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Decado
04-08-2006, 01:11 AM
Hey, I haven't really been around car audio or anything for the past 9 months, and now i'm helpin a buddy find a head unit for his car. What are some good SQ head units? I know the Alpine 9855 was pretty good, but i dunno if that's the new model anymore. Anyone have some suggestions on what HU's are good for SQ?

Prowler573
04-08-2006, 03:18 AM
The new Premier 880PRS comes highly recommended...

Kenwood's eXcelon 25th Anniversary XXV-01D is superb (if you can find one) and those that have he KDC-X889 seem to love 'em...

Alpine's 9835 and 9855 have a bit of a clut following...

Several different Eclipse models (the exact numbers escape me at the moment) gather top remarks from those that have experience with them..

There's more than a few out there, guy....

:search:

bri487
04-08-2006, 03:36 AM
budget? you can go for the eclipse cda7000.

JLCivic
04-08-2006, 02:23 PM
From top to bottom, I think Eclipse make the best sounding decks. If you can find one though, an RF 8240 or 8250 are excellent sounding(best I have owned).

Prowler573
04-08-2006, 02:28 PM
From top to bottom, I think Eclipse make the best sounding decks. If you can find one though, an RF 8240 or 8250 are excellent sounding(best I have owned).

The majority of people that have these "Denford" units (sold as Rockford Fosgate, built by Denon) are generally unwilling to part with them or if they are it'll be a pricey aquisition more often than not.

JLCivic
04-08-2006, 02:30 PM
The majority of people that have these "Denford" units (sold as Rockford Fosgate, built by Denon) are generally unwilling to part with them or if they are it'll be a pricey aquisition more often than not.


You sometimes find them used on the forums or ebay(or rockford selling refurbs).

springy101
04-08-2006, 02:43 PM
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3268&CFID=454898&CFTOKEN=43db0af2e155e303-7A98480E-1422-7C6E-50A2734EB70D1495

is this the "Denford" you are talking about? i read the specs and that thing is not worth 230 to me. 2 2 volt preouts, no equalizer, 13w rms, ghey.

Prowler573
04-08-2006, 02:45 PM
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3268&CFID=454898&CFTOKEN=43db0af2e155e303-7A98480E-1422-7C6E-50A2734EB70D1495

is this the "Denford" you are talking about?

See the above post(s) where they are talked about - we were talking about the RF8240 and RF8250.

The one you've linked to isn't nearly the same. :)

bri487
04-08-2006, 03:40 PM
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3268&CFID=454898&CFTOKEN=43db0af2e155e303-7A98480E-1422-7C6E-50A2734EB70D1495

is this the "Denford" you are talking about? i read the specs and that thing is not worth 230 to me. 2 2 volt preouts, no equalizer, 13w rms, ghey.

supposedly denon had the cleanest sounding deck out there, but not enough output voltage. that is the basis for the zapco deck. check it out on the zapco forum.

squeak9798
04-08-2006, 05:49 PM
supposedly denon had the cleanest sounding deck out there, but not enough output voltage.

Voltage is pretty insignificant, to say the least.

Personal experience; I switched from a Denford 8240 to an Eclipse 8053 (8V outputs)...and I can't say that I really liked the Eclipse more.


The Denon decks have more than adequate preout voltage.


And no, springy, that deck on the woofersetc webpage that you linked is definitely not the Denford.

RFX-8250Ti (http://cgi.ebay.com/ROCKFORD-FOSGATE-RFX-8250-Platinum-2000-DENON-A1-Z1_W0QQitemZ9702211245QQcategoryZ3293QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

RFX-8240 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-made-Rockford-Fosgate-Platinum-Source-Unit-CD_W0QQitemZ9701605821QQcategoryZ3293QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Prowler573
04-08-2006, 06:28 PM
supposedly denon had the cleanest sounding deck out there, but not enough output voltage. that is the basis for the zapco deck. check it out on the zapco forum.

The 8240 had 2v preouts and the 8250Ti had 5v preouts.

