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View Full Version : Rainbow Profi Kick Bass .... explained ( for better mid-bass )



blue
10-12-2006, 08:45 AM
Check out this link ....

http://www.distinctusa.com/rainbow_kickbass_forever_en.pdf

EVERYTHING about hard hitting , deep authoratative mid-bass is explained here , and believe me Brotha .... They KNOW what they are talking about. I know , I have these speakers , and I have a SEAMLESS integration between my immensely powerful SPG-555 sub. Drums now pound THROUGH your chest and are very realistic as if you were standing 5 feet from a live drum kit. No , I repeat NO bass line is too much for these to handle with ease.
Don't believe me , I DARE you to try them , and you will NEVER again consider placing 7" or 8" drivers up front for more mid-bass !!

blue
10-12-2006, 08:54 AM
Deleted

Ruffy
10-12-2006, 09:59 AM
buy me a set please daddy

I'm still not happy with my SLC's kickbass response.

3.5Max6spd
10-12-2006, 10:01 AM
buy me a set please daddy

I'm still not happy with my SLC's kickbass response.

And you wont likely ever be unless you mount them on a REAL baffle.

3.5Max6spd
10-12-2006, 10:05 AM
About the kickbass drivers... They are NOT intended to play below 80hz/12dbs.
So no, they do not replace the need of 7" or 8" midbasses should you want to play a lower xover point. However they are the best high qts 6.5" in terms of performance I've come across down to 80hz. They Kick like a mothereffer!

blue
10-12-2006, 10:36 AM
About the kickbass drivers... They are NOT intended to play below 80hz/12dbs.
So no, they do not replace the need of 7" or 8" midbasses should you want to play a lower xover point. However they are the best high qts 6.5" in terms of performance I've come across down to 80hz. They Kick like a mothereffer!

Misunderstanding ... The reason I posted about the Kick Bass drivers from Rainbow , is in general response to the multitude of posts in the " speaker " section this very moment , regarding the need for more and stronger mid-bass up front. To me , mid-bass is primarily from approx 80 hz to around 250 hz. People who use 8" drivers to gain mid-bass up front by crossing over at lower frequencies are STILL not necessarily gaining more mid-bass up front , but are gaining the illusion of more mid-bass by introducing true sub-bass frequencies , which I consider anything below basically 80 hz. I've had many people do exactly that , just find they are confused , because they do NOT have the impact they were looking for by going with 8"s in the doors.
In other words , MANY people mistake the " kick " in the mid-bass frequencies , believing it primarily comes from lower sub-bass frequencies instead.
Also , people who are looking to " move " the sub-bass up front with them by adding 8" in the doors and crossing at lower frequencies , could have accomplished it MUCH easier with the proper techniques of better sub to mid-bass driver integration .... To be fair though , MOST people don't have a complete understanding of just how many things can be done to accomplish this , and opt for the " let's just throw some 8"s in the doors " approach.
Adding powerful 8" drivers in the doors introduces a WORLD of new issues , such as the need for MUCH better dampening and stiffening , resonance control , and the possibility of the mids being affected by the strong backwave energy the 8s produce in the doors. MUCH more tuning is needed to get the critical balance without negatively affecting other things in the spectrum.
I'm not aginst the three-way , large driver / low x-over point approach , and do installs like that any time the customer requests it , but have found 6.5's to be MORE than appropriate when done correctly.

Getting bass " up-front " DOES NOT require adding large drivers up front , but instead requires a deep bag of knowledge on the multitude of tricks and techniques that can accomplish this with proper mid-bass to sub integration.
Just my $.02 ....

blue
10-12-2006, 10:42 AM
And you wont likely ever be unless you mount them on a REAL baffle.

VERY TRUE !! My Profi Phase Plugs are mounted on 1" MDF baffles , and my Profi Kicks are mounted on 1.5" baffles. All of which is INSANELY secured to the doors with screws , 5,000 lb epoxy , and 5 layers of Dynamat.
The Toms in drum kits will punch holes through you , and when the sub hands over really strong bass lines to the mid-bass drivers , there is ZERO reduction in bass intensity. A recording of an acoustical stand-up bass will rip your head OFF ... Just like it will Live in a coffee shop/bar .... :up2somet:

headless
10-12-2006, 12:38 PM
Germaniums aren't slouches when it comes to midbass either. Have you heard them, blue?

