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thylantyr
05-12-2006, 01:16 PM
The classic topic, tubes vs. solid state. /lol/

Tube Amp Distortion.


Tube amplifier amplifying a 1khz sine wave.
http://hem.passagen.se/ebcpecz/Tube/PreAmp/images/1khz_sinus.jpg

Clean signal just like a solid state amp.

Tube amplifier over driven into high distortion.
Look at the shape of the sine wave, it's mangled.
http://www.siteswithstyle.com/VoltSecond/Paramour_iron/Paramour_Iron_Stock_LFT_pg4.html


Solid state amplifier clipping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Clipping_1KHz_10V_DIV_clip_A_5ohms-1-.jpg

The more you over drive the sold state amp the more it starts to look like a square wave.


Here's another where the tube amp is operating cleanly and as you over drive the tube amp,
the sine wave becomes mangled and eventually looks like a square wave if you over drive it enough.
http://www.diyguitarist.com/DIYStompboxes/ShTubeWaveforms.htm

req
05-12-2006, 01:35 PM
so whats this all supposed to mean to us?

from what i can tell, tube amps can get square waves jsut like solid state, just a different kind of clipping?

thylantyr
05-12-2006, 07:24 PM
so whats this all supposed to mean to us?

Food to exercise the brain... to make people say ... ummmm .........



...... to ignite a flame war :)


/jk

joetama
05-15-2006, 05:26 PM
It means nothing.... Some people like to play mother bird....

Tubes DO sound different than solid state, it's not better or worse just different.

heyman421
05-15-2006, 05:36 PM
Ohhh man, thanks a lot....

This picture's going to give me NIGHTMARES

http://www.siteswithstyle.com/VoltSecond/Paramour_iron/Pmr_exo_20Hz_2V_5ms_10d_coposit_50.jpg

thylantyr
05-15-2006, 05:41 PM
Tubes DO sound different than solid state, it's not better or worse just different.

The proper saying is.

Tube amplifiers can sound different or the same as a solid state amplifiers
depending on it's used. :yumyum: :)

Beat_Dominator
05-15-2006, 05:44 PM
Tubes clip less elegantly than a SS amp....but clipping is crap either way lol.

joetama
05-15-2006, 05:50 PM
Tubes clip less elegantly than a SS amp....but clipping is crap either way lol.

I would rather have a rounder distortion wave than a square distortion wave. Nothing like throwing DC at your system....

Your System Normally :peace:
Your System ON DC :awesome: :blowup:

Beat_Dominator
05-15-2006, 05:54 PM
DC sounds like angels to me :)

joetama
05-15-2006, 05:56 PM
It's worse than 'looking at the IDMax' in your sig lol....

Beat_Dominator
05-15-2006, 06:01 PM
:laugh:

thylantyr
05-15-2006, 07:28 PM
Tubes clip less elegantly than a SS amp....but clipping is crap either way lol.

That is the comedy. A low powered tube amp can be over driven easy into
excess distortion. A high powered SS amp will still be operating in the linear
region offering no excess distortion. Even though the tube is clipping more
elegantly, the SS amp offers no clipping. Which is better? /lol

thylantyr
05-15-2006, 07:35 PM
I would rather have a rounder distortion wave than a square distortion wave. Nothing like throwing DC at your system....

Your System Normally :peace:
Your System ON DC :awesome: :blowup:

I understand the DC analogy but technically it's not DC. DC = direct current
or constantly flowing. Clipped signal can't be DC, but I've often referred to it
as pulsed DC, but that's misleading too.

On the other hand, lets say you live in the world of Dungeons and Dragons
and you are a Liche Lord and you cast a spell called 'Time Stop', that clipped
signal may be DC for the duration of the spell or does current stop flowing?
:unsure: If current still flows under a time stop condition, then an AC sine
wave could be measured as DC because you captured the voltage at that
particular time and it's held there. /harr harr

DBfan187
05-15-2006, 09:52 PM
I understand the DC analogy but technically it's not DC. DC = direct current
or constantly flowing. Clipped signal can't be DC, but I've often referred to it
as pulsed DC, but that's misleading too.

