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View Full Version : Crystals dont seem to cut it anymore...DIY?



jiggy2dmax
10-07-2006, 01:36 PM
Well my Crystals dont seem to be cutting it anymore. I've days trying to tune it with my subs and the bass seems to outdo it throughout the volume spectrum. I've been told by alot of people that I should consider a DIY setup. However, I don't have the experience tuning such a set. I dont have the space to do a 3-way setup so I was wondering what you guys would suggest for a single tweet and mid that can keep up with a RF2000. I have 2 amps that I can use, a Kicker 850.2 or a Eclipse 33430(85x4).

blue
10-07-2006, 01:41 PM
Well my Crystals dont seem to be cutting it anymore. I've days trying to tune it with my subs and the bass seems to outdo it throughout the volume spectrum. I've been told by alot of people that I should consider a DIY setup. However, I don't have the experience tuning such a set. I dont have the space to do a 3-way setup so I was wondering what you guys would suggest for a single tweet and mid that can keep up with a RF2000. I have 2 amps that I can use, a Kicker 850.2 or a Eclipse 33430(85x4).

Yes .... Rainbow Profi Kick CS265 .... Two way 6.5" component set with a mid-bass driver SOOOOOOO bad azz , it can keep up with the best of the SPL oriented subs , providing proper levels between sub and mid driver are set right of course.

camry_tuner
10-07-2006, 04:41 PM
what's your budget?

jiggy2dmax
10-07-2006, 07:45 PM
Well, I was thinking about selling both my Crystals and Eclipse amp so around~~300.

jiggy2dmax
10-07-2006, 07:46 PM
Kinda off topic, does anyone run more than one pair of tweeters? Im happy with my midbass but its seems just the tweets that cant keep up. Would it make sense to add a pair to the A-pillar or would it kill the soundstage?

alphakenny1
10-07-2006, 09:51 PM
Kinda off topic, does anyone run more than one pair of tweeters? Im happy with my midbass but its seems just the tweets that cant keep up. Would it make sense to add a pair to the A-pillar or would it kill the soundstage?

a lot of people have had success with running two sets of speakers. usually the one in the kicks are the main tweeters and the tweeters in the a-pillars are usually called "upstage" tweeters to raise the height of the soundstage. but you must have proper processing to do so.

ent3rdadragon
10-08-2006, 01:56 AM
which crystals are you talking about?

T3mpest
10-08-2006, 03:00 AM
What is your substage? Why people think 6.5 inch speakers on 150 watts are going to keep up with 15's with 1000+ watts I'll never understand. Just set your gains right, test phasing, deaden your doors AND then buy new speakers if your not pleased.

blue
10-08-2006, 12:17 PM
What is your substage? Why people think 6.5 inch speakers on 150 watts are going to keep up with 15's with 1000+ watts I'll never understand. Just set your gains right, test phasing, deaden your doors AND then buy new speakers if your not pleased.

Dude .... 15" subs NEED 1000+ watts to make realistic live sound levels , as it takes a LOT to get subs going correctly. 6.5" speakers only need a couple of hundred watts to achieve the same thing , especially considering they don't even have to play below about 80 hz or so. That's why the keep up just fine unless you are talking about a 180 db SPL vehicle , and then NO frontstage will keep up.
The whole " you need 8" drivers in the doors for a proper install line of thought is simple BS ....

thadman
10-08-2006, 12:42 PM
If you've got a high SPL sub, you NEED 8s or some crazy excursion 7s (extremis come to mind but they fall a little short too) to correctly level match between the sub and your front stage:D

I would HIGHLY recommend DIY though, very promising results for not very much money

jiggy2dmax
10-08-2006, 02:28 PM
What is your substage? Why people think 6.5 inch speakers on 150 watts are going to keep up with 15's with 1000+ watts I'll never understand. Just set your gains right, test phasing, deaden your doors AND then buy new speakers if your not pleased.

My gains are set correctly. Im not a new at this, Im new to the DIY part but def not to this. Right now I have my Crystals SSCS6 crossed at 90 getting 295 a side with the gains conservatively. Doors are fully deadened along with the rest of the car. Im considering trying a set of tweeters in teh A- Pillar just to see how it sounds and if it fits my bill.

T3mpest
10-08-2006, 02:53 PM
Dude .... 15" subs NEED 1000+ watts to make realistic live sound levels , as it takes a LOT to get subs going correctly. 6.5" speakers only need a couple of hundred watts to achieve the same thing , especially considering they don't even have to play below about 80 hz or so. That's why the keep up just fine unless you are talking about a 180 db SPL vehicle , and then NO frontstage will keep up.
The whole " you need 8" drivers in the doors for a proper install line of thought is simple BS ....


In car, with a most likely ported application, no they don't. Cabin gain is up to 10 decibels vs a open environment. Most 8 and 10 inch subs can play flat to 30hz in a car, easily due to cabin gain, no questions asked. To say a sub "needs" 1000 watts to keep up is total BS. What about the hundreds of subs on the market that can't take 1000 watts or aren't offered in a 15? You aren't trying to fill up a 30x30 room, just a small cabin.

I'm not saying you need 8's in your doors for a simple install. I'd say that's true if you really want to keep up with a major substage, but for a normal install it's not needed. What I am saying is that 99% of people who say "my comps just arent' loud enough" are using 500 dollars subs with 1000 watts of power in a ported enclosure and are then suprised when they can't match that with a 6.5 inch driver. So all I was trying to do was make sure he didn't fall into that category, in which case no suggestion we were going to make was going to help him.

95stroked1500
10-08-2006, 11:18 PM
i have to agree that just changing brands is not going to be the answer. you need to double up the components and get them as close together as you can. if you just want it to sound good and be loud, drop another set in there. and really, you can drop another set of what ever brand you want in. as long as it can take the power the crystal's can, you won't have one set maxing out and limiting the power you can push. it would be best if you get a diff brand, to get a set about as efficient.

