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MBrock4u
12-20-2006, 06:04 AM
I was driving home from work yesterday and was listening to fm radio, when Pink Floyd's Money was played. The seperation in that song is quite amazing. I have nice rear fill and believe you me, that song made it all worth it. The way the intro went from front to rear and side to side was awesome. Of course i had to crank it up a tad or two. For front stage only fans, you would be missing alot here. I realize that alot of music isn't like this, but when rear fill is in play, it makes songs like this a beautful thing. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

phyphoestilic
12-20-2006, 06:25 AM
are u sure the song has a part that only comes from the rear or ur rear speakers just reproduce the music louder at those points?

MBrock4u
12-20-2006, 06:54 AM
Its about the seperation, definitly rear!

chuksw9ve
12-20-2006, 06:59 AM
"Frankenstien" is like that too.Came out when 4 channel stereo was the new thing,so it was recorded to make use of it.

Lil Poot
12-20-2006, 07:04 AM
i dont feel like i'm missing out on anything when i listen to dark side of the moon :fyi:

MBrock4u
12-20-2006, 07:27 AM
Maybe not, but it's nice to have and listen to the difference.

SuperTrooper
12-20-2006, 08:07 AM
Whats cool is seeing live concerts with the surround sound going on. Like Pink Floyd, Rush, Triumph and Deep Purple. :yourock: Plus, amazing light shows. :bowdown:

ramos
12-20-2006, 08:18 AM
Hate to break it to you man . But the entire Brothers In Arms Album is a two channel recording done in 1985 . Not four channel . If your able to pick out your rear fill , then it's doing more than just rear fill . A well set up front stage only , can accomplish reverberation and echo :)

phyphoestilic
12-20-2006, 08:27 AM
Hate to break it to you man . But the entire Brothers In Arms Album is a two channel recording done in 1985 . Not four channel . If your able to pick out your rear fill , then it's doing more than just rear fill . A well set up front stage only , can accomplish reverberation and echo :)

yup so his rear is probably just playing louder than his fronts.

SuperTrooper
12-20-2006, 08:48 AM
Hate to break it to you man . But the entire Brothers In Arms Album is a two channel recording done in 1985 . Not four channel . If your able to pick out your rear fill , then it's doing more than just rear fill . A well set up front stage only , can accomplish reverberation and echo :)

Brothers In Arms album 1985? Pink Floyds "Money" is from the Dark Side Of the Moon released in 1973. If thats what you were talking about. If not my bad.:)

ramos
12-20-2006, 09:10 AM
Brothers In Arms album 1985? Pink Floyds "Money" is from the Dark Side Of the Moon released in 1973. If thats what you were talking about. If not my bad.:)



Derr , guess it would help if I read the pink floyd part :D I was thinking dire straits for some reason when he started talking about seperation :( Darkside of the moon or as it was going to be called "Eclipse, A Piece for Assorted Lunatics" was recorded in the same downmixed fashion though . multi channel recordings from the studio down mixed to stereo for playback on the new fangled hi fi stereo systems of the day . No surround at all :)

baseballer1100
12-20-2006, 09:14 AM
Another good reason is if your fronts blow. I unfortunatley dont have rear fill.

SQChevy
12-20-2006, 11:05 AM
If your fronts blow I somehow don't think that the rear fill will make up for it. Besides if you don't abuse everything should be ok. :)

frzninvt
12-20-2006, 11:23 AM
I run 5 channels and prefer to be immersed in the performance rather than having it all blasting from the front. With sensitivity and gain matching they can blend seamlessly. Those of you that run front stage only probably don't even compete in SQ competitions since there aren't really anymore so you are only fooling yourself. That said to each his own. YMMV.

I ran rear fill in my '94 Camaro competition vehicle with a Vifa center channel and I have the trophies to prove that it was more helpful than hinderence. (IASCA competitor from '95 - '97 in the Novice/Amateur 1-150 watt class). They were controllable and adjustable via L-Pads custom mounted in the center console.

ramos
12-20-2006, 11:25 AM
Call me old fashion , I don't like the sound of a center channel in a car :)

frzninvt
12-20-2006, 11:35 AM
It is controlled by a ceramic L-Pad and can be defeated easily, trust me it makes a big difference, and I am running a good set of components up front. The center blends seamlessly since it the same brand of speaker as the mains. To each his own though, everyone hears and interprets music differently.

B_Campbell
12-20-2006, 11:45 AM
rear fill is ghey

bk12321
12-20-2006, 11:45 AM
even if it was made in 85 or 73 or whatever, albums have been digitally remastered

phyphoestilic
12-20-2006, 11:51 AM
I run 5 channels and prefer to be immersed in the performance rather than having it all blasting from the front. With sensitivity and gain matching they can blend seamlessly. Those of you that run front stage only probably don't even compete in SQ competitions since there aren't really anymore so you are only fooling yourself. That said to each his own. YMMV.

I ran rear fill in my '94 Camaro competition vehicle with a Vifa center channel and I have the trophies to prove that it was more helpful than hinderence. (IASCA competitor from '95 - '97 in the Novice/Amateur 1-150 watt class). They were controllable and adjustable via L-Pads custom mounted in the center console.

Well I dont know about that, but I know the 2006 IASCA World Finalst rookie champ, and I know he only runs front stage.

ramos
12-20-2006, 12:30 PM
It is controlled by a ceramic L-Pad and can be defeated easily, trust me it makes a big difference, and I am running a good set of components up front. The center blends seamlessly since it the same brand of speaker as the mains. To each his own though, everyone hears and interprets music differently.



Not saying it's a bad thing , I just don't personally care for it . I have heard a few different set ups with centers , even heard a set up witha rear fill center channel . And you are correct , everyone hears differently :)

Suomi
12-20-2006, 12:30 PM
I own Dark Side on SACD. That version was produced in 5.1 surround (by Roger Waters) and sounds pretty amazing on my home setup. I wish my car had an SACD 5.1 setup, but alas, I have never seen car deck with SACD.

James Bang
12-20-2006, 12:36 PM
I was driving home from work yesterday and was listening to fm radio, when Pink Floyd's Money was played. The seperation in that song is quite amazing. I have nice rear fill and believe you me, that song made it all worth it. The way the intro went from front to rear and side to side was awesome. Of course i had to crank it up a tad or two. For front stage only fans, you would be missing alot here. I realize that alot of music isn't like this, but when rear fill is in play, it makes songs like this a beautful thing. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

isnt' fm radio broadcast'd in stereo?

///M5
12-20-2006, 01:28 PM
I was driving home from work yesterday and was listening to fm radio, when Pink Floyd's Money was played. The seperation in that song is quite amazing. I have nice rear fill and believe you me, that song made it all worth it. The way the intro went from front to rear and side to side was awesome. Of course i had to crank it up a tad or two. For front stage only fans, you would be missing alot here. I realize that alot of music isn't like this, but when rear fill is in play, it makes songs like this a beautful thing. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

Ha, ha, ha. That is some funny chit. What you are hearing is a very poorly tuned system, there is absolutely NO four channel information on that disk. What you describe is complete stage degradation and absolute nonsense. If you would have put your money into implementing your front stage correctly all of the spatial cues would be there, but instead of arbitrarily floating around your car they would actual move in a cohesive stage.

Worlddre
12-20-2006, 01:30 PM
Ha, ha, ha. That is some funny chit. What you are hearing is a very poorly tuned system, there is absolutely NO four channel information on that disk. What you describe is complete stage degradation and absolute nonsense. If you would have put your money into implementing your front stage correctly all of the spatial cues would be there, but instead of arbitrarily floating around your car they would actual move in a cohesive stage.

