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View Full Version : Anybody notice Pioneer HU's LPF slope cant be turned off



suleman36
12-06-2006, 01:06 AM
I noticed that the LPF on the Pioneer HU's cannot be set to pass or off. This whould mean that the lpf on the HU cannot be turned off to allow us to use the amps lpf crossover. I know that you are only suppose to use one crossover per line.

My amps crossovers on the sub channel is preset to 24db octave and i have my HU crossover options only from -18db, -12db or -6db.

Right now my 780 is set to 18db @ 80hz and my amp is set at 24db @ 80hz and im really worried that this is not setup right altough it sounds ok for now.

Any experts on this ?

Louisiana_CRX
12-06-2006, 01:09 AM
yeah using double crossover will screw up your sound making crazy slopes...that is one thing that sux about pioneers...

Motovet
12-06-2006, 03:08 AM
yeah using double crossover will screw up your sound making crazy slopes...that is one thing that sux about pioneers...

Not the only thing though....

ultimate157
12-06-2006, 03:23 AM
Are you using both your front and rear preouts? You could get around the LPF on the HU by not using the sub preout.

That is if you arn't using both the front + rears.

jacka
12-06-2006, 04:36 AM
Are you using both your front and rear preouts? You could get around the LPF on the HU by not using the sub preout.

That is if you arn't using both the front + rears.

thats interesting, never thought of that.

coolahan
12-06-2006, 06:49 AM
Ownt.

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 06:53 AM
turn your pre-out to full... how hard is that?

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 07:45 AM
i have the same problem and the same HU. i would rather use the x-over on my JL 500/1 bc its 24 dB/octave (vs. 18) but since i cant turn the LPF to pass thru on the HU, i have both set at 80.

i like having sub control so i wouldnt use the rear output, even though it is unused, but should i turn the x-over on the JL 500/1 to pass thru?

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 09:32 AM
i have the same problem and the same HU. i would rather use the x-over on my JL 500/1 bc its 24 dB/octave (vs. 18) but since i cant turn the LPF to pass thru on the HU, i have both set at 80.

i like having sub control so i wouldnt use the rear output, even though it is unused, but should i turn the x-over on the JL 500/1 to pass thru?


SET YOUR PRE-OUTS TO FULL. IF ITS A OLDER UNIT SET IT TO EXTERNAL !!!

**** noobs... :slap:

it even tells you in the manual how to set it. guess noobs cant read either...

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 09:39 AM
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h184/CARMEKANIK/new-1-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h184/CARMEKANIK/corel.jpg

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 10:45 AM
:)

suleman36
12-06-2006, 11:58 AM
Your pioneer model your using may have this feature but the ones we are talking about does not. Most of us have the 2005 and up models.

JohnnyChuttz
12-06-2006, 12:02 PM
They all have it. Even the 880PRS has the option to turn off the LPF. Its in the set of menu options when the unit is off.

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 12:07 PM
**** noobs... :slap:

it even tells you in the manual how to set it. guess noobs cant read either...

i dont know if this is true or not, but who cares, this guy's a f*ckin tool.

nVRuckus
12-06-2006, 12:10 PM
what unit do you have? I dont seem to have that problem with my P770MP

suleman36
12-06-2006, 12:12 PM
I have the 780mp and havent really found the menu to set my LPF to off.

nVRuckus
12-06-2006, 12:18 PM
on mine the one to set it to up(right) and down(left) if you push the button in on the remote it turns it off.

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 12:43 PM
I have the 780mp and havent really found the menu to set my LPF to off.

i have the 7800 so we're in the same boat. i'm gonna call pioneer's support line and see if there's a way on the 780 or 7800.

i'd like to further point out that BASSMEKANIK is a tool by noting that a search of the deh-p7800mp manual (in pdf format) for the word 'full,' as in 'set your pre-outs to full' returns zero results.

it must **** to go out on a limb using 48 pt font, taking pictures of his HU, and scanning parts of his own user's manual to paste on his response only to find out he's wrong.

this is especially the case given that, for an encore, BASSMEKANIK showed us all what a valuable part of these forums he is by stating: "guess noobs cant read either"

the point is this: there are stupid questions, and this wasn't one of 'em.