On the other hand, lets say you live in the world of Dungeons and Dragons
and you are a Liche Lord and you cast a spell called 'Time Stop', that clipped
signal may be DC for the duration of the spell or does current stop flowing?
:unsure: If current still flows under a time stop condition, then an AC sine
wave could be measured as DC because you captured the voltage at that
particular time and it's held there. /harr harr:word:

It's not DC since the signal is still oscillating.

joetama
05-15-2006, 11:41 PM
But, it is still flat and constant for a considerable amount of time, which makes it DC. I still call it throwing DC. You can call it whatever you want, but it's still DC. And DC+speakers = bad news...

DBfan187
05-15-2006, 11:47 PM
No, it's not DC at all. It may look like DC on a scope, but it's still AC.


It's in there somewhere. - http://www.carsound.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4332&highlight=clipping

DBfan187
05-15-2006, 11:49 PM
here too - http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=126319

joetama
05-16-2006, 01:04 AM
I disagree, most amps will not let you clip them bad enough to get true DC, however clipping does cause DC. I have seen a PA loudspeaker catch fire and a cone leave the basket tearing the surround and the spider because of true DC, it may only be for a few milliseconds but it’s still DC. The reason the guy in the other forum could turn the 'clipped' signal into a sin wave is because of the shelving effect in a cross-over, think about it. You’re not going to agree with me I know but, who really cares anyway. Everyone has his/her own opinion of things.


Have a look at this article. Also, read the forum link with it, it's what this discusion could turn into!!!
http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm


Just a side note, it's generally just not a good idea to clip anything. If you need it louder buy more speakers, if your amp wont power them get one that will. Head room is something that I always learned to be very important.


Here also is a little tid-bit from QSC's history.

"...Over the next five years, reliability became synonymous with the QSC name thanks to several technological advances developed by Pat. In 1978 Pat's revolutionary "AC Coupled Amplifier Circuit," which allows high-voltage transistors to mount directly on a grounded metal heatsink, earned him a patent. The advance made manufacturing easier and less expensive by decreasing the chance that an amp would fail because of an insulator breakdown. It also increased cooling efficiency and current flow, resulting in better overall amp performance, and ultimately proved safer than conventional technologies. The design guaranteed that no DC voltage would pass through the amplifier, causing speakers to blow or amp failure. Competitors' amps at the time always sent DC voltage to speakers when output devices failed - a dangerous flaw that could severely damage speakers and potentially cause fires...."


Some amps that are produced TODAY will still throw DC when over-driven hard enough....

ngsm13
05-16-2006, 01:36 AM
Indeed.

nG

Beat_Dominator
05-16-2006, 01:38 AM
Clipping bad, DC good, we can all live together!

joetama
05-16-2006, 01:41 AM
Clipping bad, DC good, we can all live together!

LOL can we really????:pissed::slap:

:goodbad:

thylantyr
05-16-2006, 12:31 PM
I disagree, most amps will not let you clip them bad enough to get true DC, however clipping does cause DC. I have seen a PA loudspeaker catch fire and a cone leave the basket tearing the surround and the spider because of true DC, it may only be for a few milliseconds but it’s still DC. The reason the guy in the other forum could turn the 'clipped' signal into a sin wave is because of the shelving effect in a cross-over, think about it. You’re not going to agree with me I know but, who really cares anyway. Everyone has his/her own opinion of things.

That is another topic. The famous how do you blow up speakers, ie by
mechanical damage or thermal damage. I can drive any speakers with
square waves all day if I don't exceed 'mechanical or thermal' abilities.
The speakers you seen blow violated one or both of the rules, not by DC, but by overdriving
the speaker beyond it's limits due to power. A clipped sinewave is 2x more power.



http://sound.westhost.com/clipping.htm

He said

There is no doubt that a clipped asymmetrical waveform will generate a DC component in the output of an amplifier.

He walks the fine line by saying 'generates a DC component'.

