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thylantyr
01-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Ancient ABX testing data.

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx.htm

Funny
10 years ago - CD & DA
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_cd.htm

Funnier
ABX - Wire
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

GREAT TEST
ABX - Wondercap vs. Radioshack & 400 Hz. Allpass Filter vs. Straight Wire
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_caps.htm#psacs

This test is awesome. It totally kills audiophile thinking that a minimalist
signal path is superior. There are people who believe that capacitors in
the signal path are bad sounding and they prefer DC coupled stages.

Here's a test where not only did they use resistors and capacitors to make
the 'all pass' network, they really hit a home run by using the worse capacitors
possible for signal path, the ceramic capacitor. In spite of this bad design,
people failed the ABX and could not identify this all pass network vs. a hunk
of wire.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

ABX - ceramic vs. poly cap
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_caps.htm#psacs

The experimenters could not confirm any audible difference between polypropelene and ceramic in many ABX tests under normal conditions.

The condition that produced the above result of a difference was applying a 3.6 Watt heat source next to the capacitors. Even though the capacitor test circuit was not enclosed, with the added heat the ceramics lost capacitance to such an extent that the system's low frequence response was rolled off by 3 dB at 40 Hz.

joetama
01-11-2007, 12:17 AM
Since no one else posted... I will... No one cares about ABX. It's dumb, and really annoying. If it makes you superior to think the way that you do than I am very happy for you because I must just be a dumb **** because I have expensive cables and a $1000 CD Player......

K Thanks, good bye....

Trey803
01-11-2007, 12:19 AM
This could never work b/c different people have different sevsitivities of hearing. Plus in many SQ you have to know what it is you are listening for to actually notice it

joetama
01-11-2007, 12:30 AM
This could never work b/c different people have different sevsitivities of hearing. Plus in many SQ you have to know what it is you are listening for to actually notice it

I agree.... Thy is a DIY-is-better-than-all-Line-Array-anything-corporate-home-audio-is-evil-google-to-find-500000000-articles-from -people-like-him-who-don't-know-everything-but-think-they-do kind of guy... Don't listen to him...

thylantyr
01-11-2007, 02:07 AM
This could never work b/c different people have different sevsitivities of hearing. Plus in many SQ you have to know what it is you are listening for to actually notice it

ABX is a valid test.
http://sound.westhost.com/abx-tester.htm

Either you pass or fail the particular test.

Like a DNA test, you either boned the fat ugly chick and got her pregnant or
didn't. :laugh:

60ndown
01-11-2007, 02:11 AM
ABX is a valid test.
http://sound.westhost.com/abx-tester.htm

Either you pass or fail the particular test.

Like a DNA test, you either boned the fat ugly chick and got her pregnant or
didn't. :laugh:

guilty:yumyum:

it was 25 years ago and i still think about her.

joetama
01-11-2007, 02:16 AM
ABX is a valid test.
http://sound.westhost.com/abx-tester.htm

Either you pass or fail the particular test.

Like a DNA test, you either boned the fat ugly chick and got her pregnant or
didn't. :laugh:

But audio isn't black and white, right and wrong. SO how can you have a test based on one or the other...

ABX just proves that audio isn't 100% not that something doesn't sound better than something else. All you band wagoners run around saying that cheap audio sounds just as good as expensive because it's what you believe and you think it proves it. Well, I don't believe it and I don't think it proves it. And obviously a lot of others don't think it proves anything either....

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 09:19 AM
I agree.... Thy is a DIY-is-better-than-all-Line-Array-anything-corporate-home-audio-is-evil-google-to-find-500000000-articles-from -people-like-him-who-don't-know-everything-but-think-they-do kind of guy... Don't listen to him...Same could be said for Elite blowhards making themselves feel better about their absurd purchases type of guy. I like to listen to both and meet the 2 views in the middle, which is where the truth is on nearly everything.

joetama
01-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Same could be said for Elite blowhards making themselves feel better about their absurd purchases type of guy. I like to listen to both and meet the 2 views in the middle, which is where the truth is on nearly everything.

True... But, there really are none here on this forum and they don't harp on that same "do this do this do this do this" type thing...

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 10:35 AM
True... But, there really are none here on this forum and they don't harp on that same "do this do this do this do this" type thing...

This is the type of elitist thinking I mean.


Well believe what you want. But, you get what you pay for. You pay more and might not know what they do, but you can hear it. If you can't hear the difference (which some can't)... Hhahaha... Then good for YOU. BUT OBVIOUSLY others can (adam71, Beat, and myself), otherwise everyone would have a line array and a cheap $100 player and just own CD's.