Unless you have an incredibly high noise floor in your source material that should be more than enough for the average consumer, I would think...

Decado
04-09-2006, 02:26 AM
So this pioneer premier deh-880prs, does this have the same stupid ground loop issues that all the other ones used to have or what? This one is lookin like a pretty good choice for the price. And this does have good SQ to it right? The only thing that bothers me is that it's only a 2 way crossover instead of a 3 way like the alpine 9855, but then again i've heard bad things about the 9855's so I dunno. 9835 i think would be a good choice the only problem is finding one of the bastards. Well, thanks for the help so far guys, any more input would be much appreciated.

aadadams
04-09-2006, 03:27 AM
Could you expand on the ground loop issue? The 880 has a 3-way mode that seperates L/R tuning for an effective 6-way (How about them apples?:)), and the SQ is great. I can see if I have a ground loop problem if you tell me what it is.

Fosgate Forever
04-09-2006, 04:44 AM
The majority of people that have these "Denford" units (sold as Rockford Fosgate, built by Denon) are generally unwilling to part with them or if they are it'll be a pricey aquisition more often than not. my friends shop still has many of them bnib

squeak9798
04-09-2006, 11:03 AM
my friends shop still has many of them bnib

Price? He willing to ship?

pwnt by pat
04-09-2006, 12:04 PM
I wish I would have gotten that rf8250... seller never shipped and I got my money back :crying:

bri487
04-10-2006, 01:43 AM
Voltage is pretty insignificant, to say the least.

Personal experience; I switched from a Denford 8240 to an Eclipse 8053 (8V outputs)...and I can't say that I really liked the Eclipse more.


The Denon decks have more than adequate preout voltage.


And no, springy, that deck on the woofersetc webpage that you linked is definitely not the Denford.

RFX-8250Ti (http://cgi.ebay.com/ROCKFORD-FOSGATE-RFX-8250-Platinum-2000-DENON-A1-Z1_W0QQitemZ9702211245QQcategoryZ3293QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

RFX-8240 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-made-Rockford-Fosgate-Platinum-Source-Unit-CD_W0QQitemZ9701605821QQcategoryZ3293QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

when you start to run multiple amps and what not, it becomes important. if output voltage is insignficant, then why is 8v and what not highly spoken of and why are people *****ing about companies going to 2v instedd of 4v?

squeak9798
04-10-2006, 01:48 AM
when you start to run multiple amps and what not, it becomes important.

Umm...nope, not really.


if output voltage is insignficant, then why is 8v and what not highly spoken of and why are people *****ing about companies going to 2v instedd of 4v?

High preout voltage is "nice", because it allows you to lower the gain setting, theoretically increasing the SNR. But, given you have a quality amplifier that has no noise with a higher gain setting (like most any amplifier on the market today), you gain absolutely nothing by using a higher voltage preamp output.

Maybe people are bitching because they are misinformed or don't understand the impact of preout voltage?

But, again, the Denfords and other Denon headunits have more than adequate preout voltage.

bri487
04-10-2006, 01:56 AM
Umm...nope, not really.



High preout voltage is "nice", because it allows you to lower the gain setting, theoretically increasing the SNR. But, given you have a quality amplifier that has no noise with a higher gain setting (like most any amplifier on the market today), you gain absolutely nothing by using a higher voltage preamp output.

Maybe people are *****ing because they are misinformed or don't understand the impact of preout voltage?

But, again, the Denfords and other Denon headunits have more than adequate preout voltage.

keeping noise out of the signal is the result of keeping the gains down which you are allowed to do by using a stronger output signal. the denons were clean sounding decks, but lacked the output voltage to keep all the noise out. so in reality, the higher voltage is essential to SQ.

and when you use multiple amps off the same pre out, you lose signal because its split so many times. and when you use a line driver or something of the sort, it is another link in the chain letting noise enter the signal path.

squeak9798
04-10-2006, 02:02 AM
keeping noise out of the signal is the result of keeping the gains down which you are allowed to do by using a stronger output signal. the denons were clean sounding decks, but lacked the output voltage to keep all the noise out. so in reality, the higher voltage is essential to SQ.