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 01:02 PM
i just spoke to someone at pioneer with 25 years of experience as an installer and he told me with 100% certainty that on the 7800, there is no way to turn of the LPF.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 01:47 PM
I cant believe they put so many useless features on a HU and put hpf on every preout but dont give you the option to set the LPF to pass. This is a big problem considering most amps have built in crossovers already.

I guess im going to sell my 780 and find me a better HU with this feature.

Frankie, me and you have a similar setup.

I have a jl 12w6v2 and a 500/1

ultimate157
12-06-2006, 02:15 PM
So, you guys never answered my question ... are you using your other two pre outs?

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 02:27 PM
So, you guys never answered my question ... are you using your other two pre outs?

i'm not using my rear output. i assume ur asking bc i could set the rear HPF to pass thru, and then x-over the sub on the sub amp itself.

however, and i am totally unclear on this, but wouldnt that send the sub amp the entire frequency spectrum and make it less efficient? or does it still just have to worry about the frequencies it actually has to produce after being cutoff ?

i know a tech rep at morel told me that by crossing over my front HPF at the HU, so the signal sent to the amp was only 80Hz and up, would make the amp much more efficient since its the low freq stuff that takes the most power....

i am half right or totally wrong?

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 02:35 PM
I cant believe they put so many useless features on a HU and put hpf on every preout but dont give you the option to set the LPF to pass. This is a big problem considering most amps have built in crossovers already.

I guess im going to sell my 780 and find me a better HU with this feature.

Frankie, me and you have a similar setup.

I have a jl 12w6v2 and a 500/1

this entire time, i have had BOTH the LPF on the HU AND the amp set to 80 Hz. The guy told me this is gonna create all sorts of phase shift problems.

i am gonna go out to my car when i am done studying for law finals (so that should be in a few weeks) and turn the x-over on the JL amp off.

i admit that despite reading a few articles on it, i am not entirely clear on the concept of phase and phase shift. the subwoofer controls on the 7800 have a phase shift control where the sub points down or up, i have mine pointing down bc it sounds better than pointing up, but i dont yet comprehend that sh*t.

i can find a loophole in the federal rules of evidence to allow comments made out of court to be admitted despite serious obstacles, but i cant understand at least 5 of the articles on bcae1

suleman36
12-06-2006, 03:08 PM
I tried setting the the lpf on the JL amp to off but didnt like the way it sounded. So i changed it back to 12db @ 80hz on the amp and it sounded better. I even tried it at 24db @ 80hz but it brought more distortion. Probably because of the HU LPF being on aswell more then likely.

I have a Alpine 9813 which the lpf and the hpf all are passable aka set to off. I guess ill have to sacrifice the 24 bit burr brown dac for the alpines other option or find me a Pioneer HU that is as nice as my 780 with that option of setting the LPF to off. I really love the 16 band EQ on the pioneer and the 24 bit burr brown dac which sound amazing but with the LPF crossover situation im not so sure about it.

What do you guys suggest ?

ultimate157
12-06-2006, 04:30 PM
i'm not using my rear output. i assume ur asking bc i could set the rear HPF to pass thru, and then x-over the sub on the sub amp itself.

however, and i am totally unclear on this, but wouldnt that send the sub amp the entire frequency spectrum and make it less efficient? or does it still just have to worry about the frequencies it actually has to produce after being cutoff ?

i know a tech rep at morel told me that by crossing over my front HPF at the HU, so the signal sent to the amp was only 80Hz and up, would make the amp much more efficient since its the low freq stuff that takes the most power....

i am half right or totally wrong?

I'm pretty sure that the crossovers do their job before amplification, because from an engineering standpoint on a amplifier, it would be so ridiculously inefficient to amplify then crossover.

Not to mention that the crossover in an amplifier would have to be VERY beafy to handle an amplified signal vs an 2v - 8v input signal.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 06:25 PM
actually not true.
people are so misled by media hype and advertising about DACs.
a "24 bit" DAC is actually 16 bits to be accurate, with 8 bits overlap. The original source material is only 16 bits as well.
You can't hear teh difference between a 24 bit DAC and a 1 bit DAC in a car anyway. You can't even hear 1% distortion from amplifiers in a car, and the speakers will produce more than the amplifiers will at that.
There comes a point when you need to pay more attention to reality than what's on paper.