K thanks that is all.....
That is an elitists justifying his absurd purchases. These "others" are merely affected by placebo. They don't posess super human hearing of some kind. Of course I do believe you get what you pay for. That is true, to an extent. There gets a point where you reach diminishing returns though and in real world environments the differences are inaudible. You and everyone else saying that an overpriced cable makes a difference in your ear is fooling themselves to feel better. Just as he always says DIY is the way to go, because it makes him feel better. You 2 are one in the same, just at different ends of the spectrum IMO.

adam71
01-11-2007, 11:26 AM
That is an elitists justifying his absurd purchases. These "others" are merely affected by placebo. They don't posess super human hearing of some kind. Of course I do believe you get what you pay for.

Wait just one second there bro. I am not affected by placebo. I have tried different brands on many different occasions. I've owned cheap stuff and mid-level priced stuff. I don't own really HIGHEND stuff because in my opinion its NOT worth it TO ME. I've fallen for the high priced cable trick before and never will again. I still have a $200 1 meter pair of monster cable rca interconnects that I bought 10 years ago. They're nice cables but I shouldn't have paid that much for them. Whether they sound BETTER than the cheaper cables or not is irrelevant. The fact is they sound DIFFERENT than the cheap cables and that DIFFERENT sound is what I like. Unfortunately now I have a Denon receiver and Denon universal disc player that connect via DENON LINK and I don't really need analog interconnects anymore.

My point is this. When I bought these Denon units I wasn't thinking "hey these will make my DVD movies and music sound better than anything I've ever heard". What I was thinking is that now I have a well built and long lasting set of components that are semi future proof and would sound GREAT. I have HDMI outputs on the DVD player and I have multi channel analog inputs for future surround formats. I'm not a spring chicken and I know what I'm hearing when I turn on my receiver at the end of a hard work day. So please don't call me an idiot that is falling for the placebo effect. I know you didn't use the word idiot but you might as well have.

In closing, you and anyone else can tell me til you're blue in the face that $1300 was too much to pay for a universal player and $1000 was too much for my receiver. In the end it was what I thought was the best value for my money and would last the longest in doing so. I've had these units almost 2 years now and couldn't be happier with them. In the end isn't that what matters most??

Sorry for writing a book but I had to express my means of thinking.

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 11:37 AM
I don't own really HIGHEND stuff because in my opinion its NOT worth it TO ME. .
It isn't worth it to anyone, PERIOD. All justifications to the contrary are illusions created by a need to make you feel good about your purchase. I already said I agree you get what you pay for, just not to the level of people who spend stupid amounts of many do. Cables being my biggest pet peeve.

adam71
01-11-2007, 11:47 AM
It isn't worth it to anyone, PERIOD. All justifications to the contrary are illusions created by a need to make you feel good about your purchase.

You wanna talk about an elitist attitude, you're displaying one right now. You're trying to say that spending more than what YOU DEEM worth spending on audio gear isn't worth it. Thats a blanket statement that makes no sense. That is what people who don't want to spend more say to make themselves feel good. Everyone has different tastes and different income levels. What seems worth it to one will not to someone else. But you can't say its NOT worth it to anyone PERIOD, thats just plain BS.

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 12:15 PM
You wanna talk about an elitist attitude, you're displaying one right now. You're trying to say that spending more than what YOU DEEM worth spending on audio gear isn't worth it. Thats a blanket statement that makes no sense. That is what people who don't want to spend more say to make themselves feel good. Everyone has different tastes and different income levels. What seems worth it to one will not to someone else. But you can't say its NOT worth it to anyone PERIOD, thats just plain BS.

No, I have no problem with people being happy spending more. By all means do so. I just don't like hearing those people talk about how superior the sound is when I know there is no audibly measurable difference in real world application. The ABX tests showcase that fact.


I also agree that DIY is hardly the answer to everything. In fact for MOST of the world it is the wrong answer.

adam71
01-11-2007, 12:19 PM
No, I have no problem with people being happy spending more. By all means do so. I just don't like hearing those people talk about how superior the sound is when I know there is no audibly measurable difference in real world application. The ABX tests showcase that fact.

**** those tests, those guys are just a bunch of blow hards themselves. Real world application is what you make of it. Not to take the opinions of those know it alls.

My only little beef with you was saying that I fell for the placebo effect when in fact I hadn't. Other than that I have no problem with your opinion as it also holds true.