GrnEydDvl
10-12-2006, 01:31 PM
3.5Max6spd and blue are right. The Rainbow "kickbass" mids are designed to play loud and down to 80hz in well dampened door, but not below.

The number one comment I have been getting after demo'ing the new install to people (besides "holy chit that sounds great") is how great the midbass is. They can feel it pushing on their leg and the bass image is never pulled to the rear.

This is, of course, with the doors deadened to death and the mids mounted to double stacked 3/4 mdf baffle with dynamat sandwiched inbetween. And 250 watts RMS to each side :naughty: Thank god for deep doors.

The point is - the rainbow mids are certainly capable of amazing output down to 80hz. And I dont see any reason to go beyond that.

blue
10-12-2006, 01:49 PM
Germaniums aren't slouches when it comes to midbass either. Have you heard them, blue?

No , but I will very soon. We have an install scheduled in a couple of weeks that is using the Germs. ;) Truth be told , I have been waaay impressed at EVERY price point within the Rainbow line-up. We're finding it more difficult to sell our other manufacturer's $1,200 offerings , when customers hear them compared to what Rainbow offers at $700 and under.

blue
10-12-2006, 01:52 PM
3.5Max6spd and blue are right. The Rainbow "kickbass" mids are designed to play loud and down to 80hz in well dampened door, but not below.

The number one comment I have been getting after demo'ing the new install to people (besides "holy chit that sounds great") is how great the midbass is. They can feel it pushing on their leg and the bass image is never pulled to the rear.

This is, of course, with the doors deadened to death and the mids mounted to double stacked 3/4 mdf baffle with dynamat sandwiched inbetween. And 250 watts RMS to each side :naughty: Thank god for deep doors.

The point is - the rainbow mids are certainly capable of amazing output down to 80hz. And I dont see any reason to go beyond that.

Perfectly stated ...

SQBubble
10-12-2006, 06:03 PM
alright so tell me this blue

how do they compare with the Powerline CS 6.9inch, are they(powerline cs) truly the best mid-basses in the rainbow line, or kickbasses are better??

blue
10-12-2006, 06:29 PM
alright so tell me this blue

how do they compare with the Powerline CS 6.9inch, are they(powerline cs) truly the best mid-basses in the rainbow line, or kickbasses are better??

I've heard ALL of the Rainbow speaker lines now except the Germaniums ( yes , I've even heard the References ) , and to my ears the Profi Kicks are the best. Profi Vanadium Kicks seem to actually hit a little harder , being aluminum and all , but do not sound as accurately toned to me.
I'd rather have the Profi Kicks for mean mid-bass , than I would the Platimums ..... To me , the PERFECT Rainbow system would be the Profi Kicks from 80hz to 250hz , then the Profi Phase Plugs from 250 hz to hand over to the Cal 28 tweeters from a set of Platinums :laugh:
While the Platinums mid-bass driver is supposed to be MUCH better than the Profi line , I find the paper cone material from the Profi line to sound the most like real music , tonally speaking ....
HTH

SQBubble
10-12-2006, 06:55 PM
I've heard ALL of the Rainbow speaker lines now except the Germaniums ( yes , I've even heard the References ) , and to my ears the Profi Kicks are the best. Profi Vanadium Kicks seem to actually hit a little harder , being aluminum and all , but do not sound as accurately toned to me.
I'd rather have the Profi Kicks for mean mid-bass , than I would the Platimums ..... To me , the PERFECT Rainbow system would be the Profi Kicks from 80hz to 250hz , then the Profi Phase Plugs from 250 hz to hand over to the Cal 28 tweeters from a set of Platinums :laugh:
While the Platinums mid-bass driver is supposed to be MUCH better than the Profi line , I find the paper cone material from the Profi line to sound the most like real music , tonally speaking ....
HTH

and where does the Powerline CS stands among them all??

jiggy2dmax
10-12-2006, 07:27 PM
I've been doing some research and are considering these as replacements to my Crystals. The overall verdict I got is that the mid-bass is great but havent heard much about the upper end. How are the tweets? I love the way that the Crystals tweet sound, not to laid back but not over-bearing either but kinda just wanna try a new setup to. BTW: Blue are you able to sell online? PM me and we can talk if I decide to go this way. Another mention I Havent heard much about is the power-handling. Any comp-set I get would be mated to a Kicker 850.2(~300 a side). Thanx guys!