If you had noise in your system with a lower preout voltage, then the problem was the amplifer and not the signal strength. Any quality amplifier should have near zero audible noise regardless of gain setting.

Preout voltage is anything but essential to sound quality. Anyone who says such a thing is quite simply misinformed and/or ignorant. 2V or higher (which the Denons have) is more than adequate. Anything more is a vanity.


and when you use multiple amps off the same pre out, you lose signal because its split so many times.

You would have to split it quite a few times before the signal strength decreased by a noticeable amount. Split it once, and you may lose hundredths of a volt. Split that one signal twice, and you may lose .1V. Is .1V going to make a noticeable difference anywhere in the system?

I don't know too many people, honestly, who split a single RCA more than once or twice. Most people splitting it at all use different avenues such as amplifier pass through outputs, electronic crossovers, etc. If you have to split a single preamp output more than twice (hell, more than once), I think it's time to rethink your system layout.

bri487
04-10-2006, 02:04 AM
Preout voltage is anything but essential to sound quality. Anyone who says such a thing is quite simply misinformed and/or ignorant. 2V or higher (which the Denons have) is more than adequate. Anything more is a vanity.


you're right, those darn audio companies are sure ignorant.:crazy:

squeak9798
04-10-2006, 02:05 AM
you're right, those darn audio companies are sure ignorant.:crazy:

No, their marketing.



I can see someone reads all of the nice little marketing info like a good little consumer ;)

bri487
04-10-2006, 02:08 AM
No, their marketing.



I can see someone reads all of the nice little marketing info like a good little consumer ;)

actually i am not too sure as to what is out there at the moment. i was discussing it a while ago with a big local dealer that i know outside of being a customer. and i was discussing the whole denon pre-out voltage thing with a guy that does zapcos testing.

OldOneEye
04-10-2006, 02:50 AM
Big difference between the two if you ask me. If we are talking about competition decks, you want the RFX 8250 over the 8240. Balanced output, different DAC, more preout voltage. I love mine, glad I convinced my boss to let us sell these on cardomain, we sold a couple hundred. I wish I had bought a bunch of them, oh well.

Juan



The 8240 had 2v preouts and the 8250Ti had 5v preouts.

Unless you have an incredibly high noise floor in your source material that should be more than enough for the average consumer, I would think...

foomasta69
04-10-2006, 11:03 PM
what about if you were spliceing into a stock amp/sub setup, such as in my 98 ford explorer where i have to splice a RCA cable and hook that up, would higher voltage preouts effect that??
heres a link of wha i would have to do...

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154055

drewnashty
04-14-2006, 03:25 PM
Higher pre-out voltage also helps put less stress on your amps, because they recieve a stronger voltage that they don't have to work as hard to put out the same amount of power. And you can lower the gain level which also puts less stress on them, all in all it also helps them run cooler for longer full blast durations :naughty: .

squeak9798
04-14-2006, 05:53 PM
Higher pre-out voltage also helps put less stress on your amps, because they recieve a stronger voltage that they don't have to work as hard to put out the same amount of power. And you can lower the gain level which also puts less stress on them, all in all it also helps them run cooler for longer full blast durations :naughty: .

That's not really true at all either.

desertheat
04-14-2006, 07:45 PM
Higher pre-out voltage also helps put less stress on your amps, because they recieve a stronger voltage that they don't have to work as hard to put out the same amount of power. And you can lower the gain level which also puts less stress on them, all in all it also helps them run cooler for longer full blast durations :naughty: .


uh..... 1/3 of my brain just failed to work after reading that... Now I hate you! I only have 10/6th left!

SuperTrooper
04-17-2006, 10:46 PM
Man this is some good stuff. Threads like this is where us "non-professionals of car audio" learn the most. But one thing I learned a while back is squeak9798 knows his s*@t.

desertheat
04-17-2006, 11:12 PM
Yeah squeek knows a few things :)

I can add in the cd7000 from eclipse... spec wise she is a beauty for sq.... but I will not get to try her out until end of the week / early next week!