Guess i will be installing my 9813 very soon...

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 06:44 PM
i have the 7800 so we're in the same boat. i'm gonna call pioneer's support line and see if there's a way on the 780 or 7800.

i'd like to further point out that BASSMEKANIK is a tool by noting that a search of the deh-p7800mp manual (in pdf format) for the word 'full,' as in 'set your pre-outs to full' returns zero results.

it must **** to go out on a limb using 48 pt font, taking pictures of his HU, and scanning parts of his own user's manual to paste on his response only to find out he's wrong.

this is especially the case given that, for an encore, BASSMEKANIK showed us all what a valuable part of these forums he is by stating: "guess noobs cant read either"

the point is this: there are stupid questions, and this wasn't one of 'em.






to much of deh butt secks??? look a lil red in tha pic bro. every pioneer has it unless you are using something from the 80's . so stfu noob and dont get mad at me because you cant read.

acold7dusta
12-06-2006, 06:48 PM
on my dads i think you can go into standby and change the slope 0 6 12 18 ( i think) you would pick 0

BTW he has the 6800

squeak9798
12-06-2006, 07:01 PM
I noticed that the LPF on the Pioneer HU's cannot be set to pass or off. This whould mean that the lpf on the HU cannot be turned off to allow us to use the amps lpf crossover. I know that you are only suppose to use one crossover per line.

My amps crossovers on the sub channel is preset to 24db octave and i have my HU crossover options only from -18db, -12db or -6db.

Right now my 780 is set to 18db @ 80hz and my amp is set at 24db @ 80hz and im really worried that this is not setup right altough it sounds ok for now.

Any experts on this ?


You can certainly use them both. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using both the headunit's & amplifier's crossovers at the same time. In fact, many people intentionally use both to obtain the specific sound they are needing.

What it comes down to is the resulting sound. That is all that's important.

In the case of the Pioneer and it's ability or lack thereof to set the LPF to "pass"....it doesn't really matter. IIRC the lowpass frequency can be set as high as 200hz. In which case, the headunit's xover point is high enough out of the subwoofer's bandwidth that it won't really affect the sound much if at all. For example, if your amplifier has 24db/oct slopes and you have the amplifier's lowpass xover set to, say, 70hz....the signal going to be attenuated by -48db at 210hz. So having the xover set to 200hz is only going to be affecting a signal that's already being attenuated by over -40db. Not a big deal. So, if you only want to use the amp's xover....just set the HU's xover to 200hz. Badda-bing badda-boom.

But, as I said....you certainly can use them both in conjunction with each other (i.e. having them both set to 80hz). The resulting slope will be affected....but not inherently in a negative way. Like I said...many people do this intentionally. The only thing that's important is what obtains the best sound.

If using them both sounds the best (and given some of the previous postings...it possibly is?) then you are good to go and have nothing to worry about.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 07:32 PM
How whould I be able to use a 24db slope like what is offered on my amp. It is not adjustable on my amp.

I understand the crossover freq part but what about the HU 18db slope and then the amps 24db slope ?

That adds up to -42db slope @ 80hz

Sorry this is confusing.

squeak9798
12-06-2006, 07:52 PM
How whould I be able to use a 24db slope like what is offered on my amp. It is not adjustable on my amp.

As I explained...if you only want to use the amplifier's xover (which is apparently 24db/oct), then you set the HU xover as high as it will go which will effectively push it ("it" being the HU's xover) out of the range that "matters".


I understand the crossover freq part but what about the HU 18db slope and then the amps 24db slope ?

That adds up to -42db slope @ 80hz



Kinda sorta.

It ultimately depends on the type of filter, how they designate the "crossover point", etc etc.

But, for an easy example......lets say that everything is the same except for the slope and they both use the common designation of the crossover point as -3db. If you set them both to 80hz....then yes you would yield a -42db/oct slope and at 80hz the signal would be -6db down rather than -3db.

jacka
12-06-2006, 07:53 PM
like squeak said you set the HU's crossover point high enough so that it won't really affect the sound at all, i.e. 200hz. slope won't matter much when up at 200 hz if its already being attentuated by the amp. hopefully that made some sense

nevermind me, just look above.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 07:55 PM
That defeats the purpose of using a 24db octave slope @ 80hz and then setting your HPF at 12db @ 100hz for a good roll off.

My point is that this can affect your system rolloff etc... Just wish i could use one or the other and call it 24db @ 80 hz or 18db @ 80hz etc.......

Not 42db @ 80hz !

Thanks alot for your insight guys.

Trey803
12-06-2006, 07:57 PM
Shoulda bought the p880

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 08:30 PM
to much of deh butt secks??? look a lil red in tha pic bro. every pioneer has it unless you are using something from the 80's . so stfu noob and dont get mad at me because you cant read.

ur right, in the scheme of things, i am a noob, but u must know ur wrong if u have to resort to calling me gay.

you keep telling us to turn it to 'full,' download an adobe version of the manual, hit search, type the word 'full.' you get zero results. thats the kind of argument that backs u into a corner where you have no choice but to call me gay.

i look a little red, you're right, it was after my first powerlifting meet. i put up 390 and only weighed in at 204.


i hope one day i will be knowledgable enough so that when people ask a f*ckin question, i can do my best to help them. thats what we're here for.

you're just an internet tough guy. if this was face to face, you would sh*t your f*ckin pants.

i mean no disrespect to anyone else who reads this, and apologize for drawing attention away from the topic.

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 08:37 PM
squeak, what do u think of the production value on the new TOOL album? i think that Aenema, for its time, was a very well produced album, as was Lateralus. Despite loving each song on 10,000 Days (saw 'em 2 nights in a row in october), the album in my opinion seems to be mixed poorly in comparison to Lateralus.

I may be a relative noob to car audio, but i play 4 instruments, i have taught drum lessons since i was 19, and have spent some time in recording studios with various bands.

maybe i'm holding them up too high, being that they're TOOL and everything.

frankiebones
12-06-2006, 08:44 PM
You can certainly use them both. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using both the headunit's & amplifier's crossovers at the same time. In fact, many people intentionally use both to obtain the specific sound they are needing.

What it comes down to is the resulting sound. That is all that's important.

In the case of the Pioneer and it's ability or lack thereof to set the LPF to "pass"....it doesn't really matter. IIRC the lowpass frequency can be set as high as 200hz. In which case, the headunit's xover point is high enough out of the subwoofer's bandwidth that it won't really affect the sound much if at all. For example, if your amplifier has 24db/oct slopes and you have the amplifier's lowpass xover set to, say, 70hz....the signal going to be attenuated by -48db at 210hz. So having the xover set to 200hz is only going to be affecting a signal that's already being attenuated by over -40db. Not a big deal. So, if you only want to use the amp's xover....just set the HU's xover to 200hz. Badda-bing badda-boom.

But, as I said....you certainly can use them both in conjunction with each other (i.e. having them both set to 80hz). The resulting slope will be affected....but not inherently in a negative way. Like I said...many people do this intentionally. The only thing that's important is what obtains the best sound.

If using them both sounds the best (and given some of the previous postings...it possibly is?) then you are good to go and have nothing to worry about.


i followed everything u said, barely. however, sound is everything. i turned the x-over on my JL 500/1 to pass and then i was left with just the HU's HPF and LPF both set at 80.

I dont know about SQ, but often times when the bass guitar would transition from frequencies above the x-over pt to frequencies below (or vice versa), the transition was anything but smooth. it sounds very much the same, except those walking bass lines (think "all mixed up" by 311) that jump between sub to mid are smooth. then i lowered the levels on my JL 500/1 amp while playing that 311 song a few times, and was able to match the volume levels so that the as it transitioned, it stayed the same volume.

it really sounds like its coming from one driver. whether i have a good ear or i just got lucky, im gonna see how some other sh*t sounds with my current settings, and definitely use a sharpie marker to mark the spots before i do too much additional tuning.

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 09:10 PM
where in any of my posts does the word "GAY" show up? take it easy... if you have been around this forum enough you should know its just b.s.'n

BASSMEKANIK
12-06-2006, 09:12 PM
and no i wouldnt **** my pants . i would just kick your ***... :D

squeak9798
12-06-2006, 10:22 PM
That defeats the purpose of using a 24db octave slope @ 80hz and then setting your HPF at 12db @ 100hz for a good roll off.

My point is that this can affect your system rolloff etc... Just wish i could use one or the other and call it 24db @ 80 hz or 18db @ 80hz etc.......


I think you're either not getting it, or fixating yourself on something so miniscule that it won't really be noticeable audibly.

By setting your LPF on the headunit as high as it will go (in this case, 200hz), the signal is going to be so attenuated already that it's not going to cause any substantial change in the sonic characteristics of the system.

There is no need to fret about the HU's inability to bypass the LPF. You can, in effect, "only use" the amplifier's xover if you wish by simply setting the LPF on the HU to 200hz.

My other point was simply due to the misconception that it was "incorrect" or unacceptable to use them both in conjunction with each other.

squeak9798
12-06-2006, 10:27 PM
then i lowered the levels on my JL 500/1 amp while playing that 311 song a few times, and was able to match the volume levels so that the as it transitioned, it stayed the same volume.

That typically is where most run into problems....they don't properly level match the substage with the midbass.

squeak9798
12-06-2006, 10:35 PM
squeak, what do u think of the production value on the new TOOL album? i think that Aenema, for its time, was a very well produced album, as was Lateralus. Despite loving each song on 10,000 Days (saw 'em 2 nights in a row in october), the album in my opinion seems to be mixed poorly in comparison to Lateralus.

I'm no music engineer nor audiophile golden ear myself......but there are some songs in 10K Days that I think are decent from a recording standpoint. For example, "Right in Two" seems to do pretty well. Other tracks on the album do leave a little to be desired recording wise. I think I would have to agree with your generalization that overall, in comparison to previous albums it wasn't mastered quite aswell.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 11:10 PM
squeak thanks for your help. What whould you do if you were in my shoes ?

I have a 5 channel RF Power 1000 and have the stereo channels crossed over at 12db @ 100hz on the HU with the amp set to pass.

The sub mono channel is preset to 24db slope and I have the filter set to 80hz with the HU now set to 18db @ 200hz or i could go back down to 80hz but im not sure if it will cause any phase issues or what not.

Whould you use the HU and Amps crossovers for the stereo channels aswell as the sub channel or just use the HU ?

p.s. I have a CDT HD62 component set upfront off only 50 watts rms (100 rms actual probably ) and a JL 12w6v2 sealed in the trunk off 600 rms @ 2 ohm

adam71
12-06-2006, 11:15 PM
I cant believe they put so many useless features on a HU and put hpf on every preout but dont give you the option to set the LPF to pass. This is a big problem considering most amps have built in crossovers already.

I guess im going to sell my 780 and find me a better HU with this feature.

Frankie, me and you have a similar setup.

I have a jl 12w6v2 and a 500/1

Who says you have to use the amplifier's crossover.?? In fact, why would you use the amps crossover over your deck's crossover.?? THat makes no sense what so ever. You have total control at the deck by using the deck's internal crossover. THink about that before you jump to conclusions.

suleman36
12-06-2006, 11:17 PM
Adam, the amps crossovers on my subchannel is preset which doesnt give me an option of setting it to pass or off to eliminate the 24db octave slope.

Otherwise i whould have a long time ago man.

adam71
12-06-2006, 11:20 PM
Adam, the amps crossovers on my subchannel is preset which doesnt give me an option of setting it to pass or off to eliminate the 24db octave slope.

Otherwise i whould have a long time ago man.

Well thats a stupid amp. You could always use only your front outputs and go with an outboard crossover.

jacka
12-06-2006, 11:22 PM
squeak thanks for your help. What whould you do if you were in my shoes ?

I have a 5 channel RF Power 1000 and have the stereo channels crossed over at 12db @ 100hz on the HU with the amp set to pass.

The sub mono channel is preset to 24db slope and I have the filter set to 80hz with the HU now set to 18db @ 200hz or i could go back down to 80hz but im not sure if it will cause any phase issues or what not.