:imstupid:

reneeb7363
12-20-2006, 01:54 PM
what a controversial subject... I expect NG to come in here any time and tell you you are COMPLETELY wrong and dont get it! LOL!
But, I agree with you, I am also Pro rear "fill."
That's what some like...some dont..there have been winners with and without it... this has been debated a thousand times in here.....and everyone thinks they are right... whateva' :crazy:

check out the last time it was argued about:

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199518

reneeb7363
12-20-2006, 01:56 PM
I own Dark Side on SACD. That version was produced in 5.1 surround (by Roger Waters) and sounds pretty amazing on my home setup. I wish my car had an SACD 5.1 setup, but alas, I have never seen car deck with SACD.

wasn't / didn't Eclipse put out a full 5.1 mobile system?

DBfan187
12-20-2006, 01:57 PM
music is 2 channel.

DsrtJeeper
12-20-2006, 02:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Roger Waters record many of his songs in "Q" sound? The B-52's used the same recording technique. If you listen to Roger Water's "Amused To Death" album; you can clearly hear the effects on a 2 channel home system with proper setup.

http://experts.about.com/e/q/q/q-sound.htm

reneeb7363
12-20-2006, 02:11 PM
Most "mainstream" music is 2 Channel--- BUT, most music is also recorded with multiple microphones (and frequently on seperate tracks) that are mastered to produce the sound(s) we listen to today. So there is spatial recordings meant to simulate, or in the case of a non-mainstream artist, even release with multiple channel information to better enhance the listening experience.
Mannheim Steamroller has released Hi Def Cd's that are amazing--
Caution: you are about to go outside of your reality and experience new age creativity: http://dev.shop-amgram.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AG&Category_Code=MCD5

another interesting thing I noticed...those that adamantely (s?) argue about front sound stage only, are mostly Pickup Truck Owners. hmmmmmm???

3.5Max6spd
12-20-2006, 02:15 PM
Its about the seperation, definitly rear!

Separation is L/R. If you are supposed to hear something behind you it would only truly be there in a 5.1 recording. So unless you have a 5.1 cd player, than you are just imagining things...

okthanxbye

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 02:42 PM
Most "mainstream" music is 2 Channel--- BUT, most music is also recorded with multiple microphones (and frequently on seperate tracks) that are mastered to produce the sound(s) we listen to today. So there is spatial recordings meant to simulate, or in the case of a non-mainstream artist, even release with multiple channel information to better enhance the listening experience.
Mannheim Steamroller has released Hi Def Cd's that are amazing--
Caution: you are about to go outside of your reality and experience new age creativity: http://dev.shop-amgram.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AG&Category_Code=MCD5

another interesting thing I noticed...those that adamantely (s?) argue about front sound stage only, are mostly Pickup Truck Owners. hmmmmmm???


I own a pick up...whats your point?

I record and produce music. I wouldnt even begin to attempt any rear fill implmentation unless it was a video. Music is left and right. No front or rear.

You ever been to a concert? Where are the artists on stage? In front? You ever notice where the PA is located? In front to the left and right.

Music can be manipulated how ever you want...but it will never deviate from left and right. Not front to back. If I was at a concert and the artist was behind me then maybe it would be OK...but it doesnt happen like that now does it?

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 02:53 PM
Where is the rear speakers to setup the rear fill?

http://www.studioparadiso.net/images/pic_a1.gif
http://www.johnvestman.com/images/Studio.A.jpg
http://www.crystalphonic.com/mainopenertop.jpg
http://adamblueproductions.com/images/studiopic.jpg


Rear fill is all in your head for anything that isnt recorded in 5.1 (99% of which is video).

DsrtJeeper
12-20-2006, 02:58 PM
I own a pick up...whats your point?

I record and produce music. I wouldnt even begin to attempt any rear fill implmentation unless it was a video. Music is left and right. No front or rear.

You ever been to a concert? Where are the artists on stage? In front? You ever notice where the PA is located? In front to the left and right.

Music can be manipulated how ever you want...but it will never deviate from left and right. Not front to back. If I was at a concert and the artist was behind me then maybe it would be OK...but it doesnt happen like that now does it?

You are comparing two different things here. Live music and recorded music. Live music gives off many more cues do to speaker placement, reverb, echo and early reflections. This often gives off a fuller sound that many attribute to the real thing. Ever notice how a recording ***** compared to the live event?

One of the most elusive aspects of tuning a home audio system is trying to achieve the "you are there" feeling. It's not any different in car audio. If rear fill helps you achieve that sense of being there; is it a bad thing? To each their own....

James Bang
12-20-2006, 03:00 PM
... OP said that he was listening to fm radio... that there proves it was all in his head. he was listening to music in 'stereo'


and of course women like renee are pro rear fill. i would like all women to be.


no pickup truck for me and no rear fill for me.

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 03:01 PM
You are comparing two different things here. Live music and recorded music. Live music gives off many more cues do to speaker placement, reverb, echo and early reflections. This often gives off a fuller sound that many attribute to the real thing. Ever notice how a recording ***** compared to the live event?

One of the most elusive aspects of tuning a home audio system is trying to achieve the "you are there" feeling. It's not any different in car audio. If rear fill helps you achieve that sense of being there; is it a bad thing? To each their own....


Not comparing...using two seperate examples.

There is no rear fill in recording or live performances for 99% of all music...video maybe to achieve the "you are there" feeling you speak of.

As you said, to each his own...I choose to not use it.

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 03:06 PM
The poor man's studio..."The Barn" I would give anything to have the money the above studio's have...

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4194/img0021b1qz.jpg

DBfan187
12-20-2006, 03:15 PM
The poor man's studio..."The Barn" I would give anything to have the money the above studio's have...

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4194/img0021b1qz.jpg
yours?

Calikid
12-20-2006, 03:16 PM
:word:

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 03:19 PM
yours?

;)

SkwurlyFab
12-20-2006, 03:24 PM
Girls in the back of my 4runner like that they can still hear the words as well as have a full body massage. Rear fill is very worth it to me:naughty:

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 03:29 PM
Girls in the back of my 4runner like that they can still hear the words as well as have a full body massage. Rear fill is very worth it to me:naughty:


I have been in the 3rd row of a Youkon XL with 2 15" RE SEs and could still hear the words VERY clearly and just we well staged as if I was up front. There was no rear fill ;)

DsrtJeeper
12-20-2006, 03:36 PM
Not comparing...using two seperate examples.

There is no rear fill in recording or live performances for 99% of all music...video maybe to achieve the "you are there" feeling you speak of.

As you said, to each his own...I choose to not use it.

I never said there is rear fill in a live performance. I elluded to the spacial cues of a live performance that can't often be correctly duplicated by a automobile's two channel setup. Limitations exist in the small interiors.

You mention that the band is infront of the listener at a concert. What about the audience? If you are mid row; there will be sounds from behind as well. All sounds within the concert hall give it it's feeling and adds to more for your senses to process. Rear fill can fool the brain into feeling that there is sound eminating from all angles. Home theatre 5.1 and 7.1 are successful for a reason. I'm a 2 channel person myself, but can see both sides of the discussion. Of course; all is dependant on recording technique, micing process, mixing and the intent of the artist.

Johnny Drama
12-20-2006, 04:07 PM
I never said there is rear fill in a live performance. I elluded to the spacial cues of a live performance that can't often be correctly duplicated by a automobile's two channel setup. Limitations exist in the small interiors.