HitManSE
10-12-2006, 08:36 PM
I wish there was some sort of reputable show some were local here that knew what they were doing... (makes me wonder if I should take things into my own hands :D )

Jig- depending on how its crossed & how the gains are set 300 a side shouldnt be a prob ( even though its a bit excessive...who am I to judge though, im running over 300 a side now, lol )

Blue- I have yet to hear and "kickbass" rainbow comps but im starting to understand what you mean. When I got the Powerline CS in, it did bring more bass upfront, considerably more to be honest but none of that kick you in the chest feeling.
Dont get me wrong it sounds phenomenal but doesnt kick you in the chest. Im sure if I had it running in an active setup and set my own paths to cross them at, things would improve but ill get to that another time.

SQBubble
10-12-2006, 08:48 PM
I wish there was some sort of reputable show some were local here that knew what they were doing... (makes me wonder if I should take things into my own hands :D )

Jig- depending on how its crossed & how the gains are set 300 a side shouldnt be a prob ( even though its a bit excessive...who am I to judge though, im running over 300 a side now, lol )

Blue- I have yet to hear and "kickbass" rainbow comps but im starting to understand what you mean. When I got the Powerline CS in, it did bring more bass upfront, considerably more to be honest but none of that kick you in the chest feeling.
Dont get me wrong it sounds phenomenal but doesnt kick you in the chest. Im sure if I had it running in an active setup and set my own paths to cross them at, things would improve but ill get to that another time.

nvm

blue
10-12-2006, 08:50 PM
I've been doing some research and are considering these as replacements to my Crystals. The overall verdict I got is that the mid-bass is great but havent heard much about the upper end. How are the tweets? I love the way that the Crystals tweet sound, not to laid back but not over-bearing either but kinda just wanna try a new setup to. BTW: Blue are you able to sell online? PM me and we can talk if I decide to go this way. Another mention I Havent heard much about is the power-handling. Any comp-set I get would be mated to a Kicker 850.2(~300 a side). Thanx guys!

Man , I can't sell on-line , but can tell you this : The Profi line and above are some of the best tweeters i have EVER heard. VERY , VERY natural sounding. As far as power handlin goes ....I was giving my Profi Kick components about 360 watts per channel , and they LOVED it :up2somet:

blue
10-12-2006, 08:55 PM
and where does the Powerline CS stands among them all??

He he he .... I'm getting PMs like crazy asking about individual Rainbow sets .... Here's the best way I can really answer your question. At pretty much EVERY Rainbow price point , it is VERY difficult to better or even equal what Rainbow offers when comparing other brands , without spending considerably more money.

kublkmax
10-12-2006, 10:24 PM
i have been saying that all along and no one wants to listen to me. And as for the Powerline CS go they get real nasty and stay very accurate. The power lines are just one part of my front stage and they have made themselves right at home with other componets that I am running. I could not be happier.:D

HitManSE
10-12-2006, 11:00 PM
^ That is very true, they get **** loud and stay accurate 100% through out. Im not upset with the Powerline CS. They rock, even though im running them passive they still sound great. Im just wondering how much better active would sound.

Only prob for me is I dont feel like picking up another 4-channel Arc SE amp(to match my other 2 :D ) to run the mids and tweets, finding a good place & mounting the mids, plus Id need to get another head unit & now cost is over $1500+ just to find out. I dont exactly feel like I need to spend more atm.

slick rick
10-13-2006, 12:27 AM
Hitman I gotta answer your PM. I got it after NY this summer but have been busy with law school. sounds like you like the 'bows. :)

HitManSE
10-13-2006, 02:47 AM
Hitman I gotta answer your PM. I got it after NY this summer but have been busy with law school. sounds like you like the 'bows. :)

Then answer it, lol

Btw I think ive figured out what that metallic ringing noise is. Dont know how the hell to fix it, but I know what it is.

Run some test tones, at one certain freq (not sure which it is on yours) between 150-400hz you'll catch it.

I think it may have something to do with the alum cones, but its def from the speaker. I didnt have much time to poke at it today to narrow it down.

