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View Full Version : Is this usefull at all or is it marketing bs..



btnhfan
04-26-2006, 09:16 PM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Y2ZF/ref=pd_kar_gw_3/103-4866929-3351845?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=172282


Cleaning the ac power to make everything clearer?

ngsm13
04-26-2006, 09:21 PM
It is useful. Smooths out ripples in AC voltage, cleans up the noise that is in a lot of AC lines... essentially gives you clean power...

I recommend PureAV power conditioners as well.

nG

btnhfan
04-26-2006, 09:23 PM
Ah cool.


Do you have one of them?


Ill have to look into those pureav ones.

Echo42987
04-26-2006, 09:27 PM
I have one on my system...it's just a lot nice...

Those come in handy big time! I would recomned them for having more then 3 components set up

-Nick-

btnhfan
04-26-2006, 09:29 PM
Noah is this like the one you were talking about?

Its the cheaper one.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?CategoryID=cat08201&id=1097580924179&skuId=6831039&type=product&DCMP=KNC-TLC&ref=25&loc=PGR

thylantyr
04-26-2006, 11:44 PM
Big debate right now on AVS forum about power conditioners. I made a comment,
but the battle rages on.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=656581

My post on that forum was;

This topic shouldn't be hotly debated. It's an easy one.

You should only solve problems that exist in your scenario, not every installation is the
same. Save these issues for last and then determine if you have problems with your
install and then try to figure out how to eliminate it.

Akin to seeing a doctor. Do you take pills to fix medical problems you don't have or do
you diagnose each problem and treat it accordingly ?

10 more pages of BS posts after that because most people don't understand.

btnhfan
04-27-2006, 02:47 AM
Thanks.

Ill look into it.

AcidicDreams
04-27-2006, 04:38 AM
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

read #8

joetama
04-27-2006, 01:32 PM
I use the PureAV because it was nicer than the Monster. I made the guys at Best Buy hook both of them up side by side and I then A/B them back and forth.

TRUE STORY!!!!! LISTEN ALL YOU UNBELIEVERS!!!!

Case 1: In my apartment last year, the power was horrible. When the neighbor was running something of his I could tell because there was buzzes and odd noises. Not loud ones just faint ones. But they were annoying none the less. I got the conditioner and IT STOPPED, plus the RF noise that was screwing up my TV almost went away!!!

Case 2: I work for a sound and communications company, so over the summer I brought my conditioner with me just because I was still some what of a skeptic. We were at Bowling Green, Ohio at the Nation Tractor Pulls and the Power ***** every year there. We end up running isolators for signals, and line transformers to get the noises to go away. So instead, we ran all the audio Equipment off my Conditioner, and every little noise that we had before WAS GONE!!!!

Case 3: The communications side of where I work does Two-Way radio rentals, and we rent out 2 different types of repeaters, Kenwood TKR-820 and TKR-850. These repeaters are both very clean sounding and are noted as one of the truest sounding repeaters. However at 2 locations, Red Bud Motocross Park in Buchanan Michigan (former home of EV) and again at Bowling Green we had noise problems. We installed Tripplite conditioners/protectors, and the noise went away! Go figure.

Say what you want, but I KNOW they work.

thylantyr
04-27-2006, 04:37 PM
I use the PureAV because it was nicer than the Monster. I made the guys at Best Buy hook both of them up side by side and I then A/B them back and forth.

TRUE STORY!!!!! LISTEN ALL YOU UNBELIEVERS!!!!

Case 1: In my apartment last year, the power was horrible. When the neighbor was running something of his I could tell because there was buzzes and odd noises. Not loud ones just faint ones. But they were annoying none the less. I got the conditioner and IT STOPPED, plus the RF noise that was screwing up my TV almost went away!!!

Case 2: I work for a sound and communications company, so over the summer I brought my conditioner with me just because I was still some what of a skeptic. We were at Bowling Green, Ohio at the Nation Tractor Pulls and the Power ***** every year there. We end up running isolators for signals, and line transformers to get the noises to go away. So instead, we ran all the audio Equipment off my Conditioner, and every little noise that we had before WAS GONE!!!!

