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nebraskaz71
12-06-2006, 04:23 PM
Hey I know this crap gets asked all the time but I can't help it. I have a 98 gmc sierra and I listen to primarily rock/alternative stuff with very little rap. I currently have 2 10" ID subs on a jbl 600 sealed. Up front I have cdt 61a on a crystal CAM 200.2 amp. It sounds good but the cdts seem a lil dull or something to me. I'm told that amp does 125x2 at 4ohm which is what its at now or it can do 200x2 at 2ohm. Could I get another set of components wired into the same amp to make a 2ohm load and almost double the power from it for a second set of speakers. Also is combining different brands of components bad? I was thinking about getting the crystal sscs put in my doors and moving the cdts to the kicks or vice versa so that I have two sets of speakers up front. Maybe that would fill my rock needs? thanks in advance

BTW I **** with audio stuff so dumb down your replies for lol

ramos
12-06-2006, 04:41 PM
Gonna be a pain in the butt to get to sound decent with all those drivers my man . What exactly is lacking in your current setup ? What do you mean by dull ? :)

Rich B
12-06-2006, 04:45 PM
Just add a small amp to drive your tweeters, freeing up your present amp to drive just the mids.

Probably 40w to 60w would be enough.

nebraskaz71
12-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Its hard to explain but it just doesn't seem really loud and clear. I mean its sounds decent but I have higher hopes. I can't feel the music in my chest at all. Now I know differ sub/box setup would help with that but I honestly think that the stock bose speakers in my tahoe are louder then these cdts. I have the gain about 1/4-1/2 up and I believe its set at 80hz

Notwerk
12-06-2006, 04:55 PM
I don't see how power is going to affect this at all. He has more than enough power for any speaker. No, you don't need another amp. And adding more speakers is only going to complicate things and introduce new issues.

If it sounds dull, amplifying a dull sound isn't going to make things any less dull. I'd take a good look at equalization and crossover points. Set the EQ flat for now and see how it sounds. Compare it against a setup you think sounds good. See if you can EQ it to sound like that.

I'm assuming you're using passives on the components, so check where you have them crossed over with the sub. If they're crossed over too high, that might be making them sound dull.

If all of that is OK, I'd say maybe CDTs aren't for you. Try listening to some different speakers and get an idea of what you like. If those are CDT silks, I'll wager you'd probably be happier with something that has a hard dome or more aggressive mid. Swapping out to the Crystal SSCS for your front stage might be the fix, but first, see if it's something in your tuning and setup. And don't run CDT and Crystals. One or the other. You don't need two sets of components up front.

nebraskaz71
12-06-2006, 05:06 PM
Its just the standard tweets nothing was upgraded. Got them from thezeb.com a yr or so ago. I'll try adjusting more but it never seems to make a big difference. I'm not real good with tuning but either way so far I havn't got it the way I would expect.

Instead of two sets of speakers if adjusting doesn't work maybe I could sell these and go to something in the $250-325 on the same amp. I would of liked some image dynamic chameleons 6.5s 2ohm with my 200watts per side but man you can't find them for under 500 aynmore ;) Biggest problem is there are basically no shops around here to listen to decent stuff and I dont know people locally to listen too.

Notwerk
12-06-2006, 05:18 PM
Yeah, it can be tough to find places to do some listening, I know. But you'd be surprised, sometimes. Try dropping a line to some big brands, like:

Focal
MB Quart
JL Audio
Boston Acoustics
Polk
Alpine
Kicker (particularly the SS components)

And see if they have someone that can help you out. If you hear Focals and love them, then I know that what you're looking for a is hard-dome, something bright. If you like the Kickers, then you probably prefer something more mellow. You kind of have to define your taste for speakers. See, CDT is known for being mellow and not terribly detailed (some will argue this). It may be that Focal or MB Quart are more your cup of tea.

If we know what you like, then we can direct you to some other options without flying completely blind.

springy101
12-06-2006, 05:41 PM
try to hear some rainbow components, i have the slc265's and they sound great. i bought em used paired with an 80w x2 amp for $160 from a forum member and couldnt be happier.