95stroked1500
10-13-2006, 04:38 AM
people put 8's and 10's in their doors because they drop them down to 40hz and want a lot of outpu from it. a sub @ 80hz is directional to me. unless it's faded way down.

rainbow sure has some beautiful looking drivers. i'd like to take a bite of one when i see them. but i'd have to hear a set of their kick bass to bump them up on my opinions pedastool. some people i see rave about rainbows, others aren't impressed. after all the hype years ago, i was excited to get a chance to audition them. it was a couple different set ups and not the entry levels either. i fall into the category of being disappointed in what i heard vs cost.

but anyway, the best 6.5" mid bass driver i've heard yet is a DD W6.5LT. 50hz up, pour on the power and better have a door beefed up like yours are. they need a lot of break in time,...... 6 spiders i think they use in those one's.

not to jack your thread, just a different view on the topic.

SQBubble
10-13-2006, 05:46 AM
people put 8's and 10's in their doors because they drop them down to 40hz and want a lot of outpu from it. a sub @ 80hz is directional to me. unless it's faded way down.

rainbow sure has some beautiful looking drivers. i'd like to take a bite of one when i see them. but i'd have to hear a set of their kick bass to bump them up on my opinions pedastool. some people i see rave about rainbows, others aren't impressed. after all the hype years ago, i was excited to get a chance to audition them. it was a couple different set ups and not the entry levels either. i fall into the category of being disappointed in what i heard vs cost.

but anyway, the best 6.5" mid bass driver i've heard yet is a DD W6.5LT. 50hz up, pour on the power and better have a door beefed up like yours are. they need a lot of break in time,...... 6 spiders i think they use in those one's.

not to jack your thread, just a different view on the topic.

i agree, i dont really enjoy low-passed at 80hz on a sub, it gets anoying sometimes...not always though


its dual-spider dude....
is it this one ur talking about?
http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/caraudio/woofers.asp?series=W6.5
do u know where i could get 2of these and for how much?

95stroked1500
10-13-2006, 07:43 AM
that's the old one. there's different one's now, no updated pics there yet.

i could be wrong about 6 spiders, maybe it's 4. but for some reason i remember being told 6 by them. if it is 2, then my memory is all screwed up. and with how their basket is, i can't see the edge of them to count.

aside from DD or a local dealer, don't know of anyone who has them that wants to part with them.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/95stroked1500/ddw6-1.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/95stroked1500/ddw6.jpg

that's a 1/2" thick top plate.

blue
10-13-2006, 07:45 AM
people put 8's and 10's in their doors because they drop them down to 40hz and want a lot of outpu from it. a sub @ 80hz is directional to me. unless it's faded way down.

rainbow sure has some beautiful looking drivers. i'd like to take a bite of one when i see them. but i'd have to hear a set of their kick bass to bump them up on my opinions pedastool. some people i see rave about rainbows, others aren't impressed. after all the hype years ago, i was excited to get a chance to audition them. it was a couple different set ups and not the entry levels either. i fall into the category of being disappointed in what i heard vs cost.

but anyway, the best 6.5" mid bass driver i've heard yet is a DD W6.5LT. 50hz up, pour on the power and better have a door beefed up like yours are. they need a lot of break in time,...... 6 spiders i think they use in those one's.

not to jack your thread, just a different view on the topic.
I appreciate your input Stroked , but I if 80hz is directional to you , you simply haven't heard it done correctly .... This is where the average installer fails. Often it takes a REALLY good dedicated tuner to get this right. There are a multitude of tricks to help with this , not the least of which are the " Kick " series from Rainbow. They REALLY help bring the bass up front for VASTLY improved integration with the sub.
I've played with many of the DIY stes the Gurus claim to blow away the Rainbows .... and you know what .... Most of them do NOT. The majority of the improvement they are hearing is simply active vs. passsive ....
Thanks again for your input man !

Thnking
10-13-2006, 08:08 AM
I
Blue- I have yet to hear and "kickbass" rainbow comps but im starting to understand what you mean. When I got the Powerline CS in, it did bring more bass upfront, considerably more to be honest but none of that kick you in the chest feeling.


Bringing the bass upfront really has nothing to do with using rainbow speakers, in most cases it's simply an EQ between the subs and mid-bass speakers.

Personally, I like the Profi and Plat lines, but I would never buy the Plat's for their near retail price, and there are a number of speakers I prefer over the Profi's for similar and less than prices. Like various speakers and combinations of from Seas, Peerless, IA, Vifa, Morel, Scan-Speak, AVI, Dayton.

3.5Max6spd
10-13-2006, 08:41 AM
Bringing the bass upfront really has nothing to do with using rainbow speakers, in most cases it's simply an EQ between the subs and mid-bass speakers.