You mention that the band is infront of the listener at a concert. What about the audience? If you are mid row; there will be sounds from behind as well. All sounds within the concert hall give it it's feeling and adds to more for your senses to process. Rear fill can fool the brain into feeling that there is sound eminating from all angles. Home theatre 5.1 and 7.1 are successful for a reason. I'm a 2 channel person myself, but can see both sides of the discussion. Of course; all is dependant on recording technique, micing process, mixing and the intent of the artist.

I see where you are at and I see where you are going with your replies.

However, with rear fill you wont get any additions to the "feel" department you speak of with the addition to the audience behind you with out major sacrifice in depth. They usually dont mic the croud. Most of the sounds you hear audience wise comes from the lead vocal mics. On accation, yes they do mic the audience...
But with the addition of rear fill all you are going is reproducing the front left in the rear left and the same on the right. This may add to the audience feel, but you are also sacrificing your staging and depth. Your rear fill is going to pull the staging tword your lap or the center of the car. This is a bad thing. In all the boards, mixers, and computer software none have any rear settings (EXCEPT 5.1 AND 7.1 RECORDING). Its all left and right pan. There for either with recording live music or in studio you cant truely get the feel of being in the center row middle of a concert.

I do agree that this is where 5.1 and 7.1 is key to getting that full live feel. As they CAN reproduce this, the problem is how many CD's out there use this recorging method? I'd bet very, very slim numbers. This is why I stated that for video, where you would definatly want 5.1 or 7.1, it is a good thing.

DsrtJeeper
12-20-2006, 04:34 PM
I see where you are at and I see where you are going with your replies.

However, with rear fill you wont get any additions to the "feel" department you speak of with the addition to the audience behind you with out major sacrifice in depth. They usually dont mic the croud. Most of the sounds you hear audience wise comes from the lead vocal mics. On accation, yes they do mic the audience...
But with the addition of rear fill all you are going is reproducing the front left in the rear left and the same on the right. This may add to the audience feel, but you are also sacrificing your staging and depth. Your rear fill is going to pull the staging tword your lap or the center of the car. This is a bad thing. In all the boards, mixers, and computer software none have any rear settings (EXCEPT 5.1 AND 7.1 RECORDING). Its all left and right pan. There for either with recording live music or in studio you cant truely get the feel of being in the center row middle of a concert.

I do agree that this is where 5.1 and 7.1 is key to getting that full live feel. As they CAN reproduce this, the problem is how many CD's out there use this recorging method? I'd bet very, very slim numbers. This is why I stated that for video, where you would definatly want 5.1 or 7.1, it is a good thing.

Agreed and why I'm a 2 channel listener. :) Now if I could get my car audio to sound as nice as my home audio....Gotta love vacuum tubes and Canadian speakers.

Suomi
12-20-2006, 05:02 PM
wasn't / didn't Eclipse put out a full 5.1 mobile system?

I have seen a few mobile systems that were 5.1 capable. I've just never seen one that could play SACDs. I own quite a few SACDs for my home system, and they sound incredible, so I wish I could play them in my car. I've heard some mobile DVD-Audio systems which sounded pretty nice. The bit-rate from DVD-A and SACD music blows CDs out of the water.

///M5
12-20-2006, 05:47 PM
Bottom line is if you gain anything with rear fill you have done a very poor job of installing your front stage and fail as an installer in my book.

azbass
12-20-2006, 05:49 PM
Ha, ha, ha. That is some funny chit. What you are hearing is a very poorly tuned system, there is absolutely NO four channel information on that disk. What you describe is complete stage degradation and absolute nonsense. If you would have put your money into implementing your front stage correctly all of the spatial cues would be there, but instead of arbitrarily floating around your car they would actual move in a cohesive stage.

lol. oh snap son

MBrock4u
12-20-2006, 07:58 PM
All these funny responses. LOL! I heard what I heard and it sounded damm good. As far as putting money in a solid front stage my friend, I have! Properly tunned, yes indeed, it is to allow for some rear fill. All you have to do is pull the front up fader up a few notches and you are set. I have NEVER said anywhere or anytime that rear fill is better. I understand fully that you can have a fabulous system without rear fill at all. It is just a personal preference.

T3mpest
12-21-2006, 01:54 AM
what your hearing isn't the point, it's what your NOT hearing due to improper speaker placement. A car has more reflected sounds than just about any concert you'll ever go to. So rear fill for the sake of immersion isnt' needed. Rear fill will however will hurt your stage depth as well as other spatial cues. Which is a huge immersion killer, IMO. Anytime you can close your eyes and imagine the bass player playing 5 feet away from your face, out on the hood, at a defined location you can easily point too, that's immersive, IMO!

baseballer1100
12-21-2006, 02:16 AM
If your fronts blow I somehow don't think that the rear fill will make up for it. Besides if you don't abuse everything should be ok. :)

well lets see they were temporary to begin with and had to keep up with my btls. I was kinda being saracastic as i want something to hold me over until i get new speakers up front

mlstrass
12-21-2006, 03:25 AM
Bottom line is if you gain anything with rear fill you have done a very poor job of installing your front stage and fail as an installer in my book.

PURELY subjective statement. There is NO right or wrong way, only what the listener/owner enjoys.

Not everyone is concerned with stage depth, imaging, sound coming from the middle of the windshield, or whatever. I'd say the majority just want some decent sounding tunes while commuting.

I have a nice front stage, but at times I want more, so my rear fill amp is wired to a toggle switch. I've also set the amp gain, so it's NOT as loud as the front, but still plenty loud. Sound still seems as if it comes from the front but is MUCH louder and fuller sounding. I personally like being immersed in the sound at times.

For ME daily driver SQL is about: plenty of lows, mids that punch you in the chest, and detailed and pleasing highs, AND the ability to get VERY loud, but still sound good at that volume.

Seems like 99% of the no rear fill guys act as if everyone should set their car up for SQ comps. Seems pointless if you're not going to compete.

I'll say it again: IMO the majority of people throwing a system in a car would be VERY happy with a 4 channel amp and 2 pair of coax's and a decent sub. Most bang for the buck, especially for listeners who aren't so discerning.

But again I do understand the "other" side.

T3mpest
12-21-2006, 04:40 AM
PURELY subjective statement. There is NO right or wrong way, only what the listener/owner enjoys.

Not everyone is concerned with stage depth, imaging, sound coming from the middle of the windshield, or whatever. I'd say the majority just want some decent sounding tunes while commuting.

I have a nice front stage, but at times I want more, so my rear fill amp is wired to a toggle switch. I've also set the amp gain, so it's NOT as loud as the front, but still plenty loud. Sound still seems as if it comes from the front but is MUCH louder and fuller sounding. I personally like being immersed in the sound at times.

For ME daily driver SQL is about: plenty of lows, mids that punch you in the chest, and detailed and pleasing highs, AND the ability to get VERY loud, but still sound good at that volume.

[Seems like 99% of the no rear fill guys act as if everyone should set their car up for SQ comps. Seems pointless if you're not going to compete.

I'll say it again: IMO the majority of people throwing a system in a car would be VERY happy with a 4 channel amp and 2 pair of coax's and a decent sub. Most bang for the buck, especially for listeners who aren't so discerning.

But again I do understand the "other" side.
Have you ever heard a high end SQ car, like one that can actually compete and place well in a SQ comp? It's an experience, I can tell you that. It's simialar to setting in front of high end HT gear, not the 5.1 stuff, but actual music oriented gear. There's a very good reason people want their cars to sound like that, simply put, a daily driver is designed to play music. SQ cars are designed to play music well.