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 12:26 PM
**** those tests, those guys are just a bunch of blow hards themselves. Real world application is what you make of it. Not to take the opinions of those know it alls.

My only little beef with you was saying that I fell for the placebo effect when in fact I hadn't. Other than that I have no problem with your opinion as it also holds true.
Can ABX tests throw false positives? Yes, but overall they're are usually on target. EVERY source should be taken with a grain of salt. Thats why I said in my original post that its best to read and disect all sources including your own findings in order to make an educated choice.

adam71
01-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Can ABX tests throw false positives? Yes, but overall they're are usually on target. EVERY source should be taken with a grain of salt. Thats why I said in my original post that its best to read and disect all sources including your own findings in order to make an educated choice.

Agreed.

Beat_Dominator
01-11-2007, 01:03 PM
One only need listen to a few properly set up systems to be able to hear differences. You need to be open minded as well. Whether you are willing to be open minded, that's up to you.

Are there diminishing returns? Of course, but the level that these set in at will be different for everyone.

Are cables a huge rip-off? Of course; there are higher qualities for sure, as well as small companies that need a lot of margin to stay in business..... but it has been shown that more $$ does not always improve a given system.

Trey803
01-11-2007, 01:08 PM
If you have never taken a psychology class class and learned basic principles for conducting a correlation study then you need to shut up. Maybe their tests did result in a positive correlation but does it mean anything......NO.

joetama
01-11-2007, 01:53 PM
Well, basic point is ABX = BS.

People hear what they want to hear, if you believe something doesn't make a difference than it won't if you believe it will than it will. It's not "placebo" because it does make a difference it's your mind if you want to notice that difference or not. Cables DO sound different, that different sound may be better it may be worse. Same thing with any electronic component, Amp, Receiver, Processor, CD player, DVD Player, Turn Table, ETC ETC...

You may think that I am an Elite attitude person (I do own some Pioneer Elite stuff haha) but audio is subjective. But, there are some basic rights and wrongs. And, the thing that I get angered about is when people throw out blanket statements about stuff. I know what I like, and so I recommend it. But, I don't push information down people's throats saying I'm right because I have a mastery of google. Not everyone needs a big DIY system. I believe that if I had enough time to put together my own DIY it would be better than anything else, but I have a busy life and don't have time to do that. So, I buy things that have had the engineering put into them that I do not have the time or tools to do.

That is all.....

Beat_Dominator
01-11-2007, 01:55 PM
P.S. B&W_EE is a poopy head.

thylantyr
01-11-2007, 01:56 PM
People don't understand what ABX can do for you.

For someone interested in audio whether newbie or advanced, it will show
you how to prioritize the items in your audio system and allow you to
put the big dollars where it counts. ABX removes audio myths and educates
a person properly. ABX teaches you where the priorities of audio are.

You can can choose to ignore it if you want, nobody cares. People who want
to expand their knowledge will take a look at it.

* ABX will show you that good low cost cables do the job as well as esoteric cables.

* ABX will show you that the signal path of electronics doesn't need to minimalist in design.

* ABX shows you how to choose power amplification.

* ABX shows you how important a speaker plays in audio reproduction.

the list goes on ... etc...

People fear ABX because they don't want to learn the truth about audio,
they are very happy in the world of fantasy playing World of Warcraft
killing mobs with their uber character.

I don't care if you love your $5000 CD player or $50k tube amp, feel free to
enjoy it, but there are plenty of people in the world who really want to
know what is going on. There is no magic in audio, it's all simple science
and no manufacturer is immune to those laws of engineering product.

If you love being anti-ABX, then this forum is sweet for you to participate in.
Birds of the same feather flock together.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86

Beat_Dominator
01-11-2007, 01:58 PM
:rolleyes: how very noble of you thy....

adam71
01-11-2007, 01:59 PM
So, I buy things that have had the engineering put into them that I do not have the time or tools to do.

Especially those speakers.:yumyum: I'm not sure when but I have heard enough of those to know that B&W are my next speakers. Probably the 600 series.

joetama
01-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Especially those speakers.:yumyum: I'm not sure when but I have heard enough of those to know that B&W are my next speakers. Probably the 600 series.

Try to swing the money up to the CM series... It's a nice blend between normal speaker construction and the 700 series....

Very clear and translucent...

joetama
01-11-2007, 02:03 PM
P.S. B&W_EE is a poopy head.