I think you mean phase relationship. Which is affected by the xover point, an eq is not the recommended tool to fix that.





Personally, I like the Profi and Plat lines, but I would never buy the Plat's for their near retail price, and there are a number of speakers I prefer over the Profi's for similar and less than prices. Like various speakers and combinations of from Seas, Peerless, IA, Vifa, Morel, Scan-Speak, AVI, Dayton.

All those DIY low qts drivers cannot compare in an IB configuration in comparison to a real caraudio tooled high qts driver. Been there, done that. Talk about NEEDING EQ to get acceptable sound as always some area of the freq response is affected using IB. Seal them, or vent them-then yes you are getting what you pay for from them. But IB use from a sub .5 qts driver is boo boo unless you have a perfect door for them. They either sound boomy and undefined(scans) or thin on the lower end (seas) and jeapordizes xover point/power handling.

BodegaBay
10-13-2006, 10:23 AM
All those DIY low qts drivers cannot compare in an IB configuration in comparison to a real caraudio tooled high qts driver...They either sound boomy and undefined(scans) or thin on the lower end (seas) and jeapordizes xover point/power handling.

I fully agree with Manny's assertion on this point. I got swept into the DIY drivers craze and after a six month trial, went back to my Profi Kicks. I personally bought a $350 set of Seas Nextel W18NX. Huge 7in driver. Beefy and dense -- 20-30% more than the Profis. Naturally I thought it would handily beat the Profi Kicks in midbass and was very surpised that it didn't even come close. Everone raves about it having great midbass but to me it's only a great midrange driver -- and who the heck wants a 7 INCH midrange? The Profi Kickbass are the only woofers I've listened to that really puts out that kick in the chest output. It's very warm and unfocused for the first ten hours, but after it's seated and broken in, it's phenomenal.

Thnking
10-13-2006, 10:27 AM
I think you mean phase relationship. Which is affected by the xover point, an eq is not the recommended tool to fix that.
I don't mean phase relationship, I said EQ and I mean EQ.
Most setups simply have their Pass bands and/or mid-bass bandwidth not EQ'd or mis-EQ'd. Itís an amplitude related problem.
Phase coherency over pass bands between the mid-bass to subwoofer are very very rarely problematic, itís far below any frequency where front to back spatial cues exist, and in general people arenít sensitive to any ITDís below 250hz (which isnít related to bass upfront but rather horizontal azimuth point source localization).
Iíve been involved with a handful of discussions and tests stemming from phase coherency, acoustic summing, distortion, and absolute phase due crossovers being used.



All those DIY low qts drivers cannot compare in an IB configuration in comparison to a real caraudio tooled high qts driver. Been there, done that. Talk about NEEDING EQ to get acceptable sound as always some area of the freq response is affected using IB. Seal them, or vent them-then yes you are getting what you pay for from them. But IB use from a sub .5 qts driver is boo boo unless you have a perfect door for them. They either sound boomy and undefined(scans) or thin on the lower end (seas) and jeapordizes xover point/power handling.
Iíve always thought Rainbowís drivers lack low end.
Personally, Iíve never seen one of the above mentioned drivers IB in an acoustically sound environment, like a house. But as far as car ďIBĒ (if you can call it that) mounting is concerned, highly damped drivers (over damped) typically are a prefect fit for mid-bass/midrange. Typically the frequency point where damping dominates response, is low enough to where car resonances and summed responses need very little eqíing.
And I canít believe you think Seas mounted in a car are thin on the low end or Scanís are boomy. You must really have had bad installs.

SQBubble
10-13-2006, 10:37 AM
idk why but i LOVE thread that talk about -----mid-bass----, always learn new stuff:yumyum:









































:popcorn:

3.5Max6spd
10-13-2006, 11:03 AM
And I can’t believe you think Seas mounted in a car are thin on the low end or Scan’s are boomy. You must really have had bad installs.

The only use I see for EQ in that region is to attack resonance issues. I dont see where its the absolute cure for sub/midbass integration UNLESS you have limited xover values/slopes and have no other choice.

I'm running Seas midbasses in my car as we speak. They replaced Morel H8.1 diy /low qt drivers. And my install is far from bad, what i have going for me is alot of power and greater cone area being they are 8" drivers-moderate sized door helps as well. They are a good speaker, but its far from just a drop in good performer. And yes they are on the thin side on the lower midbass. Depending on the door the 6.5's I've had experience with (the lotus car line, still low qts version) need boosting help in the 80-100hz region to get better output , and a steep filter at 80hz to take volume without bottoming out. Of course conditions can always be argued as the culprit, too many variables. Give me the option of a high qts driver and a low qts, i know better now to get a driver better suited for that application.

