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View Full Version : Alphas... Some tweeters... Pics inside.



OlogyAudio
06-30-2006, 02:13 AM
Alpha Component set Prototype 1:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2442.jpg

Woven white Kevlar cone, textile dome, pretty basic but decent crossover...

Question of the day... Should there be a phase plug on the lowest end set or not? This will have about a $10 impact on price...

Grill... We need to make a cool little logo...:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2443.jpg

.75" silk dome tweeter, not quite sensitive enough for the Delta but they have a very refined sound.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2444.jpg

This silk dome tweeter is a definite step up from the set used with the basic Alpha set and seems to be the right tweeter for the Delta component set. It makes a great drop-in replacement for the Alpha's tweeter and I think it would be worth it to use this as the standard tweeter for the upgraded version of the component set.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2448.jpg



The basic Alpha component set is 2.5" deep, ~92dB/w though I haven’t had a chance to make sure the t/s are as simulated yet but it sounds to be about the simulated sensitivity so at least we are in the right ballpark.

Power handling is a mere 40 watts if you want to avoid going too far over xmax when you consider the high sensitivity and a 4th order high pass at 80hz... You should be fairly safe with up to 80-100 watts if you are just smart about it (turn it down if you hear too much distress). The midrange packs a whopping (hah… pretty typical though at this price though… Alpine Type X has 3.15) 2mm of xmax, also the set as-is is turning out to be a little less expensive than we thought so instead of $80 being the intro price, $70 may be in order assuming we get the reaction I'm expecting and we can justify a higher quantity order. $109 is the MSRP.

The modified motor design will make the midrange 2.8" deep and drop sensitivity to ~91dB/w though it will have 6mm of xmax and include 2 short paths with an aluminum phase plug as well... We are waiting to hear back about pricing on this though I expect the price to be in the $170 neighborhood with the same tweeter as the delta, $260 retail. Power handling is a full 120 watts mechanical, not to mention distortion will be extremely low given that it has a Kevlar fiber cone, phase plug, saturated pole, saturated top plate, and the 2 short paths.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2450.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a44/OlogyAudio/100_2451.jpg

Just need a logo...

As for the cone color white, black, and blue are all options… What would you prefer?

Beat_Dominator
06-30-2006, 02:16 AM
Fancy stuff..... where are the graphs?!?!!? :p:

Worlddre
06-30-2006, 02:17 AM
:word: life

lookin real good tho color matters not to me

OlogyAudio
06-30-2006, 02:37 AM
Fancy stuff..... where are the graphs?!?!!? :p:

So impatient! :)
I’ll see when Mark K is free I guess :)
I’d rather like to send both the Alpha variants at the same time though.

Gary S
06-30-2006, 02:52 AM
Unless the crossover is ruler flat and pretty low, maybe improving the crossover would be a better bang for the buck than a phase plug, and save the phase plug for the higher end sets? Maybe even add biwire/biamp terminals... sounds crazy, but some speaker/crossover designers have said that even biwiring to the same amp channel can be an improvement... and an extra set of lamp cord and two extra screw terminals for the consumer to biwire costs next to nothing.

Or maybe a bigger tweeter with lower crossover point potential for lower distortion and better off-axis response?

Plus, you need a beater set... phase plug can collect metal particles that can shorten the life of the product and make for more returns.

Lots of high end sets don't have phase plugs and still sound good.


The problem with the low priced sets seems to be weak crossovers... not professionally developed, small tweeters, and high crossover points... look at the Clarion set with the glass woofer and Crystal Kevlar components... the crystal does not even look like it has a soft surround on the tweet. But these are some of the best bang for the buck sets right now.

Color... I say go natural... too many speakers look like car wheels... we need to get away from that. I say go the natural color of the kevlar... probably white. Black would just look like another paper cone mid from a distance... and blue... that reminds me of the Memphis blue tweeter... looks cheap... and I think Audiobahn or Powerbase has a component system with a blue cone... don't go there, LOL!

Look at rainbow... yes, the top end metal cones look sharp, but the lower lines with paper cones don't look fancy at all.

Could you go with a bigger tweet on the $170 set at least?

The mids and the prices look fantastic though... that's the way I would make mids if I could.

Good luck... we need better value component speakers... most of them are overpriced.

ngsm13
06-30-2006, 03:22 AM
Be different, white...

nG

flakko
06-30-2006, 03:30 AM
FINALLY FINALLY!!! right when i install my my new front stage o_O anyways thats looking **** and at 70 bucks, thats lookin like a nice nice budget set

bumpin_blazer
06-30-2006, 04:09 AM
i'd say white. go black to be typical, go blue to IMO copy the zapco comps that are starting to show up every now and again. Go with white if you want to be different as most kevlar coated speakers are yellow or black.

OlogyAudio
07-01-2006, 03:16 AM
Unless the crossover is ruler flat and pretty low, maybe improving the crossover would be a better bang for the buck than a phase plug, and save the phase plug for the higher end sets? Maybe even add biwire/biamp terminals... sounds crazy, but some speaker/crossover designers have said that even biwiring to the same amp channel can be an improvement... and an extra set of lamp cord and two extra screw terminals for the consumer to biwire costs next to nothing.

Or maybe a bigger tweeter with lower crossover point potential for lower distortion and better off-axis response?

Plus, you need a beater set... phase plug can collect metal particles that can shorten the life of the product and make for more returns.

Lots of high end sets don't have phase plugs and still sound good.


