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View Full Version : Gather 'round the campfire, new project is a brewin' *56k, yeah right*



PV Audio
01-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Okay y'all, new speaker time. Last go around (at least that I posted) was the tang band 871s 50.5" towers. This time, we've got something a little more conservative.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7039/dt7jr1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Semi-D'Appolito two way tower. Using the Dayton Reference Series 7" woofer, and the dayton dc28fs-8 tweeter (I'd link you, but my internet is being fixed as I type). Finishing is still up in the air, I probably won't do any sort of nice finish if I'm not 100% satisfied with them. X-overs are done (you'll see them later), and I'm going out to cut my wood right now. More pics later tonight.

-Dave

baseballer1100
01-02-2007, 05:29 PM
Woot!

scotsman
01-02-2007, 05:30 PM
sounds nice, subscribed

j3bus2k3
01-02-2007, 05:32 PM
Wanna build 2 extra? I'll order the drivers for you...;)

ballstothewall
01-02-2007, 07:23 PM
Got baffle step?? :)


You should like those Dayton 7"s though.

PV Audio
01-02-2007, 07:53 PM
More pics coming by 10 tonight. Got the cuts finished, going to start building. The only problem I'm seeing thus far is that the woofers are so large that I really can't add much bracing to the inside. I have one shelf brace below the last woofer and above the port, but I can't fit another one anywhere else :crap: Any suggestions? I had to make it less deep (12" deep instead of 14") as well, so now the tuning is about 6 hz higher than what it was before, but since the original was tuned too low, it should be alright.

And yes, I do got baffle step. It seems that the entire reference series line is being plagued. :D

ballstothewall
01-02-2007, 08:03 PM
Whats it tuned to?

You could brace between the top woofer and the tweeter, tweeter and the woofer, and then under the woofer if you wanna get carried away...

joetama
01-02-2007, 09:12 PM
Looks interesting... Daytons are nice speakers for the money...

Also, make sure that your port isn't more than 1/2 wavelength of the highest freq on the low-freq drivers away from the port.

CAMSHAFT
01-02-2007, 09:15 PM
Good luck. Looks interesting.....

PV Audio
01-02-2007, 09:17 PM
It's tuned to 50 something, I left my flash drive downstairs. The bookshelf speaks I made with the 5" version tuned to 63hz sounded absolutely phenomenal, wish I wouldn't have sold those :(

Resizing and uploading pics now.

PV Audio
01-02-2007, 09:36 PM
BTW, these cones are going to be flush mounted, don't get the wrong idea from the model...it's just a mockup :)

Also, theoretically, wouldn't having the speakers randomly scattered horizontally provide a better sound? I know that you can cut down on diffraction by having them off center (note what I did with the tweeter, although that's the least important driver for this topic :( ), but what about a diagonal line across? Considering that the baffle is only 7.5" wide and I'm not going to round the outside edges (I've never noticed a difference anyway), I'm not too concerned. But in theory, would doing that make a difference?

Anyway, pic time.

The woofer (one of four):
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1500/IMG_0302.jpg

The tweet:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/176/IMG_0303.jpg

My ghetto crossovers. NOTE: DO NOT BUY THESE PCBs. THEY ARE AWFUL. Seriously. The holes are tinned probably the worst that I've ever seen. If you don't know what that means, it means that it's next to impossible to solder the components down. Someone link me to something better, I might as well be soldering to a cucumber:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9497/IMG_0305.jpg
First order Butterwork filter, L-Pad on tweeter, 3 dB attenuation. I've never used a 1st order, only 2nd and 4th order, so we'll see how it goes. Took alot shorter time :)

Started:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4714/IMG_0310.jpg
Had a problem with my fence, I'm sending it out to get calibrated. The stupid POS was off by 1/16 from the tape measurer (the clamp caused it to move over 1/16 before it set firm). Oh well, you win some and ya lose some.

Down tha hatch 1:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/448/IMG_0313.jpg

Aaand numero 2:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/647/IMG_0312.jpg

That's it, I'll try and have these guys finished within a decent amount of time. Bought a new router bit too (new straight bit), so we'll see how that turns out as well.

PowerNaudio
01-03-2007, 01:57 AM
looking good so far.
for the xovers have you though about just buy the pcb boards and making the traces your self it will look more professional that way. here is a link for a store with good prices, http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p55.htm im sure you can find it cheaper on ebay or something.

96civ
01-03-2007, 03:23 AM
Is there a tutorial on how to make x-overs? That sounds 100% noobish, but oh well.

Eugenics
01-03-2007, 03:43 AM
these aren't going to take you months to finish like the last ones are they? because i'll click unsubscribe right now. i swear.

PowerNaudio
01-03-2007, 06:33 AM
Is there a tutorial on how to make x-overs? That sounds 100% noobish, but oh well.

this should get you started. (http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover2.html)

or this (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=Designing+Passive+Crossovers&btnG=Search)

PV Audio
01-03-2007, 09:29 AM
these aren't going to take you months to finish like the last ones are they? because i'll click unsubscribe right now. i swear.
No, haha, you have to remember that was six speakers plus painting...during the school year. These should be done within a decent amount of time.

PV Audio
01-03-2007, 09:34 AM
looking good so far.
for the xovers have you though about just buy the pcb boards and making the traces your self it will look more professional that way. here is a link for a store with good prices, http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p55.htm im sure you can find it cheaper on ebay or something.
Man, that looks incredibly advanced for me, plus, I haven't the faintest idea as to what I'd be doing. Basically, I want a undrilled breadboard where I can drill my holes, and then basically put in my components and trace the connections and solder the components down. Know what I mean?

PowerNaudio
01-03-2007, 10:07 AM
yeah i know what youre saying. i have done both since i have built audio amplifiers in the past. and have found that making your own pcboards is the best way to go and really they are not as complicated as they seem to be. im sure youll get it right on your first try.

but i think mouser electronics sells the boards that youre looking for.

PV Audio
01-03-2007, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the tip, lookin now :)

96civ
01-04-2007, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96civ
Is there a tutorial on how to make x-overs? That sounds 100% noobish, but oh well.


this should get you started.

or this
That site helped out a lot thanks, but the component table on the site showing the farads and henries with respective to impedance and order is very blurry does anyone have that same list that I could have?

PowerNaudio
01-04-2007, 06:10 AM
That site helped out a lot thanks, but the component table on the site showing the farads and henries with respective to impedance and order is very blurry does anyone have that same list that I could have?

there is this 1 (http://ccs.exl.info/calc_cr.html)
and this 2 (http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm)
this 3 (http://www.kbapps.com/audio/speakerdesign/calculators/xover3way.html)
this 4 (http://www.kbapps.com/audio/speakerdesign/calculators/xover2way.html)

or this 5 (http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/targetgen/pcdc.htm)

last but not least (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=passive+crossover+design&btnG=Google+Search)

PV Audio
01-04-2007, 02:26 PM
Or if that's still too confusing for you...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-669&raid=43&rak=248-669

Active is always a nice way to go :)

thylantyr
01-04-2007, 03:41 PM
Or if that's still too confusing for you...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-669&raid=43&rak=248-669

Active is always a nice way to go :)

This is the best tool for the money. $250
People spend big money on woodworking tools, why not $250 on
an audio tool? /hehe

This will teach you more about audio in 1 month than other people learn
in years doing it the harder way.

In theory, you can prototype a system using the DCX and figure out
the best slope and crossover frequency for that design by doing listening
tests vs. software modeling provided that you are building a system to sound good
to the listener vs. being technical correct as technically correct won't guarantee satisfaction.

Then........ take those DCX parameters and build your passive crossover
and you will be in a good ballpark.

But the typical passive crossover won't have the extra goodies also found in
the DCX like delays and fancy EQ, etc.

GemaRastem
01-04-2007, 03:54 PM
hey, I have one of those. Was going to use it in my next system, but can't decide if I want to spend the money anymore :(. I might be selling mine soon if anybody is interested.

on another note, the speakers look decent, but I would consider rounding the baffle edges.

96civ
01-04-2007, 04:20 PM
Or if that's still too confusing for you...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...43&rak=248-669

That's the epitome of ****...

PV, that setup you're making looks tight as h3ll. I'm planning on doing something similar with the tower box and similar speakers. What are you going to use to amp your speakers, cuz I've looked through partsexpress and the amps are either way too expensive or not powerful enough to push the daytons?

Even though it'd be a better option to go active, especially with the x-over listed above, I'm going the DIY way due to cost. How do you solder components together using a PCB board? I've never done it and I was thinking about going into Radioshack to ask, but those guys are morons.

ballstothewall
01-04-2007, 05:17 PM
Active is always a nice way to go :)

True, but the total of over 1k in equipment (easily over 1k) kinda drives people away from a full active setup....

*I love my active*

thylantyr
01-04-2007, 06:36 PM
True, but the total of over 1k in equipment (easily over 1k) kinda drives people away from a full active setup....

*I love my active*

Cost $50 for a pair of generic Dayton 2nd order crossovers, $90 for
3 ways.

Lets say you build your own crossover and used > 2nd order, lets say
you wanted 4th order or even 8th order. It's easy to spend more than
$250 on a passive crossover only good for one design.

If you only build one loudspeaker for yourself ever, the passive vs. active
crossover is probably equal in cost as you can buy old school analog active ones
for about $100. The extra cost incurred by active is the extra amp channels you need.
There are some low cost amps on the market that make active attractive.

If you upgrade your old speaker and build another, discarding the old one,
there is no additional cost as you will reuse the DCX, but need to spend more
coin on a new passive crossover. /hehe

If you build speakers for other people for profit, passive is better so you
can make money on the passive crossover design and markup the costs of
the parts you buy for them. /harr harr

ballstothewall
01-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Another problem wiht active is that if you go to sell them, not many people can power them, to listen to them somewhere else you have to move all the f'ing equipment, etc, etc. But I do believe the advantages outweight the cost, hence I have active. *currently*

PV Audio
01-08-2007, 10:26 PM
That's the epitome of ****...

PV, that setup you're making looks tight as h3ll. I'm planning on doing something similar with the tower box and similar speakers. What are you going to use to amp your speakers, cuz I've looked through partsexpress and the amps are either way too expensive or not powerful enough to push the daytons?

Even though it'd be a better option to go active, especially with the x-over listed above, I'm going the DIY way due to cost. How do you solder components together using a PCB board? I've never done it and I was thinking about going into Radioshack to ask, but those guys are morons.
Man, I'm just using an old integrated amplifier my grandfather gave me. I honestly have no money to spend on audio at the moment (well, amplifiers should I say), and you can drop money faster buying a pre-amp than you can a subwoofer, so I'll stick to the IA for now. I DO want to get a phono stage some time soon, but that'll have to wait as well. :)

True, but the total of over 1k in equipment (easily over 1k) kinda drives people away from a full active setup....

*I love my active*
It is kinda expensive. :laugh:

PV Audio
01-08-2007, 10:33 PM
And no, do NOT go to the rat shack for soldering advice. That's where I made my mistake. On a PC board, you have holes that are surrounded by a ring of tin or copper, and what you want to do is, stick the metal sticks from the components through the holes, touch the soldering tip to the component AND the hole (heat the connection, NOT the solder), and slowly feed the solder into it. If done right, it'll be nice and shiny and form a kind of pyramid. If it's grey and rough, it's called a cold solder joint, and you don't want that. Just use solder with flux in it, it's too **** hard otherwise. I like the Dayton silver solder on PE.

96civ
01-08-2007, 11:17 PM
And no, do NOT go to the rat shack for soldering advice. That's where I made my mistake. On a PC board, you have holes that are surrounded by a ring of tin or copper, and what you want to do is, stick the metal sticks from the components through the holes, touch the soldering tip to the component AND the hole (heat the connection, NOT the solder), and slowly feed the solder into it. If done right, it'll be nice and shiny and form a kind of pyramid. If it's grey and rough, it's called a cold solder joint, and you don't want that. Just use solder with flux in it, it's too **** hard otherwise. I like the Dayton silver solder on PE.
OK, I have some rosin core solder which I think has flux in it... I'll have to check on that. How exactly are the components connected on a PC board, through the copper lines or do you have to attach the leads to wire?

PV Audio
01-08-2007, 11:27 PM
If you have already traced your circuit, then it's just solder and go. Since the breadboards I got were absolute mierda, i had to use some jumper wires. They are thin and cheap, but get the job done. I'm just hoping my shitbox X-overs don't hold the speaker back.

thylantyr
01-09-2007, 01:39 AM
Prototyping Board {printed circuit board} comes in many different designs.
It's pretty expensive actually and you can use a cheaper method to wire up
crossovers.

Protoboards [simple to complex].

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=237-0119&SEARCH=&ID=&DESC=8000%2D45&R=237%2D0119&sid=45A2DB004273E17F

1. The circuit board typically FR4 material with pre-drilled holes. Hole size varies
per design, and hole center to center spacing is typically 100 mils. The cheap
board has no copper pads so when you install a component, there is nothing to
solder the lead to. The only way to make this work nice is to glue each component
to the PCB so it won't fall off. Kinda stinks if you have to modify your design later.

2. The good PCB is where there is a copper pad around the hole so you can
solder the component lead to it as it secures the component in place so it
doesn't fall off the board.

3. The next type of PCB is where they put a pad on both sides of the PCB and
plate through the hole so there is electrical connection between the top and bottom side pads. Do you need this? No really but it cost more.

4. They also make esoteric protoboards with buss bars where a group of pads
are all connected together electrically to form a common bus. For instance,
you can use this as a power and ground buss. Once you solder the parts to
the bus, no additional wiring is needed as the pcb has the bus trace.

5. They also make other weird protoboards so beware of what you buy.

DIY PCB

One cheap way to make your own circuit on a PCB is to get some copper
clad board, ink resist pen, and some etchant. You do some preliminary parts
placement on the board and estimate where the component holes will be
and draw a solid pad using the pen. Draw a pad much bigger than the hole
size that you plan to drill later. Draw all the component holes. Then
draw the circuit with the pen connecting the dots according to the schematic.
Draw thick traces. Etch the board. Drill the component pads. Install the parts,
solder. /done

The fancy way to do this is using rub on decals or you do the design on
a computer and transfer the design to the copper clad board or have a fab
house build your custom board [not cheap].

DIY non PCB

Get some thin hardwood {masonite} 1/8" if you can find it. Mount your parts,
drill some holes, use tie wraps or glue to hold the parts in place. Point to point
wiring.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Optimo_bestanden/image050.jpg

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/HATT-III_bestanden/image024.jpg

Whatever method you choose, SQ will not be affected.

ballstothewall
01-09-2007, 10:34 AM
If I get my MTM's done before you, you are officially slow as hell.... Just an FYI...

PV Audio
01-10-2007, 07:17 AM
Ah, but I am in school 5 days a week, plus I'm almost always in south bend every saturday, then I do my homework on sunday. ;)

ballstothewall
01-10-2007, 11:31 AM
Ah, but I am in school 5 days a week, plus I'm almost always in south bend every saturday, then I do my homework on sunday. ;)

I work full time when I'm at home ya know... What do you do in the evening, thats the time when the stuff starts happenin in the woodshop...

Oh and yea, your slow.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/balls_to_the_wall/Digital%20Multi%20Meter/P1010105.jpg

PV Audio
01-10-2007, 03:33 PM
I'm extremely slow when it comes to my own work, but if it's for a customer, there's a 1-3 day turnaround. :)

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 01:26 AM
Okay, preliminary work is finished, time to cut the recesses tomorrow and have a listen!

Pics later.

1loudsuv
01-13-2007, 01:59 AM
Okay, preliminary work is finished, time to cut the recesses tomorrow and have a listen!

Pics later.

dont keep us waiting or else :p:

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 11:41 AM
My braces have nice roundovers on them, so I'm wondering, fellow ca.com 'ers, should I round over the sides of the baffle?

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 08:48 PM
To keep things short, these are the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. Arrogant or not, these were to try to replicate the sound of the Definitive bipolar towers, but at a fraction of the cost. I wouldn't even think about those after hearing these things. Detail is ASTOUNDING, the bass is mindblowing (first speakers I've ever had where I don't even want a sub), and they just melt into the room. Now, there is a problem. The top woofer on the right speaker has a rubbing voice coil. The cone doesn't even move smoothly when I push on it, it sounds like you're clearing your throat or scraping ice off the freezer. I can even see it misaligned when I look around the phase plug. No matter, another one is on the way (well, at least ordered). Pics don't slow down shipping, however. :)

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/792/IMG_0328.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5168/IMG_0331.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4707/IMG_0333.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/663/IMG_0335.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4050/IMG_0341.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5392/IMG_0342.jpg

Would like to note that this is the first, well, first successful time that I've done a flush mounting of the speakers, and I must say that I am very impressed, but tired. There has to be an easier way than what I was doing. I used my plunge base with the Jasper jig, set the depth of the recess using a ruler and eyeballing it, then did about 3 successively smaller circles until I got down to the cutout width. Oh well, at least it was fun. Comments are welcomed, criticisms even more so, and I'll have a REAL review once I have a working speaker.

saywhat?
01-13-2007, 08:58 PM
i love how you took a chunk out of the tweeter mounting area. nice.

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 09:01 PM
Im really really jealous I want to do a ht setup real bad.

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 09:03 PM
i love how you took a chunk out of the tweeter mounting area. nice.

I hope that's sarcasm because that was done for a reason. When you flush mount, you need to clear an area for the terminals to go through. Look on any flush mounted tweeter and you'll see the same.

saywhat?
01-13-2007, 09:04 PM
stop making excuses lol.

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 09:05 PM
These going to be painted?

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 09:08 PM
stop making excuses lol.

http://www.vikash.info/audio/orion/

http://www.vikash.info/audio/orion/images/orion_01.jpg
.
.
.
.
http://www.vikash.info/audio/orion/images/speakermount03.jpg

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 09:09 PM
These going to be painted?
I'm really not sure yet, I just wanted to see how they sounded before I spend weeks painting. To be quite honest, after hearing them I couldn't care less how they look.

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 09:10 PM
I can paint them for you. :)

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 09:12 PM
Haha, thanks, but I'd have to prep them for pre-painting (meaning sanding exactly flush, filling screw heads, etc), and I have no desire to do that just to make them potentially look worse if something goes wrong.

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 09:14 PM
Its waiting to paint your ****. lol
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/baseballer2030/CIMG1121.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/baseballer2030/CIMG1122.jpg

PowerNaudio
01-13-2007, 09:15 PM
for flush mounting why don't you get a wider bit. it'll take you less times around.
unless your router can take the 1/2 collet.

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 09:33 PM
It has a .5" collet, but the Jasper is calibrated for a .25" bit. I COULD go by the circle markings alone, but I want to know that I indeed did mark the circle properly when I set the bit down. :)

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 09:36 PM
Pv do you make x-overs?

PV Audio
01-13-2007, 11:04 PM
Yes, I do make crossovers. Why?

baseballer1100
01-13-2007, 11:07 PM
****. Well i dunno i want to do a ht setup bad.

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 12:37 AM
Then do one. :)

joetama
01-14-2007, 12:46 AM
Those look really good.... FOR ME TO POOP ON!

No, but seriously they don't look bad. I would be very interested to run some 20 to 20 tests impedance and response wise...

Oh, and the bass response should be enough with those huge *** ports you used!

QtrHorse
01-14-2007, 12:53 AM
Why not make the tweeters opposite on both cabinets so they look like there supposed to or was that just a mistake?

joetama
01-14-2007, 12:55 AM
Why not make the tweeters opposite on both cabinets so they look like there supposed to or was that just a mistake?

I was thinking that too.... But if he is going to put grills on them it really doesn't make too much of a difference. I don't like the look MTM setup anyway so an off centered tweeter to me looks stupid..... ;):D:rolleyes::up2somet:

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 01:03 AM
Why not make the tweeters opposite on both cabinets so they look like there supposed to or was that just a mistake?
Because it doesn't matter, and I built another MTM a few weeks ago and I was having some beaming issues, whereas I built the same design with the same side offset and it wasn't there. Maybe it was just me, maybe not. Either way, it doesn't really matter. :)

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 01:08 AM
Those look really good.... FOR ME TO POOP ON!

No, but seriously they don't look bad. I would be very interested to run some 20 to 20 tests impedance and response wise...

Oh, and the bass response should be enough with those huge *** ports you used!
I can't really make any real-time impedance measurements, but I did do some response testing even with a ****ed up cone. The off-axis response is quite decent, but there is a big peak right around 500hz where it's just far too boomy (not much at all, but since it's smooth as silk everywhere else, it's noticeable when compared to the same system). I haven't the faintest idea what is causing it, although I do suspect the x-over. I'm seriously contemplating re-doing the x-over circuit and attenuating the mids 4 dB along with the tweeter's L-pad which is already in place. I'm hoping I can knock down the response peak that way, plus, the x-overs I have in there are shittily made as you have seen.

joetama
01-14-2007, 01:12 AM
I can't really make any real-time impedance measurements, but I did do some response testing even with a ****ed up cone. The off-axis response is quite decent, but there is a big peak right around 500hz where it's just far too boomy (not much at all, but since it's smooth as silk everywhere else, it's noticeable when compared to the same system). I haven't the faintest idea what is causing it, although I do suspect the x-over. I'm seriously contemplating re-doing the x-over circuit and attenuating the mids 4 dB along with the tweeter's L-pad which is already in place. I'm hoping I can knock down the response peak that way, plus, the x-overs I have in there are shittily made as you have seen.

With me being the lazy bastard that I am right now, what was your cross-over tuned to? AND, do you have deadening in the box? Also, that peak might just be room response..

joetama
01-14-2007, 01:17 AM
Also, if you ship them to me I can do the testing for you with reference grade equipment ;)....

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 01:21 AM
I have zero padding in right now, but I do have two sheets of egg crate. I'm going to put some in when I change out the driver. And what do you mean what's the x-over tuned to? The points you mean? I believe its 2000hz for the woofers high pass and lowest for the tweet is 2000 as well. I'm not entirely sure, my stuff is on my keyring (flash drive).

joetama
01-14-2007, 01:26 AM
I have zero padding in right now, but I do have two sheets of egg crate. I'm going to put some in when I change out the driver. And what do you mean what's the x-over tuned to? The points you mean? I believe its 2000hz for the woofers high pass and lowest for the tweet is 2000 as well. I'm not entirely sure, my stuff is on my keyring (flash drive).

Yep that is what I ment... What types of slopes are you using also? Just curious.....

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 01:33 AM
First order butterworth.

joetama
01-14-2007, 01:35 AM
First order butterworth.

Reason we picked a 6db/oct slope???

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 01:40 AM
Simplicity, and after reading something on diyaudio about how 1st order is more "pure" :laugh:

joetama
01-14-2007, 01:44 AM
Simplicity, and after reading something on diyaudio about how 1st order is more "pure" :laugh:

Pure my anus.... You are going to have to have a big separation in frequency other wise you are going to double over the drivers in a rather large band with will give you nice voice rang most likely but everything else will be lacking balance wise.

I personally have had good experience with 3rd order on the tweeter and 2nd order on the mid/woofer....

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 11:26 AM
Like I said, I'm already considering re-doing the xover with a proper PC board to see how it turns out. :)

joetama
01-14-2007, 12:09 PM
Cross-over is very trial and error sometimes.... I would say give it a try and also deaden the box with the padding and it should work out rather well....

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 02:03 PM
Will do. :)

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:05 PM
Will do. :)

You better **** it!!!

You still looking at UC?

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 02:09 PM
No, sorry :(

Purdue FTW!

joetama
01-14-2007, 02:12 PM
No, sorry :(

Purdue FTW!


Good Choice... UC *****!!!

PV Audio
01-14-2007, 05:03 PM
LOL :laugh:

I wasn't expecting that.

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 03:33 PM
Hey all! I finally got my new x-overs...:woot:

First person to correctly name the slope configuration (minus B&W since we discussed it) gets a pat on the back.

Anyway, this is my first time using this involved of a slope, so I hope it's good. All parts are jantzen, and I think I did pretty well. It was also my first time using PCBs, and I completely ruined three of them learning how to properly draw and etch them. I finally figured it out, heated up my FeCL3 and got to work. As you'll see in one of the pictures, the etch resist apparently wasn't resisting too great, so I had to make a little "bridge" with some jumper wire. Not too worried though, since the ****er is on there pretty **** snug. One thing I did notice is that I had quite a few cold solder joints. What causes that? Many of them were shiny and smooth, but some were still kinda rough. What do ya do about that? Comments and suggestions are welcomed, although I'm not changing these out. Will have results up tonight.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/7376/IMG_0090.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8518/IMG_0095.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2158/IMG_0094.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1527/IMG_94.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2931/IMG_0092.jpg
Note the SWEET electrical tape that's supposed to block the magnetic field.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6640/IMG_0097.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8131/IMG_0096.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/142/IMG_0100.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1347/IMG_0102.jpg

-Dave

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 04:00 PM
Oh BTW, the rough edges of the board are from me taking them to the table saw and cutting .5" off them...they didn't like that :(

NhustlaR
02-25-2007, 04:19 PM
cool.

thylantyr
02-25-2007, 04:42 PM
Etchant likes to be agitated while it eats your copper. This gives a cleaner trace etch and it
etches faster. If you did PCB's all the time, a small glass tank filled with etchant
{plus lid} with an aquarium pump blowing bubbles via a long tube inside the tank
works great. Just suspend the PCB in the tank using a string and them bubbles agitate well. :)

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 06:06 PM
Yeah see, the first one I did I just let it soak (first of the successes I mean). The second one, I agitated it a bit and got bored, so I set it on the washing machine and put it on a spin setting and it agitated it for me, but still took 1.5 hrs (versus 3 for the first one). The FeCl3 is radioshack stuff, and it says 20 minutes....yeah right.

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 06:07 PM
Oh, and I hand drew the etches with a sharpie, should I use something else next time?

theCybe
02-25-2007, 06:39 PM
Looks awesome!

As far as the traces, I can get copper foil that can be cut in the plotter - perfect traces, and adhesive to boot!

So if you get into complex (or small) PCB designing, LMK.

Subscribed to the build

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 06:47 PM
Haha man, the build is over. But thank you. I'm trying to wait as long as I can to listen to them, makes them all the better or all the worse :laugh:

And unfortunately, the only thing I'll be using PCBs for is x-overs, and unfortunately again, I usually only make them for myself. I mean, would YOU buy a filter from someone in high school for your expensive speakers? Nope, probably not. :(

PatFitz9
02-25-2007, 06:48 PM
can't you cover it with tape? gives you better lines.

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 06:50 PM
Probably can, but I don't have any that I know will resist the etchant, so I would rather not take the chance wasting them.

Eugenics
02-25-2007, 06:53 PM
uh, 6db?

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 07:01 PM
1. Not even close :)

2. Notice the tweeter and the woofer have different slopes as it is...;)

baseballer1100
02-25-2007, 07:06 PM
sound any better?

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 07:11 PM
Haven't even tested yet, I'm waiting until I finish my homework.

baseballer1100
02-25-2007, 07:12 PM
Homework is overrated.

Eugenics
02-25-2007, 07:17 PM
i'm talking about the first one.

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 07:48 PM
Oh, yes, the first one is a first-order.

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 08:43 PM
Okay, just tried them......the tweeters don't work WTF. They work fine when given power directly, and the woofers work fine in the circuit (so I KNOW that power is going through the entire thing, otherwise it won't work), and the problem is the same in both. What the hell could be the problem? Sooo mad right now :mad:

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 08:44 PM
delete

PV Audio
02-25-2007, 09:01 PM
Okay, I just did some localized testing on the x-over. The power is fine at the tweeter terminal. The power is lessened at the first inductor, and then is almost non-existent at the second inductor. What the hell is causing this? Is it because the inductors are too close or what?

thylantyr
02-25-2007, 11:18 PM
Oh, and I hand drew the etches with a sharpie, should I use something else next time?

Try ink resist pen.

1.5 hrs. with agitation is suspect. I'm thinking maybe 30 minutes tops. Maybe
the etchant from radio shack is watered down, lol ...

thylantyr
02-25-2007, 11:22 PM
Sanity check. Use a DMM and see if the traces are zero ohm.
Post a crossover schematic pic.

thylantyr
02-25-2007, 11:48 PM
Use a DMM and see if you get zero ohms between input ground terminal
and tweeter ground terminal on the other side of the board, looks weird.

PV Audio
02-26-2007, 12:00 AM
Lemme go get my DMM, here's the schematic:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5052/untitledov7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

PV Audio
02-26-2007, 12:04 AM
Use a DMM and see if you get zero ohms between input ground terminal
and tweeter ground terminal on the other side of the board, looks weird.Okay, you're going to have to explain that more because I don't know what you're asking. I measured the traces, and they measure out at .4 ohms...is that bad? The thing is, it's the same for all of them, not just the tweeter.

req
02-26-2007, 12:48 AM
yup. didnt read anything in this thread.

cool lemons. i suppose?

so any more pics of the thing you actually built in your house?

PV Audio
02-26-2007, 12:57 AM
Nah, no more pics sorry. I had to rehost most of my pics and those guys were only stored on my CF card....which I cleared :(

thylantyr
02-26-2007, 02:02 AM
PCB: Does the tweeter negative terminal connect to the other gnd terminal where
you connect the amp ? ie, the big coil, I don't see it connected to input ground.

PowerNaudio
02-26-2007, 08:11 PM
the schematic looks alright. do you have some close up pics of the pc board. there could be a bad trace.
NVM i found the pics of the board.

edit.
if there are no broken tracks check your caps. one might be inop.

thylantyr
02-27-2007, 01:51 AM
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=97051&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

I win, I posted the problem first.. here ... on this forum ......... neener............

You have no faith, tail between the legs and retreating to DIYaudio.com :laugh: :rolleyes: :laugh:

You get no cookie :p:

:)

joetama
02-27-2007, 04:23 PM
You get it working yet?

thylantyr
02-27-2007, 05:02 PM
You get it working yet?

He only talks to DIYaudio folks :laugh:

j/k

PV Audio
02-27-2007, 05:20 PM
Yep! Got it working. :laugh:

It's literally sera i giorno, I can feel people playing string bass now. The biggest thing to change is the midrange. It is simply ASTOUNDING. Light and airy when needs to be, and robust and full without being harsh and boomy. The tweeters are still disappointing though, I shouldn't have half-assed it the first time around :(

thylantyr
02-27-2007, 07:07 PM
What's your crossover frequency ?

Why the L-pad on the mids ?

PV Audio
02-27-2007, 10:35 PM
It's 2k both ways. I found that the midrange was FAR too forward, so I plotted my old x-over, and there was a HUGE peak in the woofer response right around 150-200hz or so. I started playing around with attenuation techniques, and I threw on that l-pad and it flattened it out. Believe me, I had forgotten about the l-pad until someone mentioned it after my first listen, but good GOD it helped. :)

thylantyr
02-27-2007, 11:53 PM
L-pad doesn't change the frequency response, it only reduces power to the drivers.

If your tweeter has no lpad and your woofers are too forward, then you can
l-pad the woofers to reduce power so the SPL level is reduced to match the
tweeter.

If you add another L-pad to the tweeter, you now reduce tweeter SPL and
you are back to square one.

I don't know what attenuation levels you programmed, but lets assume
that you did a quick experiment. Bypass the l-pads and listen to the sound.
If the woofers dominate, then install the woofer l-pad and retest. If ok, then no
need for the tweeter l-pad.

If the tweeter dominated in the no l-pad test, then you l-pad the tweeters
and not the woofers.

You probably need a zobel on the woofers.

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

PV Audio
02-28-2007, 07:40 AM
I believe that there's a 4dB on the tweet and a 2 dB on the woofer. The tweeter was outrageous, and even with the new slope, the woofers still had some peakiness. This isn't the same l-pad as before either.

thylantyr
02-28-2007, 11:16 AM
You can do some listening sessions to see if you can optimize the project more.

I believe that there's a 4dB on the tweet and a 2 dB on the woofer.
If you do 0dB on the woofers and 2dB on the tweeters, the results are the same
but the speakers will get more power from your amp with this config because
there is less attentuation on both drivers types.

The tweeter was outrageous
I still haven't figured out what your tweeter issue is... skinny ?
Keep in mind that some resistors of low ohms are wire wound, I don't
know if you snagged regular ones or non inductive resistors, because
wirewound resistors are inductors and you will get some low pass action
on those tweeters filtering the top end off. I don' t know the specs so I can't
say if that effect is taking place, most likely it's outside the audio range.

and even with the new slope, the woofers still had some peakiness.
.. because the L-pad doesn't affect FR [assumng non inductive l-pad]

Using the Dayton Reference Series 7" woofer
People that use this driver use 4th - 8th order crossovers to filter out
the nasty break up modes.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-374g.pdf

If you turn off the tweeter and just listen to the woofers, if you hear any
high frequency sizzle {fo sizzle my woofinizzle}, then you need a steeper
slope and/or lower crossover frequency. If it sounds good to you as is, leave it
alone.

If the tweeter SPL in relation to the woofers is not high enough, then bypass
the l-pad and do another listening test.

This is where a DCX comes in handy. You can figure all this out in minutes and
determine the best crossover and you can translate those settings into a passive crossover
design [or keep the DCX on the speaker]. If you migrate to this methodology, you'd be taking a huge leap forward vs.
traditional methods.

PV Audio
02-28-2007, 08:01 PM
Hmm, interesting. The tweeter is bad not because of the x-over, it just isn't a good tweeter. It's very shrill and sometimes beams like a mother****er.

joetama
02-28-2007, 10:34 PM
Yep! Got it working. :laugh:

It's literally sera i giorno, I can feel people playing string bass now. The biggest thing to change is the midrange. It is simply ASTOUNDING. Light and airy when needs to be, and robust and full without being harsh and boomy. The tweeters are still disappointing though, I shouldn't have half-assed it the first time around :(

Remember who the guy was who said you should change your crossover... ;)

thylantyr
02-28-2007, 10:39 PM
Remember who the guy was who said you should change your crossover... ;)

He was going to use 1st order?


The tweeter is bad not because of the x-over, it just isn't a good tweeter. It's very shrill and sometimes beams like a mother****er.

Poor tweeter, no love.

You can identify if the shrill is due to midrange or very high frequency? A 4th order
crossover is good and it should work nice at 2khz, but maybe that tweeter
just needs a we-bit higher, maybe 2.5khz. Even a dog can be made to sound
good :laugh: *coughbuyadcx*