Regardless...staying on topic, the Profi Kickbass driver- it makes itself at home in ANY door after break in and delivers the same performance it would in any other door.
And its not just output we are talking here, its the effortless quality and fidelity of the kick that is remarkable for a 6.5" that you'd expect from a larger driver. What it does in the 80-220hz region is straight up ****. Great speaker.

HitManSE
10-13-2006, 11:13 AM
This is where the average installer fails. Often it takes a REALLY good dedicated tuner to get this right. There are a multitude of tricks to help with this , not the least of which are the " Kick " series from Rainbow. They REALLY help bring the bass up front for VASTLY improved integration with the sub.



Please do continue... the suspense is killing me :D

blue
10-13-2006, 11:43 AM
Ughh ... Thnking , you are in over your head here. No offense meanst , but um ... NO , you are off with your line of reasoning.
People on this thread who are SINFULLY familiar with the Rainbow offerings , especially the Profi Kick being discussed , are VERY " in the know " about this subject from first hand experience , and Manny may have said it best ...... For INSANELY great mid-bass , beating the Profi Kicks is going to be VERY hard to do .... They truly are " **** " ;)

blue
10-13-2006, 11:44 AM
Good Lord Manny !!!! Did we just agree on something ?? :laugh:

Eugenics
10-13-2006, 12:30 PM
Ughh ... Thnking , you are in over your head here. No offense meanst , but um ... NO , you are off with your line of reasoning.
People on this thread who are SINFULLY familiar with the Rainbow offerings , especially the Profi Kick being discussed , are VERY " in the know " about this subject from first hand experience , and Manny may have said it best ...... For INSANELY great mid-bass , beating the Profi Kicks is going to be VERY hard to do .... They truly are " **** " ;)


Good Lord Manny !!!! Did we just agree on something ?? :laugh:

before you listen to anything this fool says read:


http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158012
(hebrew ham. proves him to be a douchefuc and he has nothing to say, just ignores the posts)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178941
(goes on to say anyone who likes eclipse knows nothing about music or how it should sound... and that he's never been flamed LAWL)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436
(even worse)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156802

(and again)

he has no credibility at all. all he does is argue about **** he has only the slightest knowledge about

GrnEydDvl
10-13-2006, 01:00 PM
I agree with Manny on his point about phase relationship and how crossover affects the need for its adjustment.

I am no where near Blue or Manny's experience level when it comes to tuning but I know two things.

1. I use beefy Rainbow mids (not "kickbass" models though) and they are crossed over at the same point as the sub is. Having them out of phase with each other has resulted in a much better frequency response and lack of sub point source location. With the levels set correctly, there is a near seamless interactions between the two - markedly better than I have heard, in my limited experience with high end mids.

2. The Pioneer 880prs will automatically reverse the phase between the mids and the subs if you perform the autoEq function and have them both crossed over at the same point. Why? Because it works better most of the time that way.

I really don't understand how Thnking can get away with saying "Phase coherency over pass bands between the mid-bass to subwoofer are very very rarely problematic".

headless
10-13-2006, 05:05 PM
Reversing phase on the sub + fronts makes a massive difference in my setup, both are crossed over @80hz and with them in phase with eachother the bass IS easily directionally noticeable. With the phase reversed, it sounds like it's emanating from the front at higher frequencies and like it's coming out of the center of your chest at the lower frequencies (never like it's behind you).

blue
10-13-2006, 07:04 PM
before you listen to anything this fool says read:


http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158012
(hebrew ham. proves him to be a douchefuc and he has nothing to say, just ignores the posts)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178941
(goes on to say anyone who likes eclipse knows nothing about music or how it should sound... and that he's never been flamed LAWL)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436
(even worse)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156802

(and again)

he has no credibility at all. all he does is argue about **** he has only the slightest knowledge about

Eugenics .... Why not leave this thread alone ? You were not invited , are not welcome here , and your ONLY purpose is to try and start crap. I don't need ANY kind of validation from you in any way , and have no desire to see you get in the way of people who may be trying to learn something.