Whould you use the HU and Amps crossovers for the stereo channels aswell as the sub channel or just use the HU ?

p.s. I have a CDT HD62 component set upfront off only 50 watts rms (100 rms actual probably ) and a JL 12w6v2 sealed in the trunk off 600 rms @ 2 ohm

sounds pretty good right now IMO. I'm also using my HU's HPF and amp set at pass, and sub amp's LPF and HU set at 200hz.

squeak9798
12-07-2006, 01:17 AM
squeak thanks for your help. What whould you do if you were in my shoes ?

I have a 5 channel RF Power 1000 and have the stereo channels crossed over at 12db @ 100hz on the HU with the amp set to pass.

The sub mono channel is preset to 24db slope and I have the filter set to 80hz with the HU now set to 18db @ 200hz or i could go back down to 80hz but im not sure if it will cause any phase issues or what not.

Whould you use the HU and Amps crossovers for the stereo channels aswell as the sub channel or just use the HU ?

Honestly, it's just something you are going to have to play around with and see which provides the best results. There's really no "rule of thumb" to work off of since everything is completely install/equipment/vehicle dependent. It's just something you're going to have to fiddle with until you find the best combination.

An advantage of using the amp's xover is that the frequency is "continuously variable"....meaning you can choose any frequency within the specified range. With the headunit's xover, you are stuck choosing between the limited number of frequencies the headunit manufacturer decided they would allow you to select from. And advantage of the headunit's xover is that you can control it from the driver's seat for easy and on-the-fly adjustment.

frankiebones
12-07-2006, 07:35 AM
where in any of my posts does the word "GAY" show up? take it easy... if you have been around this forum enough you should know its just b.s.'n

you said "to much of deh butt secks??? look a lil red in tha pic bro."

now, honestly bro, am I to assume you were complimenting me because I nail mad *****es in the, well, you know? you know what u meant. stand by it.

and as for you kicking my ***, well, in one corner, we got a big italian guy from brooklyn. in the opposing corner, we have, well, who the hell knows? i may be a few months away from taking the bar exam, but that doesnt mean i forgot where i grew up, which is a lot diff than where u grew up. been a decade since someone got the best of me, but i'll just have to take ur word for it.

you wanna call a truce, thats fine by me, but cut that "dumb noobs cant even read" sh*t out. i'm on these boards to learn what i can, and when people help me, i thank them. we were all noobs at one pt.

i went off on u like i did because you were the biggest **** i have encountered on these boards. on the bodybuilding and powerlifting forums, everyone's gotta be so tough, and i find it refreshing when people are so much chiller here.

adam71
12-07-2006, 03:18 PM
you said "to much of deh butt secks??? look a lil red in tha pic bro."

now, honestly bro, am I to assume you were complimenting me because I nail mad *****es in the, well, you know? you know what u meant. stand by it.

and as for you kicking my ***, well, in one corner, we got a big italian guy from brooklyn. in the opposing corner, we have, well, who the hell knows? i may be a few months away from taking the bar exam, but that doesnt mean i forgot where i grew up, which is a lot diff than where u grew up. been a decade since someone got the best of me, but i'll just have to take ur word for it.



Hey Frankie, I'm 6' 1" and about 260lbs and I wouldn't mess with ya.;) Not that you'd give me a reason to anyway.

frankiebones
12-07-2006, 03:43 PM
Hey Frankie, I'm 6' 1" and about 260lbs and I wouldn't mess with ya.;) Not that you'd give me a reason to anyway.

i dont know why adam, but i really like u. ur a good dude, lol

jdelk69
12-10-2006, 11:25 AM
I have a lonely little Pioneer DEH480MP. My amps are: Profile 1040 for components and Audiobahn A4002T for the Sub. I have the xovers set at full and am using the HU xovers. I found this to work for the sound effects, that my listening ears like to hear. I have the xover @ 80hz for LPF/HPF/SUB. Seems to work for me.

Joe

suleman36
12-10-2006, 03:54 PM
OK, i went ahead and re arranged my install and replaced the RF 5 channel amp and went with the following.

JL 500/1 to my 12w6v2

PPI a600.2 to my CDT HD62 set

I am using the crossovers on the HU and set the 500/1 to off and the ppi a600.2 naturally doesnt have any x-overs.

All i can say is WOW :) / Huge Differance in sound and my frontstage has never sounded better.

The sub fills in my low end and is just exactly what i wanted.