MBrock4u
12-21-2006, 06:41 AM
I wouldn't argue that point, but seems to me people who ride in my car love what they hear, especially me. I get many complements on my system, because it is well balanced and blending. For me, I am a happy camper. I won't be going to any sq compatitions any time soon. LOL!

ramos
12-21-2006, 07:55 AM
IMO speaking musically in a competitive sq vehicle , a properly tuned , well installed front stage. Should make the listener perceive the same exact "rear fill" as you hear in a concert. Without the need for extra drivers . There is not band behind you at a concert . It's just reflections off of objects behind you . A good front stage can accomplish this. Rear fill to me is like using too much TA , a band aid for other problems . But I'm just an opinionated old fart :)

phyphoestilic
12-21-2006, 09:07 AM
I wouldn't argue that point, but seems to me people who ride in my car love what they hear, especially me. I get many complements on my system, because it is well balanced and blending. For me, I am a happy camper. I won't be going to any sq compatitions any time soon. LOL!

we'r trying to tell u that if u just had a good front stage u wouldnt need the "rear" fill. Obviously u havnt heard a good front stage. I'm glad that ur happy with what u got, but the point we'r trying to make is that the rear fill is pointless.

Kenny Pollock
12-21-2006, 09:18 AM
and of course women like renee are pro rear fill. i would like all women to be.
LOL

psych0ticnemes1
12-21-2006, 09:40 AM
i'm happy with just my polk coax's off of my deck up front. Strangely enough, they get as loud and sound as good off my deck as they do off of my jbl 180.2. They aren't very power hungry speakers.

That being said, i listen to a lot of rock, classic and modern, some hip hop, country (come on, it is funny stuff!) and i must say, if you want your vehicle to sound like a concert, fronts are the only way to go. Rears, to me, take away a bit of the detail in the music. Just my opinion :)

mlstrass
12-21-2006, 01:30 PM
we'r trying to tell u that if u just had a good front stage u wouldnt need the "rear" fill. Obviously u havnt heard a good front stage. I'm glad that ur happy with what u got, but the point we'r trying to make is that the rear fill is pointless.


Actually you're trying to tell him what HIS ears like, which isn't possible. ;)

mlstrass
12-21-2006, 01:37 PM
Have you ever heard a high end SQ car, like one that can actually compete and place well in a SQ comp? It's an experience, I can tell you that. It's simialar to setting in front of high end HT gear, not the 5.1 stuff, but actual music oriented gear. There's a very good reason people want their cars to sound like that, simply put, a daily driver is designed to play music. SQ cars are designed to play music well.


Never had the chance, but actually have little desire to either. I'm VERY happy with what I put together in my car. I'm not on the neverending search like most seem to be. Does mine sound like the SQ car you mentioned, not hardly, but it puts a smile on my face everytime I listen and that's all that matters.

I have a pretty nice HT set up with 6 Klipsch Legends and 4 Tempests, but don't listen to 2 channel music all that much. Perhaps another reason I prefer being engulfed in the sound at times.

It just seems like a LOT of guys offer advice under the pretense that EVERYONE wants a competition SQ car, when all they really want is decent DD SQL, which is a much easier goal to achieve.

///M5
12-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Never had the chance, but actually have little desire to either. I'm VERY happy with what I put together in my car. I'm not on the neverending search like most seem to be. Does mine sound like the SQ car you mentioned, not hardly, but it puts a smile on my face everytime I listen and that's all that matters.

I have a pretty nice HT set up with 6 Klipsch Legends and 4 Tempests, but don't listen to 2 channel music all that much. Perhaps another reason I prefer being engulfed in the sound at times.

It just seems like a LOT of guys offer advice under the pretense that EVERYONE wants a competition SQ car, when all they really want is decent DD SQL, which is a much easier goal to achieve.

I couldn't disagree more. What I see is a lot of people recommending rear fill to add volume and give perceived surround sound. The truth is that more than 99% of these people have never sat in a truly well tuned front stage only vehicle. They all have rear fill and like it, but have never compared the two. Part of the problem with any advice over the internet is that everyone regurgitates some crap that someone else has told them, I think that is complete BS. I don't think this is even subjective...at least not to a mildly educated listener. How many high end home audio stores have you been to where they recommend running four speakers for playing back 2 channel audio? It NEVER happens yet in the car audio world everyday someone has to push this belief on other people. The real answer is to spend sometime in your car insuring that you have done the most to maximize your staging and response.

I do agree that you should do whatever makes you happy, but when the basis of a statement is that it sounds better with rear fill it is just wrong. I will stand by my previous statement and say that a car has an install problem if 2 channel audio sounds better with added rear fill.

mlstrass
12-21-2006, 03:42 PM
I couldn't disagree more. What I see is a lot of people recommending rear fill to add volume and give perceived surround sound. The truth is that more than 99% of these people have never sat in a truly well tuned front stage only vehicle. They all have rear fill and like it, but have never compared the two. Part of the problem with any advice over the internet is that everyone regurgitates some crap that someone else has told them, I think that is complete BS. I don't think this is even subjective...at least not to a mildly educated listener. How many high end home audio stores have you been to where they recommend running four speakers for playing back 2 channel audio? It NEVER happens yet in the car audio world everyday someone has to push this belief on other people. The real answer is to spend sometime in your car insuring that you have done the most to maximize your staging and response.

I do agree that you should do whatever makes you happy, but when the basis of a statement is that it sounds better with rear fill it is just wrong. I will stand by my previous statement and say that a car has an install problem if 2 channel audio sounds better with added rear fill.


But if that cheap rear fill gives them what they want, then that's the route they should go. Not everyone wants to spend the time/money to set up that killer front stage is all I'm saying. So there are alternatives.

And I don't believe anyone is saying that a decent set up with rear fill sounds better than a GOOD front stage, just that some have a rear fill set up that sounds good to them.


I do agree that you should do whatever makes you happy, but when the basis of a statement is that it sounds better with rear fill it is just wrong.

Again wrong in your eyes, or ears actually, but you can not tell me what "I" like. Some like Bose home audio, I think it's garbage, but I'd never tell anyone not to give it a listen as they might enjoy it.

I actually usually listen in 7 channel stereo at home, so I'm far from a purist. Did a lot of dance club stuff in the 80's and DJ'ed a little, so I'm just used to sound from all around.

I seriously wonder why all the car manufacturers spend so much time and money installing 6-10 speaker set ups in cars if it's technically "wrong". I heard a factory Boston system in a Chrysler 300 the other day and it sounded very nice, all 8 speakers I believe.

I wish the we could just all agree that there's more than one way to set up a system to meet the desired goal. Some want a KILLER front stage and some just want to fill the car with sound. Try to take that into consideration when offering advice as I really don't think a young kid putting in 3000watts worth of subs/amps is concerned about imaging, depth of stage, etc... he wants it loud so his friends can hear him a block away :D

///M5
12-21-2006, 04:05 PM
The biggest problem I have with your argument is that every single person I have ever heard promote rear fill has NEVER heard a truly well tuned front stage. In their case they are always promoting what they have and not what is really best, of course you see that a lot on some forums but I find it despicable. Even worse is when they recommend what they have read on some internet forum.

As for the cheap rear fill statement you made, we all know that if you just put that money into the fronts they will be louder & clearer than if you split the money up between the front and rears. Of course, I am making the assumption that in both scenarios the person doing the buying puts in the same diligence to make well thought out decisions in either case.

Lastly, I do agree there are more than one way to setup a system. You don't see me pushing SQ style enclosures for subs in any of my posts anywhere, but you will not see me implement anything other than one in any of my vehicles. When it comes to rear fill though, I can't idly stand by and watch people recommend what they have instead of what they would actually like if they had the chance to listen to it just once. I am a huge proponent of going out and actually listening to as much as you can before you buy.

reneeb7363
12-21-2006, 04:28 PM
I never said there is rear fill in a live performance. I elluded to the spacial cues of a live performance that can't often be correctly duplicated by a automobile's two channel setup. Limitations exist in the small interiors.