Case 3: The communications side of where I work does Two-Way radio rentals, and we rent out 2 different types of repeaters, Kenwood TKR-820 and TKR-850. These repeaters are both very clean sounding and are noted as one of the truest sounding repeaters. However at 2 locations, Red Bud Motocross Park in Buchanan Michigan (former home of EV) and again at Bowling Green we had noise problems. We installed Tripplite conditioners/protectors, and the noise went away! Go figure.

Say what you want, but I KNOW they work.

Your experience doesn't violate my post above.

summary: Don't fix problems that don't exist.

Line conditioners have electronic components to solve specific problems,
just like Aspirin will solve specific problems, but we don't take pills unless
we need them. {unless someone is a druggy :crazy: }

ngsm13
04-27-2006, 04:47 PM
Your experience doesn't violate my post above.

summary: Don't fix problems that don't exist.

Line conditioners have electronic components to solve specific problems,
just like Aspirin will solve specific problems, but we don't take pills unless
we need them. {unless someone is a druggy :crazy: }

:rolleyes:

I'd rather just have a COMPLETELY clean line, than one with even SUBTLE dirtyness that I can't necessarily hear on a daily basis. Also, it cleans up spikes and such as well.

Summary: Don't listen to thylantyr, he is FAR from the end all be all...QUITE far!

:crap: :up2somet: :cool: :D

nG

joetama
04-27-2006, 04:58 PM
Line conditioners have electronic components to solve specific problems.{unless someone is a druggy :crazy:}

So, unless you have perfect power, which I don't think you have it would be useless. However, I am pretty confident in saying 99% of house holds have a considerable amount of noise in their power.

And, it's not like taking drugs. It's like this; if you have a headache it's caused by something. So you could take aspirin to fix it which would solve the symptom but not cure the problem. For instance if you were getting a headache from having a brain tumor then the aspirin wouldn't fix the problem of a headache, but if you got the tumor removed that would fix the problem.

thylantyr
04-27-2006, 05:00 PM
:rolleyes:

I'd rather just have a COMPLETELY clean line, than one with even SUBTLE dirtyness that I can't necessarily hear on a daily basis. Also, it cleans up spikes and such as well.

Summary: Don't listen to thylantyr, he is FAR from the end all be all...QUITE far!

:crap: :up2somet: :cool: :D

nG

There is no such thing as an absolute in analog filtration, hence the word
COMPLETELY clean line is not applicable.

If you want to filter noise you can't hear, there is nothing stopping you from
doing so.

Also, it cleans up spikes and such as well.

This comment is akin to saying "my water filter cleans dirty water", if so,
then take a **** in the filter and drink the results if you are so confident :cool:

joetama
04-27-2006, 05:04 PM
This comment is akin to saying "my water filter cleans dirty water", if so,
then take a **** in the filter and drink the results if you are so confident.

But you are cleaning water, not **** right? And which is better, cancer causing city water or something that has passed through a filter?

ngsm13
04-27-2006, 05:14 PM
Using a water analogy eh?

This is akin to saying, "Just because I can't see the impurities, it's okay to drink"...

So I'll produce you some water that LOOKS clean... are you going to drink it without hesitation?

nG

thylantyr
04-27-2006, 05:39 PM
So, unless you have perfect power, which I don't think you have it would be useless. However, I am pretty confident in saying 99% of house holds have a considerable amount of noise in their power.

I wouldn't say 99%, it depends. Lets use my house an example.
There are three computers, two fridges, lights, few televisions
and random appliances.

SMPS found in computers will have filtering to prevent noise from leaking back
into the AC mains.

Your fridge only creates a spike during turn on, then after that it's ok
and it never operates 100% of the time.

TV's aren't a real problem either.

Point is, I would say that for the majority of the time if not all the time,
there is no AC noise issue that contaminates my audio system, I'm sure
I'd heard it by now living there for decades. No problem to fix.

If there is measurable noise on the AC line and I don't hear it, then we
need to examine the audio electronics to see how well the stock
power supply handles filtering.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ssps1_e.html

Basic form of AC to DC power supply found in the majority of electronics,
if not a 60hz conventional design, it will be a switcher design {SMPS}.
We already mentioned that SMPS design is more critical, they WILL have
better filtering in the design vs. the 60hz power supply.