Torgus
12-06-2006, 05:46 PM
ok feeling it in your chest is from SUBWOOFERS. there is no component set that you will EVER feel in your chest. they arn't made to do that. make your ears bleed yes. thumping in your chest no.

my CDTs are very bright and clear....

is your gain set correctly or did you half *** it?
tweeters positioned correctly?
doors deadened?

if you want REALLy bright get a metal tweeter sound buy some titanium tweets from CDT. silk are for SQ and better at imaging. metal tweeters make bright harsh annoying sound imo.
if you want more midbass buy a midbass driver.

what kind of HU do you have? and can you mess with an EQ or can you turn turn your treble/bass up and down. an correctly set eq can make a WORLD of difference.

ramos
12-06-2006, 05:49 PM
I don't know about that , strong mid and midbass can pound on your chest :)

springy101
12-06-2006, 05:56 PM
ok feeling it in your chest is from SUBWOOFERS. there is no component set that you will EVER feel in your chest. they arn't made to do that. make your ears bleed yes. thumping in your chest no.

my CDTs are very bright.

is your gain set correctly or did you half *** it?
tweeters positioned correctly?
doors deadened?

if you want bright as in metal tweeter sound buy some titanium tweets from CDT. silk are for SQ and better at imaging. metal tweeters make bright harsh annoying sound imo.
actually i never felt the punch in my chest really from subs, its all been from my mids. IIRC that kick you feel in the chest is like 100-200hz which is midbass, not subbass

Torgus
12-06-2006, 06:06 PM
turn off you sub amps and try and find that chest feeling.

the feeling is caused from what?
air pressure levels changing in your car from the speaker's cone moving the air in your car's compartment.
your telling me your front midrange speakers move enough to create noticable phsyical pressure on your chest? they must have alot of excursion...

edit: this guy has midrange speakers. not midbass. i suppose if you have a strong pounding midbass driver you could feel something. maybe two of those m6s getting a buck fifty each or something...but from a midrange no way.

springy101
12-06-2006, 06:14 PM
my sub doesnt really do that, i have a trunk so that might be part of it but when i installed my comps i definitely felt it more.

nebraskaz71
12-06-2006, 07:23 PM
The doors are completely lined with Raamat also. I know I wont completely feel the pound but in general it just doesn't seem to have a lot to it. I dont know the audio terms that well but from what it sounds like I do want something more detailed or brighter. I really want the guitar and drums to stand out more if that helps haha. I know I'm not much help here.

Torgus
12-06-2006, 07:51 PM
Do you have an EQ??
Are your gains set correctly??

nebraskaz71
12-06-2006, 08:45 PM
I just have the amp and an alpine 9805 h/u. The gains are probably not perfect. I dont know how to set those perfect and I dont have the lil tester thingy for it. I put them up a lil more than 1/4 way on the amp where it sounded better. My h/u is 4 volt if that helps any.

Torgus
12-06-2006, 09:14 PM
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps_pages.php?page_id=30
goto radioshack buy a multimeter. return multimeter later that day.

Notwerk
12-07-2006, 01:06 AM
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps_pages.php?page_id=30
goto radioshack buy a multimeter. return multimeter later that day.

I don't see how that tutorial is of any use unless he has one of the JL audio amps. You'd need an o-scope, not a DMM, to find clipping (unless you had a handy chart, like the one JL provides). You can set your gains pretty well by ear. It's not perfect, but honestly, it really doesn't have to be. Just err on the side of caution and you'll be fine. Coming up one or two watts short of a system's potential isn't really going to be audible. Too much power, on the other hand, can burn a speaker out.

And yes, proper midbass can and will give you that chest thump. MB Quarts have done that for me, I just can't take the tweeter. And yes, two way sets. No dedicated midbass. I suppose CDTs might struggle with that, but not all speakers do. I can say for certain that Quart premiums don't need a dedicated midbass to pound your chest. And no, in two way sets, the mid woofer is not a "mid range." It's a midbass playing into mid range. Dedicated midranges are usually between 3-4 inches, sometimes smaller. You aren't going to see any 6.5 inch dedicated midranges in two-way component sets.

And no, silks aren't "for SQ." This really depends on preference and install. Many, many competitors have been very successful with metal-dome tweets. For a long time, MB Quarts' Qs ruled the roost in SQ. I don't personally like them, but I don't think that you can make a blanket statement about all metal tweets being harsh and annoying and silks being "for SQ and staging." I certainly have a preference for silks, but that's because its easier to get a smooth sound without a lot of fabrication. You could do well with metal-domes, if you were willing to do a lot of fabrication work to get them a bit off axis and mitigate some of the brightness. Not always an option, so I think it's easier to get a good sound with silks in out-of-the-box applications. But technically, metal-domes should be superior. Just takes a lot of handywork.

And I doubt his problem has anything to do with subs. Two Image Dynamics subs. Definitely not lacking in that area.