It's a fine line subject matter. For instance, if I expand a sine wave eventually it may appear to be flat at the peak.
On the other hand, if we sample the signal over a longer time we clearly see the AC waveform. If you examine
clipping for a brief time it also appears to be DC, but if you sample the signal over time, it's not a DC signal over that
period of sampling.

A bad analogy would be looking through a telescope and a person seeing the object claims he sees dirt. But zoom out,
hey, it's the moon. /lol


Here also is a little tid-bit from QSC's history.

"...Over the next five years, reliability became synonymous with the QSC name thanks to several technological advances developed by Pat. In 1978 Pat's revolutionary "AC Coupled Amplifier Circuit," which allows high-voltage transistors to mount directly on a grounded metal heatsink, earned him a patent. The advance made manufacturing easier and less expensive by decreasing the chance that an amp would fail because of an insulator breakdown. It also increased cooling efficiency and current flow, resulting in better overall amp performance, and ultimately proved safer than conventional technologies. The design guaranteed that no DC voltage would pass through the amplifier, causing speakers to blow or amp failure. Competitors' amps at the time always sent DC voltage to speakers when output devices failed - a dangerous flaw that could severely damage speakers and potentially cause fires...."



There is three topics there. AC coupled amplifier means that it's not a DC
amplifier. A direct coupled amplifiers sometimes is called a DC amplifier because
if you apply a DC voltage on the input, it amplifies the voltage as DC. Some high
end manufacturers who fear capacitors in the signal path will opt to remove them
forcing their amp to be DC coupled. This isn't a problem unless your source sends
a DC voltage on the input. But the amplifier may have stability problems holding
the output at near zero volts so they install servos on the DC amp or hand
tweak offset with a pot as some DIY freaks do.

Making the amplifier AC coupled is more or less the common approach for
the majority of product because nobody needs an audio amplifier to amplify
1Hz or less and the capacitor issue can be resolved.

The second issue in that statement is amplifier failure. If the common amp
fails you force rail voltage on the speaker. This DC voltage isn't a guarantee
that a driver will fail. It depends on if the driver received mechanical damage
by being overdriven or is the voice coil able to dissipate the power in the
'stuck position'.

The third topic is amplifier cooling.

Clipping bad, DC good, we can all live together!

Nobody is arguing, it's just normal 'lets post controversial subject matter' and wing poo in the fan :lol:

joetama
05-16-2006, 01:12 PM
Wing Poo in the fan huh? I'm standing behind the fan so your the one getting **** all over you lol.....:thumbupw:

ngsm13
05-16-2006, 02:17 PM
Wing Poo in the fan huh? I'm standing behind the fan so your the one getting **** all over you lol.....:thumbupw:

lawl...

nG

thylantyr
05-16-2006, 02:50 PM
Poo shield at 18%.................. need more power!


[not tube power :) ]

JimJ
05-16-2006, 06:05 PM
Saying "tube distortion" and "solid state distortion" is implying that all tubed amplifiers are designed the same, and all solid state amps have similar output topologies - there aren't very many SE MOSFET designs (Nelson Pass' Zen is the only one commercially that I can think of), but Class A designs exist out there. A SET tubed stage will behave differently than EL34's running PP.

Can't just lump them all together...

DBfan187
05-16-2006, 10:27 PM
http://www.carsound.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4332&highlight=clipping



Same thing. Power -causes- cone movement. The clipped wave doesn't cause the coil to remain still at the peaks because the speaker works as an electrical and mechanical low-pass filter and the sudden stopping to stay still is a high frequency phenomenon. If you low-pass the clipped output the "edges" and "flat tops" of the signal disappear. The high frequency output of the amplifier doesn't cause much power dissipation in large woofers as their impedance is higher at those frequencies.

Too much power is the ONLY thing that will destroy a well built speaker. Too high a peak power can cause it to move too far, and cause mechanical failure. Too much RMS power for too long will cause thermal failure.

A clipped signal will not damage any speaker, if it is at a level low enough so that the heat can be dissipated, and it doesn't move far enough to mechanically damage it.

Take a square wave source signal from any number of test CDs, and play it through your system at a low volume. If you have a power supply on the system, you can play that 100% clipped signal indefinitely, and the system will never miss a beat.

As Rob said, a square wave is not made up of positive and negative DC components. The true makeup of a square wave is the fundamental frequency signal, combined with all of the harmonics of that fundamental.The combination of the many different, but related, sine waves results in a square wave.

You can prove this for yourself by running a low frequency square wave signal into a variable crossover, and look at the output on an oscilloscope. with the crossover bypassed, the square wave will be perfect. But, engage the low pass filter, and begin bringing it down towards the fundamental frequency, and the wave shape begins to look like a slightly clipped sine wave. If you turn the crossover point all the way down to the fundamental frequency, the scope will display a perfect sine wave.

Just something for those with nothing better to do this weekend...


The only thing that thermally damages speakers is power... more specifically: average power over time.

I'll explain...

If you take a given amplifier, let's say 100 watts and operate it just below clipping with music material, the "Crest Factor" of the amplifier's output is equivalent to the "Crest Factor" of the program material.

"Crest Factor" is the difference between the average level of the signal and its peak level. For example, a pure sine wave has a "crest factor" of 3dB, meaning that it's peak level is 3dB higher than its average level. We all know that 3dB represents a power factor of 2, so another way to look at it is that the peak power of the signal is twice that of its average level. So, if we play a sine wave on our 100 watt amplifier, just below its clipping level, the average power (over time) the speaker is needing to dissipate is 50 watts.

A true square wave, by comparison, has a crest factor of 0db, so it has equal average and peak power. Our 100 watt amplifier, playing a square wave, unclipped, into our speaker requires that the speaker dissipates 100 watts of power (twice the heat as a sine wave).

Music has a significantly higher crest factor than sine waves or square waves. A highly dynamic recording (Sheffield Lab, Chesky, etc.) typically has a crest factor of 20dB or more, meaning that its average power is 100 times lower than its peak power. So, if we play our 100 watt amplifier just below clipping with the typical audiophile recording our speaker is only needing to dissipate 1 watt of average power over time.

Modern commercial recordings typically exhibit crest factors of around 10dB, meaning that the average power is 10 times lower than the peak power. So, our 100 watt amp just below clipping would deliver an average power over time of 10 watts that the speaker has to dissipate.

Okay, so what happens when we clip the amplifier (which we all do at times). When the amplifier enters into clipping, the peak power no longer increases, but here's the KEY... THE AVERAGE POWER CONTINUES TO INCREASE. We can often tolerate a fair amount of clipping... as much as 10 dB or more above clipping with a reasonably dynamic recording... a bit less with a compressed commercial recording.

So, if we turn the volume up 10dB higher than the clipping level with our Sheffield Lab recording, we have now reduced the crest factor of the signal reaching the speakers by 10dB... so instead of needing to dissipate 1 watt average, we are asking the speaker to dissipate 10 watts average, and we're probably ok.

If we turn up the volume 6dB past clipping on a compressed commercial recording (or bass music recording), we have taken the crest factor of the signal from a starting point of 10dB to only 4dB, asking the speaker to dissipate an average power of 40 watts instead of 10 watts... that's FOUR TIMES the average power, which generates four times the heat.

SO, in most cases, the reason clipping can damage a speaker really has nothing to do with anything other than an increase in average power over time. It's really not the shape of the wave or distortion... it's simply more power over time.

When someone plays Bass Mekanik clean (unclipped) on a 1000 watt amplifier the average power is 100 watts (10dB crest factor). You can also make 100 watts average with Bass Mekanik by heavily clipping a 200 watt amplifier.

If someone is blowing a woofer with 200 watts of power due to a lack of restraint with the volume control... they will blow it even faster with a 1000 watt amplifier because they will probably turn it up even more and now they have more power to play with... this is the recipe for aroma of voice coil.

When woofers are rated for power, an unclipped signal is assumed. We use test signal with a crest factor of 6dB for power testing and can run a speaker at its rated power for hours and hours on end without thermal or mechanical failure. For example, a W1v2 can dissipate 150 watts average power for eight hours or more with signal peaks of 600 watts. So, we rate the speaker for 150W continuous power. This way, when a customer needs to choose an amp for it, they will hopefully choose one that can make about 150 W clean power... Even if they clip the bejeezus out of that amplifier, it is unlikely that the speaker will fail thermally. This is a conservative method, but it needs to account for the high cabin temperatures in a car (think Arizona in the summer) which significantly impacts heat dissipation in the speaker. A top plate that starts at 150 degrees F is not as effective at removing heat as one that starts at 72 degrees F in the lab... and this affects the ramp up of heat in the coil.

DISCLAIMER: The frequency components of clipping can affect tweeters due to their low inductance and lack of low-pass filtering. Clipping essentially raises the average power of high frequencies to a point that can damage tweeters... Woofers and midranges couldn't care less about these high frequency components because their filtering and/or inherent inductance knocks that stuff out of the picture.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


A clipped signal carries more average power than a non-clipped signal... this is the only aspect of it that affects a speaker thermally.

It doesn't matter if the signal is clipped before the amp at the preamp level or after the amp.

A sine wave can damage a speaker in a matter of seconds given enough power and in a matter of minutes at fairly moderate output... it depends on the impedance of the speaker at that particular frequency... if the impedance happens to be low, it might go up in smoke in a couple of minutes.

I would clarify that futher, sprexumn....

The fact that a signal is clipped does not make it inherently damaging... if the average power of the clipped signal is low it won't ever damage a speaker. At higher power levels, the fact that a clipped signal carries more average power over time can result in damage.

The fact that tweeters have low inductance, do not employ low-pass filters and have small, delicate voice coils makes them more susceptible to damage from a clipped signal than a woofer or mid.

Does that make sense?

It just points out that the old statement of an amp that is too small will damage speakers more than a more powerful amp is entirely dependent on the use of each amp... if you clip both amps to the same extent, the more powerful one will blow speakers faster.... but it is possible to make a small amp operated into clipping produce as much average power as an unclipped larger amp (even though the peak power is greater on the big amp).

When you clip an amp you not only increase distortion, you also compress the dynamic range of the signal... the distortion isn't what kills the speakers (except tweeters in some cases)... it's the dynamic range compression that really does it.

DBfan187
05-16-2006, 10:32 PM
more excerts from same thread...


Only way a voicecoil burns up ... "prematurely" or otherwise ... is excessive electrical input power, converted to heat in the coil's resistance.

Now, since amplifiers are like voltage sources, power is ~V^2/R. So you've only got two options for explaining coil burn-up:

1. A surprisingly large RMS voltage may be delivered to the coil during amp clipping, as described (very well, in good detail) above. Well, "surprisingly large" ... to someone that hasn't gone through the calculations :D

2. The input impedance of the coil drops during clipping, allowing more current to flow and therefore more heat. I think there's a possibility of this, IF the sub reaches an excursion limit (motional impedance dropping to simply voicecoil resistance, allowing more current to flow through the coil, therefore more heat). But I sure don't see it from amplifier clipping.

Bottom line : Coils burn from excessive power, nothing to do with waveform shape. If you want to explain burned coils, you gotta explain where the extra power came from ... pure & simple

It's incorrect to think of a squarewave as made up of positive and negative dc components. If you look in the frequency domain (through a fast, or if you're in no hurry, a slow, Fourier Transform), you'll see exactly what's been described : the fundamental plus higher order odd harmonics. There will be no energy present at DC ... the "zero hertz bin" will be empty.

Bottom line : there's no DC present in a squarewave, unless it's asymmetrical about the y-axis. In the time domain, the only way any waveform can have a DC component is for it to have a non-zero average value ... but the average must be computed over a long time ... a very long time indeed ... to qualify as DC

Well, if it's changing polarity within your frame of reference then it's not DC anymore. Your square/sawtooth/triangle/sine wave, unless at a tremendously low frequency, will most certainly be changing within any size of reference frame you choose. I'll sum it up this way: if a capacitor will pass it, then it's not DC. A capacitor that will pass the fundamental will also pass a square wave unmolested (assuming the capacitor is non-polarized and has negligible ESL).

Rob is of course correct
I'll simply add this : If it changes in time, it's not DC.

DBfan187
05-16-2006, 10:40 PM
and more........


There can be aperiodic aspects to a musical signal, but not DC components.

What does DC sound like?


"DC" most certainly is an "average over time" ... but the million dollar question is, how much time?

Strictly speaking, the answer is easy ... over all time. But that's rarely very helpful :D

At the other extreme, it's reasonable to believe we can't average over a millisecond, and call that "DC". So what's a reasonable time interval?

I'll float a trial balloon, and suggest the following :

To be considered DC, the averaging time interval must significantly exceed all interesting time constants of the system.

These time constants include electrical ... the familiar "RC" time constants of first order fitlers, for example ... as well as any thermal time constants. Only when the time interval exceeds any "knowledge of time" that the system contains, would we be justified in considering a signal to be "DC".
Where did the extra power come from? :word:

It was the extra power form turning up the gain that burnt the speakers not the clipping.
You could play a CD of clipped waveforms all day and as long as you stay within the power capabilities of the driver there will be no damage.
There's no DC component in a zero-centered square wave. A DC component is present when a wave isn't centered around zero anymore, not when parts of it are flat. Those flat parts indicate presence of high-frequency content, not DC.

It doesn't look like DC on a scope, it's flat. DC on a scope is offset from 0, not just flat. And it doesn't work like DC in a coil--put a square wave through a coil with a high enough inductance and you end up with a sine wave. Durr...

Maybe I can add some clarification.

There's several interesting aspects of power. The most fundamental one is "instantaneous power". Power is itself a function of time, defined simply as :

Instantaneous power:

p(t) = v(t)*i(t)

For many applications of interest, including resistive heating, the useful "metric" is average power :

Average power :

Pav = Time integral (average) of p(t)

Average power is of interest anytime the waveform is changing much faster than the thermal time constants of the system ... in other words, the typical resistor has thermal mass & capacity that realize a thermal "low-pass" filter ... meaning the resistor itself is performing the "averaging" that makes average power the relevant metric for resistive heating. Obviously, the average power would be less meaningful for a power waveform that has a period of one hour, for example. Make sense?

Now, to aid in average power calculations, the concepts of "RMS" values of voltages and currents were developed. In the most general form, for power delivery into reactive loads, the Average Power is :

Average Power into reactive load

Pav = Vrms*Irms*(Power Factor)

where the power factor is simply the cosine of the phase angle between voltage and current.

From this relationship, it's easy to see, for example, that although instantaneous power can be delivered to a purely inductive load, the average power delivered to a purely inductive load is zero. This is equivalent to saying that the average power dissipated, as heat, by an inductor is zero.

A few other random comments :

- the voicecoil inductance of a sub will rarely influence the power delivery. Yes, if we consider the inductance to be in series with the coil resistance (an accurate model), it seems as though we are dealing with a reactive load, and therefore a power factor of less than unity. However, most subs are crossed-over well below the coil resistance/inductance corner frequency, so the coil inductance has little significance for power delivery.

- within the use-able subwoofer frequency band, however, there certainly is a reactive impedance near the driver's resonant frequency. And this reactive component certainly does make average power delivery calculations more complex than a simple resistive load. But an amplifier clipping will not change this reactive impedance component. The sub reaching an excursion limit will impact this "motional impedance" ... but the sub simply has no knowledge that the amp is clipping versus faithfully reproducing an input signal that appears "clipped".

- when is a signal DC? It's DC if it remains constant longer than any time constants of the system ... electrical, thermal or mechanical. A squarewave at 20Hz won't qualify ... there's at least one electrical high-pass filter with a lower corner frequency than the 20Hz fundamental, and the thermal time constants of the sub's motor & coil are most likely longer than 50msec as well.

Just lots of thoughts ... not sure any of it really helps :confused:

It indicates an incomplete set of math skills.

It looks like DC on a scope but it is not.
WORLDS SIMPLEST TEST FOR DC IN A SIGNAL
take that same scope and change the coupling
from DC to AC,
I bet any audio frequency square wave will look the same.

does it act like DC? If you assume most of the speaker impedace is resistive, and understand what werewolf said about power in other posts, the answer is yes for generating heat, but no for causing oneway excursion.

DBfan187
05-16-2006, 10:41 PM
Mansville Smith is my new hero.:D

He's the brains behind JL Audio.

joetama
05-17-2006, 12:16 AM
You want a cookie? :hihorse:

DBfan187
05-17-2006, 02:24 PM
yes. soft chew chocolate chip please.

Beat_Dominator
05-17-2006, 09:27 PM
If you want to prove this debate, take a SS amp that does over 300w per channel, and play a test tone at full volume with gain all the way up..... and put the + and - leads for the speaker in your mouth.

JimJ
05-17-2006, 09:55 PM
Tingly.

IamDeMan
05-18-2006, 10:32 AM
If you want to prove this debate, take a SS amp that does over 300w per channel, and play a test tone at full volume with gain all the way up..... and put the + and - leads for the speaker in your mouth.I do this when I run through all my 9 volt batteries :D :D

thylantyr
05-18-2006, 06:57 PM
Magic


abracabrrrra
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678660

JimJ
05-18-2006, 07:59 PM
lol

I may be picking up an ARC SP-9MKIII in the coming weeks, if the guy hasn't already sold it...

Beat_Dominator
05-18-2006, 08:02 PM
Stop buying stuff.

JimJ
05-18-2006, 08:07 PM
I returned the LS-1, the SP-9 was only $50 more and has the 6922 phono stage built in :D

I'm slowly finishing everything...I have the speakers, subwoofer, and now with the monoblocks, the amplifiers chosen. All that's left is to get a suitable preamp/phono stage and the turntable, now that I've settled on the SL-1200 :)

If the guy has already sold the SP-9MKIII when I go back home, my next choice is either a Rogue 66 (the one you gave me a link a while back for) or a CJ PV-10A. But the Conrad Johnson is one ugly piece of equipment, lol.

Beat_Dominator
05-18-2006, 08:11 PM
CJ is local goodness though :drool:

Built in phono is enough for me right now too, When I graduate and have a real job I might be able to afford the speakers I'll need to warrant seperate phono's and stuff.

JimJ
05-18-2006, 10:19 PM
Bah, I should just get an HTIB :D :D

thylantyr
05-26-2006, 05:23 PM
A man walked into a curio shop in Galveston Texas. Looking around at the
exotica, he noticed a very life-like, life-size bronze statue of a rat. It had no price
tag, but it looked so striking that he decided he must have it. :yumyum:

He took it to the owner and asked "How much is the bronze rat?" :bowdown:

"Twelve dollars for the rat, a hundred dollars if you bring it back," said the owner.

The man gave the shop owner twelve dollars. "I'll take the rat; and I won't be bringing it back." :nono:

As he walked down the street carrying the bronze rat, he noticed that a few real
rats had crawled out of alleys and sewers, and began following him down the
street. This was a bit disconcerting, so he began to walk a little bit faster. Within
a couple of blocks, the group of rats behind him grew to over a hundred, and
they began squealing. :scared:

He started to trot towards the Harbor. He took a nervous look around and saw
that the rats numbered in the thousands, maybe in the millions, and they were
all squealing and coming towards him faster and faster. Terrified, he ran to the
edge of the water and threw the bronze rat as far out into the Harbor as he
could. :smash:

Amazingly, the millions of rats all jumped into the water after it, and were
drowned. The man walked back to the curio shop. "Aha," said the owner, "You're
bringing it back !"

"Actually no," said the man. "I came back to see how much you want for that
little exotic bronze tube amplifier over there. :idea:

Beat_Dominator
05-26-2006, 05:24 PM
Worst...punch line.......evAr.