Oak244
04-17-2006, 11:22 PM
The Eclipse 8053 is an older model but is considered one of the best sounding decks ever! I love the sound, and all the features it has as well, with the EQ, DSP, Crossovers, Time Alignment, ect. Its a great sounding deck, with great tweaking features!

FoxPro5
04-17-2006, 11:39 PM
The Eclipse 8053 is an older model but is considered one of the best sounding decks ever! I love the sound, and all the features it has as well, with the EQ, DSP, Crossovers, Time Alignment, ect. Its a great sounding deck, with great tweaking features!

You are correct. Preout voltage matters and that's why it exists. It's not ALL marketing, but I do agree with Squak to a point. What is important is the quality of the preamp chips in the HU. Eclipse 8v put out 8v (or more ;)) at full volume. Denon 2v put out 2v at full volume. So if you don't run them at max unclipped volume many would say that it doesn't matter. I disagree because would you rather have 4v or 1v at half volume?? If two decks have equal sq and features, I'll take the higher preout voltage deck. Or wait, it doesn't matter that's right :rolleyes:

pwnt by pat
04-17-2006, 11:46 PM
As long as you don't have noise in either system, what difference would it make to have more voltage? (besides where your gain is set)

edit for clarity, this was a sarcastic remark to fox.

Oak244
04-17-2006, 11:50 PM
I believe what set the 8053 apart from other Eclipse decks is it has 16Volt outputs.

project f-150
04-17-2006, 11:57 PM
It honestly wouldnt matter about what voltage there is is in a sytem with no noise as long as the higher gain setting on the amp doesnt induce noice
(which i dont know of one that does). but on a system that has a slight noise issue thehigher voltage would help becaue you reduce yout gain on the amp (which in turn lowers noise amplification).

But one more thing higher pre-out voltage does not and i repeat DOES NOT make your amp not have to work as hard to reach the ame voltage!! id10t

Oak244
04-18-2006, 12:07 AM
Higher Voltages would allow you to run your gains at higher setting without clipping. If one way to set your gains is to match the voltage comming into the amp, with the voltage comming out, then isn't it safe to say a amp with 2 volts will allow for a lower gain increase before clipping then would that of the same amp with 8 volts? With this being said, the amp with a higher voltage in, should be able to get more out of the amp if you set your gains properly. I am not an expert here by any means, but a logical person lol!

FoxPro5
04-18-2006, 12:13 AM
Higher Voltages would allow you to run your gains at higher setting without clipping. If one way to set your gains is to match the voltage comming into the amp, with the voltage comming out, then isn't it safe to say a amp with 2 volts will allow for a lower gain increase before clipping then would that of the same with 8 volts? With this being said, the amp with a higher voltage in, should be able to get more out of the amp if you set your gains properly. I am not an expert here by any means, but a logical person lol!

Yes and that's why it's called a sensitivity adjustment.

I also find it interesting how some of the higher end amps on the market have up to 16v sensitivity (ex. MBQ Q series) but yet some only have 2.5v (Arc SE series).

And one more for Eclipse....55ohm output impedence....errrr wait it's just marketing again :rolleyes: What's Alpine's again??? 55,000??? You can take the signal leads from and Alpine deck and ground them to bare steel and that thing will just keep pumping craptastic music all day (my opinion - live with it!!) If you were to do that with an Eclipse (8053 especially) kiss that baby bye bye.
If anyone has any numbers of the market share on decks, please post it up.....I bet Eclipse has less than 5%

DBfan187
04-18-2006, 12:28 AM
the thing with the Eclipse decks isn't the high voltage, it's the low impedance;) it's key!(also, you'll only start getting the the higher voltages within the last few clicks of the volume knob)


You'll only get these voltages @ full volume with 0dB tones - which music isn't;)

project f-150
04-18-2006, 11:15 AM
Higher Voltages would allow you to run your gains at higher setting without clipping. If one way to set your gains is to match the voltage comming into the amp, with the voltage comming out, then isn't it safe to say a amp with 2 volts will allow for a lower gain increase before clipping then would that of the same amp with 8 volts? With this being said, the amp with a higher voltage in, should be able to get more out of the amp if you set your gains properly. I am not an expert here by any means, but a logical person lol!


