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View Full Version : Ed has the ural for sale for real now?



desertheat
04-18-2006, 07:33 PM
Also brax has a version..?? HUH..??? WOW....

http://www.brax.ru/


http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=128125&pagenumber=3

btnhfan
04-18-2006, 07:51 PM
What is this unit again?

desertheat
04-18-2006, 07:52 PM
god itself.

squeak9798
04-18-2006, 07:54 PM
What is this unit again?

Ural CDD

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 07:55 PM
is there stuff really the ****, ive heard people talk good about them but prices are outrageous, that HU belongs in my car

squeak9798
04-18-2006, 07:57 PM
is there stuff really the ****, ive heard people talk good about them but prices are outrageous,

Brax?

Yes, they are great amplifiers.

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 07:57 PM
where to find specs and price for this thing

desertheat
04-18-2006, 07:57 PM
Talk shiz about what..? brax or Ed..? haha Anyways It seems ed is selling them is what I took for it even though I thought the deal fell through....

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 07:59 PM
link me to it

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:02 PM
Im certainly looking into this. :)

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 08:03 PM
Brax?

Yes, they are great amplifiers.


Dude, where and who had a Brax amp u heard. who has the money to afford one. i wish i had the money i would buy all Brax products, tweeters are like 700.00, they got to be worth it

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:04 PM
Dude, where and who had a Brax amp u heard. who has the money to afford one. i wish i had the money i would buy all Brax products, tweeters are like 700.00, they got to be worth it


Do you know the actual prices of em? I personally can afford em, I dont see them all that unobtainable.

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 08:09 PM
Do you know the actual prices of em? I personally can afford em, I dont see them all that unobtainable.


I checked the prices at wooferetc.com i personally couldnt see myself paying 3000 dollars for an amp, tell me where there are more affordable, and i will surely try them out

Austin
04-18-2006, 08:10 PM
the Ural thing fell through I think(with eD). Don't quote me though

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:10 PM
I checked the prices at wooferetc.com i personally couldnt see myself paying 3000 dollars for an amp, tell me where there are more affordable, and i will surely try them out

I usually have on hand, or at least a phone call away. If your truly interested, send me a PM.

desertheat
04-18-2006, 08:11 PM
Post has nothing to do with amps, man you guys get off topic fast!

squeak9798
04-18-2006, 08:12 PM
I checked the prices at wooferetc.com i personally couldnt see myself paying 3000 dollars for an amp, tell me where there are more affordable, and i will surely try them out
They are expensive to the average working Joe. But not everybody is the average working Joe. Many more people than you realize can afford them. Heck, they're not even the most expensive car audio amplifier. Audison Thesis is $16,000, for example. HSS has some tube amps that run upwards of $5k. Tru likewise has some amps eclipsing the $3k price point, and many in the $2k+ range.

And in home audio, there's a pair of monoblocks that are $350,000 (not a typo).

To you they are expensive. To some people it's just a drop in the bucket.

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:12 PM
Post has nothing to do with amps, man you guys get off topic fast!


Doh !

Thats why I told him to PM me.. ;)

squeak9798
04-18-2006, 08:13 PM
Post has nothing to do with amps, man you guys get off topic fast!

Ooohhh, look, a shiny quarter.....

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 08:14 PM
But anyways back to the topic where can i find specs or post them. Im kinda new to the (ed) thing i dont know what that is, please dumb that down for me please

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:15 PM
Ooohhh, look, a shiny quarter.....


Thats mine ! Actually keep it, put it towards my squeakinator order. :)

squeak9798
04-18-2006, 08:17 PM
But anyways back to the topic where can i find specs or post them. Im kinda new to the (ed) thing i dont know what that is, please dumb that down for me please

http://www.aac.ru/

:up2somet:

937DYTBOI
04-18-2006, 08:18 PM
thanks

FoxPro5
04-18-2006, 08:49 PM
I've had oral and it's great and all but, not worth paying for ;)

6spdcoupe
04-18-2006, 08:56 PM
I've had oral and it's great and all but, not worth paying for ;)


Hmm guess it depends on whos doin it. :yumyum:

FoxPro5
04-18-2006, 08:59 PM
Hmm guess it depends on whos doin it. :yumyum:

That's why I leave one eye open...but I'd like to try the Ural too someday. Don't tell me ED is back at it again !! :crap:

desertheat
04-18-2006, 09:04 PM
haha looks like they actually are selling it for $650 now.... But it is not on there site... Anyone have all the exact specs in english on it..?

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:03 AM
Try: http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=119920

pwnt by pat
04-19-2006, 12:09 AM
They sent me an email saying that actually have them in-country and are willing to sell them for $500 to anyone who signed up for the group buy.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 01:31 AM
$1000 amp or a $5000 amp you won't hear a difference no matter what you read on here!;)

Eugenics
04-19-2006, 02:10 AM
$1000 amp or a $5000 amp you won't hear a difference no matter what you read on here!;)



i would beg to differ

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 02:40 AM
$1000 amp or a $5000 amp you won't hear a difference no matter what you read on here!;)
You're running awfully expensive amps given your view on the matter. I would agree that while driving with a high noise floor you won't notice much difference between a $1000 amp and $5000 amp of similar power ratings, but amps definitely have different sonic signatures.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 02:42 AM
If somone can prove that a difference can be "heard" then YOU must have sub sonic hearing! Is there a difference in pyle versus ZAPCO then yes.... When you get into the league of the big dawgs you WILL NOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE.....plain and simple...