I have my crossovers on the 780 set to :

6db @ 100hz HPF

18db @ 80hz LPF

Finally satisfied with my system.

p.s. The 16 band EQ is amazing to have.

frankiebones
12-10-2006, 09:18 PM
i feel the same way about the improvement it made when i turned the xover on the 500/1 to off, suddenly sounded a whole lot better (which is weird bc i not only didnt think anything was wrong with having the xover set at 80 Hz on the HU and the 500/1, i thought it sounded pretty good.

i am no x-over expert by any means, but im just wondering, why only go with a slope of -6 dB/octave? is there an explanation for why u went with the less steep slope, or did it just sound better?

frankiebones
12-10-2006, 09:19 PM
i am especially curious since u went with the most steep slope the HU allowed when u crossed the subwoofer over (18 obviously).

suleman36
12-10-2006, 11:47 PM
Totally dependant on the components you're using and how they are installed. Generalizing:

6db/oct: Best phase and amplitude response (Butterworth). Worst off axis performance and modulation distortion. 90 degree phase shift. Stresses drivers such as tweeters and delicate midranges, as 6db/oct isn't enough to limit excursion in many cases. Very sensitive to driver alignment, both in relation to each other and also the axis of the drivers themselves. Best results usually come with installs where the tweeter is very close to the mid, and careful attention to positioning is taken (kick panels, angled door).

12db/oct: 2nd best phase and amplitude response. Less sensitive to driver misalignment than 1st order crossovers. May still be too shallow for certain drivers. A natural crossover for a car, gives a good response. Good for installs that are slightly off axis, and drivers that are decently close to one another, more forgiving than a 1st order crossover in that respect.

18db/oct: Good amplitude and phase response. The steeper slope can minimize modulation distortion and it improves off axis performance. Less sensitive to driver misalignment. Good for off axis installs like a stock door panel, and the tweeter being further from the mid.

24db/oct: Can produce a very flat amplitude and phase response. Steep slope equals least modulation distortion. 360 degree phase shift, so the drivers are "in phase", but the time alignment is off. Least sensitive to driver misalignment. These are typically used in off axis installs and give good results if you want to locate the tweeter far from the mid.

Phase alignment or time alignment does essentially the same task. You're simply trying to align the drivers acoustically to provide a coherent output to your ears. Best done with experimentation, as even with equations the end result can and will be affected by the environment, especially talking about a car with multiple reflections to distract the originating signal.

suleman36
12-10-2006, 11:55 PM
Subs I tend to cross over more steeply, and use midbass or mids to roll off to the subs.
with mids and tweeters, the shallower the slopes, typically the smoother the transitions and better the SQ turns out, but the downside is that the speakers get hellishly more picky about beaming and directionality, their power handling drops significantly, and there are a few other issues. A steeper 12-18dB slope for mids/tweeters tends to make the install a lot easier, lets you throw more power at the speakers, and really works out nearly as well.

frankiebones
12-11-2006, 05:26 AM
I have my crossovers on the 780 set to :

6db @ 100hz HPF

18db @ 80hz LPF



why stagger ur crossover pts? (thats what this technique is called, right? 'staggering'?)

frankiebones
12-11-2006, 07:51 AM
ok suleman, my 7800 brother, i just set my LPF and HPF as u did,

LPF ( 80Hz on the HU, 18dB)

HPF (100Hz on the HU, 6dB)

it sounds phenomenal. i got a 6 hr criminal procedure exam in 26 hours (law school bullsh*t) and the last thing i should be doing is adjusting my crossover pts and slopes, but whatever.

i didnt have time to give it a thorough and critical listen to, but when i went to get coffee i heard 2 songs and both sounded phenomenal.

'stinkfist' by TOOL sounded much less 'muddy,' and responded better to equalization. this was especially true for the end/peak of the song, which sounded infinitely 'cleaner.'

'this calling' by All That Remains also sounded much cleaner. i also (under the subwoofer 3 screen) changed the phase of the sub to the setting which made it sound better, bc it was out of phase.

i must admit that despite the serious progress i have made in my understanding of various aspects of car audio, i have never read very much on the concept of 'phase.' i dont understand it yet, gimme like 20-40 min.

after that, i swear i wont do anymore car audio research/tuning/analyzing until after my final on tuesday!!