I <3 U BEAT_DOM!

adam71
01-11-2007, 02:14 PM
Try to swing the money up to the CM series... It's a nice blend between normal speaker construction and the 700 series....

Very clear and translucent...

They don't look too bad but I don't think I would like front firing surrounds. But who says I have to go with that series surrounds.??

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 02:16 PM
If you have never taken a psychology class class and learned basic principles for conducting a correlation study then you need to shut up. Maybe their tests did result in a positive correlation but does it mean anything......NO.

Who the **** hasn't taken a Psych class or 2?

Even if I hadn't, it has no bearing on whether my oppinions and observations are valid.

Go diddle yourself.

adam71
01-11-2007, 02:22 PM
This is the setup I was wanting to go with.

Sub.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20ASW%20650

Surrounds

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/MODEL%20DS6%20S3

Mains

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20DM602%20S3

Center

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20LCR600%20S3

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Good stuff, but I would still need my IB sub :)

adam71
01-11-2007, 02:42 PM
Good stuff, but I would still need my IB sub :)

IB ?? Infinite baffle?? OR what is that??

IamDeMan
01-11-2007, 03:28 PM
IB ?? Infinite baffle?? OR what is that??Yes infinite baffle. I have 8 15" drivers manifold mounted in my attic. I love the IB sound.

joetama
01-11-2007, 09:38 PM
I have never heard thos dipole speakers.... But the 600 Series is very nice sounding for sure.

Also, demo the subs. The only think I don't like about B&W is their lower end subs. For the money MartinLogan or others are a little better....

T3mpest
01-13-2007, 12:48 AM
abx and double blind testing are great for all kinds of things, like curing diseases, to take that one step further. It's part of the cause for arguably every major advancement of human knowledge in the last 150 years (it's all part of the scientific method). For some people, if we use it to test a persons hearing, well it's useless. To say you can hear convince yourself of anything is quite true, to use it to dismiss an ABX test is ignorant. The entire point of the test is you dont' know what your actually listening to. Your simply forced to judge what you hear based on that alone, the sounds that you actually hear. Not the names on the box, not the pricetag, or what a scientist told you it's should sound like. ABx testing is about as real world as it gets, like it or not. It eliminates all the other variables and actually allows you to test what's truly relevant.

joetama
01-13-2007, 01:39 AM
abx and double blind testing are great for all kinds of things, like curing diseases, to take that one step further. It's part of the cause for arguably every major advancement of human knowledge in the last 150 years (it's all part of the scientific method). For some people, if we use it to test a persons hearing, well it's useless. To say you can hear convince yourself of anything is quite true, to use it to dismiss an ABX test is ignorant. The entire point of the test is you dont' know what your actually listening to. Your simply forced to judge what you hear based on that alone, the sounds that you actually hear. Not the names on the box, not the pricetag, or what a scientist told you it's should sound like. ABx testing is about as real world as it gets, like it or not. It eliminates all the other variables and actually allows you to test what's truly relevant.


Real world as it gets is setting for hours and hours and listening and picking apart the weaknesses. People are tolerant to things, let's use the weather for example. When it is summer time 60 feels cold and when it is winter time 60 feel crazy warm. So, my point of this is as you listen to something for periods of time you begin to stop listening to the overall great sound and find the weak points. So, in a ABX session lets say you listen 15 minutes to A, then 15 minutes to B, then go back and forth randomly between A&B. Because of the short amounts of time and because listening to something else changes the tolerances of your hearing there would be no way to distinctly pick between the two. If you could listen to them both at the same time (which you can't) for the exact amount of time at with the same material you would defiantly for sure be able to tell things apart. But, since you can't do that we will never know for sure.

I don't see how a experiment with sound could be compared to years of technological advancement and medical technology. In most scientific experiments either something is different or not, and in many cases electronic equipment is used to measure this change. BUT, in a Sound ABX testing electronic equipment can not be used (and it is obvious why). I am not saying in ABX is totally flawed BUT, the way that these tests are setup is why people always fail.

thylantyr
01-13-2007, 03:33 AM
BUT, the way that these tests are setup is why people always fail.

Always fail ? lol

My first post on this thread.. -> http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx.htm

Did you read it ?

Here's a distortion ABX where if you start to exceed 3% distortion it
becomes audible and people passed.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_dist.htm

Here's more tests that people passed.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_f4.htm
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_spk.htm
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

etc.

Why do you assume everyone fails an ABX test? You don't even know
what is being tested to make that claim.

joetama
01-13-2007, 07:12 AM
BUT, the way that these tests are setup is why people always fail.