What's nice about my position is that I DON'T have to prove there isn't a difference....someone has to PROVE there is!!;)

But of course I would tell everyone there is a difference too if I had to justify why I paid $3000 for one amp....

Your right I do run some elite amps....but they don't sound any better then any of the other brands that I paid far less for...... As you get older in life you start realize how the boogey man, easter bunny, santa clause and GOD doesn't exist....Realist!

spudracer326
04-19-2006, 02:57 AM
If somone can prove that a difference can be "heard" then YOU must have sub sonic hearing! Is there a difference in pyle versus ZAPCO then yes.... When you get into the league of the big dawgs you WILL NOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE.....plan and simple...

What's nice about my position is that I DON'T have to prove there isn't a difference....someone has to PROVE there is!!;)

But of course I would tell everyone there is a difference too if I had to justify why I paid $3000 grand for one amp....

Your right I do run some elite amps....but they don't sound any better then any of the other brands that I paid far less for...... As you get older in life you start realize how the boogey man, easter bunny, santa clause and GOD doesn't exist....Realist!


you get to a point with amps when a watt is a watt...

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 03:12 AM
"A watt is a watt" does not mean that all amplifiers sound the same. It means that, with a few grand of processing (in a studio, not a car), a decent amp can be processed to sound like a "high-end" amp. Richard Clark's test doesn't prove that an RF amp replacing a Brax amp with no processing will sound the same, rather that it can sound the same with the right processing. I do not see the value of this test in a car environment, where the processing needed would cost more than the high-end amps. It's another story in home audio where people pay $50+ grand for amps.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 03:17 AM
It's like I said, when I was a pup I believed a lot of B.S. too. Amps today when you get into a realm of the big dawgs like Zapco, Arc Audio, Brax, etc etc....you won't hear a difference!!! No matter how someone tries to justify their purchase! I seen systems with amps like BOSS that sound just (SOMETIMES BETTER) as good as a system with Zapco's........why? INSTALL!!

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 03:25 AM
I would definitely agree that while driving there is no way you're going to hear a difference between Arc, Zapco, Brax, or any other nice amp. Again, I don't see why this argument should really apply to car audio, as it has too many compromises in far more important areas (speakers, install) to worry about an insignificant change in amps. However, by your logic, if I were to switch my dad's Cary monoblocks for my Sony receiver (still of decent quality) and make sure the gains are okay, I would not be able to tell the difference between the different amps (or the Sony should sound better as it puts out more power).

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 03:28 AM
It's nothing to do with logic!! when it comes it car audio its fact!! Will there be a difference in let's say a Lanzar amp and a Brax....sure there is... The Lanzar is going to use components with a lessor quality which will induce noise and/or not filter out the noise correctly. The Brax will obviously use components that will do a better job at amplifying the music. But its like I said you get to a point where the human ear will not be able to tell a difference in the sound it hears.....You might be able to convince yourself you hear a difference but in reality there is no difference. I believe today that most amps will use quality components that will amplifiy the sound without any noticeable differences...... You can't let yourself be fooled by the fast talking dealer or the guy with the high post count!

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 03:40 AM
Another note: If you have a choice between getting let's say a Arc Audio for $800 versus a Brax for $3000, take the Arc Audio....your wallet will be happier and your sound will be just as good as the Brax....guaranteed!! You won't get some super duper sound from the Brax that will make everyone around be in a state of disbelief!! Put the extra money into something else that makes sense!!

But of course its always nice to say I'm running "Brax" from Germany which is like the best in world since its from Germany.....:crazy: :rolleyes:

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 03:43 AM
You're trying to argue over a quantitative point by raising somewhat qualitative (ie. "install" - obviously a car with Zapco amps and ****** frequency response will sound worse than a car with Boss amps and pleasing frequency response) points. Again, car audio is not an environment conducive to comparing the sonic signatures of amps (such as frequency response, and different impedances with tube amps (why some think tube amps have a different sound)). Again, I'm confident that I could hear a difference between Cary monoblocks with a BAT preamp and a Sony receiver with no processing difference.

Edit - I didn't read your other posts before I posted that as I was watching TV. Why would say, different capacitors in the Brax change the sound so drastically? Unless the Lanzar was using completely crappy internals, there is probably an almost immeasurable difference. For the record, the most expensive amp I own (well it's on its way) is a Genesis Dual Mono which I purchased for just over $300 used. In Atlanta, the "high-end" is JL amps sold by salesmen preaching how JL subs are clearly the best sounding subs on the market, so I don't hear anything from salesmen. There is obviously very little difference between high end brands, but in your earlier post you compared Boss amps to Zapco amps. I would say that comparison is more drastic than a Lanzar to a Brax. RC's test, IIRC, stated that completely crappy amps can't be compared to the "high-end" amps. Some more food for thought is that many ECA members swear by dual mono amps, yet their measurable benefits are not extreme.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 03:49 AM
We could go into variables all day long....but the fact remains.....no difference! Just buy a processor,DSP or headunit that can adjust the frequencies/slopes you need adjusted and your ears will thank you......NOT THE AMP!

You have to love good ole American marketing fluff!! Mine is better then yours because it cost more....please... How the young (which I was the same) know everything! We just have to learn as we go......experience!


I'm done ranting....LOL....

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 03:57 AM
I remember when I went from Eclipse to JL Audio.....no difference.....then JL Audio to Zapco Reference.....no difference......then Zapco Reference to the Zapco C2K's....and guess what NO difference.. Now if I went from lanzar to the C2K's would I hear a difference? maybe? I know I would convince myself I did if I didn't.

Lanzar and Boss are considered very low end...thus why I used them.

Don't be fooled by the members on ECA.....there are some good ones over there...werewolf and kev7909 and slick would be the only opinions I would trust!! No B.S. with those guys just plain facts.....

You can't take everyones word for truth (including mine) just because they have a high post count or cult following on a forum. The real guys won't sit and post on some forum and claim they are all knowing. Some of the best don't bother because of all B.S. that gets thrown around. I would say all and all that about 10-15 guys on the forums (all forums) I would take their word as the truth spoke from pure experience.

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 04:07 AM
I'm not trying to be an *******, but you haven't really backed up any of your points with anything other than anecdotal evidence. Again, I agree that at a certain point amps will make no difference with the isolation of all variables. However, the fact remains that, especially in car audio, there will be far too many variables. I also agree that processing, speakers, and proper installation will also have a greater effect than amps. With all of that said, the fact remains, that you still have not explained why a $200 solid state receiver will sound the same as a pair of $10,000 tube amps. Even on the same speakers with the same wires (not that the wires will make a difference), you will hear a difference between these amps provided there is no variation in the signal sent to both amps.

Edit- By members of ECA, i meant people like Audionutz who would be considered fairly well regarded. I also believe that werewolf is a fan of tube amps.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 04:22 AM
Would it sound better? can it be proven? SQ is subjective.... I'm sure in home audio $200 amp wouldn't sound as good as a $10000 amp......but why? My Denon $3000 receiver don't sound any better then my old Sherwood from Radio Shack....is it because of my speakers? Should I upgrade to better speakers to take advantage of my Denon? The receiver is the brains of any audio source, so the quality will make a difference when it comes to a receiver. Processing!

I backed my point up by stating my and many many many many many others experience with brands of amps... All I can go by is experience....I don't have any fancy testing equipment....my ears can only hear what they hear and what my brain processes.

The fact is NO one I've met on any forum has yet to prove to me they can hear a difference.....why? how do you measure? SQ is subjective.

By the way, I know a guy who bought a tube amp for his car and guess what...he's getting rid of it....why? He's going Brax....because he's been bitten by the bug.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 04:27 AM
I think these kind of debates can go on and on.... Just enjoy what you have and buy what you feel like buying...we only live once!!! life is short and enjoy it while you can... just don't get caught up in B.S.

Jaredl
04-19-2006, 04:32 AM
It's definitely true that once you reach the high-end where THD levels are low, SQ is purely subjective (or imaginary). However, a high class A bias or different amplifier design will create a different sound. Again, I would be very surprised if my Sony receiver had over 1% THD, but it definitely sounds different than my dad's tube amps.

It's definitely true that at a certain price point you're just paying for more prestige when you buy a higher-end amp like the Brax. There are very few car tube amps that actually use tubes in the output stage, and they generally cost more than Brax amps (Tru Copper tube, HSS Fidelity). Tubes are simply impractical for output use in a car because of their ridiculous current draw. Regardless, we've bickered enough. I think we agree on most points anyway. It was good arguing/talking.

bimma85
04-19-2006, 04:33 AM
and back on topic now.....

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 04:35 AM
It's definitely true that once you reach the high-end where THD levels are low, SQ is purely subjective (or imaginary). However, a high class A bias or different amplifier design will create a different sound. Again, I would be very surprised if my Sony receiver had over 1% THD, but it definitely sounds different than my dad's tube amps.

It's definitely true that at a certain price point you're just paying for more prestige when you buy a higher-end amp like the Brax. There are very few car tube amps that actually use tubes in the output stage, and they generally cost more than Brax amps (Tru Copper tube, HSS Fidelity). Tubes are simply impractical for output use in a car because of their ridiculous current draw. Regardless, we've bickered enough. I think we agree on most points anyway. It was good arguing/talking.



True that, friend!

desertheat
04-19-2006, 08:08 AM
Since you guys are way off topic, here is my 2 cents.... The test / challence good old sir richard put up was only comparing 2 class a/b amps with 0 processing and did not including tube amps ect. With 0 processing, thd under .1% and a frequency responce of 20-20K in a nutshell you cannot tell class a/b amps apart. I think you guys never read the test / challenge that you speak of or tube amps which are highly colored and have varied frequency responce and much higher levels of distortion would NEVER have been brought up, Class a amps would not be brought up and freakin processing would not be brought up!! *LOL* now back on freaking topic. 95% of this post has nothing to do with the title.

desertheat
04-19-2006, 08:29 AM
I like it :) Simple and rusky....

http://www.uralcdd.com/Ural_Concert_Eng.pdf

Decipha
04-19-2006, 08:36 AM
Ooohhh, look, a shiny quarter.....

my nugga

Decipha
04-19-2006, 08:40 AM
But of course its always nice to say I'm running "Brax" from Germany which is like the best in world since its from Germany.....:crazy: :rolleyes:


volfenhag... a german concept... :rotflol:

hoodkid
04-19-2006, 08:43 AM
volfenhag... a german concept... :rotflol:

volfenhag FTW:D

locotony
04-19-2006, 09:29 AM
Back on topic, I received one of the first ones once they got in country (had a little advance warning they were coming) the units ED has in stock right now that are left after the Group buy people were contacted will be sold for 500 but you need to call ED to confirm that they still have stock left (I beleive only 16 to 20 of them were available) After trhat they will be 650. As of right now happy as hell with the unit right now and it is fairly simple to use overall, SQ was better than with my Kenwood x979 even before I worked on the TA and EQ settings. Only thing I don't like at this point is the screen and hope that the Helix one becomes available as it looks more like the Pioneer OEL display as i can barely read the currunt one in sunlight no matter how high I have the brightness (drawback to the deck layout in an RSX with almost any HU) I'll be going active with it in a few weeks when I get the time to run some additional wires to the front of the car and and really interested in how it will sound with full independant control of every channel.

Installed Pics:
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/1382_68.jpg
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/1382_67.jpg
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/1382_66.jpg
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/icixnation/images/1382_69.jpg

pwnt by pat
04-19-2006, 09:42 AM
cool. Couldn't get a black unit?

desertheat
04-19-2006, 11:51 AM
Looks sweet. Ticks me off, just bought a cd7000 and really wanted to try this unit. But will wait for the brax to come out and if the brax is under $1500 with a better screen I will buy.

Lizardking
04-19-2006, 12:26 PM
The Helix looks far better. The URAL looks like something I would buy from Wal-Mart.............cheap looking big time! It has a lot of features for sure but when I looked at the specs I didn't see anything that looked impressive.

Does the URAL only have a one channel sub out?

I think once we see some reviews by well-respected folks in the industry that will help some of us get a good idea of sound quality. The cheapness of the unit just kills me. Maybe in person it don't look that cheap. The Helix version does look sweet.

6spdcoupe
04-19-2006, 06:12 PM
The Helix "conductor" is expected in late May, I should have some more info later this evening/tomorrow morn.

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 06:45 PM
Since you guys are way off topic, here is my 2 cents.... The test / challence good old sir richard put up was only comparing 2 class a/b amps with 0 processing and did not including tube amps ect. With 0 processing, thd under .1% and a frequency responce of 20-20K in a nutshell you cannot tell class a/b amps apart. I think you guys never read the test / challenge that you speak of or tube amps which are highly colored and have varied frequency responce and much higher levels of distortion would NEVER have been brought up, Class a amps would not be brought up and freakin processing would not be brought up!! *LOL*

Back off topic ( ;) ), you can compare any two amplifiers you like in the challenge. Class A vs Class D, class A/B vs Class A, Class A/B vs Class D, etc. And the THD does not have to be under .1% for the challenge, only under 2%. Also, he will allow you to compare a tube amp to a solid state amp, he simply adds are resistor to the output of the solid state amp to increase the output impedance of the solid state amp.

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 06:51 PM
It means that, with a few grand of processing (in a studio, not a car), a decent amp can be processed to sound like a "high-end" amp.

All RC adds to the signal chain in a solid state vs solid state amp comparison is an equalizer, if one is needed. Which anyone can pick up at their local dealer for a few hundred bucks. And all he adds to the solid state amp in a comparison against a tube amp is a resistor on the outputs of the SS. Not sure where this few grand in processing you claim comes into play.

And you can perform the experiment in your vehicle for the challenge if you wish.


Richard Clark's test doesn't prove that an RF amp replacing a Brax amp with no processing will sound the same, rather that it can sound the same with the right processing.

And "the right processing" would be an equalizer (if necessary), proper gain adjustment, and keeping the amplifier below audible distortion levels.

I don't know why everyone wants to make it sound like RC performs magic on the amps in his experiment. All he does is set the amplifier's gains identically, not allow you to exceed 2% THD, and equalize the frequency response where/when necessary. Stuff that anybody can do in their own systems. And really stuff that everybody should already be doing for the most part...but unfortunately most do not.


I do not see the value of this test in a car environment, where the processing needed would cost more than the high-end amps.

His experiment provides very valuable information. It proves what differences in amplifiers are and are not audible. I'm still not sure why you think the processing needs to cost thousands of dollars. We are talking about an amplifier and a DMM for the most part.

Which is more cost effective for the same net results....a $300 amp and a $200 EQ, or a $1000 amplifier?

If you don't see the value, then I don't think you fully understand the test and what it's set out to prove. Not that a watt is a watt, or that all amps sound the same (though the vast majority will have zero sonic differences when set properly). But that two amps that measure the same (within inaudible tolerances) will sound the same. And if the addition of something as simple as an EQ (if necessary) will allow that cheaper amp to "sound" just as wonderful as that expensive high end amp....how is that not valuable information?

And what I wanted to add before my PC fucked up on me ( :mad: ).....Basically what RC has said, and setup an experiment to prove, is that the "sonic characteristics" of any power amplifier can be summed up in the classical measurements of power, gain, frequency response, distortion and noise. His experiment (challenge) was setup to test the hypothesis that two amplifiers of equivalent actual power output, with equally set gains, distortion and noise below audible thresholds (distortion > 2% THD, which almost any amp should be able to do), and with inaudible differences in frequency response will sound identical. And so far, no one has disproven this. Which means that if you have two amplifiers, with equivalent power, equal gain settings, and inaudible differences in frequency response, distortion and noise....they will sound the same.

If an amplifier is not capable of producing inaudible distortion and noise...then that's not an amplifier worth owning anyways since any decently designed amplifier should be able to exceed this requirement easily. So that's an easy pass, and a lack of sonic difference. And since it's not hard to find two amplifiers of equivalent actual power output, and shouldn't be hard to set their gains identically......this leaves us with frequency response. Which, even if there is a small difference in the frequency response of two amplifiers...this is not hard to correct with the additional of an equalizer. But in most cases, even this is not necessary. But if it is necessary......I don't see the reason why it isn't valuable to know that, for example, a $300 amp plus a $200 EQ can "sound" just as great as that $1k+ amplifier at less than half the cost :)

desertheat
04-19-2006, 07:51 PM
ah old sir richard changed it since I read it last like back in 1999 haha Started out class a/b only

locotony
04-19-2006, 10:42 PM
The Helix looks far better. The URAL looks like something I would buy from Wal-Mart.............cheap looking big time! It has a lot of features for sure but when I looked at the specs I didn't see anything that looked impressive.

Does the URAL only have a one channel sub out?

I think once we see some reviews by well-respected folks in the industry that will help some of us get a good idea of sound quality. The cheapness of the unit just kills me. Maybe in person it don't look that cheap. The Helix version does look sweet.

The only difference between the helix and Ural (from what spirit has posted) is the faceplate and from what I have heard the Helix will have some features disabled as well. The screen still is the only thing that is bad IMHO other than that it really has better build quality than a lot of units on the market now.

JAZN
04-19-2006, 10:52 PM
how's the RTA?

desertheat
04-19-2006, 11:08 PM
Dang I wanna buy one just to play with it,

6spdcoupe
04-20-2006, 01:04 AM
The only difference between the helix and Ural (from what spirit has posted) is the faceplate and from what I have heard the Helix will have some features disabled as well. The screen still is the only thing that is bad IMHO other than that it really has better build quality than a lot of units on the market now.


But Ural..Russian, Helix..German...Whos making what then?

6spdcoupe
04-20-2006, 01:06 AM
how's the RTA?


Who?

pwnt by pat
04-20-2006, 01:07 AM
Who?

It has a built in RTA.

6spdcoupe
04-20-2006, 01:10 AM
It has a built in RTA.


Oh, lol I like mine better. :)

UndercoverPunk
04-20-2006, 01:34 AM
Who?



MIKE JONES!

Lizardking
04-20-2006, 01:34 AM
All RC adds to the signal chain in a solid state vs solid state amp comparison is an equalizer, if one is needed. Which anyone can pick up at their local dealer for a few hundred bucks. And all he adds to the solid state amp in a comparison against a tube amp is a resistor on the outputs of the SS. Not sure where this few grand in processing you claim comes into play.

And you can perform the experiment in your vehicle for the challenge if you wish.



And "the right processing" would be an equalizer (if necessary), proper gain adjustment, and keeping the amplifier below audible distortion levels.

I don't know why everyone wants to make it sound like RC performs magic on the amps in his experiment. All he does is set the amplifier's gains identically, not allow you to exceed 2% THD, and equalize the frequency response where/when necessary. Stuff that anybody can do in their own systems. And really stuff that everybody should already be doing for the most part...but unfortunately most do not.



His experiment provides very valuable information. It proves what differences in amplifiers are and are not audible. I'm still not sure why you think the processing needs to cost thousands of dollars. We are talking about an amplifier and a DMM for the most part.

Which is more cost effective for the same net results....a $300 amp and a $200 EQ, or a $1000 amplifier?

If you don't see the value, then I don't think you fully understand the test and what it's set out to prove. Not that a watt is a watt, or that all amps sound the same (though the vast majority will have zero sonic differences when set properly). But that two amps that measure the same (within inaudible tolerances) will sound the same. And if the addition of something as simple as an EQ (if necessary) will allow that cheaper amp to "sound" just as wonderful as that expensive high end amp....how is that not valuable information?

And what I wanted to add before my PC fucked up on me ( :mad: ).....Basically what RC has said, and setup an experiment to prove, is that the "sonic characteristics" of any power amplifier can be summed up in the classical measurements of power, gain, frequency response, distortion and noise. His experiment (challenge) was setup to test the hypothesis that two amplifiers of equivalent actual power output, with equally set gains, distortion and noise below audible thresholds (distortion > 2% THD, which almost any amp should be able to do), and with inaudible differences in frequency response will sound identical. And so far, no one has disproven this. Which means that if you have two amplifiers, with equivalent power, equal gain settings, and inaudible differences in frequency response, distortion and noise....they will sound the same.

If an amplifier is not capable of producing inaudible distortion and noise...then that's not an amplifier worth owning anyways since any decently designed amplifier should be able to exceed this requirement easily. So that's an easy pass, and a lack of sonic difference. And since it's not hard to find two amplifiers of equivalent actual power output, and shouldn't be hard to set their gains identically......this leaves us with frequency response. Which, even if there is a small difference in the frequency response of two amplifiers...this is not hard to correct with the additional of an equalizer. But in most cases, even this is not necessary. But if it is necessary......I don't see the reason why it isn't valuable to know that, for example, a $300 amp plus a $200 EQ can "sound" just as great as that $1k+ amplifier at less than half the cost :)


Decent post!! I don't have magic ears.....I haven't met anyone who has....LOL:)

6spdcoupe
04-20-2006, 01:37 AM
MIKE JONES!


who dat yO?

UndercoverPunk
04-20-2006, 01:38 AM
who dat yO?


**** if I know.

locotony
04-20-2006, 10:30 PM
But Ural..Russian, Helix..German...Whos making what then?

Ural is making the unit for helix.

On the RTA it is not a real RTA you can choos any freq and look at what the db level of it is but not i relation to others not a rta as we know it by any means.

6spdcoupe
04-21-2006, 12:42 AM
Ural is making the unit for helix.


Actually I believe you have that a bit backwards sir. It was developed in coop with Russia, but Helix owns the rights to, Russia only offers the similiar Ural based on the Helix.

locotony
04-21-2006, 08:27 AM
Actually I believe you have that a bit backwards sir. It was developed in coop with Russia, but Helix owns the rights to, Russia only offers the similiar Ural based on the Helix.

Wrong, The Ural has been in production since 2003 and yes there is coop between ACC and Helix on the competition conductor but the Ural is the base for the Helix Unit. The helix is going to be released at the auto and sound show this year (german version of SEMA) and ACC still owns the rights to the unit and will be producing it for them with the exception of the faceplate.

6spdcoupe
04-21-2006, 11:06 AM
Actually a quote from Gudrun himself:

"Last week at the Sinsheim show we have shown for the first time the Helix Competition conductor head unit. It is developed in a co-operation with our Russian distributor and his engineers. We have the exclusive rights of the technology only for Germany and our Russian partner can sell it under his Ural brand with a different design to other countries. The design of the Helix Conductor is made by us and they cannot use our design for their Ural brand."

slick rick
04-21-2006, 11:17 AM
owned...

El Ropo
04-21-2006, 01:20 PM
Actually a quote from Gudrun himself:

"Last week at the Sinsheim show we have shown for the first time the Helix Competition conductor head unit. It is developed in a co-operation with our Russian distributor and his engineers. We have the exclusive rights of the technology only for Germany and our Russian partner can sell it under his Ural brand with a different design to other countries. The design of the Helix Conductor faceplate is made by us and they cannot use our design for their Ural brand."


There, fixed :)

locotony
04-21-2006, 03:09 PM
Actually a quote from Gudrun himself:

"Last week at the Sinsheim show we have shown for the first time the Helix Competition conductor head unit. It is developed in a co-operation with our Russian distributor and his engineers. We have the exclusive rights of the technology only for Germany and our Russian partner can sell it under his Ural brand with a different design to other countries. The design of the Helix Conductor is made by us and they cannot use our design for their Ural brand."


What don't you understand, the Ural has been out for three years Helix CC is just coming to market, main difference between the two is the faceplate and firmware, Is it so hard to believe the Russians could develope something this good. And please post your source as well, Mine happens to be one of the original russian beta testers of the unit and is in contact with the developers regularly.

6spdcoupe
04-21-2006, 03:19 PM
What don't you understand, the Ural has been out for three years Helix CC is just coming to market, main difference between the two is the faceplate and firmware, Is it so hard to believe the Russians could develope something this good. And please post your source as well, Mine happens to be one of the original russian beta testers of the unit and is in contact with the developers regularly.

My source is from Brax themselves. The email sent had the quote in it. Feel free to contact them. Im also waiting for an email back from them for more info. A quote from Gudrun was enough for me, but apparently not for others.

desertheat
04-21-2006, 03:26 PM
what is the expected price?

locotony
04-21-2006, 03:56 PM
From brax.ru translated


Company Audiotec FISCHER (Germany) is the producer of the automobile acoustic components of class Hi- fie, to the corresponding highest standards of technology and quality. Acoustic systems and amplifiers until recently were their production.
Now in the rule head device will be present.

Head device is based on the apparatus platform Ural Concert CDD. the original chart technology solutions, software and interface - are developed Aac-nirokr

Into the tasks of command DW (DesignWorks) entered the development of design and construction of the front panel of the head device of mul'timediynoy auto-audiosystem, device will be sold on the markets for western Europe under trade mark HELIX

In the construction of production adapt the stainless steel, aluminum, their glass-, but not plastic imitations. Firm "simple, logical and chopped" style, interesects the remaining production of firm, emphasizes eksklyuzivnost' and belonging of this apparatus with class Hi- fie

Vse control is accomplished by enkoderom and one additional button with the use of a mul'timediynogo menu with the animation.
Interface works according to the principle of step-by-step warming up sleva-napravo and vverkh-vniz

Helix Competition Conductor Possesses the unique possibility of programming all functions by user. Apparatus is built on the apparatus platform with the lifelong renovation of software through the site of producer.

squeak9798
04-21-2006, 04:37 PM
I was going to say.....from the original quote 6spdcoupe posted, it didn't sound like Brax/Helix designed the entire unit....more like they took the unit that was designed by Ural, then changed a few things to make it "their own". And, as a result, other companies (even Ural) can not use the official "Brax/Helix" version/design.

That was simply my interpretation of the quote you posted 6spd.

GaryN
04-21-2006, 05:24 PM
I was going to say.....from the original quote 6spdcoupe posted, it didn't sound like Brax/Helix designed the entire unit....more like they took the unit that was designed by Ural, then changed a few things to make it "their own". And, as a result, other companies (even Ural) can not use the official "Brax/Helix" version/design.

That was simply my interpretation of the quote you posted 6spd.

Be carefull with interpretation...

You are wrong.

No one piece of that HU (and any other HU in the world) where Helix do anything. Moreover, Helix don't know what is CDD, Ural ConceRt and, of cource, what is "Conductor" (but, in fact, he plans to ask russians).
"Conductor" is not exist... and will not. This is a pure speculation.

"as a result, other companies (even Ural) can not use the official "Brax/Helix" version/design"
result of what?! Helix spend any time or money in this project? Naive! For what? To stick label is quite enough...
Ask Helix about "his" faceplate and (wow!) "his" firmware... almost Helix's space satellite.... Very impressive...
But who? Where? When? Why?
Funny story :)

The answer (URAL) is not so far:

1. Get URAL ConceRt CDD (because you never can't get Helix CC)
2. Enter "Setup" -> "About" menu (you'll see "Info" screen)
3. long press knob: you'll see "Modules"
4. next long press: you'll see "Statistics"
5. and last long press: you'll see "About"
6. don't touch knob... and URAL tell you WHO is WHO...

What Helix?! Kindergarten......See Helix's product line and draw a conclusion. They has no digital guys at all and has no plans to develope HU in 21 century. Only make money.... "To each his own"

"they took the unit that was designed by Ural, then changed a few things to make it "their own""
What is the name of that "took"?

"Helix Competition Conductor Possesses the unique possibility of programming all functions by user. Apparatus is built on the apparatus platform with the lifelong renovation of software through the site of producer."
Cool! And what about the same URAL's unique possibility?

So much garbage... and hoaxes... :(

squeak9798
04-21-2006, 06:10 PM
Be carefull with interpretation...

You are wrong.

No one piece of that HU (and any other HU in the world) where Helix do anything. Moreover, Helix don't know what is CDD, Ural ConceRt and, of cource, what is "Conductor" (but, in fact, he plans to ask russians).
"Conductor" is not exist... and will not. This is a pure speculation.

"as a result, other companies (even Ural) can not use the official "Brax/Helix" version/design"
result of what?! Helix spend any time or money in this project? Naive! For what? To stick label is quite enough...
Ask Helix about "his" faceplate and (wow!) "his" firmware... almost Helix's space satellite.... Very impressive...
But who? Where? When? Why?
Funny story :)

The answer (URAL) is not so far:

1. Get URAL ConceRt CDD (because you never can't get Helix CC)
2. Enter "Setup" -> "About" menu (you'll see "Info" screen)
3. long press knob: you'll see "Modules"
4. next long press: you'll see "Statistics"
5. and last long press: you'll see "About"
6. don't touch knob... and URAL tell you WHO is WHO...

What Helix?! Kindergarten......See Helix's product line and draw a conclusion. They has no digital guys at all and has no plans to develope HU in 21 century. Only make money.... "To each his own"

"they took the unit that was designed by Ural, then changed a few things to make it "their own""
What is the name of that "took"?

"Helix Competition Conductor Possesses the unique possibility of programming all functions by user. Apparatus is built on the apparatus platform with the lifelong renovation of software through the site of producer."
Cool! And what about the same URAL's unique possibility?

So much garbage... and hoaxes... :(


I would respond to that....but I simply have no idea what the **** you are saying. Your location is Russia, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume either you don't speak English fluently, or you typed up that response and used a free translation service.......but that post is for the most part completely unintelligible.


But, like I said...I never claimed to know exact specifications of the transactions between Helix and Ural. Only stating what I took from the quote 6spdcoupe posted. So, if you wish to come in here and post factual information, please do it in a manor that would allow us to actually understand what you are typing.

GaryN
04-21-2006, 06:40 PM
<skip>
I simply have no idea what the **** you are saying.
<skip>
or you typed up that response and used a free translation service...
<skip>
....but that post is for the most part completely unintelligible.


do not take "**** I'm saying" so much to heart...
squeak9798, would you be my free translation service :)
Is there anybody here who understand my typing? If no, then I'll stop :crying:

6spdcoupe
04-21-2006, 06:59 PM
I have no clue wth you just typed...

helotaxi
04-21-2006, 07:23 PM
do not take "**** I'm saying" so much to heart...
squeak9798, would you be my free translation service :)
Is there anybody here who understand my typing? If no, then I'll stop :crying:
I would say send it to my wife for translation, but she doesn't have the time.

I think I understood your original post to be something along the lines of the the Helix "design" will not see the market. If it ever does, they didn't do the work themselves, they paid someone else to "modify" the Ural design that they "stole." I haven't spoken with my mother or father-in-law in a long time so my Russian broken English is not where it used to be.

locotony
04-21-2006, 11:48 PM
What gary is saying (and yes he is a ural user) is that helix did not design the unit, ural/acc will be the company building the unit if it ever does come to market and that the only Helix portion is the faceplate, which, BTW, is designed by another russian firm, design works. If it ever does come out the Helix will be available in one country, germany

Back on normal topic of the Ural, after a week of use the unit is amazing me more and more everyday with what it is capable of and am having more and more fun diving further into what it is capable of and experimenting (hey its been 5 years since I had a 30 band EQ in the car or this much tweakability at my fingertips)

Eugenics
04-22-2006, 08:13 PM
im trying to figure out if i should get one of these over a h701 combo and new alpine HU

El Ropo
04-22-2006, 08:51 PM
im trying to figure out if i should get one of these over a h701 combo and new alpine HU

I have no personal experience with the Alpine combo, but have personally listened to the ural HU in Locotony's RSX several times over the last week. I've never heard a HU with more flexibility and amazingly flat/warm SQ. My Excelon x-889 pales in comparison. Its a short but sweet review, I can give a more accurate report on the imaging/staging after he works out all the kinks we all have in a car.

Jaredl
04-22-2006, 09:05 PM
I was out of town and don't want to argue redundant and basically pointless and trite amp/eq topics in a thread about head units anymore, and I am actually curious about the HU now that it is (amazingly enough) in the US.

On topic:
For the owners of the deck, how does the sub preout work? I think I remember it had limited x-over and EQ abilities? I'm just curious how it works because people had been talking about it as a deal breaker for the deck during the pre-order.

pwnt by pat
04-22-2006, 09:30 PM
I was going to get one but when all hopes were lost, I turned to the 701.

If you want more eq options, get the 701.

Jaredl
04-22-2006, 10:37 PM
I have a P9 so I'm not planning on getting one of these, I was just wondering what the deal was on the sub channel. These units are definitely interesting as a single piece serving as a source unit, EQ, and crossover.

pwnt by pat
04-22-2006, 11:41 PM
sub channel = sum of channels 1 and 2

cross ch 1+2 @ 60hz hpf, and sub is passed at 60hz hpf
time alignment and eqing also affect sub, which may or may not cause problems

Jaredl
04-23-2006, 03:55 AM
Oh, thanks. I assume you mean the sub is LPFed where the mids are HPFed (seems like you had a typo)? That does take away a bit of flexibility.

pwnt by pat
04-23-2006, 10:58 AM
IIRC, the sub has a lpf of 80 which you CAN NOT CHANGE. If you hp ch 1+2, you also hp the sub.

locotony
04-23-2006, 12:42 PM
IIRC, the sub has a lpf of 80 which you CAN NOT CHANGE. If you hp ch 1+2, you also hp the sub.

You want to use 1-2 as either a bandpass or HP above 30 hz the sub channel is a set lp at either 80 hz at 24 db or 60 hz at 12 db (dependant on the slope setting you use) and is affected by the eq but no TA for it (may be added in future firmware). I am only going to be running 3-way active so the setup will be 1-2 on the mids, 3-4 on the tweets and 5-6 on the sub, right now I am just running 1-2 for the front stage and 5-6 on the subs as I need to add additional wiring to run active. As for the rest of the xover functions for channels 1-6 they are infinitly variable as either HP, LP, or BP with a frequency range from 10 hz to 20Khz.

GeeTEye
10-25-2006, 05:19 PM
Anyone know any more info on the Brax head units from the beginning of this post?