If you have a higher voltage output on your amp it does not allow you to set the gains HIGHER without clipping. Your amp is only going to produce X amount of power max. Now if you have a higher voltage amp you set the gain lower so the amp knows the signal is stronger and will not jump to its max power all the time and overpower the rest of your music. And if you have a lower voltage headunit you set the gain higher so that the amp will still be able to reach that SAME power output.

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:12 AM
Higher Voltages would allow you to run your gains at higher setting without clipping.

Not sure what you mean. With either a low voltage or high voltage deck you'll be able to obtain full power without clipping. Gain setting doesn't really matter much here, as long as it's set appropriately for the input voltage.


If one way to set your gains is to match the voltage comming into the amp, with the voltage comming out, then isn't it safe to say a amp with 2 volts will allow for a lower gain increase before clipping then would that of the same amp with 8 volts?

The gains would be set differently, yes. But that's rather irrelevant as long as the amplifier has no noise with the lower input voltage. If there's no noise, you won't notice any difference in sound or power output.


With this being said, the amp with a higher voltage in, should be able to get more out of the amp if you set your gains properly.

You can not get any more out of an amplifier than it is capable of cleanly producing, regardless of input voltage. If the amplifier can only produce 500w RMS before clipping..then that's it. No more. And most amplifiers are designed to produce full power output with as little as .2V input (yes, two tenths of a volt). Which means if your HU is capable of .2V of output, then you will be able to obtain full power output from the amplifier.

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:13 AM
You are correct. Preout voltage matters and that's why it exists.

You're right. It matters for proper gain setting.


Or wait, it doesn't matter that's right :rolleyes:

Not a whole lot, no.

project f-150
04-19-2006, 12:16 AM
Thanks squeak. You took exactly what I said but made it easier to understand!! My post kinda rambled on.

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 12:17 AM
You're right. It matters for proper gain setting.



Not a whole lot, no.

But, you digress :)

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:21 AM
And one more for Eclipse....55ohm output impedence....errrr wait it's just marketing again :rolleyes:

Who said that?

By the way...Denon decks are low output impedance aswell. In some cases pretty close to that Eclipse output impedance, and in other cases lower ;)


What's Alpine's again??? 55,000???

Not as far as I'm aware. They're not even close to that. Most amplifiers have an input impedance of around 10kohm-22kohm. You may not like Alpine, but they're not stupid enough to produce a HU with a higher output impedance than most input impedances.

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 12:35 AM
Who said that?


I did in an effort to make fun :p: Don't take it literally Squak :)

AFAIK Alpine does construct their HU's with the self-installer in mind, and therefore does have high output impedance for that very reason. I do not know the exact figures. I'm not trashing Alpine at all...I think competition is very healthy and they have done very well in their respective markets.

pwnt by pat
04-19-2006, 12:39 AM
Who cares when you use optical from the hu and can't adjust from the processor (stuck at 4) ;)

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:39 AM
I did in an effort to make fun :p: Don't take it literally Squak :)

Sorry, my computer's sarcasm detector has been on the fritz recently :crazy:


AFAIK Alpine does construct their HU's with the self-installer in mind, and therefore does have high output impedance for that very reason. I do not know the exact figures. I'm not trashing Alpine at all...I think competition is very healthy and they have done very well in their respective markets.

IIRC Alpine's manuals used to list the preamp impedance at or around 10kohm, but "meant" that you shouldn't use their decks with any equipment that had an input impedance of less than 10kohm, not that their preamp's output impedance was that high.

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:41 AM
Who cares when you use optical from the hu and can't adjust from the processor (stuck at 4) ;)

:mad:

Thanks for reminding me that I need to try to fix my deck tommorrow. Hours of aggrevation ahead......