And if the problem is a dull tone, I don't think levels have much to do with it, either. If the speakers are loud and the sound is dull, it's not the levels.

There's an outside shot that it's the crossover points, but if the tweeters sound dull to his ears too, that can't be the issue if he's on passives. Well, unless CDT doesn't know how to design a passive.

I think it's worth playing around with. Why spend money if you don't have to? But something tells me the CDT sound just doesn't agree with Nebraska. He wouldn't be the first to think they sound dull.

nebraskaz71
12-07-2006, 09:36 AM
I do have a feelin from what everyone has said that cdt just isn't for me. I wish I coud listen to other stuff here. Only thigns here at shops are jl and alpine though :(

Torgus
12-07-2006, 10:34 AM
I don't see how that tutorial is of any use unless he has one of the JL audio amps. You'd need an o-scope, not a DMM, to find clipping (unless you had a handy chart, like the one JL provides). You can set your gains pretty well by ear. It's not perfect, but honestly, it really doesn't have to be. Just err on the side of caution and you'll be fine. Coming up one or two watts short of a system's potential isn't really going to be audible. Too much power, on the other hand, can burn a speaker out.

And yes, proper midbass can and will give you that chest thump. MB Quarts have done that for me, I just can't take the tweeter. And yes, two way sets. No dedicated midbass. I suppose CDTs might struggle with that, but not all speakers do. I can say for certain that Quart premiums don't need a dedicated midbass to pound your chest. And no, in two way sets, the mid woofer is not a "mid range." It's a midbass playing into mid range. Dedicated midranges are usually between 3-4 inches, sometimes smaller. You aren't going to see any 6.5 inch dedicated midranges in two-way component sets.

And no, silks aren't "for SQ." This really depends on preference and install. Many, many competitors have been very successful with metal-dome tweets. For a long time, MB Quarts' Qs ruled the roost in SQ. I don't personally like them, but I don't think that you can make a blanket statement about all metal tweets being harsh and annoying and silks being "for SQ and staging." I certainly have a preference for silks, but that's because its easier to get a smooth sound without a lot of fabrication. You could do well with metal-domes, if you were willing to do a lot of fabrication work to get them a bit off axis and mitigate some of the brightness. Not always an option, so I think it's easier to get a good sound with silks in out-of-the-box applications. But technically, metal-domes should be superior. Just takes a lot of handywork.

And I doubt his problem has anything to do with subs. Two Image Dynamics subs. Definitely not lacking in that area.

And if the problem is a dull tone, I don't think levels have much to do with it, either. If the speakers are loud and the sound is dull, it's not the levels.

There's an outside shot that it's the crossover points, but if the tweeters sound dull to his ears too, that can't be the issue if he's on passives. Well, unless CDT doesn't know how to design a passive.

I think it's worth playing around with. Why spend money if you don't have to? But something tells me the CDT sound just doesn't agree with Nebraska. He wouldn't be the first to think they sound dull.

fine so buy an oscope at radioshack too. who cares your going to return it all anways. i guess i assume people have that stuff all lieing aroudn as i have had my whole life...
so...
i'v never gotten midbass thump in my chest.
whenever anyone says listen to my new speakers they are awesome i always take the fuse out of their sub amp. it's amazing how one's perception of their interior speakers change once the bass woofers are removed...i guess i use the wrong speakers for midbass thump...and i have listened to many systems with many different component sets too weird...any suggestions on how i would be able to get that thump? it sounds interesting. my pro 60s didn't my CDTs didn't my Alpine's didn't. my friends MBs don't but i don't know what series he has probably cheap 200 ones...i mean **** $600 boston's don't give me a thump in my chest WTF!!!

if the speakers are loud but the sound is dull you need to correctly set your EQ imo. a properly set EQ can make up for alot with a sub standard speaker...but that is just what i'v found in my experience...

oh just for clarification your saying i have no midrange woofer? just a midbass that plays a little into my midrange and tweeter?

nebraskaz71
12-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Just for clarification the speakers are not as loud as I would think they could be. Loud kinda but real loud no.

ramos
12-07-2006, 11:30 AM
Just for clarification the speakers are not as loud as I would think they could be. Loud kinda but real loud no.