Always fail ? lol

My first post on this thread.. -> http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx.htm (http://www.provide.net/%7Edjcarlst/abx.htm)

Did you read it ?

Here's a distortion ABX where if you start to exceed 3% distortion it
becomes audible and people passed.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_dist.htm (http://www.provide.net/%7Edjcarlst/abx_dist.htm)

Here's more tests that people passed.
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_f4.htm (http://www.provide.net/%7Edjcarlst/abx_f4.htm)
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_spk.htm (http://www.provide.net/%7Edjcarlst/abx_spk.htm)
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm (http://www.provide.net/%7Edjcarlst/abx_phca.htm)

etc.

Why do you assume everyone fails an ABX test? You don't even know
what is being tested to make that claim.

Let me reword myself then.

The way a lot of ABX tests are setup; small differences, usually below 3% THD, are not noticed because the listener does not have the time to develop a tolerance to the system and with the changing of systems the listenerís tolerance changes thus making it even more difficult to pick out differences over a short period of time. Consequently, this is the reason that most people fail when the THD is below 3%. Now, some tests people will pass because the difference in the sound is a very obvious one. Also, did you look at your "sample" group on some of those tests. 1 person isn't a very good sample group.

IamDeMan
01-13-2007, 07:34 AM
poppycock

thylantyr
01-13-2007, 01:52 PM
Let me reword myself then.

The way a lot of ABX tests are setup; small differences, usually below 3% THD, are not noticed because the listener does not have the time to develop a tolerance to the system and with the changing of systems the listenerís tolerance changes thus making it even more difficult to pick out differences over a short period of time. Consequently, this is the reason that most people fail when the THD is below 3%. Now, some tests people will pass because the difference in the sound is a very obvious one. Also, did you look at your "sample" group on some of those tests. 1 person isn't a very good sample group.

no

The human ear is not a precision instrument like an electronic measuring device.... unless yer Superman and live in the world of fantasy.

:sword: :wallbash:

joetama
01-13-2007, 10:38 PM
no

The human ear is not a precision instrument like an electronic measuring device.... unless yer Superman and live in the world of fantasy.

:sword: :wallbash:

Superman's a weirdo... I mean who the hell wears a cape!

T3mpest
01-15-2007, 03:24 PM
Let me reword myself then.

The way a lot of ABX tests are setup; small differences, usually below 3% THD, are not noticed because the listener does not have the time to develop a tolerance to the system and with the changing of systems the listener’s tolerance changes thus making it even more difficult to pick out differences over a short period of time. Consequently, this is the reason that most people fail when the THD is below 3%. Now, some tests people will pass because the difference in the sound is a very obvious one. Also, did you look at your "sample" group on some of those tests. 1 person isn't a very good sample group.

want to guess how long your auditory memory last, like what is considered "long term"? It's been tested, and lets just say if your not switching things out pretty fast, you're more than likely not going to be able to pick out small differences.

Anyway, what I was referring to was the scientific method. Only changing the 1 variable you want to test in a controlled environment. This method, is the spirit of ABX testing and is the driving force of human achievement in the past 200 years or so. Say what you will, if you can't tell the difference between test tones switching back and forth continuously, with amount of distortion added, your not going to hear ti when it takes 30 seconds to change things around on music. Even if you did, in the "real world" you'd be changing alot more than just the THD.

If it makes you feel any better, people who are psychic don't believe in controlled experiments either.

joetama
01-15-2007, 03:53 PM
want to guess how long your auditory memory last, like what is considered "long term"? It's been tested, and lets just say if your not switching things out pretty fast, you're more than likely not going to be able to pick out small differences.

Anyway, what I was referring to was the scientific method. Only changing the 1 variable you want to test in a controlled environment. This method, is the spirit of ABX testing and is the driving force of human achievement in the past 200 years or so. Say what you will, if you can't tell the difference between test tones switching back and forth continuously, with amount of distortion added, your not going to hear ti when it takes 30 seconds to change things around on music. Even if you did, in the "real world" you'd be changing alot more than just the THD.

If it makes you feel any better, people who are psychic don't believe in controlled experiments either.

3 minutes 54 seconds 32 milliseconds? Am I close.. :up2somet:

Oh and I am psychic... Maybe it was psycho, spelling is so close you know....

thylantyr
01-15-2007, 04:43 PM
A switch box only takes a fraction of a second to switch - unless it was designed
differently.