Hundreth
10-13-2006, 08:34 PM
before you listen to anything this fool says read:


http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158012
(hebrew ham. proves him to be a douchefuc and he has nothing to say, just ignores the posts)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178941
(goes on to say anyone who likes eclipse knows nothing about music or how it should sound... and that he's never been flamed LAWL)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436
(even worse)

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156802

(and again)

he has no credibility at all. all he does is argue about **** he has only the slightest knowledge about

blue's credibility aside, what credibility do you have other than talking trash to people on an internet forum?

There wasn't even any hostility in this thread until you popped in and saw a chance to dog on someone.

Eugenics
10-13-2006, 11:02 PM
Eugenics .... Why not leave this thread alone ? You were not invited , are not welcome here , and your ONLY purpose is to try and start crap. I don't need ANY kind of validation from you in any way , and have no desire to see you get in the way of people who may be trying to learn something.

learning what? what YOU think is best? disregarding anything else?

springy101
10-14-2006, 12:01 AM
learning what? what YOU think is best? disregarding anything else?

i dont know if you read through all those links you posted but it has already been decided that blue is god :D

Thnking
10-14-2006, 01:15 AM
The only use I see for EQ in that region is to attack resonance issues. I dont see where its the absolute cure for sub/midbass integration UNLESS you have limited xover values/slopes and have no other choice.
There is obvious gain unity and SPL output matching which needs to occur through this region. These are the most typical problem with any setup when people lack mid-bass upfront. Thereís no other audible integration which is signal related. In fact I bet if you had the schematic of the passives on the Rainbow passives, youíd probably see notch filters and such doing exactly this.

Thnking
10-14-2006, 01:30 AM
Ughh ... Thnking , you are in over your head here. No offense meanst , but um ... NO , you are off with your line of reasoning.
People on this thread who are SINFULLY familiar with the Rainbow offerings , especially the Profi Kick being discussed , are VERY " in the know " about this subject from first hand experience , and Manny may have said it best ...... For INSANELY great mid-bass , beating the Profi Kicks is going to be VERY hard to do .... They truly are " **** " ;)
Insanely great is a relative term obviously. The quantity of mid-bass doesnít compare to something like an Adire Extremis, or a number of other speakers, but I never said it wasnít very nice or that the speakers arenít nice in general.
Everyone has their favorites, Iím simply stating why I wouldnít buy them for their price, you donít have to accept what Iím telling you and it doesnít matter to me either way.

Thnking
10-14-2006, 01:39 AM
I agree with Manny on his point about phase relationship and how crossover affects the need for its adjustment.

I am no where near Blue or Manny's experience level when it comes to tuning but I know two things.

1. I use beefy Rainbow mids (not "kickbass" models though) and they are crossed over at the same point as the sub is. Having them out of phase with each other has resulted in a much better frequency response and lack of sub point source location. With the levels set correctly, there is a near seamless interactions between the two - markedly better than I have heard, in my limited experience with high end mids.

2. The Pioneer 880prs will automatically reverse the phase between the mids and the subs if you perform the autoEq function and have them both crossed over at the same point. Why? Because it works better most of the time that way.

I really don't understand how Thnking can get away with saying "Phase coherency over pass bands between the mid-bass to subwoofer are very very rarely problematic".
I can say it because itís true. I very much doubt you can localize a sub, assuming the -16 or -18db point is around 250hz, you can probably localize the resonances of the surroundings.
As far as phase reversal, youíre probably able to better localize the midrange/treble when you have it properly aligned with the tweeters or just simply due to your setup. Youíre probably confusing the lack of localization with being able to localize the sub as you switch phase. Thereís no way to know for certain without analyzing your system.

T3mpest
10-14-2006, 02:30 AM
I can say it because itís true. I very much doubt you can localize a sub, assuming the -16 or -18db point is around 250hz, you can probably localize the resonances of the surroundings.
As far as phase reversal, youíre probably able to better localize the midrange/treble when you have it properly aligned with the tweeters or just simply due to your setup. Youíre probably confusing the lack of localization with being able to localize the sub as you switch phase. Thereís no way to know for certain without analyzing your system.

Very true, many times when people can localize a sub they are hearing resonance of surrounding objects in the rear. If a vehicle is very well dampened you can acutually get way with 80hz at 24db/octave sometimes, my cutlass worked that way anyway, no localization at all. (haven't tried my ford yet, ugh, ford+deading.......):uhoh: