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GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 09:16 PM
I have some Image Dynamic CD2 minibody horns.
I have some nice fiberglassed kick panels (See Avatar) that are currently set up for an aperiodic install, but can be easily modded to an average sized sealed enclosure. The kicks are for 8" speakers.

I really need some speakers, I'm tired of listening to my stock fronts. To power ONLY the midbasses, I have a precision power PCX4125, which will do 250x2 at 4 ohms, or 500x2 at 2ohms, or 125x2 at 8ohms.

Mainly, I want mids that will be able to keep up for the most part with the horns.

I have had a pair of Image Dynamics IDQ8's, installed aperiodic, but the aperiodic membrane wasnt set up right and they didn't get loud enough for me because of this. Sadly a coil on one of the speakers fried and I've been putting off getting them fixed.

I don't know where to start looking at madisound.com. I have been suggested the Critical Mass 8" driver, but I can't find any other information. And most importantly, I haven't done anything with car audio for about 4 to 6 months and I don't know jack anymore.

So, to reiterate,
I need a frequency response from about 60 to about 1.2 khz,
I need them to work in either an aperiodic or medium sized sealed kick panel,
I need them to be 8" in an appropriate coil alignment to use the amplifier's power effectively.

Help me out, please!
Brian

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 09:19 PM
Sorry to post again, but at Madisound just for starters I was looking at these two speakers, wondering if they would suit me:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3253610.29440&pid=1055
and
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3253610.29440&pid=1944

How can I tell how those speakers would do for me? My only concern is that they wouldn't get nearly as loud as I would want them to.

kicker06
09-17-2006, 10:18 PM
Dayton 8" mids

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-366

You would overpower them with that amp though.

80wrms @ 8ohms

You could probably be careful with gains. Lots of people seem to be getting these and say they Great, and look at the price too.

alteraudiousa
09-17-2006, 10:39 PM
just get the Dayton Reference 8in non-shielded 4ohm version http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-854. You amp would be alot for them. You could get the http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-833, but you have too much power on tap for them. It would still work but you barely have to move the gains. Also the frequency range for you won't work since it only goes to 800hz. This one http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-854 would work better as it can go to 1khz but thats at its limit.

CDT makes the M6 which would handle most of the power from your amp, definitely work for the frequency range but its an oversized 6.5 so its smaller. PM me if you got questions on them.

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:21 PM
alteraudiousa, your first link was to some Tang-Band speakers, however I found the unshielded version. I'll give it a shot for now, however if they aren't up to par I will be selling them and trying something else. I have some money to put into this, probably up to $500 just for the mids, but I have to have something that will do well in a medium sized sealed or aperiodic enclosure.

Soooo any other suggestions?

FoxPro5
09-17-2006, 11:32 PM
Do a search on the DIYMA (http://www.diymobileaudio.com) forum. You will find a ton of info and a lot of knowlegeable guys that can answer your questions.

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:33 PM
what about these? http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-100

kicker06
09-17-2006, 11:36 PM
They have the Freq range your looking for, they handle lots of power and are svc 8ohm. If you were good with your gains you could pull it off. They look pretty efficient too. Good pick! $50 too.

UndercoverPunk
09-17-2006, 11:42 PM
you fried the IDQ8's? YOU BASTARD! lol

I'm interested in this thread too.

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:42 PM
Or http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=2&id_descrizione=44&prodotto=53

UndercoverPunk
09-17-2006, 11:44 PM
Or http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=2&id_descrizione=44&prodotto=53

I'm VERY interested in those, I just need to find a dealer.
I think I'll ask PE if they can special order me a pair.

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:46 PM
you fried the IDQ8's? YOU BASTARD! lol

I'm interested in this thread too.

Fried a coil of one of them; its repairable but ID is being a sneaky wench for now and I can't get ahold of them. So tired of stock fronts and I want to try something new

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:47 PM
I'm VERY interested in those, I just need to find a dealer.
I think I'll ask PE if they can special order me a pair.

http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8NDL51-1.htm $125

UCP get on AIM pl0x :)

millerscents
09-17-2006, 11:56 PM
planet audio has some 8"

p80
100 rms - 200 max
35Hz-3kHz
90 dB
4 Ohm
vc 1-1/2

mounting depth 3-1/2

.45ft^3 sealed

priced about 50-55 each

GCAdidas13
09-17-2006, 11:56 PM
Already bought the B&C speakers in post number 13. IMPULSIVE SHOPPING FTW!

/thread

squeak9798
09-18-2006, 12:06 AM
Be careful with pro audio drivers....need large enclosures or low end response will suffer. That high sensitivity comes at a cost.....

Had you not already purchased, I would have recommended you purchase the Illusion Audio 8" comp set for sale on ECA and use the mids out of those.

GCAdidas13
09-18-2006, 12:22 AM
Be careful with pro audio drivers....need large enclosures or low end response will suffer. That high sensitivity comes at a cost.....

Had you not already purchased, I would have recommended you purchase the Illusion Audio 8" comp set for sale on ECA and use the mids out of those.

I'm actually going to try an aperiodic setup on them before i try sealed. They have a QTS of .37 (<.45) so they should work fine. I have the insulation, all I need now is something to compress and hold the insulation in place in the back of my aperiodic chamber.

T3mpest
09-18-2006, 04:04 AM
got room in your doors to do a 3-way? If volume is what your looking for it's your best bet. Your NOT going to find mid that will play 60-1.2k with enough oomph to really keep up with horns, those IDQ's were probably one of your best bets in a 2 way in the first place.

ngsm13
09-18-2006, 04:11 AM
I've seen those B&C's before... interested in hearing them...

nG

GCAdidas13
09-18-2006, 12:45 PM
got room in your doors to do a 3-way? If volume is what your looking for it's your best bet. Your NOT going to find mid that will play 60-1.2k with enough oomph to really keep up with horns, those IDQ's were probably one of your best bets in a 2 way in the first place.
:eyebrow:

T3mpest
09-19-2006, 05:15 AM
what mid can you think of that's at even close to 100db effecient that WILL play down to 60hz and up to 1.2k. Pro audio drivers are iffy, even in an AP. By the time you ask a driver to play that wide range you've comprimised power handling. Regardless, loads of power is only going to do so much. You may end up needing to put your mibass out of phase to get the lower midrange to image as high as those horn (rainbow effect is a *****), in which case your midbass goes bye bye. By the time you pad those horns down to get them to the level of the midrange, you've almost defeated the point of the extra effeciency.


I'm not saying 2-way horn setup's can't work. They've been known to work well in the past, classic JBL drivers are legendary for their 2 way horn ability, but impossihble to find! I'm just saying if your going to the extra effort to use horns in the first place, might as well really let them loose, the other drivers are ALWAYS the weak link in a horn install. By the time you get them setup right you have a hyper effecient, well imaging driver with amazing tonal characteristics, hard to match with a regular driver. Especially when your asking 1 driver to do it. If you don't have room, money, or willingness to try it, cool, different strokes for different folks, it was just a suggestion.

Anyway, I'll thow a couple drivers out

Dyn 170's
IDQ 8's
CX62's)
Dayton RS 7's
Morel WR-8's
B&C NDL51

sohzc
12-24-2006, 11:51 AM
I'm running the same setup but I 'm using kicker SSMB8 and I'm not a kicker fan but these are nice and they don't require any mounting depth I think they require 2.5" and they will hit the frequencey you need.

joe duce
12-26-2006, 06:24 AM
I'm running the same setup but I 'm using kicker SSMB8 and I'm not a kicker fan but these are nice and they don't require any mounting depth I think they require 2.5" and they will hit the frequencey you need.

not sure if i am getting this right but, are you using the kickers with horns?

sohzc
12-26-2006, 09:54 AM
Yes I'm running the ID horns and the Kicker 8" midbass and the ID crossovers. What is it that you don't understand.

sohzc
12-26-2006, 10:05 AM
But hold on guy , you are running some nice equipment but these guys are sending links to garbage you need to be looking at focal, morel, usd, dynaudio, kicker and rockford you cannot spend $40 dollars and expect to be happy you get what you pay and $40 dollars doesn't sound good.

Louisiana_CRX
12-26-2006, 10:28 AM
Yes I'm running the ID horns and the Kicker 8" midbass and the ID crossovers. What is it that you don't understand.


How much power are you running to that ?..I have a set of BNIB ID mini horns I was thinking about running with the ID crossovers...I was worried about the horns being over powering ...unless they are attenuated a bit throught the ID crossover....

GCAdidas13
12-26-2006, 11:12 AM
zomg hai guiz i'm all liek wo.

In case you guys are wondering, I ended up buying the B&C 8NDL51's.

I have them in 0.35 cubes each, sealed. They have a little bit of backwave distortion, soon I'll be installing some pads to absorb that. They have a very strong midbass :)

req
12-26-2006, 01:11 PM
son of a *****!!!

JAZN STOLE THEM FROM ME!!!

**** YOU TO HELL JAZN! :mad:

expo5.0
12-26-2006, 01:43 PM
i'm in the same position (almost)

however, by moving the low range i need up to as high as 150 hz (i run a 10" sub up front) and using the full body horns can i avoid the issues here?

what subwoofer would you drop in a .8 cubic foot enclosure (passenger footwell) with 500 rms x1 @2 ohms, with what mids (thinking 2 6.5s per side- can do any size enclosure if needed) at 125x4 @ 4 ohms? need to keep up with those cd2 comp full bodies

T3mpest
12-26-2006, 07:25 PM
But hold on guy , you are running some nice equipment but these guys are sending links to garbage you need to be looking at focal, morel, usd, dynaudio, kicker and rockford you cannot spend $40 dollars and expect to be happy you get what you pay and $40 dollars doesn't sound good.

You do realize that your paying for markup due to name, not due to driver quality. PE sells the same raw drivers drivers for a hundred dollars or so that are the exact same drivers that martin logan throws into boxes and sells for several, several, thousands of dollars. Raw drivers don't cost much money. Markup, crossover designs and other R&d that are involved in making a premade setup in a box cost money. Look at CDT, there ES line is simply rebadged vifa's. You can buy the same midbass drivers they use in their $700 line. Wanna guess how much, 45 dollars, LOL! You can find an equal quality tweeter, heck a better tweet for less than 50, again, using raw parts. Then if you have an onboard crossover in your deck, you've just made a $700 component set for under 150 dollars. Only difference being you can tweak your sound from the hu much easier. Just looking at specs, you can find lots of midbasses MUCH more competent than what your using all at less than 150 for the pair, no sweat.

expo5.0
12-26-2006, 08:24 PM
yeah, so which ones for me (hijackmaster)

squeak9798
12-26-2006, 08:33 PM
i'm in the same position (almost)

however, by moving the low range i need up to as high as 150 hz (i run a 10" sub up front) and using the full body horns can i avoid the issues here?

You plan to run the 10" sub in the passenger footwell up to 150hz?





what subwoofer would you drop in a .8 cubic foot enclosure (passenger footwell) with 500 rms x1 @2 ohms, with what mids (thinking 2 6.5s per side- can do any size enclosure if needed) at 125x4 @ 4 ohms? need to keep up with those cd2 comp full bodies

Budget?

Why do you want to run dual 6.5's?

Ever consider a true 3-way frontstage with horns?

squeak9798
12-26-2006, 08:35 PM
You do realize that your paying for markup due to name, not due to driver quality. PE sells the same raw drivers drivers for a hundred dollars or so that are the exact same drivers that martin logan throws into boxes and sells for several, several, thousands of dollars. Raw drivers don't cost much money. Markup, crossover designs and other R&d that are involved in making a premade setup in a box cost money. Look at CDT, there ES line is simply rebadged vifa's. You can buy the same midbass drivers they use in their $700 line. Wanna guess how much, 45 dollars, LOL! You can find an equal quality tweeter, heck a better tweet for less than 50, again, using raw parts. Then if you have an onboard crossover in your deck, you've just made a $700 component set for under 150 dollars. Only difference being you can tweak your sound from the hu much easier. Just looking at specs, you can find lots of midbasses MUCH more competent than what your using all at less than 150 for the pair, no sweat.



:word:


And the CDT ES (Vifa) tweeter can be picked up for a little over $26 from madisound.


It's okay though....he's new and apparently has some learning to do.

thadman
12-26-2006, 08:42 PM
I doubt the B&C driver has the displacement capabilities to really belt out <150hz with low distortion and authority...highly doubt

***** you already bought them:crap:

the Dayton RS225 can reach to 1000ish hz and sound phenomenal...there are better *dedicated* midbasses but the RS225 covers the midbass and all of the midrange at an absolutely spectacular price. The other option would be some Seas Excel W22s, but those are $$$.

T3mpest
12-26-2006, 09:02 PM
I doubt the B&C driver has the displacement capabilities to really belt out <150hz with low distortion and authority...highly doubt

***** you already bought them:crap:

the Dayton RS225 can reach to 1000ish hz and sound phenomenal...there are better *dedicated* midbasses but the RS225 covers the midbass and all of the midrange at an absolutely spectacular price. The other option would be some Seas Excel W22s, but those are $$$.

150hz shouldn't require [i]that[/]much excursion. Regardless, it's displacement your looking at. A 6.5 inch driver needs almost 2x the excursion to match an 8, not quite, but close. All in all, those are like 6-7mm strokes on a smaller diameter driver, which is quite healthy, wouldn't you say? If your looking for subbass type extension down to 70-80, yes they may be a bit taxed, but not much more than a standard driver. However, if you looking for TRUE midbass output 100hz-300hz, they fit the bill nicely. Especially since they are 90+db effecient in the first place. Just throwing loads of power on high excursion drivers doesn't quite do the trick in terms of dymanics. Those mids in an AP setup would work well. Honestly, the 10inch version will probably end up being my midbasses.

expo5.0
12-26-2006, 09:27 PM
I can add anything-

I already have the enclosure built for 1 10" sub up front and i already have a set of cd2 comp horns

My doors and kickpanels are currently built to hold 6 mids total (which i'm trying to get away from)

I have two 1004 mtx amps and i can rebuild the front to hold about anything- what would you run?

joe duce
12-26-2006, 09:46 PM
Yes I'm running the ID horns and the Kicker 8" midbass and the ID crossovers. What is it that you don't understand.

looks like i didn't read the whole thread properly, oops. sorry to highjack but i have yet to find anyone on any forums using these drivers with horns. it is something that i wanted to try because of the slim mounting depth of these drivers. my biggest concern was sound quality and output to match up with my horns (Veritas 66 series). how do you find the sq and output with your horns? i am going to use all active crossovers. one more thing is they list only up to 500hz on the top end of the specs but i am sure they can be used higher without any negative effects. i will be using crossover frequencies of around 60hz to 600-800hz. thanks for all your help.

joe

expo5.0
12-26-2006, 10:21 PM
seems there are a LOT of people looking for the best solution for that mid-range (up to 800hz or so) problem

squeak9798
12-26-2006, 11:53 PM
seems there are a LOT of people looking for the best solution for that mid-range (up to 800hz or so) problem


If you can run 3-way, with the midrange in kicks:

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4165767.248&pid=107

Though it's a pure midrange....I've *heard* they'll handle 175hz on a steep (24db/oct or higher) slope. Many people have ran them down to 300hz or so. But they definitely need to be mated with a competent midbass driver.


I would be pretty iffy about running the sub in the passenger side footwell up to 150hz and then leaving a mid to pickup from there. From what I've seen, most of the people who've tried something similar have had issues with it ruining the midbass soundstaging.


But...lots of people have used lots of various mids in 2-way horn setups. It really just depends on your budget.

expo5.0
12-26-2006, 11:57 PM
For that reason i'd really rather keep the 10" down very low (maybe only let it play 35-70 hz or so), but i'm struggling to find mids i can run which will provide the musical quality i want from that range all the way up to my horns.

i have enough spare amps and processing etc.- that i could go to 3-way PLUS the 10"

is that what i'm hearing is the best route- go to a 50-250 or 300 hz mid AND 250hz-850hz mid AND the horns?

squeak9798
12-26-2006, 11:57 PM
I doubt the B&C driver has the displacement capabilities to really belt out <150hz with low distortion and authority...highly doubt

***** you already bought them:crap:

He had his car at my house a few months ago. I was fiddling with my kicks at the time....so I didn't do a very in-depth listening session in his vehicle. Audiolife did though, and could provide a much better overall description of how they performed than myself.


Though there are quite a few other people using those same drivers in 2-way horn installs.

squeak9798
12-27-2006, 12:05 AM
For that reason i'd really rather keep the 10" down very low (maybe only let it play 35-70 hz or so), but i'm struggling to find mids i can run which will provide the musical quality i want from that range all the way up to my horns.

i have enough spare amps and processing etc.- that i could go to 3-way PLUS the 10"

is that what i'm hearing is the best route- go to a 50-250 or 300 hz mid AND 250hz-850hz mid AND the horns?

3-way frontstage horn installs definitely have their advantages, such as the ability to flip the phase of the midrange without affecting the midbass frequencies and the ability, such as with the above driver, to maintain high efficiency in the midrange and allowing you to find a good high output dedicated midbass driver instead of trying to find a single driver that comprises (and possibly compromises) a little of both.

That said; There have been plenty of killer 2-way horn installs over the years.


IMHO; If you already have the necessary processing and amplifier channels, and you can satisfactorily fit a 3-way horn setup in your vehicle without making large sacrifices sonically......it would be the route to go.

expo5.0
12-27-2006, 12:38 AM
yeah, i have no issues at all with customizing to fit whatever is needed.

what would be a recommended speaker for the 250-850 hz (for the kickpanel location then). will i be able to find some that can keep up with the horns well volume wise?

what would be a recommended speaker for the 50-250 range?

i'm just estimating with 250 being the cut-off

i'd research myself, but i'm at work... shouldn't be on here either

expo5.0
12-27-2006, 12:40 AM
keep in mind i have 125x8 @ 4 ohms to work with (the horns are going to take 2 of those channels and receive 62.5 wrms per side, and the 10 will take 2 channels as well) so functionally i'm looking at just 125x4 for the 50-250hz range (which does work out well for running this as a 3-way (4-way?) set

squeak9798
12-27-2006, 12:56 AM
yeah, i have no issues at all with customizing to fit whatever is needed.

what would be a recommended speaker for the 250-850 hz (for the kickpanel location then). will i be able to find some that can keep up with the horns well volume wise?


Already linked ya to it ;)


what would be a recommended speaker for the 50-250 range?

Depends on your budget and if you have any space restrictions. Ideally; 8" - 10"




Also...horns in 3-way frontstage.....with a single 10" sub.....that better be one potent little subwoofer or you'll never hear it.......

expo5.0
12-27-2006, 01:18 AM
i'm planning on an 8500 series mtx 10" with 2 channels of a 1004 on it

plus, it can be mostly just for show- and i'm fine with that

T3mpest
12-27-2006, 05:10 AM
Already linked ya to it ;)



Depends on your budget and if you have any space restrictions. Ideally; 8" - 10"




Also...horns in 3-way frontstage.....with a single 10" sub.....that better be one potent little subwoofer or you'll never hear it.......

that's true, I'm honestly worried about my 15, it's the undermuscled part of my next setup!

sohzc
12-27-2006, 10:41 AM
How much power are you running to that ?..I have a set of BNIB ID mini horns I was thinking about running with the ID crossovers...I was worried about the horns being over powering ...unless they are attenuated a bit throught the ID crossover....

Now don't laugh be I'm overpowering them to death I'm running a Zapco C2k 2.5 to them it is underated at 75 watts a channel. But they are taking it and they sound great with that amount of power.

sohzc
01-09-2007, 09:37 PM
looks like i didn't read the whole thread properly, oops. sorry to highjack but i have yet to find anyone on any forums using these drivers with horns. it is something that i wanted to try because of the slim mounting depth of these drivers. my biggest concern was sound quality and output to match up with my horns (Veritas 66 series). how do you find the sq and output with your horns? i am going to use all active crossovers. one more thing is they list only up to 500hz on the top end of the specs but i am sure they can be used higher without any negative effects. i will be using crossover frequencies of around 60hz to 600-800hz. thanks for all your help.

joe

The Sq is excellent and the mid bass is powerful and the output is great but you can use the active crossover to rise the horns or the midbass up or down what ever you think you need but Im about to put a RF Symmetry system to run my whole setup I will let you now how it sounds then.

96MaxGLE
01-09-2007, 09:44 PM
keep in mind i have 125x8 @ 4 ohms to work with (the horns are going to take 2 of those channels and receive 62.5 wrms per side, and the 10 will take 2 channels as well) so functionally i'm looking at just 125x4 for the 50-250hz range (which does work out well for running this as a 3-way (4-way?) set

WOW! 62.5w going to your horns! That is going to be EXTREMELY loud. I'm going to be powering my ID full bodies w/ a PPI Art A100, which is 25x2. I've heard horns don't need anywhere near the RMS.

T3mpest
01-10-2007, 11:21 AM
WOW! 62.5w going to your horns! That is going to be EXTREMELY loud. I'm going to be powering my ID full bodies w/ a PPI Art A100, which is 25x2. I've heard horns don't need anywhere near the RMS.

they don't. The only thing you'll have to remember is don't boost any frequencies when you eq, it wont' take alot to clip with 25 watts on tap, even with horns.

squeak9798
01-10-2007, 08:54 PM
WOW! 62.5w going to your horns! That is going to be EXTREMELY loud.

While that might be what the amplifier is rated at.....the horns won't actually see a power level even remotely close to that.

JonJT
01-11-2007, 10:15 PM
they don't. The only thing you'll have to remember is don't boost any frequencies when you eq, it wont' take alot to clip with 25 watts on tap, even with horns.

Even with ID's least efficient horns, your still looking at over 110 db's one meter away from the listening position. I don't think you really need to worry about clipping, assuming that amp actually produces what they say it will.