That picture you see on the link shows the output side of the power supply
with capacitors. This is commonly referred to as an unregulated power supply
and there more power supply ripple in this power supply than there is
AC noise being leaked from your house line as the big caps will filter out
some crud, if any exists at all.

A more advanced design will have some extra filtering on the AC input side
of the power supply, sorta like this.
http://www.equitech.com/images/enigma6.gif

Usually this is done to filter noise from entering your house AC mains from
the equipment like SMPS or it can also be used to filter out noise entering
the power supply.

What if you live in an apartment where the wiring is such that there is too much
leakage from neigbors? Maybe the excess noise is audible in which case you
filter more.

BTW, when you by those esoteric filters, many are just simple coil and cap networks. You can probably mod your audio gear with these for lower
current applications.
http://hamelectronics.com/k1deu/pages/ham/general/pages/rf_noise_computer.htm

Heres another pic of AC input filter on existing equipment.
http://www.benchclub.com/zboard/data/mrpardon_pic/k1gvt_k1_400xl_emi_filter_2h.jpg


Another filter.
http://users.atw.hu/chieftec/emi.jpg

For power amps, you'd need higher current ones if you wanted to mod it.

But it depends on if the equipment has filtering already and to what degree.

Lets look at the QSC PLX amplifier design since schematics are public.
http://www.qscaudio.com/support/technical_support/schems1.htm

Download PLX3402.

Page 1. Block diagram. EMI filter designed in.

Last page. 4 coils, 5 caps.

The EMI is to not only filter out HF generated by the SMPS but it can also work
both ways and filter out any crud coming in. Adding a power conditioner to this
amplifier would be just a waste of money really.

EMI filter, upper right hand corner of the amp.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/qsc/PLX3402-2.JPG

joetama
04-27-2006, 06:26 PM
Wow, does anyone else feel like 'momma' bird just threw up in their mouth......

BTW, the case where the Power Filter worked were on QSC PowerLight 2's and CX1202, oh wait you haven't work with those before.

The pads and filters are only a few db of filter, the filter in the conditioner is much stronger (and wait is there a reason for that) than the one built in. Hence the reason to do it; and just for the record you don't need to mod everything btw.

You can send me every article on earth telling me it doesn't work and you shouldn't do it. But I can't argue with what I CAN HEAR, and what other who listen to my system CAN HEAR. You know maybe I should start writing articles in magazines; the people would actually listen to me and think I know what I’m talking about.

thylantyr
04-27-2006, 07:25 PM
The pads and filters are only a few db of filter, the filter in the conditioner is much stronger (and wait is there a reason for that) than the one built in. Hence the reason to do it; and just for the record you don't need to mod everything btw.

Some of those cheap filters have pretty steep slopes, two coils, two caps is
24dB/octave of attenuation. Daisy chain as many as you want forever,
why stop at 24dB, make behemoth power conditioner with 1000db/octave
to really satisfy. // lol //

Power conditioner guts.
http://www.smarthome.com/images/4426guts.jpg

coils and caps.

My first post is where I stand on this topic. I never said they don't work,
I didn't say they will solve your problems, every install is different. You have
to find a problem first, then fix it. But it's your money to spend, if you don't
have an audible problem but desire to spend money to fix it, then go for it.

Beat_Dominator
05-03-2006, 01:56 PM
All I have to say, the 60hz hum I have in my system pwns j00!

joetama
05-03-2006, 04:05 PM
All I have to say, the 60hz hum I have in my system pwns j00!

Make sure that everything is grounded well, and that you have a good solid ground to your powerbox.


I agree, Power Conditioners don't fix everything, but they do help and make a difference in most cases.....

Beat_Dominator
05-03-2006, 04:09 PM
No, I was joking. I wanted to hook up my gear while I was sick so in a VERY temporary install I just plugged it all into a $2 surge protector and turned it on. I was greeted by that warm/fuzzy 60hz hummmmmMMMMMMMmmmmm :p:

joetama
05-03-2006, 04:12 PM
Since it's temp you could do the thing that I say to never ever ever do.... Lift the ground ;)