The problem with the low priced sets seems to be weak crossovers... not professionally developed, small tweeters, and high crossover points... look at the Clarion set with the glass woofer and Crystal Kevlar components... the crystal does not even look like it has a soft surround on the tweet. But these are some of the best bang for the buck sets right now.

Color... I say go natural... too many speakers look like car wheels... we need to get away from that. I say go the natural color of the kevlar... probably white. Black would just look like another paper cone mid from a distance... and blue... that reminds me of the Memphis blue tweeter... looks cheap... and I think Audiobahn or Powerbase has a component system with a blue cone... don't go there, LOL!

Look at rainbow... yes, the top end metal cones look sharp, but the lower lines with paper cones don't look fancy at all.

Could you go with a bigger tweet on the $170 set at least?

The mids and the prices look fantastic though... that's the way I would make mids if I could.

Good luck... we need better value component speakers... most of them are overpriced.

1" domes won’t cut it for you? :) LPG quality comes to mind though I haven’t done an good A/B comparison with an equivalent high pass...

We should hear back from them Monday about pricing on the voice coil and be able to order samples at that point. :D

Gary S
07-01-2006, 09:02 PM
Sounds good to me... I'll probably buy a couple sets to play with.... looks like they will be the new "best bang for the buck" leader.

OlogyAudio
07-03-2006, 02:28 PM
Quotes are in, how does $120/set preliminary sale price, $190 retail sound? :naughty:
Samples should be done within 15 days.

Gary S
07-03-2006, 03:16 PM
I think that if the crossover point is low, and good, if it sums to flat anechoic, we will have a new hot component set. Maybe then I can replace my ridiculously priced Focal Utopias:D

More details on the crossover please... any ideas?

OlogyAudio
07-03-2006, 03:49 PM
I think that if the crossover point is low, and good, if it sums to flat anechoic, we will have a new hot component set. Maybe then I can replace my ridiculously priced Focal Utopias:D

More details on the crossover please... any ideas?

~3.5khz 12dB electrical but ultimately sums to ~4th order with driver rolloff and the midrange sounds slightly recessed right at the xover point. I would be able to measure this for you but my soundcard's driver is rather messed up and I can't reinstall it... It seems to be time for a good old reformatting or possibly just a new computer...

Its a pretty textbook crossover but it works rather nicely with driver rolloff even though its not as steep as I would personally like there is nothing I can do about this for now... I want to open a new tooling for a custom Cauer Elliptic crossover as an upgrade option down the road since this is the topology I will be using on the omega... Great group delay, great off axis response due to the very shart initial slope, lower parts count than a 6th order LR atleast... It has crossed my mind to contact Joseph Audio about infinite slope xovers for car audio since this is the obvious high end solution for car environments to prevent problems with summation near the xover point and lower comb filtering effects but they would be quite expensive and bulky since they are elliptic crossovers with transformers... The C-E topology is nearly as good…

I dropped mark K an email to see if he wants to measure these units, I'm particularly interested in getting objective data on these upgraded tweeters I have sitting here that sound to me like they are in the same league as the LPG just I think that about $45/pair sounds like a good price... :)

OlogyAudio
07-03-2006, 08:27 PM
Well I went ahead and built a very preliminary 3khz C-E filter... and :naughty:
…well it will be yet another monster xover... Even with this version of the midrange it sounds quite nice, the tweeter is defiantly LPG quality or possibly a little more refined and neutral sounding...

Comparing the C-E filter to the standard filter isn't even fair considering an upgraded high end xover will likely run almost the same price as the component set itself even if its manufactured in china. With the proper xover though, with this other midrange this will be a set to reckon with regardless of price. BTW the delta is going to be postponed until we get a new style of basket tooling made and a super nearly flat cone made without nasty breakup modes… We know exactly what we want to do and the Alpha is the funding :).

Gary S
07-03-2006, 10:23 PM
3.5 K, 12db electrical/24db acoustical sounds good enough to me.

I assume the tweeter has ferofluid... the self-damping characteristic of the oil sounds like what would push the crossover up to 24db acoustical.

I'm not sure a big crossover would be a problem.... it's not like trying to fit a 7" speaker in a 6.5" hole... those crossovers can be hidden behind a panel anywhere. I have a set of DEI Viper components here... the crossover is pretty good sized... measures 7.25" X 5.5"... but they are only 1.36" high. I think as long as they are not quite as big as those new full range "digital" Alpine amps, they might be fine.

Plus, I wonder if you could split the tweeter and midrange crossover into two sections for more installation flexability... now there's an idea!

OlogyAudio
07-03-2006, 10:55 PM
It is a huge gap in SQ between the standard xover and the C-E even with this measly lower SQ version of the midrange driver... Figure about 7x12" for the xover if we don’t skimp on parts quality lol...

My old xovers for the dayton RS drivers had separate boards for the tweeters and midwoofers because they were so large...

Gary S
07-03-2006, 11:14 PM
Yes, 12 X 7" is getting a little big... I would think you would want to keep it under 9" X 6" :D

Do you have a general link to this "CE" crossover you are talking about? - must be a relatively new type of crossover?

Save us some money... use electrolytic caps in everything but the series positions, LOL!

Edit: I wonder how expensive it would be to have an active crossover option for the higher end sets, like the Focal Utopia Be does? (Omega?)

OlogyAudio
07-04-2006, 12:06 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_filter

The steeper the slope, the more the ripple, about an 8th order target provides the best group delay and fairly low ripple at the xover point (less than +-1dB).

It is actually a fairly old filter style…
It has a very uniform power response, even better than a 6th order LR.

HitManSE
07-04-2006, 02:49 AM
Leave the color as is, so long as they sound good color doesnt really matter.