You mention that the band is infront of the listener at a concert. What about the audience? If you are mid row; there will be sounds from behind as well. All sounds within the concert hall give it it's feeling and adds to more for your senses to process. Rear fill can fool the brain into feeling that there is sound eminating from all angles. Home theatre 5.1 and 7.1 are successful for a reason. I'm a 2 channel person myself, but can see both sides of the discussion. Of course; all is dependant on recording technique, micing process, mixing and the intent of the artist.

do you realize you are arguing with a brick wall??? LOL!! These guys just don't want to hear it..I have argued until I am blue in the face and CANNOT BREATHE from laughing so hard! They compare LIVE performances and yet continue to dis-regard physics and the fact that sound echos. Studio recordings and LIVE performances are different. Live you hear all the spatial cues as they happen is a very real 3D environment. Some people try to re-create that in the car... now all of a sudden it is a bad thing???? Why, because of the limitations of a Studio? Any Motor vehicle is just too small to get the natural reflective sounds you hear at a concert, so please quit trying to use that excuse. It takes processing to acheive it and rear fill IS NOT (read: shouldn't be) in Stereo. and the volume should NOT be matched to the front, refleced sounds are attenuated until inaudible or otherwise cancelled.
said it before...it's better to agree to disagree on this one... some like it, some don't and NO ONE IS RIGHT! Period!!!!

have fun arguing... oh, and Jntar... those are just a few pics of proffesional studios..I am sure I can google and find a hundred more that DO use rear speakers! MOST studios are recording in L/R format because that is what the industry demands! Very few artists wish to exclude themselves from the 99% of people that arent obsessed with the quality, or quantity, of sound eminating from their vehicles. Look where we have come since I first started competeing (locally) in '85... evolution, It happens.

reneeb7363
12-21-2006, 04:35 PM
... OP said that he was listening to fm radio... that there proves it was all in his head. he was listening to music in 'stereo'


and of course women like renee are pro rear fill. i would like all women to be.


no pickup truck for me and no rear fill for me.

another sig-able post... nice one... that's funny! And I have never heard any man complain!

ngsm13
12-21-2006, 04:37 PM
Rear fill ***** balls.

Also, you don't get more than stereo sound via FM radio... you r-tard.

nG

goodstuff
12-21-2006, 04:58 PM
ok...first off let me start off by saying that I don't get the no rear fill guys...maybe that's because I have not heard a system with only fronts...
BUT... my set up is very different from most peoples...I have my 4x6 speakers in the front doors and another set of the same exact speakers that are in the trunk facing fowards...i.e towards the windshield....the speakers in the trunk are wired so that the right is on the left and left is right...what this does for me is (most of the time....depends on the recording) is make it so that the instruments sound like they are correctly placed on the soundstage.... it doesn't sound like you are sitting on the left side of the car, it sounds like you are sitting in the middle....but you still get stereo ( i.e if the sound pans back and forth quickly) from the fronts
I can't see, no matter how good the speakers are, or how they are aimed, how it would make it seem like you are sitting in the middle of the soundstage when you have speakers that are not equal distances to each other when you sit on either side of the car and not in the middle...I can see where your coming from when talking about how music is recorded with no rear fill in the studio but a car is not the same environment as a studio (try as we might, lol) hope that makes sense because it's tough to explain without pictures and or diagrams (which I'm too busy/lazy to take)

ramos
12-21-2006, 05:04 PM
ok...first off let me start off by saying that I don't get the no rear fill guys...maybe that's because I have not heard a system with only fronts...
BUT... my set up is very different from most peoples...I have my X speakers in the front doors and another set of the same exact speakers that are in the trunk facing fowards...i.e to wards the windshield....the speakers in the trunk are wired so that the right is on the left and left is right...what this does for me is (most of the time....depends on the recording) is make it so that the instruments sound like they are correctly placed on the sound stage.... it doesn't sound like you are sitting on the left side of the car, it sounds like you are sitting in the middle....but you still get stereo ( i.e if the sound pans back and forth quickly) from the fronts
I can't see, no matter how good the speakers are, or how they are aimed, how it would make it seem like you are sitting in the middle of the soundstage when you have speakers that are not equal distances to each other when you sit on either side of the car and not in the middle...I can see where your coming from when talking about how music is recorded with no rear fill in the studio but a car is not the same environment as a studio (try as we might, lol) hope that makes sense because it's tough to explain without pictures and or diagrams (which I'm too busy/lazy to take)
You lost me man :D I'm not trying to recreate the studio . Just the music :)

dawgdan
12-21-2006, 05:54 PM
I would urge all those who argue in favor of rear-fill to attend a local SQ competition, if possible. I was lucky enough to attend the IASCA World Finals this year, as it was held in my city. Wanna talk about SQ-oriented cars that sound amazing? All of the heavy hitters were there.

It happened to me a few years ago.. I used to be all in favor of SPL, then the mythical "SQL", and now it's all about SQ. Rear fill is for the birds. :)

James Bang
12-21-2006, 06:10 PM
i'd like to recreate a live performance w/o the 'echo'. i don't see why anyone would since there aren't any echoes when music is recorded. :eyebrow:

reneeb7363
12-21-2006, 06:22 PM
:wallbash: because it feels :wallbash: so :wallbash: **** :wallbash: GOOD!


microphones CAN record an echo! A Good recording has spatial queues and depth in the l/r stereo format so the recording does not sound FLAT/Dead- listen to the music from the 50's and early 60's-- yuck!


MOST studios are recording in L/R format because that is what the industry demands! Very few artists wish to exclude themselves from the 99% of people that arent obsessed with the quality, or quantity, of sound eminating from their vehicles.

and WHEN did I EVER state that you don't need a GREAT front soundstage FIRST!?! In this thread or the other. That should have been a known!

Johnny Drama
12-21-2006, 06:40 PM
You lost me man :D I'm not trying to recreate the studio . Just the music :)


He is saying that his front left and rear right see the same signal and the front right and rear left also see the same signal. Retarded if you ask me. He said that he still had stereo sound. He might, but it would be horrible.

Then he ranted on about center of car and blah, blah, but its all still like the time I judged that car with the mids and tweets mounted under the front seats firing forward...Doesnt work.

goodstuff
12-21-2006, 07:02 PM
I forgot to mention I have 6 1/2's in the rear deck and tweets on the dash these are wired normally....and your right what I described wouldn't really work good without the tweets and mids in there as well...I don't have speakers under my front seats that's retarded.

///M5
12-21-2006, 07:29 PM
I am sure your car sounds like complete and utter ***. More speakers playing the same frequencies does not equal better sound, in fact it is quite the opposite.

*refrains from stating that your avatar must be a self portrait

squeak9798
12-21-2006, 07:31 PM
Meh.

ngsm13
12-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Some of these people need to sit in a vehile WITH A PROPER front stage.

Come sit in my truck...

I'll even put rear fill in... with a switch on the amplifier... and blind-fold the person.

I'll switch the amp on and off... you won't tell a difference.

nG

DsrtJeeper
12-22-2006, 03:57 AM
do you realize you are arguing with a brick wall??? LOL!! These guys just don't want to hear it..I have argued until I am blue in the face and CANNOT BREATHE from laughing so hard! They compare LIVE performances and yet continue to dis-regard physics and the fact that sound echos. Studio recordings and LIVE performances are different. Live you hear all the spatial cues as they happen is a very real 3D environment. Some people try to re-create that in the car... now all of a sudden it is a bad thing???? Why, because of the limitations of a Studio? Any Motor vehicle is just too small to get the natural reflective sounds you hear at a concert, so please quit trying to use that excuse. It takes processing to acheive it and rear fill IS NOT (read: shouldn't be) in Stereo. and the volume should NOT be matched to the front, refleced sounds are attenuated until inaudible or otherwise cancelled.
said it before...it's better to agree to disagree on this one... some like it, some don't and NO ONE IS RIGHT! Period!!!!

have fun arguing... oh, and Jntar... those are just a few pics of proffesional studios..I am sure I can google and find a hundred more that DO use rear speakers! MOST studios are recording in L/R format because that is what the industry demands! Very few artists wish to exclude themselves from the 99% of people that arent obsessed with the quality, or quantity, of sound eminating from their vehicles. Look where we have come since I first started competeing (locally) in '85... evolution, It happens.

BINGO!!! We have a winner. I had to laugh at the poster who claims that autos have more reflections than a home listening room. I'd give anything for non parallel walls such as a car has. We won't even get into standing waves, wavelengths and corner loading. We talk about accurately reproducing the original event infront of us yet we have subs in the trunk??? I bet many of you can actually sense the locations of your subs if they're crossed over at 80hz. Sub bass frequencies are known to add a fullness to the sound along with spaciousness. All this coming from the rear. Go figure....:D

MBrock4u
12-22-2006, 04:41 AM
Well put. No one is saying that rear fill is better or not. Some like it some don't. The problem around here is, alot of the non rear fill guys like to shove it down our throat, and call eveybody morons for enjoying a little rear fill. It is too laugh!

BlackMaxima
12-22-2006, 04:55 AM
all i have to say is its personal preference.
some like it and some dont. again personal preference.
In my case i like rear fill and im going to have rear fill, its just not going to amplified
25W from the H/U for rear fill will do just fine.

AcidicDreams
12-22-2006, 05:28 AM
ok 4 pages into reading this thread I was amazed people where still arguing for rear fill... if you like it great, whatever. Just don't go touting how great it is for any other reason than you "think" you like it better. Any other argument you make is flat out wrong.

Music, from CD's and FM radio, only comes in stereo PERIOD. AM radio is MONO! 5.1 in the car makes no sense b/c you really shouldn't use your car as a movie theater and I shudder at the thought of properly tuning 5 separate speakers for music recorded for a 5.1 source...

AcidicDreams
12-22-2006, 05:34 AM
do you realize you are arguing with a brick wall??? LOL!! These guys just don't want to hear it..I have argued until I am blue in the face and CANNOT BREATHE from laughing so hard! They compare LIVE performances and yet continue to dis-regard physics and the fact that sound echos. Studio recordings and LIVE performances are different. Live you hear all the spatial cues as they happen is a very real 3D environment. Some people try to re-create that in the car... now all of a sudden it is a bad thing???? Why, because of the limitations of a Studio? Any Motor vehicle is just too small to get the natural reflective sounds you hear at a concert, so please quit trying to use that excuse. It takes processing to acheive it and rear fill IS NOT (read: shouldn't be) in Stereo. and the volume should NOT be matched to the front, refleced sounds are attenuated until inaudible or otherwise cancelled.
said it before...it's better to agree to disagree on this one... some like it, some don't and NO ONE IS RIGHT! Period!!!!

You can't properly "recreate" the surround feel. The source material for "rear fill" ISN'T ON THE CD! You are only pipping the stereo signal to the back of the car and playing it again...

That said if you like it go for it... Just don't try to say it's better or reproducing anything, you just like it better....

and yes, the front stage only people are RIGHT. There is only two channels of information on the CD, therefore rear fill is not the intended by the source and is changing the sound of the recording. Of course I have seen people advocate using deck power for metal because they enjoy the distortion, and who am I to tell them not to enjoy their squared sine waves.

ngsm13
12-22-2006, 05:40 AM
ok 4 pages into reading this thread I was amazed people where still arguing for rear fill... if you like it great, whatever. Just don't go touting how great it is for any other reason than you "think" you like it better. Any other argument you make is flat out wrong.

Music, from CD's and FM radio, only comes in stereo PERIOD. AM radio is MONO! 5.1 in the car makes no sense b/c you really should use your car as a movie theater and I shudder at the thought of properly tuning 5 separate channels for music recorded for a 5.1 source...

DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNAR!!!

Also, the challenge to sit in my vehicle blind-folded still stands!!!!

nG

AcidicDreams
12-22-2006, 06:04 AM
DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNAR!!!

Also, the challenge to sit in my vehicle blind-folded still stands!!!!

nG

I don't know if I'd want to be anywhere near you blindfolded...

but I'll take my prize now :)

AcidicDreams
12-22-2006, 06:07 AM
Next thing you know you'll have newbs advocating $300 RCA's, saying that too little power will blow your speakers, and that MAX power is an important spec.

ramos
12-22-2006, 07:25 AM
Well put. No one is saying that rear fill is better or not. Some like it some don't. The problem around here is, alot of the non rear fill guys like to shove it down our throat, and call eveybody morons for enjoying a little rear fill. It is too laugh!


And all I have been trying to say is that there is no rear channel in a stereo recording . I have my opinion of dislike for rear fill , where as you have your likes . I can agree to disagree on that part. :)

DFW40
12-22-2006, 10:35 AM
I like to switch the rear output of my HU with the fronts and that way I have rearfill up front and front fill in the back....sounds really awesome with my 13.1 dolby alpine.

///M5
12-22-2006, 10:51 AM
Even simpler in my book. I don't care about the topic at hand at all. What the problem is are people recommending and commenting on what they should do that haven't heard the other options. If someone who hasn't heard both a good front stage setup and another setup reads the first post and no-retort they will take it as fact, and it is not a fact it is a subjective statement made by someone who hasn't actually compared it with the alternative that has been bashed. This is actually the whole reason that you guys don't see me post here very often. I can't handle all of the internet boner responses to things as they completely **** me off.

If the original poster had said, I just listened to Pink Floyd on my system and a really well setup SQ system and to me I like the rear stage much better. I would have only posted a, "wow" and not commented. Since that wasn't the case it required more.

I find the pushing down the throat comment funny too since that was the original intent of your first post, but you were trying to force that us front stage only people are really missing something. Rather antagonistic and coming from someone who hasn't experienced a well tuned system also uneducated and shouldn't have been done in the first place.

99StangGt
12-22-2006, 10:54 AM
I dont have rear fill. I tried it once and it was ok. My worry is that the 2 12s in the trunk were screwing up those drivers in the package tray. Just seems like all that sub output would make those drivers screw up.

goodstuff
12-22-2006, 12:57 PM
I'd gladly take your challange Ng but I live in Massachusetts....actually I really would like to hear a front stage only vehicle....I'd let anybody sit in my car but I don't trust any of you...yeah 99StangGt I ported the arm rest in the back seat so when the seat is up it doesn't blow out the speakers in the rear deck...M5 I really don't care how you THINK my set up sounds....next you'll be telling us how these speakers you SAW were awesome because they LOOKED cool...don't knock it till you try it...

///M5
12-22-2006, 01:55 PM
I'd gladly take your challange Ng but I live in Massachusetts....actually I really would like to hear a front stage only vehicle....I'd let anybody sit in my car but I don't trust any of you...yeah 99StangGt I ported the arm rest in the back seat so when the seat is up it doesn't blow out the speakers in the rear deck...M5 I really don't care how you THINK my set up sounds....next you'll be telling us how these speakers you SAW were awesome because they LOOKED cool...don't knock it till you try it...