"proper" by the sq book, no. will it work to get louder, sound just fine, and do the job, yes.

you don't have to have time alignment and all sorts of technical gizmo's. only if you're trying for perfect sound stage, etc, etc.. and if that's the case, then you need to reconsider your whole system.

jiggy2dmax
10-09-2006, 01:51 AM
i have to agree that just changing brands is not going to be the answer. you need to double up the components and get them as close together as you can. if you just want it to sound good and be loud, drop another set in there. and really, you can drop another set of what ever brand you want in. as long as it can take the power the crystal's can, you won't have one set maxing out and limiting the power you can push. it would be best if you get a diff brand, to get a set about as efficient.

"proper" by the sq book, no. will it work to get louder, sound just fine, and do the job, yes.

you don't have to have time alignment and all sorts of technical gizmo's. only if you're trying for perfect sound stage, etc, etc.. and if that's the case, then you need to reconsider your whole system.

Alot of people recommended me the same thing. The only thing im afraid of is killing the soundstage. The crystals sound amazing and get the job done, but just dont keep up. Im still conjuring up ideas so anyone is free to chime in.

T3mpest
10-10-2006, 03:01 AM
Alot of people recommended me the same thing. The only thing im afraid of is killing the soundstage. The crystals sound amazing and get the job done, but just dont keep up. Im still conjuring up ideas so anyone is free to chime in.

I guess now that I've ranted I'll try and help you. First off, do yuo have phase controls on your sub amp? If so, play with your subs phase, you may find it blends much better, like night and day differenes in some cases. If not, switch the wires, a full 180 shift can still make an improvement. Also, try putting your mids out of phase. If you don't have a variable control on those, physically switch one side using the wires. Depending on the distance between your mids, you may end up with increased midbass. It's hard saying, but phasing is a no cost method to possibly fix your problem. If that doesn't work, try turning your LPF a little lower. If your using 80hz, try 60hz or something in that area. You may find it blends better with a lower crossover point. Subs that play high tend to overpower frontstages.

If none of that helps, are you sure you don't have room for a 3-way? You don't even need large drivers, use whatever size midbass you have in your doors as a dedicated midbass, a 3-4 inch midrange and some 1 inch tweeters would do fine. If you have ANY real kick space you can do a 4 inch mid. By freeing up the drivers you'll have a much better chance of getting the impact you need to keep up with the sub. An active setup would be a great idea as well, especially if you can fit a 3 way, then you can put the tweets higher up without hurting your staging. 3 way active FTW, IMO. If your doing a 3 way passive, I'd say keep the tweet in the kick if at all possible.

lasty, I strongly recommend AGAINST adding another set of components. If you have room to fit 2 sets of comps, you have room for a 3-way, which is 1000000x over a better option. Another set of components is going to give you MAJOR phasing issues, even if placed close together, it's just not worth it, unless all you care about is "decent" sound (read better than stock) with lots of volume, if that's your goal then it may work for you, this is all IMO.

audiolife
10-10-2006, 09:25 AM
if you set up your system right you shouldnt have issues unless you arent getting what you want out of the sub. if you want it louder get something (amp and speaker wise) built to do it. beyma, boston acoustics ( will need a bigger amp), or even horns. its really a matter of how you have the sub set up and your listening habits.

jiggy2dmax
10-10-2006, 12:11 PM
Tempest, im happy with the Mid-bass. The left side is out of phase. I'm strongly considering going with a 3-way setup as I think thats for me and it'll give me what I want. Any recommendatons for good 3-way setups?

T3mpest
10-11-2006, 10:48 PM
Hmm, if your happy with the midbass then it's the higher frequencies that seem to be lacking vs your subs then? If your having problems telling exaclty what's wrong listen to an acoustic guitar, great mix of subbass and midbass. Plus almost everyone has heard a real one to compare it to. Anway, if you haven't changed your subs phasing, do that. I've seen that solve alot of integration problems, especially if you feel your midbass is good (I'm assuming you've had them both in and out of phase)

blue
10-12-2006, 12:02 AM
This is being made waaay too difficult. Rainbow Profi Kick Bass is the solution. The problem you are having is exactly what these speakers were designed to help with. They won't ruin your soudstage .... They won't require going to a 8" driver in your doors , and they WILL have more deep and strong mid-bass than ANY 3 way set-up that uses a 6.5 or 7" mid-bass driver.
Do it the hard and long way , or just buy the Profi Kicks and have it done. And uh , yes ..... Simply switching to THIS particular brand will be the answer ... Not because of the brand swap , but because they do mid-bass from a different approach. Read about it in the download section of Distinct International's web-site.... It's a PDF called " Kick-Bass Forever "

blue
10-12-2006, 12:11 AM
Tempest, im happy with the Mid-bass. The left side is out of phase. I'm strongly considering going with a 3-way setup as I think thats for me and it'll give me what I want. Any recommendatons for good 3-way setups?

Tempest was probably right on the money ..... It is probably an integration issue from your mid-bass drivers to your sub. That can REALLY smear the highs into sounding repressed.

In my store we sell Boston Z-Series , Focal's high end speakers , DLS , Seas Lotus , Polk SRS , and more ..... We also sell Rainbow. Now , that is a larger variety of true high-end speakers than MOST stores sell. And I can tell you that NO 6.5" driver can blend as well with the truly powerful modern subs as well as the Profi Kicks can. We know this from TONS of experience , not just foundless opinion. When your mid-bass drivers integrate seamlessly with your subs , the soundstage , imaging , and tonal balance of your mids and highs always opens up MUCH , MUCH better.
Good luck , and let us know what ends up working out for you.