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SpasticGramps
12-26-2006, 02:09 AM
I recently installed CDT EF-8s as my midbass drivers to go along with CDT HD4in components and 2 2 1/2 AVI center channels. These 8in drivers are in heavily deadened doors. I love the way vocals are percussion sounds on the top in of my front stage, but honestly I think the CDT EF-8s are poor midbass drivers. I have the Rockford Fosgate 360.2 EQ and am able to mute all the channels easily and seperate the midbass drivers (on a PG Xeon 200.2 amp).

The drivers sound very muddy lacking impact and tonality IMO. I feel my old CDT CL 61 series drivers offer a more pleasant sound than these. Anyway, these things are screwing up the sound of my system and I need some ideas on some good 8in. drivers that are designed for midbass. Any suggestions would be appericated. Thanks.

req
12-26-2006, 02:16 AM
got a budget in mind? mounting depth? impedance?

SpasticGramps
12-26-2006, 03:25 AM
well the doors had to be fabricated to meet the CDT EF-8's mounting depth which was fairly deep. I'm having a hard time finding the exact number, but if I remember right it was around 4 1/2 inches. 4 ohm impedance (typical car speaker), and no buget in mind. I want to try and drop in the best 8in driver that I can without making major door modifications if I can possibly avoid it.

SpasticGramps
12-26-2006, 01:31 PM
I was considering these.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-066

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-056

I'm not exactly sure what the difference is. Does anyone have any experience with these.

thehardknoxlife
12-26-2006, 01:48 PM
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=2&id_descrizione=44&prodotto=53 Someone suggested these to me a while back. 3.5" mounting depth.

T3mpest
12-27-2006, 04:12 AM
what about these http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=144860.2322&pid=1379 :D

Just kidding... Anyway, have you tried switching phase on your midbass? If not do that first. Other than that play with crossover points. Maybe they like a steeper slope than what your giving them? If you really can't make them work, try http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-376 maybe? They were all the rage in the DIY crowd a while back. Supposedly a very solid performer for the price. I'm sure someone on here has used them, if not try dimya.

BlackMaxima
12-27-2006, 04:45 AM
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183830

alteraudiousa
12-27-2006, 11:15 AM
i would play around the with the slopes and EQing it. I didn't like the EF-8 either with a normal slope. i think i had it crossed at about 250hz for normal music, 200hz with doing test tones and when playing at high volumes. Also these were steep slopes, 18db and 24db slopes. I would play around with it for a while. if that doesn't work try the Dayton Ref 8in.

req
12-27-2006, 11:40 AM
well another is the critical mass MB82. its a 2 ohm neo motor that is front mounted for a shallow mounting depth. they work infinite baffle and do from like 40hz~2000hz. they are intended for strict midbass duty. they are on the top end scale of the prices you are looking for. so i dont know about that part.

http://criticalmassaudio.com/catalog/images/uploads/MB82_1-(1).jpg

http://criticalmassaudio.com/catalog/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=5

SpasticGramps
12-27-2006, 08:26 PM
I'm gonna try and EQ it and see what I can come up with. The critical mass speaker looks pretty **** ****. I'm not concerned about price I have a lot of money in the vechile already and want it to sound right.

Thanks for all the replies

SpasticGramps
12-27-2006, 10:14 PM
I'm wondering if I were to replace the deep 4 1/2in EF-8 with the shallow MB82 if i could seal the enclosure somehow. Some kind of baffle perhaps. Would the MB82 benefit from that sealed airspace as opposed working IB. The driver would sit on a 2in thick MDF baffle and the doors have been built out some to accomadate the big CDT driver. The displacement difference would leave some airspace, but I'm not sure if it would be suffiecent enough to be benefitcial to the critical mass driver?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Oak244
12-27-2006, 10:41 PM
I will just say, do not rule out 8 Ohm drivers. I switched from 4Ohm to 8 Ohm drivers in my car, and the 8 Ohm drivers with the exact same amps, are actually much louder then the 4ohm were.

expo5.0
12-27-2006, 11:45 PM
what sensitivity ratings we talking here- before and after?

Trey803
12-27-2006, 11:50 PM
I will just say, do not rule out 8 Ohm drivers. I switched from 4Ohm to 8 Ohm drivers in my car, and the 8 Ohm drivers with the exact same amps, are actually much louder then the 4ohm were.

unless it was a completely different driver that was more efficient a 4 ohm speaker would be putting less resitance on an amp therefore making it loouder

T3mpest
12-28-2006, 03:09 AM
unless it was a completely different driver that was more efficient a 4 ohm speaker would be putting less resitance on an amp therefore making it loouder

True, but most speaker manufacturers rate at 2.84v. 2.84 volts is actually 2 watts when dealing with a 4ohm speaker. A 8 ohm driver at 2.84 is actually being rated properly vs a 4 ohm driver. So if they both show equal efficiency on paper then they will actually be equally loud, with the 8 ohm driver putting less strain on the amp, since it's using 1/2 the power.

expo5.0
12-28-2006, 03:23 AM
wait- explain that again

i've been curious about this- having sort of understood but not fully understood the concept here

B_Campbell
12-28-2006, 09:42 AM
Did you ever think about going for some midbass 6.5's like maybe the AA Poly mids, XXX mids or the DD 6.5LT's?

squeak9798
12-28-2006, 07:12 PM
wait- explain that again

i've been curious about this- having sort of understood but not fully understood the concept here

Explain the sensitivity issue Tempest spoke of?

It's pretty simple; True sensitivity should be measured with 1w of input at 1m.

With 8ohm speakers, 1w of input works out to be 2.83V because P = V^2/R. So (2.83^2)/8 = 1w....no problems here.

However, many manufacturers use the same 2.83V to measure their 4ohm drivers. Herein lies the problem. Using the above formula, we can see that 2.83^2/4 = 2w. So the sensitivity for that 4ohm driver is going to be overstated by 3db
(10*log(2/1) = 3db).

So if you were comparing two drivers, one 4ohm and one that is 8ohm, with the same stated sensitivity of (for example) 92db and they were both rated using 2.83V.....the 4ohm driver would only have an actual sensitivity of 89db since it's sensitivity was overstated by 3db due to it receiving 2w of input rather than 1w. Thus, the 8ohm driver has a higher true sensitivity.

Many times you'll see an driver with it's sensivity ratings stated as being "2.83V/1m". This is perfectly fine w/ 8ohm drivers because it is exactly the same as "1w/1m". However, if it's a 4ohm driver that you see with the sensitivity being stated at "2.83V/1m" rather than "1w/1m".....you'll now that the sensitivity is actually 3db lower than stated.

Here is a prime example;

Dayton Reference 8" 4ohm driver (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-376) - Sensitivity stated as being 92db @ 2.83V/1m (which is likely a rounded figure aswell)

DIYMA review of the driver (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4114&highlight=dayton+reference) - Measured sensitivity of 88db @ 1w/1m (rounded)


Another way to figure out what the actual reference sensitivity for a driver is if it's not stated 2.83V or 1w is by using the formula I posted in another thread;
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2581740&postcount=6

squeak9798
12-28-2006, 07:21 PM
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183830

Finding an 8" mid to go with horns is a little different than finding an 8" midbass to go in a conventional setup. So I'm not sure that really applies well to him.


Anyways...I agree that the first thing you should do is fiddle more with the tuning, enclosure, phasing, etc before switching drivers.