Your welcome to come hear either of mine anytime as well. :)

WhoSayWho?
12-22-2006, 02:01 PM
I have not read this thread. However, I am sure that I am the first to say this:

Rear fill is a waste of money.

That is all.

AAAAAAA
12-22-2006, 02:11 PM
drfunnepantz
^ This guy with his rearfill wired backassward is hillarious. He has no clue.

For people saying they like their rear occupants to hear the music and lyrics, obviously you havent been in any front stage vehicules to say that. Most front stage only guys usually run lots of power to their component set.

AcidicDreams
12-22-2006, 03:08 PM
I have not read this thread. However, I am sure that I am the first to say this:

Rear fill is a waste of money.

That is all.

Agreed

mlstrass
12-22-2006, 03:40 PM
I'll reiterate what "I" have said before. A lot of the younger guys want INSANE bass and some sound to go along with it. I don't feel those guys will spend the $$$ to do a proper front stage.

For them another option is a decent 4 channel amp and 4 coax's to keep up with the monster subs. It HAS to be better than the guys who are running only stock speakers with the killer sub set up.

I've never heard a killer front stage and have never posted negatively about it as I can't comment on what I've never heard.

M5 how far up north are you as I'm near the IL/WI border??

MY set up with rear fill gets VERY loud and plays clean and the sound still appears to come from the front, so I'm happy with it. Maybe it's a poor man's killer front stage :D

Only part of the "arguement" I don't buy is throwing comp winning SQ cars out as examples. How many of us have the time/money to duplicate that? Most are looking for decent sound and a good front stage OR a set up with rear fill can provide that. I did NOT say the most accurate or whatever, but it can sound good to the listener and that's usually the objective....

Anyone near Chicago who wants to hear a good rear fill set up give me a holler, and NO blindfolds involved ;)

CBFryman2
12-22-2006, 03:51 PM
even if it was made in 85 or 73 or whatever, albums have been digitally remastered

you guys are funny.

Your car stereo is stereophonic. Two channels.

99% of alblums out today are stereophonic or monophonic. Your average CD player cant even read or process 4 channel files.

FM radio cant even carry a 4 channel signal on a single frequincy band. 2 channels tops.

Try agian.

audiolife
12-22-2006, 03:57 PM
lol this thread is funny as hell. in any sq car that runs rear fill its tuned in such away to make the listening area sound larger and it is tuned, processed and even seen wings planted on head rests to block out any direct sound from rear fill. if you can tell you have rear fill it pulls your sound stage back toward the center of the car. also the reason why people might say left front and right rear play the same signal is just due to distance from the speakers and probably the opposite side rear disperses sound better from your seating position...also as far as pin pointing subs in back if you can pin point it you have it turned up too loud and haven't played with the phase.. in my truck my sub is x over at 78 Hz at 72 db per octave it pulls my sound stage back from in front of my bumper to about the front 1/4 of my hood and the only way you can tell where it is, is if i turn its gain up and its beating you in the back. some people will also say they can pin point it out because its above 50 Hz when its on by itself LOL in that regard you can go right on down the line and point out all of your speakers if they were playing by itself but have everything else going at the same time on a properly installed set up and by the miracle of god it will sound right when playing together........

///M5
12-22-2006, 04:47 PM
M5 how far up north are you as I'm near the IL/WI border??

Minneapolis. I'd rather have a ride in your station wagon than listen to your car though. :yumyum: If you get my way or vice versa we should do both and I'd be glad to give you a demo of my front stage at the same time. Afterwards we can discuss it over a beer or two. http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/5shots.gif

BlackMaxima
12-22-2006, 05:16 PM
Next thing you know you'll have newbs advocating $300 RCA's, saying that too little power will blow your speakers, and that MAX power is an important spec.



who wants to buy my RCA's for $300??

kublkmax
12-22-2006, 11:15 PM
Ok 7 pages of dribble. There have been some funny points on here. I think the first one I found funny was the dude that brought up comp cars and how in 97 they had rearfill. That those who were only running front did not compete. That was some funny stuff. And some thought that they could hear surround sound via fm source. Now that is why you should not drink and drive. If you like your rear fill that is cool.... Just don't try to sell that bs to the rest of us.

audiolife
12-22-2006, 11:31 PM
i had no rear fill in 97 i took 4th at sbn and 2nd at the mid west nationals and that car previously took 2nd in both iasca and usac world finals 3 years prior to that (it sat in a barn for that long lol)

only guy i ever recall using rearfill was mike mineo (spell check) and only reason i got to listen to his car was due to the fact he needed a pic of another camaro/firebird with a 350 tpi to show he switched his alt around. (he had motorized flaps on his head rest to block the sound) you couldnt point out the rear fill AT ALL either (he always finished 2nd to mark eldridge and retired after he and eldridge were beat by a pt cruiser named the grim reaper) . a proper front stage will imo (and many others) a natural rear fill in the car.

goodstuff
12-26-2006, 05:37 PM
If I turn my head sideways when i'm sitting in the drivers seat I can tell that there are speakers in the back but if I keep my head straight forward it sounds like it's all coming from the front... I have a car not a truck I don't think I could do what I do in a truck...

T3mpest
12-26-2006, 07:06 PM
BINGO!!! We have a winner. I had to laugh at the poster who claims that autos have more reflections than a home listening room. I'd give anything for non parallel walls such as a car has. We won't even get into standing waves, wavelengths and corner loading. We talk about accurately reproducing the original event infront of us yet we have subs in the trunk??? I bet many of you can actually sense the locations of your subs if they're crossed over at 80hz. Sub bass frequencies are known to add a fullness to the sound along with spaciousness. All this coming from the rear. Go figure....:D

First off cars do have more reflections. Last I checked, most listening rooms are filled with soft materials to absorb sound waves, in addition all drivers are placed on axis. A cars interior is hard plastic and glass, with most drivers placed off axis.

Secondly, I'll adress the subs from the back issue. Do you understand how ears localize sound? I don't think you do, so I'll go over it for you. Humans determine position aurally by phase/amplitude difference in both ears...if the wavelength is too long to fit in the car then we can't determine where the sound is coming from because the air will compress/rarify equally on both sides of our head, which means that both ears will hear the exact same thing...this happens usually below about 100Hz in a closed mid-sized sedan. This is why you can't "cornerload" in a car, you already have cabin gain in subbass frequencies, and it's all your getting. In a larger vehicle you'll get a higher cutoff frequency before the sounds localize. In a car, getting the correct amount of airspace upfront for a sub and stopping things from rattling, again, localizing the sound, is hard. Therefore using the way the human ears detect sound to our advantage is paramount. It's the same reason active setups can employ midbasses in the doors, midranges in the kicks and only have the tweets up high, and yet have still have ALL frequencies appear to come from eye level, despite only having frequencies from 1500hz and up or so even originating above your knees. Learning what works and what doesn't is the trick, and due to how humans hear sound, no amount of attenuation is going to help a full range rear fill succeed. By the time you do enough prcocessing to make it acceptable, you've gained nothing from doing it, especially the "echo" effect people like to think it adds. (cancellations and echos arent' same thing guys, sorry)

audiolife
12-26-2006, 11:49 PM
If I turn my head sideways when i'm sitting in the drivers seat I can tell that there are speakers in the back but if I keep my head straight forward it sounds like it's all coming from the front... I have a car not a truck I don't think I could do what I do in a truck...