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 12:45 AM
Sorry, my computer's sarcasm detector has been on the fritz recently :crazy:


I recommend the Geek Squad for that ;)

Oh and did you hear this yet fellow Tool fan?? http://www.myspace.com/toolsnewalbum

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 12:46 AM
Who cares when you use optical from the hu and can't adjust from the processor (stuck at 4) ;)

You can't adjust what?? The volume or the gains :confused:

pwnt by pat
04-19-2006, 12:47 AM
:mad:

Thanks for reminding me that I need to try to fix my deck tommorrow. Hours of aggrevation ahead......

ouch. I just refit mine today and fits better than ever. VW golf 4 dashes royally **** *** for securely installing decks. Two zipties and some fun with a dremmel and my deck ain't going anywhere.


You can't adjust what?? The volume or the gains
With head units you have the "choice" of preout voltage. With the h701, you get 4v. Take it or leave it. Plus, there's no traditional "preout voltage" with toslink. ;)

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 12:48 AM
I recommend the Geek Squad for that ;)

Oh and did you hear this yet fellow Tool fan?? http://www.myspace.com/toolsnewalbum

No, I had not. That supposed to be a few tracks from the new album?

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 01:08 AM
No, I had not. That supposed to be a few tracks from the new album?

They are yes...album drops May 2nd and you can preorder it on Amazon for like $10 or something.

Prowler573
04-19-2006, 01:12 AM
They are yes...album drops May 2nd and you can preorder it on Amazon for like $10 or something.

$10.98 to be exact, so says Amazon's site.

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 01:14 AM
$10.98 to be exact, so says Amazon's site.

Thanks Prowler...yes and get SuperSaver shipping too...might as well buy some more **** I don't really need while I'm there too :rolleyes: hmmm...wonder if they have some cheap RCA's...:idea:

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 08:39 PM
They are yes...album drops May 2nd and you can preorder it on Amazon for like $10 or something.

This discussion reminded me to look for Tool tour dates on Ticketmaster....looks like they're going to be within driving distance on 5/13, and tickets go on sale Saturday. :woot: I am so there.

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 09:30 PM
This discussion reminded me to look for Tool tour dates on Ticketmaster....looks like they're going to be within driving distance on 5/13, and tickets go on sale Saturday. :woot: I am so there.

You must be going to the Chicago show...they play up here on 5/11 :peace: It looks like they are playing a bunch of small venues in the next month of May, which is cool for a band of that caliber. Tickets go on sale here at 12:00 pm Sat...and will probably sell out in 1:19 :crap:

OldOneEye
04-19-2006, 10:21 PM
****.. Reminds me, I have to hunt for tickets too. Saw them in Seattle last time around, then flew down and saw them in San Diego (luckily I had to go down for business). Saw APC as well during Lalapalooza too.

Juan



You must be going to the Chicago show...they play up here on 5/11 :peace: It looks like they are playing a bunch of small venues in the next month of May, which is cool for a band of that caliber. Tickets go on sale here at 12:00 pm Sat...and will probably sell out in 1:19 :crap:

FoxPro5
04-19-2006, 10:29 PM
****.. Reminds me, I have to hunt for tickets too. Saw them in Seattle last time around, then flew down and saw them in San Diego (luckily I had to go down for business). Saw APC as well during Lalapalooza too.

Juan

Cool....I've never seen them live...I've heard things though...want to share any stories? :cool:

OldOneEye
04-19-2006, 10:34 PM
Spent most of the night watching people trying to be "subtle" about smoking weed indoors. Maynard has a habit of playing peak a boo. Had the drummer from mushugana (sp?) play a song with that on the tom toms Sheila E style that just rocked. Great visual stuff going on. Seattle had a great crowd, San Diego was pretty **** passive. APC in an outdoor arena just didn't do it for me.

Juan



Cool....I've never seen them live...I've heard things though...want to share any stories? :cool:

squeak9798
04-19-2006, 11:41 PM
You must be going to the Chicago show...

Yup yup.

Never seen Tool live, so I'm pretty stoked. Saw APC a couple years ago when 13th Step came out.