. However, your wrong in regards to the fact that phsyics isn't the only thing dictating how a sub works, because it is. It's simply too complex to calculate for all parameters. However, on one level your correct, physics is an attempt to describe reality, not the other way around.

Frequencies below 80hz or so, are phsically longer than the car. Becuase of this, you cannot locate the souce of the sound. The wave wont' be within a substantially differenent position no matter where it is. The wave will be either postive and negative on both sides of your head at the same time. Becuase of this, your ears have no phsyical way to tell the difference. Due to the actual nature of this phenonmenon, the bigger your car, theoretically the higher your xo point can be. A rattling panel can quickly ruin this effect though.

The 250hz number, is slightly different (unless your car is 100feet long, then it'll be fine too). Below 300hz or so, a drivers on axis response and off axis response are the same, however, it is localizeable.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-16-2007, 07:51 PM
So I think I found a midbass that would work well with that Audax midrange. Planninig on the B&C NDL51 8" midbass. The mounting depth is only 3.5" deep and it can handle 200 watts @ 8 ohms.

The $125/driver is pretty high but I think it will be worth it.

squeak9798
01-16-2007, 08:27 PM
I listened to those briefly in another forum member's car and wasn't really all that impressed.

Could have been the install/tuning though.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-16-2007, 08:58 PM
I listened to those briefly in another forum member's car and wasn't really all that impressed.

Could have been the install/tuning though.

Really? What didn't you like about them?

squeak9798
01-16-2007, 09:26 PM
From what I listened to of them, I didn't really like the tonality.

But, again, I'll caution that this could have been related to install/tuning issues.

Also, it was a 2-way setup and not a 3-way.

So, I guess take my opinion with a grain of salt.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-16-2007, 10:03 PM
From what I listened to of them, I didn't really like the tonality.

But, again, I'll caution that this could have been related to install/tuning issues.

Also, it was a 2-way setup and not a 3-way.

So, I guess take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Hmm, I think I may just end up trying them. They were speaking pretty good of them over on diymobileaudio and the 3.5" mounting depth is sounding really good. I could maybe get away with a factory door panel...maybe.

T3mpest
01-17-2007, 02:08 AM
Winslow said he heard from someone who whom he trusts that they would be a great high effeciency midbass. That's obviously through the grapevine a bit, but considering who it's coming from, I'd be inclined to believe it. Just remember that B&C rates xmax 2-way, so that's only 4mm instead of 8. You wont' need anything near 200 watts at 8 ohms, 200 at 4 should suffice.

NCHEVYHEVN
01-17-2007, 06:51 AM
Winslow said he heard from someone who whom he trusts that they would be a great high effeciency midbass. That's obviously through the grapevine a bit, but considering who it's coming from, I'd be inclined to believe it. Just remember that B&C rates xmax 2-way, so that's only 4mm instead of 8. You wont' need anything near 200 watts at 8 ohms, 200 at 4 should suffice.

O really. That's good to know than about the power thing. That's gonna help picking out an amp alot easier now. Thanks!!!