rear fill if you even turn your head to hear it is still destroying your sound stage space its pulling it bach and bunching it up closer to the center. up front sound sounds like its on the front of the hood no restriction to the auto's width

headless
12-27-2006, 03:09 AM
LOL @ MBrock listening to surround on FM radio

Rear fill is total nonsense unless you have some real processing to push it. Amusingly, my old *** touch screen eclipse from 1991 had a DSP that computed echos for rear channels and only sent heavily crossed over and processed signals to the rear speakers. This worked great...sometimes. Other times it sounded like complete ****. Sending stereo sound mirroring your fronts to your rears is just plain bad ****. It makes no logical sense to do so. I've listened to the dark side of the moon in my car and some sounds DO sound like they are coming from way off to the sides and behind you, but it's got nothing to do with having speakers behind me (all that's behind me is my sub and the sounds played from 'behind' don't come into that freq range)

headless
12-27-2006, 03:11 AM
ok...first off let me start off by saying that I don't get the no rear fill guys...maybe that's because I have not heard a system with only fronts...
BUT... my set up is very different from most peoples...I have my 4x6 speakers in the front doors and another set of the same exact speakers that are in the trunk facing fowards...i.e towards the windshield....the speakers in the trunk are wired so that the right is on the left and left is right...what this does for me is (most of the time....depends on the recording) is make it so that the instruments sound like they are correctly placed on the soundstage.... it doesn't sound like you are sitting on the left side of the car, it sounds like you are sitting in the middle....but you still get stereo ( i.e if the sound pans back and forth quickly) from the fronts
I can't see, no matter how good the speakers are, or how they are aimed, how it would make it seem like you are sitting in the middle of the soundstage when you have speakers that are not equal distances to each other when you sit on either side of the car and not in the middle...I can see where your coming from when talking about how music is recorded with no rear fill in the studio but a car is not the same environment as a studio (try as we might, lol) hope that makes sense because it's tough to explain without pictures and or diagrams (which I'm too busy/lazy to take)


This post was so ****ing awesome, i had to quote it. LMFAO, you ****ing SWITCHED YOUR LEFT AND RIGHT CHANNELS?!?! but ONLY for the rear?!?!
I'm in tears over here. You need to learn about time alignment imo and for the love of god fix your system

T3mpest
12-27-2006, 05:04 AM
This post was so ****ing awesome, i had to quote it. LMFAO, you ****ing SWITCHED YOUR LEFT AND RIGHT CHANNELS?!?! but ONLY for the rear?!?!
I'm in tears over here. You need to learn about time alignment imo and for the love of god fix your system

at least he understands the complexities of the automotive environment, even if he took a non-sensical way to "fix" them.

While it is almost impossible to get in the center of the speakers, SQ cars do their best. This is why kickpanel locations are preferred over door panels, especially doors with high speaker locations. The kickpanel provides gets the speakers as far from the listener to the sides as they can, and the 2 distances are as close as equal as possible. When choosing mounting locations you always want to maximize path lengths, but mimimize path length differences.

AcidicDreams
12-27-2006, 05:12 AM
well it was a nice try.... but I can't believe how long people tried to argue for rear fill... I suppose it's because they have spent so long bragging about their rear speakers to friends that they'd have to take an ego hit taking them out...

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 05:35 AM
well it was a nice try.... but I can't believe how long people tried to argue for rear fill... I suppose it's because they have spent so long bragging about their rear speakers to friends that they'd have to take an ego hit taking them out...

ha ha that is probably true. but depending on the person they may actually like there rear fill. everyone has there preferance. i cant believe this thread has lasted this long.

AcidicDreams
12-27-2006, 05:57 AM
ha ha that is probably true. but depending on the person they may actually like there rear fill. everyone has there preferance. i cant believe this thread has lasted this long.

Well preference is one thing... like I said earlier, someone on here a few months ago was saying how much they liked the distortion of cheap coax's running on deck power. You like what you like and that is fine. I just can't beleive I was seeing newbies telling veterans that they where wrong and rear fill is superior for some reason...

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:03 AM
Well preference is one thing... like I said earlier, someone on here a few months ago was saying how much they liked the distortion of cheap coax's running on deck power. You like what you like and that is fine. I just can't beleive I was seeing newbies telling veterans that they where wrong and rear fill is superior for some reason...

lol if they would only take the time to research these things they would realize what was being said and wouldnt get an e-donkeypunch:eek:

AcidicDreams
12-27-2006, 06:10 AM
lol if they would only take the time to research these things they would realize what was being said and wouldnt get an e-donkeypunch:eek:

hehe... exactly... what was bothering me so much isn't that they liked it, which is fine. IT was that they where trying to argue it was superior based on horsesh*t reasoning while the veterans where spewing actual facts, proving they where "correct"....

ohh well.. this thread is on it's last legs unless some other newb wants to step in and start talking about how technically superior his rear fill setup is on FM radio....

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:14 AM
lol that would be great. considering how late it is and how dang bored i am.

phyphoestilic
12-27-2006, 06:20 AM
My rear fill plays FM radio from one head unit while my fronts play my CD from another head unit, it's great. The 2 songs (or rear are sometimes comercials) blend in perfectly. I love rear fill!!

AcidicDreams
12-27-2006, 06:25 AM
My rear fill plays FM radio from one head unit while my fronts play my CD from another head unit, it's great. The 2 songs (or rear are sometimes comercials) blend in perfectly. I love rear fill!!

;)

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:28 AM
My rear fill plays FM radio from one head unit while my fronts play my CD from another head unit, it's great. The 2 songs (or rear are sometimes comercials) blend in perfectly. I love rear fill!!

i tried to put your post in my sig with you as the original poster. how do i do that exactly

phyphoestilic
12-27-2006, 06:29 AM
i tried to put your post in my sig with you as the original poster. how do i do that exactly

u do the quote thingy like u just did, and copy and paste it into ur sig, its not rocket science. lawl ;)

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:34 AM
smart ***

LinxuS
12-27-2006, 06:35 AM
Taking out my rear fill speakers tomorrow :rolleyes:
At first I left my gains down, but now I can't stand any rear fill at all. The speakers are just loud rattlers now so I'll be selling them.

phyphoestilic
12-27-2006, 06:38 AM
smart ***

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:42 AM
do you ever wonder what it would be like with out 6x9's waisting space in the rear of your car. well ive got the awnser send them to me because i have a wall socket ready to wreck havoc upon you oval lovers. hehehehe ill make you a tape of it lol

phyphoestilic
12-27-2006, 06:44 AM
do you ever wonder what it would be like with out 6x9's waisting space in the rear of your car. well ive got the awnser send them to me because i have a wall socket ready to wreck havoc upon you oval lovers. hehehehe ill make you a tape of it lol

my stock came with 4" midbass in the back :p: and 4" components in the front :crap:

mike dressure
12-27-2006, 06:49 AM
ill make a video of anything but 5 1/4's and 6 1/2's. cant see letting them go to waste. anything else ill be more then happy to play pyro with lol. did your car come with adapter plates or whas that a factory cut 4" hole

phyphoestilic
12-27-2006, 06:54 AM
ill make a video of anything but 5 1/4's and 6 1/2's. cant see letting them go to waste. anything else ill be more then happy to play pyro with lol. did your car come with adapter plates or whas that a factory cut 4" hole

factory, actaully it was designed very well I was impressed, it was in a sealed enclosure about .25cft and it sounded great, had to switch out cuse i fuaxed up the tweeters, midbass's still work so im not gonna let them go. ;)

WheresTheButta
12-27-2006, 01:29 PM
My reason for rear fill is called convertible. When you're going 70 mph down a highway with the top down, the people in the back of the car can't even hear the words to the song. In my situation it is a must.

audiolife
12-27-2006, 01:30 PM
My reason for rear fill is called convertible. When you're going 70 mph down a highway with the top down, the people in the back of the car can't even hear the words to the song. In my situation it is a must.

booohicky