That's what I was looking for . How do you have yur current components mounted ? :)

Torgus
12-07-2006, 01:18 PM
so...do your speakers distort at high volume levels?
what do you have your CDTs Xover at?
also assuming your gain is set correctly teh amp makes 125rms at 14.4. which if you have your subs hitting away your batt voltage is probably dropping into the 12s. so you'd really only be throwing around 100rms or less at them. just something to think about as they can handle a steady 150 with no problem from my experience.
i got mine Xed at 80 now because my new subs are in the mail however i don't turn it up loud or they will distort...usually i have them at 100 and throw 165RMS at them and they get loud as ****.

at the end of the day and no matter what you do with your eq, amp, headunit, etc. you could always buy new speakers.

nebraskaz71
12-07-2006, 02:27 PM
They are in stock door locations with tweet in stock location. They are crossed at like 90hz or somethin around there. They dotn distort that i've noticed. As far as voltage I have a digital gauge and its never dropped below 14.2 volt. It does have optima red top battery and 105 amp alt. Today it was 0 degrees out so I had 14.7 volts with stereo cranked up after truck warmed up insde.

Notwerk
12-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Try crossing them down ( I know this is a bit extreme) to 60hz and see how they sound. If they're bottoming out, slowly raise it until they don't. See how that goes. 90 hz sounds just a touch too high for me.

Power isn't the issue. Whether they get 100 or 200 watts won't really matter. It's a barely audible difference either way. It won't have any affect on how the speakers sound. A full 100 watts can cause hearing damage over time. For the same reasons, gains are unlikely to be an issue.

Torgus
12-07-2006, 03:34 PM
Try crossing them down ( I know this is a bit extreme) to 60hz and see how they sound. If they're bottoming out, slowly raise it until they don't. See how that goes. 90 hz sounds just a touch too high for me.

Power isn't the issue. Whether they get 100 or 200 watts won't really matter. It's a barely audible difference either way. It won't have any affect on how the speakers sound. A full 100 watts can cause hearing damage over time. For the same reasons, gains are unlikely to be an issue.


your saying giving a speaker double the power will make no difference? or at least a barely audible one? i'm very confused.

edit: The biggest sound improvement i noticed was when i upgraded my HU. eclipse 3424 to cd5000. it sounded like complete crap at 1st with the new HU. then i adjusted the EQ and ****! They went from flat with zero midbass to sounding very...well they sound very good, alot better then they ever did with my old HU, those who ride in my car often enough agree as well...thats all i know. If you can mess with your EQ, that is if you have one, give it a shot. assuming you know what you are changing that is...

ramos
12-07-2006, 03:40 PM
They are in stock door locations with tweet in stock location. They are crossed at like 90hz or somethin around there. They dotn distort that i've noticed. As far as voltage I have a digital gauge and its never dropped below 14.2 volt. It does have optima red top battery and 105 amp alt. Today it was 0 degrees out so I had 14.7 volts with stereo cranked up after truck warmed up insde.



I would try deadening and sealing up the doors before you get new speakers . You would be surprised what a difference it can make :)

nebraskaz71
12-07-2006, 03:48 PM
The doors are deadened with Rammat ;)

Notwerk
12-07-2006, 04:22 PM
your saying giving a speaker double the power will make no difference? or at least a barely audible one? i'm very confused.

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying and I've explained it several times before in previous posts. And if your headunit made such a big improvement, something was hideously wrong with the previous one. Well, unless you needed a lot of sound processing. But this is going a bit off topic.


I'd read that you matted when you previously mentioned it, Nebraska. Honestly, it looks to me like you have everything put together fairly well. Try what I said about the crossovers and see if that helps any. I'm afraid that if it doesn't, it might just be the speakers. I can't see that you've done anything incorrectly, and I can't really see any weaknesses in the gear, either. Might just be that the gear isn't suited to your preferences.

nebraskaz71
12-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Thanks everyone. I'll attempt the adjusting when I get time and if it still aint where I want then I think i'm gonna try some rainbows!

mlstrass
12-09-2006, 01:38 PM
I'll go against the grain and suggest adding some loud rear fill coax's. I run 2 sets of AA poly mids up front with the Vifa tweets and it sounds sweet and will punch you in the chest. But for days when I want to get stupid loud I hit the toggle switch to activate the rear amp/REV's and it's insanely loud and clean :D

nebraskaz71
12-09-2006, 01:44 PM
I have no rear fill at all. Shop disconnected my rear speakers when the components went in because all thats in the back of these trucks are 4x6s

ravendarat
12-09-2006, 01:49 PM
Here is a wild suggestion that might work for ya. Try to hook your front speakers up backwards so they are out of phase with your subwoofers. You might be getting some strange cancelation. Its worth a shot, and easy to do and reverse.