Oak244
12-28-2006, 07:38 PM
Here are my 8" drivers. They play from 50Hz-1.25Khz. They are Peerless Exclusives 8ohm , matched with Peerless HDS tweets. I just finished the tweeter pods today, now they just need painted, and I am still waiting for the vinyl to arrive to finish the 8" pods.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/Oak244/Picture154.jpg

SpasticGramps
12-28-2006, 10:15 PM
Here are my 8" drivers. They play from 50Hz-1.25Khz. They are Peerless Exclusives 8ohm , matched with Peerless HDS tweets. I just finished the tweeter pods today, now they just need painted, and I am still waiting for the vinyl to arrive to finish the 8" pods.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/Oak244/Picture154.jpg

Definitely and interesting discussion about the 8ohm drivers. I did not know that, but physically it makes perfect sense.

I've been playing around with the EQ today some and still feel the CDT EF-8 drivers aren't going to produce the kind of sound quality that I want them too. I really believe these drivers around not made to work well IB and perform high quality midbass frequencies. The driver's suspension is significantly looser than any midbass speaker I've seen. It looks like an 8 that would perform awesome given the right sealed enclosure and playing low frequencies. It's spec sheet rates it's range from 10 - 400hz. Clearly once this speaker reaches true midbass frequencies it's at top end of its capabilites.


Oak, how would you rate those Peerless Exclusives?

I don't want to put in 6.5 drivers because my doors have been modified to hold the 8's and I'm trying to drop in these drivers with no or as little modification as possible.

Megalomaniac
12-28-2006, 10:19 PM
Here are my 8" drivers. They play from 50Hz-1.25Khz. They are Peerless Exclusives 8ohm , matched with Peerless HDS tweets. I just finished the tweeter pods today, now they just need painted, and I am still waiting for the vinyl to arrive to finish the 8" pods.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/Oak244/Picture154.jpg

that reminds me of josephs(~magic_man~) sentra, he has daytons in his door

Oak244
12-28-2006, 11:22 PM
The Peerless Exclusives are very nice drivers. Very detailed for sure. I have never heard Norah Jones sound so beautiful in a car before this setup! And for the first time, I can truely hear the bass player in Dave Matthews Band seperated from the bass drum of the drummer. In all my other setups, it was a mix without a true seperation. I have a 15" SI Mag run with 1050 watts of Arc Audio XXK power, so I was not worried too much about low bass quality. I was told the Exclusives were not the strongest at low end punch, but were the most detailed speaker I could get. Honestly with the SI sub and these Exclusives, I have more then enough bone rattling Bass and Hit in your chest midbass. Tomorrow I am going to start tweaking the system... ie gain sets, time alignment and start EQing. I can't wait to hear the results. I am already very happy with the setup the way it is. I can truely say now, that speaker placement means everything! The Exclusive 8's have very little roll off at even 60 degree's off axis, so those did not have to be on axis, but still I was able to turn them so they are only 30 degrees or less. The HDS tweeters on the other hand had bad roll off even at 30 degrees, so it was much more important to have those as close to on axis as possible, and by doing so, my sound stage is awesome!!

SpasticGramps
12-28-2006, 11:45 PM
awesome review about the 8's. My subass setup is def. not a truly SQ setup as you can see by my signature, but I'm trying to get my frontstage as tonality accuratte with as much loudness as possible, to "attempt" to keep up with the sub stage as much possible. I find since the DD drivers are breaking in they are becoming more tonality accurate at lower volumes.

Where would I find an authorized dealer to talk to about the peerless drivers. And what driver would suit my needs

http://www.peerlessaudio.com/products/drivers/main3.asp?filename=4

I see a couple 8ohm drivers. The PG Xeon gives 200w / channel through 1-4ohm config.

Oak244
12-28-2006, 11:58 PM
Well many use this place http://www.madisound.com/
I have used this place myself with great success http://www.meniscusaudio.com/

And for 8 Ohm midbass drivers I would search this site. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/


And for those debating about 8Ohm drivers here is a good read..
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31

If you are only looking for a midbass that does to 400hz or so, I would say the Exclusives are not what you need. The Exclusives are really for a 2 way system. Search the DIY site for reviews and such, and I am sure you will find the right driver.

6spdcoupe
12-29-2006, 12:31 AM
Surprised noone chimed in with Dyn MW182s...

SpasticGramps
12-29-2006, 01:41 AM
I'm really only concerned about a 3 way system, I have CDT HD 4 1/2 components and two 2 1/1in AVI center channels. They do a great job of producing the higher end of the spectrum. It's just the midbass that I'm lacking.

It really looks like the critical mass drivers are becoming the most viable option. I hate to be a sucker for mass marketing, but the review by C & A about their 12in flagship sub is undeniable. It sounds like that this company is an emerging force as far as SQ and power handling are involved.

I've seen the Dynaudio speakers on partsexpress.com, but am relucant because of their low cost. I would love to find a speaker of high caliber at a decent cost, but am wary emerging audio companies.

So I'm ramballing now and am done. Thanks.

6spdcoupe
12-29-2006, 02:02 AM
What drivers is it that you saw on PE from Dyn? They dont carry them. Madisound also only has parts, not the full drivers. If youve stummbled upon pricing somewhere and think they are 'low cost' then your wealthier than I and should Definately give them a listen.

JonJT
12-29-2006, 02:30 AM
well another is the critical mass MB82. its a 2 ohm neo motor that is front mounted for a shallow mounting depth. they work infinite baffle and do from like 40hz~2000hz. they are intended for strict midbass duty. they are on the top end scale of the prices you are looking for. so i dont know about that part.

http://criticalmassaudio.com/catalog/images/uploads/MB82_1-(1).jpg

http://criticalmassaudio.com/catalog/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=5


you have any detailed T/S specs for that driver? The website doesn't help.

expo5.0
12-29-2006, 02:43 AM
and the cost... if i could get over how much they'd ruin the flow of my doorpanels i'll maybe run them...

T3mpest
12-29-2006, 03:05 AM
What drivers is it that you saw on PE from Dyn? They dont carry them. Madisound also only has parts, not the full drivers. If youve stummbled upon pricing somewhere and think they are 'low cost' then your wealthier than I and should Definately give them a listen.

my thoughts exactly!

Oak244
12-29-2006, 08:34 AM
I did a little search for midbass drivers that would fit your need. Sounded like the Peerless XLS is one choice, and the other the Adire Extremist 6.8. But had good reviews when played with a seperate midrange, like yourself. The Peerless is the more popular choice, but its being discontinued, so will get harder to find.

T3mpest
12-29-2006, 11:37 AM
I did a little search for midbass drivers that would fit your need. Sounded like the Peerless XLS is one choice, and the other the Adire Extremist 6.8. But had good reviews when played with a seperate midrange, like yourself. The Peerless is the more popular choice, but its being discontinued, so will get harder to find.

Finding XlS 8 is hard, nigh impossible anymore. Even if he gets some, he'll need an EQ to make good use of them. They aren't built for IB, so a bit of eq work is needed to get a good response from them. They aren't a plug and play mid, in any respect. I almost had pair a week ago, 1 person got in ahead of me. The extremis is a good mid, albleit such smaller than the xls.

squeak9798
12-29-2006, 06:34 PM
What drivers is it that you saw on PE from Dyn? They dont carry them. Madisound also only has parts, not the full drivers. If youve stummbled upon pricing somewhere and think they are 'low cost' then your wealthier than I and should Definately give them a listen.


My guess would be he saw the Dynavox clones:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-610

Either that, or he was thinking of another brand and just mistyped.

SpasticGramps
12-30-2006, 12:26 AM
Yeah lol I was thinking of Dayton drivers. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366

Dynaudio is def not on the cheaper end.

I have the rockford fosgate 360.2. It has 31 bands of EQ per channel.

SpasticGramps
12-30-2006, 12:31 AM
The Dynaudio MW 172 looks like a nice driver for my application too.

6spdcoupe
12-30-2006, 12:33 AM
I think you would be quite pleased with it.